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Interesting Mournghul Stuff Gathered From Irrelevant Isolated Matches

GimblestumpGimblestump Registered Users Posts: 45
edited April 2021 in Balancing Discussions
I investigated Mournghul charge bonus and general damage against a few units. I found the results interesting.
No hypothesis and not enough influence over variables to make it completely indicative of performance, so take it with a couple grains of salt n' pepper. Or warpstone, if that's your thing.
Here's the stuff:

---------------------------


(Initial Charge = damage dealt by charge animation)
(Charge Bonus Damage = damage dealt 13 seconds after initial charge)


Savage Orcs (7290 HP)
Initial Charge- 90-100 damage
Charge Bonus damage- 2000 damage
Other Stuff- After that initial burst, the Savage Orcs punch back and kill the Mournghuls, or route while leaving the Mournghuls crumbling.

Goblins (6720 HP)
Initial Charge- 150-200 damage
Charge Bonus Damage: 1600 damage
Other Stuff: A single unit of Goblins tends to cut off about 1/3 of a Mournghul's health before routing.

Swordsmen (6210)
Initial Charge- 300-400 damage
Charge Bonus Damage- 1900 damage
Other Stuff: Mournghuls tend to win with about a quarter or a third of their health remaining, sometimes less. They are often crumbling at the end of combat.

Spearmen (Shields) (6210)
Initial Charge- 100 damage
Charge Bonus Damage- 1800 damage
Other stuff- Mournghuls tend to lose, which is expected. Spearmen live with a quarter/a third of their health, and around half their models.

Flagellants (6570)
Initial Charge- 200 damage
Charge Bonus Damage- 1800 damage
Other Stuff- Flagellants win consistently, and pretty decisively. They are still chipper enough afterwards to take on a zombie or two.

Chaos Spawn (Chaos) (6576)
Initial Charge- 200 damage
Charge Bonus Damage- 2200 damage
Other stuff- It's pretty close until the Mournghuls start crumbling. Chaos Spawn live with 7-9 models and a third HP.

Chaos Warriors (6750)
Initial Charge- 300 damage
Charge Bonus Damage- 1200 damage
Other Stuff- Chaos warriors win. Around half their models and sub 2000 HP.

Skavenslaves (6480)
Initial Charge- 200 damage
Charge Bonus Damage- 2100 damage
Other Stuff- At around half health, the Skavenslaves still have about 110-120 models. Mournghuls win against one Skavenslave. Mournghuls sometimes lose to three Skavenslaves.


---------------------------


Some Fun Weirdness

- These matches were conducted in the absence of a general and the absence of magic, for both sides.
- The Mournghuls tend to do a lot of health damage, and very little model damage. Swordsmen and Savage Orcs tend to have like, 70 of their models left at half health before they route and/or kill the Mournghuls.
- In one match, the Flagellants still had 75 models at half, and 45 models at around 1770 HP.
- This could be why Mournghuls eat so much damage. They do a lot of paining without much maiming. All the enemy models are still hitting back, and they tend to hit often since Mournghul melee defense is 24.


That's about it. Have fun with the hails of lead, Coast players.

Edited at 4/27/21: changed word "their" to "Mournghul."
Tagged:

Comments

  • WarpDriverWarpDriver Registered Users Posts: 86
    edited April 2021
    Interesting stuff, will have a think about this :] Whilst others and I do use them now and then, they have never been as useful as you'd want them to be, that's for sure.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,468
    one thing to note is how much better the ROR are. ROR is a decent unit. regular mournguls are one of the worst units in the game.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 16,070
    edited April 2021
    I found they only work well with either having multiple units on top of each other or them having scury dog support.

    Therir like most other monsters infantry still need to fight on top of infantey to get max value.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,942
    Its a garbage unit really, like Trash Guards and Animated Hulks.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,468
    Amonkhet said:

    Its a garbage unit really, like Trash Guards and Animated Hulks.

    depth guards at least are able to perform against some units. vs nonAP chaff they are really good - not a big selling point since most things are and opponent isnt likely to let you slaughter their guys without sending some heavy hitters...but they can sometimes perform. mourngul has paid like maybe 30% of its cost for stalk. unless it gets to fight unprotected weak in melee ranged units it will take more damage than it does.
  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 806
    That's quite interesting. I reckon it might have to do with their animations. At first I tought maybe they have too high splash or something, but their splash and weapon strength are pretty comparable to trolls who tend to be reasonably good at killing models (in fact, the Mournghouls should be better at it since they have a sizable bonus vs infantry on top of their WS as well as slightly better melee attack and charge bonus). Then again, the trolls have a slightly better attack intervall which might help.

    So... If each of their attacks can deal a maximum of 120 damage spread across 4 targets, you'd hit each model for a max of 30 with most infantry models ranging from somewhere between 60 and 130 health each. I could imagine that their weird, wide-sweeping arm attacks cause them to not consistently hit the same targets over and over again and instead spread out their damage.

    Then again, they are also monstrous infantry which tends to inherently underperform against regular infantry if not supported properly.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 16,070
    edited April 2021

    That's quite interesting. I reckon it might have to do with their animations. At first I tought maybe they have too high splash or something, but their splash and weapon strength are pretty comparable to trolls who tend to be reasonably good at killing models (in fact, the Mournghouls should be better at it since they have a sizable bonus vs infantry on top of their WS as well as slightly better melee attack and charge bonus). Then again, the trolls have a slightly better attack intervall which might help.

    So... If each of their attacks can deal a maximum of 120 damage spread across 4 targets, you'd hit each model for a max of 30 with most infantry models ranging from somewhere between 60 and 130 health each. I could imagine that their weird, wide-sweeping arm attacks cause them to not consistently hit the same targets over and over again and instead spread out their damage.

    Then again, they are also monstrous infantry which tends to inherently underperform against regular infantry if not supported properly.

    You got it right in the last part. They just need infantry support.

    I am trying to work a coast build theses days with polearm admiral with his better helm of discord item and some mongruls and dogs.

    I am honestly wishing they had the satrosa free company in regular faction
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,308
    edited April 2021
    Did you test them counter charging cavalry?


    Statistically, they have a lot in common with a unit of Vargheist which costs the same. They have 50% more health, half the speed, do not fly and have stalk.

    Compared to Rat Ogres, they are statistically superior +20 anti-infantry... but have 18 less CB. They are slower but have stalk. Mornghuls look pretty strong on paper especially since stalk allows you to dictate their opponent to some extent.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,468
    ive used mourngul haunter and the ROR succesfully on occasion but the basic unit is trash imo
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 1,007
    Like virtually all monstrous infantry, they're not meant to charge into infantry head on without support. They should be fighting on top of zombies. They can also create really nasty blobs. They're designed as an ambush unit though, not a frontline fighter. It's just hard to pull that off in the Coast roster.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 1,093
    Mournghouls are not in a good spot, no way are they worth 1000. The RoR is marginally better (which isn't saying much) due primarily to terror but rampage is pretty detrimental for a unit that squishy and it is exceedingly rare for mournghouls of any type to pay for themselves or provide tactical advantages in other ways.

    I'd say they warrant a -50, if not a -100
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,411

    Mournghouls are not in a good spot, no way are they worth 1000. The RoR is marginally better (which isn't saying much) due primarily to terror but rampage is pretty detrimental for a unit that squishy and it is exceedingly rare for mournghouls of any type to pay for themselves or provide tactical advantages in other ways.

    I'd say they warrant a -50, if not a -100

    note that they are where they are because of previous nerfs which lots of people called for. Which is actually really common with CA. They move too far in the other direction.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 16,070
    just fix hunger, 4hp is not enough.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,518
    No idea where ppl get this absurd nothing oh wow u dont charge inf with monsters, seriously what the heck

    Treekin can go yolo any inf, no problem charging spearman at all. So does minos, kroxigors, trolls, like u know frikking literally all monster inf. U see a greatsword u instant yolo your rat orges on it
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  • griffithxigriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 1,318
    I was testing them after seeing this thread and noticed the mournghuls animations seem to get them surrounded a ton even when I was putting them on top of chaff. I was looking at old video of them fighting to compare and I think previous to the bug that was fixed on infantry mass mournghuls relied a lot on mass knockdowns with their animations to protect them while fighting infantry.

    Now depending on the mass of what they are fighting they don't seem to knockdown as much during their animations so they may take more damage in the middle of infantry than before. The mass fix may have affected them more than some others who didn't do so many knockdowns during sustained melee.
    I also noticed the ROR version has higher splash attack power which might help them a bit more by letting them knockdown more compared to the regular ones.
  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 806

    Mournghouls are not in a good spot, no way are they worth 1000. The RoR is marginally better (which isn't saying much) due primarily to terror but rampage is pretty detrimental for a unit that squishy and it is exceedingly rare for mournghouls of any type to pay for themselves or provide tactical advantages in other ways.

    I'd say they warrant a -50, if not a -100

    I think the issue with them is that their statline doesn't really reflect their performance. Like, if you just look at the unit cards, those stats definitely look like they'd be worth 1000 if you compare them to other monstrous infantry.

    Kroxigors are the same price and have pretty simular stats, with the big difference being that the Kroxigors have significantly more armour whereas the Mournghouls have Stalk, Vanguard Deployment and the Hunger (and also not rampaging) as well as slightly higher weapon strength, health and charge bonus. Granted, the Krox also have way higher leadership, but that's mostly because Undead Units have lower leadership across the board.

    I'd say if they were to get an animation overhaul and maybe a slight speed boost (it really seems like they should technically be quicker than they currently are, maybe at 55-60) that would probably be enough.
  • WarpDriverWarpDriver Registered Users Posts: 86
    Yeah, whilst gold changes are much needed, one or more other attributes need to be changed to make this stunning unit decently useful. Remaining a bit niche pick shouldn't be a problem, they just have issues getting to where they need to be and surviving long enough.

    The haunter on the other hand seems to be really quite good in certain MUs, e.g. slowing beastmen cav, and can destroy characters like Morghur with ease sometimes.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,468

    Mournghouls are not in a good spot, no way are they worth 1000. The RoR is marginally better (which isn't saying much) due primarily to terror but rampage is pretty detrimental for a unit that squishy and it is exceedingly rare for mournghouls of any type to pay for themselves or provide tactical advantages in other ways.

    I'd say they warrant a -50, if not a -100

    I think the issue with them is that their statline doesn't really reflect their performance. Like, if you just look at the unit cards, those stats definitely look like they'd be worth 1000 if you compare them to other monstrous infantry.

    Kroxigors are the same price and have pretty simular stats, with the big difference being that the Kroxigors have significantly more armour whereas the Mournghouls have Stalk, Vanguard Deployment and the Hunger (and also not rampaging) as well as slightly higher weapon strength, health and charge bonus. Granted, the Krox also have way higher leadership, but that's mostly because Undead Units have lower leadership across the board.

    I'd say if they were to get an animation overhaul and maybe a slight speed boost (it really seems like they should technically be quicker than they currently are, maybe at 55-60) that would probably be enough.

    thats an interesting comparison and fighting each other haunters kinda hold their own - still lose but vanguard and stalk make up for the slight loss in combatpower
    The problem is the armor/defense though. the kind of armies you'd want to use them against is primarily ranged/chaff and with no way of defending themselves they are absolutely useless vs chaff.
    To fix them id look to sisters of slaughter, so lose the aniinfantry, +15 MD and +10 speed or so. with medium MD rather than high being the price it pays for stalk
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,180
    edited April 2021
    eumaies said:

    Mournghouls are not in a good spot, no way are they worth 1000. The RoR is marginally better (which isn't saying much) due primarily to terror but rampage is pretty detrimental for a unit that squishy and it is exceedingly rare for mournghouls of any type to pay for themselves or provide tactical advantages in other ways.

    I'd say they warrant a -50, if not a -100

    note that they are where they are because of previous nerfs which lots of people called for. Which is actually really common with CA. They move too far in the other direction.
    Tbf, vp previously was toxic as hell and i would venture to say that was more toxic than current gs

    Mournghul was disgusting to deal with because you have to focus your build so heavily against vp gun line. Mournghul vanguard just wreck these builds.

    So i would say CA did the right thing, it was just that the massive zombine gub nerf that they did deserve, they forgot to recompense the melee unit enough
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,180
    Edit: i meant a few mournghul in a reg vp build not a whole mornghul vanguard build
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,302
    yst said:

    No idea where ppl get this absurd nothing oh wow u dont charge inf with monsters, seriously what the heck

    Treekin can go yolo any inf, no problem charging spearman at all. So does minos, kroxigors, trolls, like u know frikking literally all monster inf. U see a greatsword u instant yolo your rat orges on it

    To be fair, treekin used to lose to HE spearmen 1v1. Even while countering them with their high armour and the like. I haven't tested them after the last changes.

    In general, any monster infantry loses v cheaper infantry if their models get surrounded by infantry models.

  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 1,007
    yst said:

    No idea where ppl get this absurd nothing oh wow u dont charge inf with monsters, seriously what the heck

    Treekin can go yolo any inf, no problem charging spearman at all. So does minos, kroxigors, trolls, like u know frikking literally all monster inf. U see a greatsword u instant yolo your rat orges on it

    Most of those units don't trade effectively with good infantry, unless they're ideal targets, like Kroxigors or the anti-inf minos on armored non-anti-large infantry. Treekin absolutely don't trade well when charging into spears of almost any kind. They just take a long time to die. Trolls get routed very fast by any infantry that deals high damage. Rat ogres into greatswords is a really good engagement, of course, but I actually wonder if the ogres win that without cycle charging. I expect not.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,468
    there's a few really good monstrous infantry but generally i always found the lacklustre. i think basically their selling point is that if they manage to surround a single entity they are about the best counter there is, but generally they do pretty badly against infantry and a lot of other stuff,
    rat ogre vs greatswords isnt a very good match, they win if you mix clanrats with rat ogres to freely cyclecharge, but then clanrats win that fight gold for gold as well....

    Anyway, to begin with monstrous infantry arent towers of combat power without tweaking performance. losing armor to gain stalk and making mournghuls even worse in combat does them no favor
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,865
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 7,159

    Hunger should go up to 6/hps

    Hunger is on a few other units as well... are you suggesting the same for them?
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 811
    Actually the only reason treekin do better is because of high armor. Trolls at least the armored variants(stone,ice and chaos)still do really well vs non AP infantry.

    Personally still stand by that ethereal units are just kinda bad with inflation of magic weapons cross factions.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 7,159

    Personally still stand by that ethereal units are just kinda bad with inflation of magic weapons cross factions.

    Mournguls aren't Ethereal... so stand behind it all you want but its not relevant.

  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,468
    ethereals are kinda bad regardless of magic or not. they tend to lose fights vs infantry of same tier...losing half your models and hitpoint isnt really a good trade for treating all damage as nonAP
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,865
    OdTengri said:

    Hunger should go up to 6/hps

    Hunger is on a few other units as well... are you suggesting the same for them?
    yes
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