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  • MisterSquid#9555MisterSquid#9555 Florida, USARegistered Users Posts: 2,137
    Will have to read this as soon as I get the chance!
    Remember: there's no reason to get angry on the forums. Be polite and respectful towards other people's opinions, even if you disagree.

    Let Slip the Dogs of War - A fanmade Campaign Pack concept
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/303462/let-loose-the-dogs-of-war-a-fanmade-campaign-pack-concept
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 6,502
    I really hope the Sentinels and Pigbarter get proper attention.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,622
    Thanks bro. Now I have something to read for today!
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,622
    JungleElf said:

    I really hope the Sentinels and Pigbarter get proper attention.

    Both would be perfect start positions for DoW. Some bigger human presence in the Dark Lands would really spice up the map.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • sykall#1105sykall#1105 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,002
    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • Neodeinos#5871Neodeinos#5871 Registered Users Posts: 15,848
    ArneSo said:

    JungleElf said:

    I really hope the Sentinels and Pigbarter get proper attention.

    Both would be perfect start positions for DoW. Some bigger human presence in the Dark Lands would really spice up the map.
    And there's also Shang-Yang in Cathay as a possible start. We can even see it on the map from the trailer.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,622
    Neodeinos said:

    ArneSo said:

    JungleElf said:

    I really hope the Sentinels and Pigbarter get proper attention.

    Both would be perfect start positions for DoW. Some bigger human presence in the Dark Lands would really spice up the map.
    And there's also Shang-Yang in Cathay as a possible start. We can even see it on the map from the trailer.
    Yap. Throw in another start in Ind and we have our 4 start positions for the WH3 only Campaign.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,622
    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    Aren't Ogres also big traders?
    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    In WH it doesn't work like that. Traders travel from the Old World to Cathay and Ind and vice versa. There is no middle market. You just have very long Caravan routes.

    Volksgrad in Kislev is the last (or first) station of the eastern trade route and has a huge cathayan Market. It is also the big station from where all the Caravans start into the Dark Lands.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • sykall#1105sykall#1105 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,002
    ArneSo said:

    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    Aren't Ogres also big traders?
    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    In WH it doesn't work like that. Traders travel from the Old World to Cathay and Ind and vice versa. There is no middle market. You just have very long Caravan routes.

    Volksgrad in Kislev is the last (or first) station of the eastern trade route and has a huge cathayan Market. It is also the big station from where all the Caravans start into the Dark Lands.
    Yes in warhammer it works like that. Appearently. But it is equally ludricous and non viable as the dwafen sex ratios. Especially without necessary stops, oasis or infrastructure or protected areas where you can rest, reform, regroup etc. Each trade journey would be akin to a military expedition amd equally fickle and risky. And whenever military costs outweigh profits, the operation becomes worthless to persue. Which is very easily the case on such a trade. After all profit is all that counts, not glory or other imagiative reasons to keep risking money and your life. Imagine crossing all these dangers and distance, only to be out of money at the target market, or its empty or contains product of bad quality, or noone wamts your goods, as it is a completly foreign market and you do not know what they want. Even if you make it back you are ruined.
    And on return your caravan is a huge: "raid here" sign, as it is far easier to attack a caravan compared to a ship for example. And much more expansive to equipt than a ship and crew. Consider costs for protection, for crew, tolls, risk of banditry and many more factors. For a ship you need maybe 15 people to crew the vessel, plus replacements in case of death, and provisions. Piracy and storms are a risk there too, but MUCH smaller than the risks and costs of land trade. Hence why no european sent caravans to china, especially not after the sea route was discovered, and hence why local traders who had a much smaller risk attached to their buisness were the main drivers of transcontinental trade and why marco polo was the huge exception.

    If warhammers economics are based on hard cash values and not on John Wick economics, no trader would be willing to invest in such a ludricously bad and risky trade. Russian roulette has dream chances of "sucess". Even going even is hard to achive. Or coming back alive or even intact. And ogres, who just offer dubious protection services but do not trade themselves, are just not sufficent to make this viable.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 6,502
    sykall said:

    ArneSo said:

    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    Aren't Ogres also big traders?
    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    In WH it doesn't work like that. Traders travel from the Old World to Cathay and Ind and vice versa. There is no middle market. You just have very long Caravan routes.

    Volksgrad in Kislev is the last (or first) station of the eastern trade route and has a huge cathayan Market. It is also the big station from where all the Caravans start into the Dark Lands.
    Yes in warhammer it works like that. Appearently. But it is equally ludricous and non viable as the dwafen sex ratios. Especially without necessary stops, oasis or infrastructure or protected areas where you can rest, reform, regroup etc. Each trade journey would be akin to a military expedition amd equally fickle and risky. And whenever military costs outweigh profits, the operation becomes worthless to persue. Which is very easily the case on such a trade. After all profit is all that counts, not glory or other imagiative reasons to keep risking money and your life. Imagine crossing all these dangers and distance, only to be out of money at the target market, or its empty or contains product of bad quality, or noone wamts your goods, as it is a completly foreign market and you do not know what they want. Even if you make it back you are ruined.
    And on return your caravan is a huge: "raid here" sign, as it is far easier to attack a caravan compared to a ship for example. And much more expansive to equipt than a ship and crew. Consider costs for protection, for crew, tolls, risk of banditry and many more factors. For a ship you need maybe 15 people to crew the vessel, plus replacements in case of death, and provisions. Piracy and storms are a risk there too, but MUCH smaller than the risks and costs of land trade. Hence why no european sent caravans to china, especially not after the sea route was discovered, and hence why local traders who had a much smaller risk attached to their buisness were the main drivers of transcontinental trade and why marco polo was the huge exception.

    If warhammers economics are based on hard cash values and not on John Wick economics, no trader would be willing to invest in such a ludricously bad and risky trade. Russian roulette has dream chances of "sucess". Even going even is hard to achive. Or coming back alive or even intact. And ogres, who just offer dubious protection services but do not trade themselves, are just not sufficent to make this viable.
    You're absolutely right on this, realistically and historically speaking. No denying that. We just have to handwave the way Warhammer does it, because they didn't go that road.
  • sykall#1105sykall#1105 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,002
    JungleElf said:

    sykall said:

    ArneSo said:

    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    Aren't Ogres also big traders?
    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    In WH it doesn't work like that. Traders travel from the Old World to Cathay and Ind and vice versa. There is no middle market. You just have very long Caravan routes.

    Volksgrad in Kislev is the last (or first) station of the eastern trade route and has a huge cathayan Market. It is also the big station from where all the Caravans start into the Dark Lands.
    Yes in warhammer it works like that. Appearently. But it is equally ludricous and non viable as the dwafen sex ratios. Especially without necessary stops, oasis or infrastructure or protected areas where you can rest, reform, regroup etc. Each trade journey would be akin to a military expedition amd equally fickle and risky. And whenever military costs outweigh profits, the operation becomes worthless to persue. Which is very easily the case on such a trade. After all profit is all that counts, not glory or other imagiative reasons to keep risking money and your life. Imagine crossing all these dangers and distance, only to be out of money at the target market, or its empty or contains product of bad quality, or noone wamts your goods, as it is a completly foreign market and you do not know what they want. Even if you make it back you are ruined.
    And on return your caravan is a huge: "raid here" sign, as it is far easier to attack a caravan compared to a ship for example. And much more expansive to equipt than a ship and crew. Consider costs for protection, for crew, tolls, risk of banditry and many more factors. For a ship you need maybe 15 people to crew the vessel, plus replacements in case of death, and provisions. Piracy and storms are a risk there too, but MUCH smaller than the risks and costs of land trade. Hence why no european sent caravans to china, especially not after the sea route was discovered, and hence why local traders who had a much smaller risk attached to their buisness were the main drivers of transcontinental trade and why marco polo was the huge exception.

    If warhammers economics are based on hard cash values and not on John Wick economics, no trader would be willing to invest in such a ludricously bad and risky trade. Russian roulette has dream chances of "sucess". Even going even is hard to achive. Or coming back alive or even intact. And ogres, who just offer dubious protection services but do not trade themselves, are just not sufficent to make this viable.
    You're absolutely right on this, realistically and historically speaking. No denying that. We just have to handwave the way Warhammer does it, because they didn't go that road.
    Yes warhammer is not meant to be realistic (dwarfen sex ratios cough). However if you try to handwave a problem of your worldbuilding away, you should at least put in additional effort to make it workable and not create more questions. (Another example are beastmen females, whose handwaved explanation creates way more questions than they provide answers).

    My approach of having a faction bridging the dwarfen realms and Ind would also mostly primarly be an act of handwaving for the most part. But in my opinion there needs to be something else then pigbarter in my opinion to do bridge dwarfs, ind and ogres. Be it a new faction to give the darklands more content, or be it colonies or merchant cities of tilean, dwarfen or asurian origin. Something to make such a long trade route viable.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • MonerisMoneris Registered Users Posts: 351
    Tradelord Greasus Tribestealer, leader of the Ogres, seems a lot more focused in commerce than previous tyrants.

    He actively engages in trade, making deals with humans semi-regularly.

    You could also add some Cathay and Elven trade posts as they do roam the area.
  • PoorManatee6197#6481PoorManatee6197#6481 Registered Users Posts: 2,546
    sykall said:

    ArneSo said:

    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    Aren't Ogres also big traders?
    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    In WH it doesn't work like that. Traders travel from the Old World to Cathay and Ind and vice versa. There is no middle market. You just have very long Caravan routes.

    Volksgrad in Kislev is the last (or first) station of the eastern trade route and has a huge cathayan Market. It is also the big station from where all the Caravans start into the Dark Lands.
    Yes in warhammer it works like that. Appearently. But it is equally ludricous and non viable as the dwafen sex ratios. Especially without necessary stops, oasis or infrastructure or protected areas where you can rest, reform, regroup etc. Each trade journey would be akin to a military expedition amd equally fickle and risky. And whenever military costs outweigh profits, the operation becomes worthless to persue. Which is very easily the case on such a trade. After all profit is all that counts, not glory or other imagiative reasons to keep risking money and your life. Imagine crossing all these dangers and distance, only to be out of money at the target market, or its empty or contains product of bad quality, or noone wamts your goods, as it is a completly foreign market and you do not know what they want. Even if you make it back you are ruined.
    And on return your caravan is a huge: "raid here" sign, as it is far easier to attack a caravan compared to a ship for example. And much more expansive to equipt than a ship and crew. Consider costs for protection, for crew, tolls, risk of banditry and many more factors. For a ship you need maybe 15 people to crew the vessel, plus replacements in case of death, and provisions. Piracy and storms are a risk there too, but MUCH smaller than the risks and costs of land trade. Hence why no european sent caravans to china, especially not after the sea route was discovered, and hence why local traders who had a much smaller risk attached to their buisness were the main drivers of transcontinental trade and why marco polo was the huge exception.

    If warhammers economics are based on hard cash values and not on John Wick economics, no trader would be willing to invest in such a ludricously bad and risky trade. Russian roulette has dream chances of "sucess". Even going even is hard to achive. Or coming back alive or even intact. And ogres, who just offer dubious protection services but do not trade themselves, are just not sufficent to make this viable.
    While you are totally right, unlike in the real world the sea route is also full of dangers, giants marine monsters, dark elf slavers, pirates of all kinds...

    Not to mention that the high elves try to monopolize all sea trade and will stop any merchant ship they see trying to go to the east.
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  • xBlood_Raven#5120xBlood_Raven#5120 Registered Users Posts: 964
    My guess is that these trade routes will be a major objective of the Dogs of War/Southern Realms as they have a whole section in their book.

    Gives them something to fight for as well.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited May 2021

    My guess is that these trade routes will be a major objective of the Dogs of War/Southern Realms as they have a whole section in their book.

    Gives them something to fight for as well.

    Which is, honestly, the most boring option they could choose. A road.

    Something like Fozzrik's Flying Fortress makes substantially more sense.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • sykall#1105sykall#1105 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,002
    edited May 2021

    sykall said:

    ArneSo said:

    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    Aren't Ogres also big traders?
    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    In WH it doesn't work like that. Traders travel from the Old World to Cathay and Ind and vice versa. There is no middle market. You just have very long Caravan routes.

    Volksgrad in Kislev is the last (or first) station of the eastern trade route and has a huge cathayan Market. It is also the big station from where all the Caravans start into the Dark Lands.
    Yes in warhammer it works like that. Appearently. But it is equally ludricous and non viable as the dwafen sex ratios. Especially without necessary stops, oasis or infrastructure or protected areas where you can rest, reform, regroup etc. Each trade journey would be akin to a military expedition amd equally fickle and risky. And whenever military costs outweigh profits, the operation becomes worthless to persue. Which is very easily the case on such a trade. After all profit is all that counts, not glory or other imagiative reasons to keep risking money and your life. Imagine crossing all these dangers and distance, only to be out of money at the target market, or its empty or contains product of bad quality, or noone wamts your goods, as it is a completly foreign market and you do not know what they want. Even if you make it back you are ruined.
    And on return your caravan is a huge: "raid here" sign, as it is far easier to attack a caravan compared to a ship for example. And much more expansive to equipt than a ship and crew. Consider costs for protection, for crew, tolls, risk of banditry and many more factors. For a ship you need maybe 15 people to crew the vessel, plus replacements in case of death, and provisions. Piracy and storms are a risk there too, but MUCH smaller than the risks and costs of land trade. Hence why no european sent caravans to china, especially not after the sea route was discovered, and hence why local traders who had a much smaller risk attached to their buisness were the main drivers of transcontinental trade and why marco polo was the huge exception.

    If warhammers economics are based on hard cash values and not on John Wick economics, no trader would be willing to invest in such a ludricously bad and risky trade. Russian roulette has dream chances of "sucess". Even going even is hard to achive. Or coming back alive or even intact. And ogres, who just offer dubious protection services but do not trade themselves, are just not sufficent to make this viable.
    While you are totally right, unlike in the real world the sea route is also full of dangers, giants marine monsters, dark elf slavers, pirates of all kinds...

    Not to mention that the high elves try to monopolize all sea trade and will stop any merchant ship they see trying to go to the east.
    Yeah this is true for the warhammer worlds sea travel. Though compared to the land travel cost/risk/profit ratio this would still be much less expensive and much more economicly viable.

    However most Old Worlders cannot engage in the sea trade, as you mentioned. They are either unable to circumnavigate the southlands or are hindered by this due to HE and Arabyian dominance. (Cathay once wanted to conquer the Southlands and Araby to get their share of this sea trade).
    So going by land, as so many did, could be seen as profitable, IF all the other land travel problems would not be so much worse.
    The current warhammer situation would reflect the trade dominance with Asia of portugal and the VOC, when these two entities had more or less monopolized this trade. At that point the silk route was still "open" but rapidly loosing to importance. And one of the main drivers to go east by ship was, that the silk route was closed for europeans or its products becoming way too expensive. Kinda like how things would be in the warhammer setting.

    If Warhammer were to move forward in the timeline, I would like to see a war between Asur, Araby and the southern realms & Marienburg e.g. over rights of shipping and trade, to break this monopol or to tighten it. Multiple wars have been fought for this very reason after all. Not as flashy as a fight between good and evil, but an easy way to have a "good" guy war covering multiple continents.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
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  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,622
    sykall said:

    ArneSo said:

    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    Aren't Ogres also big traders?
    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    In WH it doesn't work like that. Traders travel from the Old World to Cathay and Ind and vice versa. There is no middle market. You just have very long Caravan routes.

    Volksgrad in Kislev is the last (or first) station of the eastern trade route and has a huge cathayan Market. It is also the big station from where all the Caravans start into the Dark Lands.
    Yes in warhammer it works like that. Appearently. But it is equally ludricous and non viable as the dwafen sex ratios. Especially without necessary stops, oasis or infrastructure or protected areas where you can rest, reform, regroup etc. Each trade journey would be akin to a military expedition amd equally fickle and risky. And whenever military costs outweigh profits, the operation becomes worthless to persue. Which is very easily the case on such a trade. After all profit is all that counts, not glory or other imagiative reasons to keep risking money and your life. Imagine crossing all these dangers and distance, only to be out of money at the target market, or its empty or contains product of bad quality, or noone wamts your goods, as it is a completly foreign market and you do not know what they want. Even if you make it back you are ruined.
    And on return your caravan is a huge: "raid here" sign, as it is far easier to attack a caravan compared to a ship for example. And much more expansive to equipt than a ship and crew. Consider costs for protection, for crew, tolls, risk of banditry and many more factors. For a ship you need maybe 15 people to crew the vessel, plus replacements in case of death, and provisions. Piracy and storms are a risk there too, but MUCH smaller than the risks and costs of land trade. Hence why no european sent caravans to china, especially not after the sea route was discovered, and hence why local traders who had a much smaller risk attached to their buisness were the main drivers of transcontinental trade and why marco polo was the huge exception.

    If warhammers economics are based on hard cash values and not on John Wick economics, no trader would be willing to invest in such a ludricously bad and risky trade. Russian roulette has dream chances of "sucess". Even going even is hard to achive. Or coming back alive or even intact. And ogres, who just offer dubious protection services but do not trade themselves, are just not sufficent to make this viable.
    You are definitely right but I think we shouldn’t take it to seriously in WH because it’s still WH if you get what I mean.

    I think the Sentinels and Pigbarter work exactly like real world Caravan stations. They are places where traders and travellers can resupply and buy fresh guards. Sell some stuff on the huge market. Wouldn’t be surprised if we will get more trade posts like that on the map.

    And the OKs also kinda work as a Toll and Trade station for caravans. At least some of the tribes are open for that. That’s actually how Greasus got so incredibly rich.

    And yeah securing these long and super dangerous Trade routes to the east is basically the main purpose of the DoW.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,622
    sykall said:

    sykall said:

    ArneSo said:

    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    Aren't Ogres also big traders?
    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    In WH it doesn't work like that. Traders travel from the Old World to Cathay and Ind and vice versa. There is no middle market. You just have very long Caravan routes.

    Volksgrad in Kislev is the last (or first) station of the eastern trade route and has a huge cathayan Market. It is also the big station from where all the Caravans start into the Dark Lands.
    Yes in warhammer it works like that. Appearently. But it is equally ludricous and non viable as the dwafen sex ratios. Especially without necessary stops, oasis or infrastructure or protected areas where you can rest, reform, regroup etc. Each trade journey would be akin to a military expedition amd equally fickle and risky. And whenever military costs outweigh profits, the operation becomes worthless to persue. Which is very easily the case on such a trade. After all profit is all that counts, not glory or other imagiative reasons to keep risking money and your life. Imagine crossing all these dangers and distance, only to be out of money at the target market, or its empty or contains product of bad quality, or noone wamts your goods, as it is a completly foreign market and you do not know what they want. Even if you make it back you are ruined.
    And on return your caravan is a huge: "raid here" sign, as it is far easier to attack a caravan compared to a ship for example. And much more expansive to equipt than a ship and crew. Consider costs for protection, for crew, tolls, risk of banditry and many more factors. For a ship you need maybe 15 people to crew the vessel, plus replacements in case of death, and provisions. Piracy and storms are a risk there too, but MUCH smaller than the risks and costs of land trade. Hence why no european sent caravans to china, especially not after the sea route was discovered, and hence why local traders who had a much smaller risk attached to their buisness were the main drivers of transcontinental trade and why marco polo was the huge exception.

    If warhammers economics are based on hard cash values and not on John Wick economics, no trader would be willing to invest in such a ludricously bad and risky trade. Russian roulette has dream chances of "sucess". Even going even is hard to achive. Or coming back alive or even intact. And ogres, who just offer dubious protection services but do not trade themselves, are just not sufficent to make this viable.
    While you are totally right, unlike in the real world the sea route is also full of dangers, giants marine monsters, dark elf slavers, pirates of all kinds...

    Not to mention that the high elves try to monopolize all sea trade and will stop any merchant ship they see trying to go to the east.
    If Warhammer were to move forward in the timeline, I would like to see a war between Asur, Araby and the southern realms & Marienburg e.g. over rights of shipping and trade, to break this monopol or to tighten it. Multiple wars have been fought for this very reason after all. Not as flashy as a fight between good and evil, but an easy way to have a "good" guy war covering multiple continents.
    Wouldn’t be surprised if trade to the East gets explored a bit more with WH3 and ToW.

    Could definitely see some not-VOC trade posts from Marienburg in Ind and Khuresh.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • sykall#1105sykall#1105 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,002
    edited May 2021
    ArneSo said:

    sykall said:

    ArneSo said:

    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    Aren't Ogres also big traders?
    sykall said:

    I like silk route style traderoutes, however its warhammer equivalent is not viable.
    Trade was not done by transcontinetal merchants going from europe to china, but rather by local merchants bringing goods from one market to the next.
    However warhammer is missing any civilization between Dawi and Ind. Well chaos dwarfs and ogres yes, but both are not good merchants. Or at least not peaceful merchants. And even with their territory too many dangerous spots exist.

    One important condition for the silk route were stable and safe travelling conditions. When it was first "opened" you could walk from the atlantic to the pacific and just cross four countries, as Parthia and another nation east bridged China and Rome together. When wars/banditry or else disrupted this zone the road was "closed", sometimes for centuries. Most famously the mongolian empire created the safespace and infrastructure that allowed marco polos travels.

    However there is no safe space or even proper resting places I am aware of in warhammers darklands. Even the eastern WEM are dangerous, though thus far one could argue that the dwarfs could provide secure spaces and necessary infrastructure. And a merchant may pay ogres, however most of them live on the other side of the dark lands, and their loyalty is also dubious, as they are ruled by theor stomachs more than by gold or contracts.
    And the expenses to hire and feed ogres, or to buy a whole army (cause you need one of you go there) would eat up all potential profits. Not to mention the high risk of failure, both financial and regarding your own life.

    What the warhammer world would need for a kinda working traderoute would be some civilized realm that can safley bridge the dwafen realms and Ind. Where old worlders can sell their goods, and buy new ones from local merchants bought from indian traders. So an intermediary. From there carawans could still higher ogres as escorts with they want to go through the mountains of mourne as well.

    However in the current form the ivory route is just not feasible.

    (I once made a faction specificly to bridge ind and the dwarfen realms, based on Persia and Carthage. More can be found with the link of my signature)

    In WH it doesn't work like that. Traders travel from the Old World to Cathay and Ind and vice versa. There is no middle market. You just have very long Caravan routes.

    Volksgrad in Kislev is the last (or first) station of the eastern trade route and has a huge cathayan Market. It is also the big station from where all the Caravans start into the Dark Lands.
    Yes in warhammer it works like that. Appearently. But it is equally ludricous and non viable as the dwafen sex ratios. Especially without necessary stops, oasis or infrastructure or protected areas where you can rest, reform, regroup etc. Each trade journey would be akin to a military expedition amd equally fickle and risky. And whenever military costs outweigh profits, the operation becomes worthless to persue. Which is very easily the case on such a trade. After all profit is all that counts, not glory or other imagiative reasons to keep risking money and your life. Imagine crossing all these dangers and distance, only to be out of money at the target market, or its empty or contains product of bad quality, or noone wamts your goods, as it is a completly foreign market and you do not know what they want. Even if you make it back you are ruined.
    And on return your caravan is a huge: "raid here" sign, as it is far easier to attack a caravan compared to a ship for example. And much more expansive to equipt than a ship and crew. Consider costs for protection, for crew, tolls, risk of banditry and many more factors. For a ship you need maybe 15 people to crew the vessel, plus replacements in case of death, and provisions. Piracy and storms are a risk there too, but MUCH smaller than the risks and costs of land trade. Hence why no european sent caravans to china, especially not after the sea route was discovered, and hence why local traders who had a much smaller risk attached to their buisness were the main drivers of transcontinental trade and why marco polo was the huge exception.

    If warhammers economics are based on hard cash values and not on John Wick economics, no trader would be willing to invest in such a ludricously bad and risky trade. Russian roulette has dream chances of "sucess". Even going even is hard to achive. Or coming back alive or even intact. And ogres, who just offer dubious protection services but do not trade themselves, are just not sufficent to make this viable.
    You are definitely right but I think we shouldn’t take it to seriously in WH because it’s still WH if you get what I mean.

    I think the Sentinels and Pigbarter work exactly like real world Caravan stations. They are places where traders and travellers can resupply and buy fresh guards. Sell some stuff on the huge market. Wouldn’t be surprised if we will get more trade posts like that on the map.

    And the OKs also kinda work as a Toll and Trade station for caravans. At least some of the tribes are open for that. That’s actually how Greasus got so incredibly rich.

    And yeah securing these long and super dangerous Trade routes to the east is basically the main purpose of the DoW.
    I know that warhammer is not meant to be realistic in many aspects. What bothers me, is that GW took their care fleshing out the ogres and structuring them into impacting this traderoute. But in all this they forgot the very last step needed to make this working. Nameley that you need a civilized realm or just a string of cities, or something else that allows for merchants or goods to safley travel from the dwarfen lands to Ind. Just something, anything coherent. Not just empty wilderness and then pigbarter and then more wilderness full of marauders, hostile ogres, monsters, hobgoblins, kurgan marauders, chaos dwarf slavers, monsters, hostile weather and more wilderness.

    The ogres position of gatekeepers and guides towards Cathay via the mountains of mourne would go untouched by this. Indeed it would help to flesh out ogres even more, as they would have new interaction partners as neighbours close to their home realm. Someone to form unique relations to. Maybe even different friend/foe relations depending on the tribe in question. And it would help filling the dark lands, who are a very empty region, despite being pased on the middle east and transoxania. And help the chaos dwarfs as well.

    GW invested so much energy and worldbuilding already into ogres and the ivory route, that it is ludicrious to not put in some high elven outpost, tilean colonies or anything there except just pigbarter, one city in the middle of nowhere. Even a string of multiple pigbarters may have been enough.

    From my perspective it is like having a roadbuilder making several kilometres of road and then having him say: "Oh 5 o'clock. End of my shift." Going home and never finishing the last 2 metre of road needed to connect it to the rest of the highway. It is so close to be a cool feature of the warhammer world, but just this tiny last step has been forgotten. And this bothers me.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • Mr_Finley7#4571Mr_Finley7#4571 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,415
    I love that halflings and ogres bro out. one of the best pieces of late era warhammer lore to be written.
  • MonerisMoneris Registered Users Posts: 351
    Found a little bit of text from the Ogres army book

    "An Ogre tribe can subsist on the sacking of a single great caravan for a full month, and the subsequent feast is often a week-long orgy of food and drink that is heard for miles around. Sadly, these occasions are becoming rare, as the iron rule of Tradelord Greasus Goldtooth the Overtyrant forces the tribes into a new era of mercenary activity and cooperation with the human race. Slowly but surely the Ogre kingdoms have become aware that gold is just as valuable as meat, and far more likely to last the winter."

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