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Who do you really want as a Preorder bonus?

1235

Comments

  • DeadpoolSWDeadpoolSW Registered Users Posts: 2,669
    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    saweendra said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    yes that would be enough to get 4LL DoW pack but no way in Hell they can do CD or Ok on that budget plus it would be stupid since those would sell really well as DlC
    You don't know what they can do with 'that budget' because you don't know the budget. Neither do I

    Given how good have been the sales, the budget for the preorder could be massive. Preorders are done to get more people buying the game, they are not supposed to be bad. The budget should be massive

    And yes, the good stuff could be kept for years and be sold as a DLC instead of for free. That's called cash grabbing. It may happen, but I don't wish it

    I wish to get Chaos Dwarfs at top quality the sooner the better, and for free, since this is a wish. And I don't wish a low level preorder. That's it

    I struggle to understand why people here is so extremely pessimistic about Game 3, so far I am very happy with what CA has done, in general
    If lots of people are buying the game, the pre-order budget is more likely to go down than up- it's an incentive to get people to buy the game. If people are buying it, the incentive is less important, not more important.

    At the end of the day, CA (and more importantly, GW/Sega) are companies, so profit is the most important. Selling the Chaos Dwarfs as a campaign pack makes them more money than giving it away as a pre-order. Full stop.
    More sense for them, no doubt

    But it is a bad thing for us, isn't it? Asking for money for something that could be possible to get for free? Preorder = day 0 DLC?

    I get why people expect this to happen. What buffles me to no end is people seemingly wanting it. Or saying that they will inmediately de-preorder the game if the preorder is a big faction, without seeing how it is done

    To the people who disagree with me saying 'I want Chaos Dwarfs at top quality, making them justice, the sooner the better and for free'... what part do you disagree with?

    If you could pick between top quality Chaos Dwarfs for free and the same quality Chaos Dwarfs as a 2023 expensive DLC, will you actually want the second option?? For real??
    If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Festag.

    Of course I want Chaos Dwarfs for free with all their units, in the best state of any race yet.

    I'd also like Araby, Albion, Amazons, Halflings, Nagash, Hobgoblin Khanate, Nippon, Ind and Khuresh.
    I'd also like all existing and future races to have all the characters and units they need.
    And I'd like it all for free.

    But that isn't going to happen, so I'll take them as an expensive DLC, as that's the only circumstance I can imagine in which the Chaos Dwarfs get most/all the units I want them to have.
    Nagash will rule again!

    Justice for Chaos Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdoms, Araby, Albion, Amazons, Halflings, Nippon, Ind, Khuresh & the Hobgoblin Khanate!
  • veresh1989veresh1989 Russia, Saint-PetersburgRegistered Users Posts: 4,451
    Eonir is the best choice
  • DrazhoaththeAshenDrazhoaththeAshen Registered Users Posts: 279

    Eonir is the best choice

    Would I be willing to offer up vile and contemptible elves so that we might all bask in the glory of his incandescent majesty, the blazing bull of the blasted wastes, our father of darkness, Hashut might live through a full campaign pack DLC. Categorically yes.

    Are they the best choice? Categorically no.

    Keep calm and praise Hashut
    Beautiful artwork by Matt Hancox
  • csm001csm001 Registered Users Posts: 53
    edited May 7

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    saweendra said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    yes that would be enough to get 4LL DoW pack but no way in Hell they can do CD or Ok on that budget plus it would be stupid since those would sell really well as DlC
    You don't know what they can do with 'that budget' because you don't know the budget. Neither do I

    Given how good have been the sales, the budget for the preorder could be massive. Preorders are done to get more people buying the game, they are not supposed to be bad. The budget should be massive

    And yes, the good stuff could be kept for years and be sold as a DLC instead of for free. That's called cash grabbing. It may happen, but I don't wish it

    I wish to get Chaos Dwarfs at top quality the sooner the better, and for free, since this is a wish. And I don't wish a low level preorder. That's it

    I struggle to understand why people here is so extremely pessimistic about Game 3, so far I am very happy with what CA has done, in general
    If lots of people are buying the game, the pre-order budget is more likely to go down than up- it's an incentive to get people to buy the game. If people are buying it, the incentive is less important, not more important.

    At the end of the day, CA (and more importantly, GW/Sega) are companies, so profit is the most important. Selling the Chaos Dwarfs as a campaign pack makes them more money than giving it away as a pre-order. Full stop.
    More sense for them, no doubt

    But it is a bad thing for us, isn't it? Asking for money for something that could be possible to get for free? Preorder = day 0 DLC?

    I get why people expect this to happen. What buffles me to no end is people seemingly wanting it. Or saying that they will inmediately de-preorder the game if the preorder is a big faction, without seeing how it is done

    To the people who disagree with me saying 'I want Chaos Dwarfs at top quality, making them justice, the sooner the better and for free'... what part do you disagree with?

    If you could pick between top quality Chaos Dwarfs for free and the same quality Chaos Dwarfs as a 2023 expensive DLC, will you actually want the second option?? For real??
    I am willing to bet I have more skin in the Chaos Dwarf game than anyone on these forums. I'm talking serious moolah over about two decades if not more. And I am here to tell you I would be willing to pay a hefty premium to see them done right. Preorder, day zero, free doesn't sound as appealing to me as it seems to sound to you. You get what you pay for. I don't want the race to which I have committed incalculable hours and money to be some marketing gimmick. That's what preorders are.

    As for the, whole "immediately de-preordering the game without seeing how it is done." I am one of them, and have no shame about it. I enjoyed the Chaos Dwarfs before this trilogy, and they will be here long after this trilogy is a memory. I have a small treasure trove that has yet to be unpainted, and a pretty reliable community in my area with which to play filled with people who I love. This game is icing on the cake for me, and I am here for Chaos Dwarfs not the other way around. It's been that way since the leak back in, what? 2016? I mean... I only joined these forums in an effort to push back against the narrative that Chaos Dwarfs should be the preorder.

    So yeah, if they don't measure up to the quality that I expect then I will play with the Chaos Dwarfs mod on Warhammer 2, which I really enjoy, and play with/paint my little plastic toys, and you guys can enjoy this game to the fullest. It just wasn't for me. I'm willing to make that commitment because there is no reality in which Chaos Dwarfs can be done justice with a preorder. None. JungleElf pointed out in another thread that even ignoring the units and lords, the audio, architecture, and such alone demands a full campaign pack. And CA is NOT, no matter the mental gymnastics, going to commit resources to those things in something that is for the most part free.

    The reason it baffles you is because, for you, a slightly skimmed down Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't really register. You don't have a standard that it must measure to. They are what they are and you are just happy to have them. But for me it has years of head fantasy to live up to. I sit between patients at work thinking about what the music would sound like. What it would be like to see the obsidian ziggurats that I have been fantasizing about for ages. The dialogue that would exist between characters. And people come here and say, "Gosh, why wouldn't you just be happy with a reskinned free day zero preorder bonus!?" No, no I wouldn't. I am willing to lower my expectations to meet the reality of game production/development in the 2020s, but not to the level of a preorder.
    Fair enough! You made very good points

    I started playing in late 80's. Chaos Dwarfs are among my top 5 but they are not my favorite. Forgeworld was too expensive for me to play them beyond a bare minimum. They are my absolute top 1 in blood bowl, though

    So my standards are far lower than yours. They are still quite higher than you seem to believe, mind you

    One thing you may have not considered is that quality normally goes up with iterations. Expecting things to go perfect at the first try is not reallistic, even if it takes a lot of time. Look at skaven or wood elves for examples in the game. The best option in the long run is always getting something soon, and then see it regularly fixed and updated after feedback and real-life testing. This is the most fiable way to achieve high quality

    Anyway, I still stand for what I said. I have zero interest in DoW, and Nagash deserves waaaay better just to keep the game lore-friendly. Ogres (same budget problem), Hobgoblins, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh are good options too.

    But the best option (for me) is still the LoTW theory: Chaos Dwarfs in both Game 3 and ME, with very high quality (to my standards, not yours) followed in 2023 by a rework & update to get to your standars

    And I won't accept a low-budget preorder at this point, the game is extremely successful, they have no excuses for that beyond excessive greed


  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 2,908
    edited May 7
    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    Try not to forget that Norsca virtually didn't exist in the tabletop. Norsca was pulled off because CA added nearly everything they could have added into the game. The only reason people were satisfied over Norsca is because they could do Norsca relative justice with their shoestring budget.


    And guess what? You still ended up with a faction with 2 LL who plays the same, have nearly the same start position, and only 1 single generic Lord all 200+ turns long.


    Imagine Norsca's shoestring budget, but now done on Chaos Dwarfs or Ogre Kingdom, factions people actually care about and want done justice. How the hell are they going to add all those new content with a happy meal budget?
    The 'happy meal budget' is the point here. With how successful the series is, there is no reason to have a 'happy meal budget' preorder. Other than keeping the good stuff for later (cash grab), which I hope they don't do

    Now you imagine Chaos Dwarfs released this year with a budget big enough to make them justice, and for free

    This is about wishes, and that's my wish. And looking at how Game 3 sales are going, I think there is a good chance we could get this
    And when's the last time CA pulled off a race with as much impressive units for "free"? Even Tomb Kings, for as good it was, was missing a number of key units including a 2nd generic Lord so we wouldn't be stuck recruiting the same damn Lord for 200 turns.

    Here what you're not getting.

    1) CD and OK are GUARANTEES. They're major, heavily requested, and they fit perfectly in the map. I would rather the sure things to come later, with care and time put into them rather than be half-assed like WoC. I would rather the pre-order slot be reserved for races that aren't guaranteed, like Dogs of War, Hobgoblins, Halflings, Albion, Amazons, etc.I would rather Legions of Nagash be a race instead of another garbage half assed Legendary Hero.


    2) Ever heard of budget allocation? You have a barebones faction full of reskins and slight remodels and zero flagship units, and you have the CHAOS DWARFS, new units, new monsters, new machines that can not be made with simple remodeling. Let's say that pre-order budget won't be barely enough for a quarter pounder. Do you seriously think it'll match that of a paid DLC? Which Faction makes more sense to give the larger budget to? Which Faction makes more sense to give away for "free"?


    I certainly don't want them to waste a campaign packs budget on Dogs of War who have literally nothing to blow that budget on.
  • DrazhoaththeAshenDrazhoaththeAshen Registered Users Posts: 279
    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    saweendra said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    yes that would be enough to get 4LL DoW pack but no way in Hell they can do CD or Ok on that budget plus it would be stupid since those would sell really well as DlC
    You don't know what they can do with 'that budget' because you don't know the budget. Neither do I

    Given how good have been the sales, the budget for the preorder could be massive. Preorders are done to get more people buying the game, they are not supposed to be bad. The budget should be massive

    And yes, the good stuff could be kept for years and be sold as a DLC instead of for free. That's called cash grabbing. It may happen, but I don't wish it

    I wish to get Chaos Dwarfs at top quality the sooner the better, and for free, since this is a wish. And I don't wish a low level preorder. That's it

    I struggle to understand why people here is so extremely pessimistic about Game 3, so far I am very happy with what CA has done, in general
    If lots of people are buying the game, the pre-order budget is more likely to go down than up- it's an incentive to get people to buy the game. If people are buying it, the incentive is less important, not more important.

    At the end of the day, CA (and more importantly, GW/Sega) are companies, so profit is the most important. Selling the Chaos Dwarfs as a campaign pack makes them more money than giving it away as a pre-order. Full stop.
    More sense for them, no doubt

    But it is a bad thing for us, isn't it? Asking for money for something that could be possible to get for free? Preorder = day 0 DLC?

    I get why people expect this to happen. What buffles me to no end is people seemingly wanting it. Or saying that they will inmediately de-preorder the game if the preorder is a big faction, without seeing how it is done

    To the people who disagree with me saying 'I want Chaos Dwarfs at top quality, making them justice, the sooner the better and for free'... what part do you disagree with?

    If you could pick between top quality Chaos Dwarfs for free and the same quality Chaos Dwarfs as a 2023 expensive DLC, will you actually want the second option?? For real??
    I am willing to bet I have more skin in the Chaos Dwarf game than anyone on these forums. I'm talking serious moolah over about two decades if not more. And I am here to tell you I would be willing to pay a hefty premium to see them done right. Preorder, day zero, free doesn't sound as appealing to me as it seems to sound to you. You get what you pay for. I don't want the race to which I have committed incalculable hours and money to be some marketing gimmick. That's what preorders are.

    As for the, whole "immediately de-preordering the game without seeing how it is done." I am one of them, and have no shame about it. I enjoyed the Chaos Dwarfs before this trilogy, and they will be here long after this trilogy is a memory. I have a small treasure trove that has yet to be unpainted, and a pretty reliable community in my area with which to play filled with people who I love. This game is icing on the cake for me, and I am here for Chaos Dwarfs not the other way around. It's been that way since the leak back in, what? 2016? I mean... I only joined these forums in an effort to push back against the narrative that Chaos Dwarfs should be the preorder.

    So yeah, if they don't measure up to the quality that I expect then I will play with the Chaos Dwarfs mod on Warhammer 2, which I really enjoy, and play with/paint my little plastic toys, and you guys can enjoy this game to the fullest. It just wasn't for me. I'm willing to make that commitment because there is no reality in which Chaos Dwarfs can be done justice with a preorder. None. JungleElf pointed out in another thread that even ignoring the units and lords, the audio, architecture, and such alone demands a full campaign pack. And CA is NOT, no matter the mental gymnastics, going to commit resources to those things in something that is for the most part free.

    The reason it baffles you is because, for you, a slightly skimmed down Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't really register. You don't have a standard that it must measure to. They are what they are and you are just happy to have them. But for me it has years of head fantasy to live up to. I sit between patients at work thinking about what the music would sound like. What it would be like to see the obsidian ziggurats that I have been fantasizing about for ages. The dialogue that would exist between characters. And people come here and say, "Gosh, why wouldn't you just be happy with a reskinned free day zero preorder bonus!?" No, no I wouldn't. I am willing to lower my expectations to meet the reality of game production/development in the 2020s, but not to the level of a preorder.
    Fair enough! You made very good points

    I started playing in late 80's. Chaos Dwarfs are among my top 5 but they are not my favorite. Forgeworld was too expensive for me to play them beyond a bare minimum. They are my absolute top 1 in blood bowl, though

    So my standards are far lower than yours. They are still quite higher than you seem to believe, mind you

    One thing you may have not considered is that quality normally goes up with iterations. Expecting things to go perfect at the first try is not reallistic, even if it takes a lot of time. Look at skaven or wood elves for examples in the game. The best option in the long run is always getting something soon, and then see it regularly fixed and updated after feedback and real-life testing. This is the most fiable way to achieve high quality

    Anyway, I still stand for what I said. I have zero interest in DoW, and Nagash deserves waaaay better just to keep the game lore-friendly. Ogres (same budget problem), Hobgoblins, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh are good options too. But I won't accept a low-budget preorder at this point, the game is extremely successful, they have no excuses for that beyond excessive greed
    I said it on reddit earlier today, so I will say it here, too. I appreciate that kind of optimism and recognize that my fear and fanaticism in this is born out of some deeply rooted distrust. Like I said, once bitten twice shy. Ultimately I think we both want the same thing, being a full and well-done Chaos Dwarfs, it is just you believe that can be accomplished in a pre-order and I don't. I think it is fair that you argue your side! It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to believe that the quality of this preorder would outpace those in the past, I just don't think it outpaces enough to keep step with my expectations. I just can't imagine a pre-order for free/$10 that could deliver on what I want. And I am not willing to compromise regardless of ancillary perks.

    Hypothetically, were the Chaos Dwarfs to be released as a pre-order pack and I saw that I was dead wrong on every count. That they had a full and complete roster, unique music, unique architecture and battle visuals... the works, I would come here contrite, admit that I was wrong, and shell out to get them.

    I take a really hard stance because, 1. They are my favorite race by many many miles. I was just out taking a stroll with my wife and told her, much to her displeasure, that if they release new Chaos Dwarf casts with TOW I would be willing to pay just about any price. "You have two whole boxes filled with them!" It's not enough. I also acknowledge that this games from a place of privilege that I genuinely feel bad about. 2. I have this delusional belief that if I fight and argue hard enough, maybe somehow someway I can effect some sort of change. That's not the way the world works, but at this point it is a coping mechanism as much as anything, because I really will be upset if we get some watered down Chaos Dwarfs.

    All that to say, while we are on different sides of this, I think we both want the same end, and I appreciate the dialogue. If I come off a bit abrasive, I apologize.

    Keep calm and praise Hashut
    Beautiful artwork by Matt Hancox
  • yukontherunyukontherun Registered Users Posts: 869

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    Try not to forget that Norsca virtually didn't exist in the tabletop. Norsca was pulled off because CA added nearly everything they could have added into the game. The only reason people were satisfied over Norsca is because they could do Norsca relative justice with their shoestring budget.


    And guess what? You still ended up with a faction with 2 LL who plays the same, have nearly the same start position, and only 1 single generic Lord all 200+ turns long.


    Imagine Norsca's shoestring budget, but now done on Chaos Dwarfs or Ogre Kingdom, factions people actually care about and want done justice. How the hell are they going to add all those new content with a happy meal budget?
    The 'happy meal budget' is the point here. With how successful the series is, there is no reason to have a 'happy meal budget' preorder. Other than keeping the good stuff for later (cash grab), which I hope they don't do

    Now you imagine Chaos Dwarfs released this year with a budget big enough to make them justice, and for free

    This is about wishes, and that's my wish. And looking at how Game 3 sales are going, I think there is a good chance we could get this
    And when's the last time CA pulled off a race with as much impressive units for "free"? Even Tomb Kings, for as good it was, was missing a number of key units including a 2nd generic Lord so we wouldn't be stuck recruiting the same damn Lord for 200 turns.

    Here what you're not getting.

    1) CD and OK are GUARANTEES. They're major, heavily requested, and they fit perfectly in the map. I would rather the sure things to come later, with care and time put into them rather than be half-assed like WoC. I would rather the pre-order slot be reserved for races that aren't guaranteed, like Dogs of War, Hobgoblins, Halflings, Albion, Amazons, etc.I would rather Legions of Nagash be a race instead of another garbage half assed Legendary Hero.


    2) Ever heard of budget allocation? You have a barebones faction full of reskins and slight remodels and zero flagship units, and you have the CHAOS DWARFS, new units, new monsters, new machines that can not be made with simple remodeling. Let's say that pre-order budget won't be barely enough for a quarter pounder. Do you seriously think it'll match that of a paid DLC? Which Faction makes more sense to give the larger budget to? Which Faction makes more sense to give away for "free"?


    I certainly don't want them to waste a campaign packs budget on Dogs of War who have literally nothing to blow that budget on.
    The preorder isn't given away for free. Leaving aside all the people who'll buy it latter,cash flow is important to companies. CA expends money on preorder bonuses not just for the return on marketing but because preorders ensure a more steady revenue throughout the year.

    This has nothing to do with chaos dwarfs, just felt like pointing that out.
    Justice for the scalies!

    Basic fixes for blessed spawnings and geomantic web:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/293369/lizardmen-rework-suggestions/p1?new=1
  • peabodyestatepeabodyestate Registered Users Posts: 1,292
    LEts be honest, its anything except Chaos Dwarfs for all, and Dogs of War for most.

    Nagash remains the front runner for me. Its easier than most, and sets up game 3 in an amazing way. Let me pay more money for Chorfs and DoW.
  • csm001csm001 Registered Users Posts: 53

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    saweendra said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    yes that would be enough to get 4LL DoW pack but no way in Hell they can do CD or Ok on that budget plus it would be stupid since those would sell really well as DlC
    You don't know what they can do with 'that budget' because you don't know the budget. Neither do I

    Given how good have been the sales, the budget for the preorder could be massive. Preorders are done to get more people buying the game, they are not supposed to be bad. The budget should be massive

    And yes, the good stuff could be kept for years and be sold as a DLC instead of for free. That's called cash grabbing. It may happen, but I don't wish it

    I wish to get Chaos Dwarfs at top quality the sooner the better, and for free, since this is a wish. And I don't wish a low level preorder. That's it

    I struggle to understand why people here is so extremely pessimistic about Game 3, so far I am very happy with what CA has done, in general
    If lots of people are buying the game, the pre-order budget is more likely to go down than up- it's an incentive to get people to buy the game. If people are buying it, the incentive is less important, not more important.

    At the end of the day, CA (and more importantly, GW/Sega) are companies, so profit is the most important. Selling the Chaos Dwarfs as a campaign pack makes them more money than giving it away as a pre-order. Full stop.
    More sense for them, no doubt

    But it is a bad thing for us, isn't it? Asking for money for something that could be possible to get for free? Preorder = day 0 DLC?

    I get why people expect this to happen. What buffles me to no end is people seemingly wanting it. Or saying that they will inmediately de-preorder the game if the preorder is a big faction, without seeing how it is done

    To the people who disagree with me saying 'I want Chaos Dwarfs at top quality, making them justice, the sooner the better and for free'... what part do you disagree with?

    If you could pick between top quality Chaos Dwarfs for free and the same quality Chaos Dwarfs as a 2023 expensive DLC, will you actually want the second option?? For real??
    I am willing to bet I have more skin in the Chaos Dwarf game than anyone on these forums. I'm talking serious moolah over about two decades if not more. And I am here to tell you I would be willing to pay a hefty premium to see them done right. Preorder, day zero, free doesn't sound as appealing to me as it seems to sound to you. You get what you pay for. I don't want the race to which I have committed incalculable hours and money to be some marketing gimmick. That's what preorders are.

    As for the, whole "immediately de-preordering the game without seeing how it is done." I am one of them, and have no shame about it. I enjoyed the Chaos Dwarfs before this trilogy, and they will be here long after this trilogy is a memory. I have a small treasure trove that has yet to be unpainted, and a pretty reliable community in my area with which to play filled with people who I love. This game is icing on the cake for me, and I am here for Chaos Dwarfs not the other way around. It's been that way since the leak back in, what? 2016? I mean... I only joined these forums in an effort to push back against the narrative that Chaos Dwarfs should be the preorder.

    So yeah, if they don't measure up to the quality that I expect then I will play with the Chaos Dwarfs mod on Warhammer 2, which I really enjoy, and play with/paint my little plastic toys, and you guys can enjoy this game to the fullest. It just wasn't for me. I'm willing to make that commitment because there is no reality in which Chaos Dwarfs can be done justice with a preorder. None. JungleElf pointed out in another thread that even ignoring the units and lords, the audio, architecture, and such alone demands a full campaign pack. And CA is NOT, no matter the mental gymnastics, going to commit resources to those things in something that is for the most part free.

    The reason it baffles you is because, for you, a slightly skimmed down Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't really register. You don't have a standard that it must measure to. They are what they are and you are just happy to have them. But for me it has years of head fantasy to live up to. I sit between patients at work thinking about what the music would sound like. What it would be like to see the obsidian ziggurats that I have been fantasizing about for ages. The dialogue that would exist between characters. And people come here and say, "Gosh, why wouldn't you just be happy with a reskinned free day zero preorder bonus!?" No, no I wouldn't. I am willing to lower my expectations to meet the reality of game production/development in the 2020s, but not to the level of a preorder.
    Fair enough! You made very good points

    I started playing in late 80's. Chaos Dwarfs are among my top 5 but they are not my favorite. Forgeworld was too expensive for me to play them beyond a bare minimum. They are my absolute top 1 in blood bowl, though

    So my standards are far lower than yours. They are still quite higher than you seem to believe, mind you

    One thing you may have not considered is that quality normally goes up with iterations. Expecting things to go perfect at the first try is not reallistic, even if it takes a lot of time. Look at skaven or wood elves for examples in the game. The best option in the long run is always getting something soon, and then see it regularly fixed and updated after feedback and real-life testing. This is the most fiable way to achieve high quality

    Anyway, I still stand for what I said. I have zero interest in DoW, and Nagash deserves waaaay better just to keep the game lore-friendly. Ogres (same budget problem), Hobgoblins, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh are good options too. But I won't accept a low-budget preorder at this point, the game is extremely successful, they have no excuses for that beyond excessive greed
    I said it on reddit earlier today, so I will say it here, too. I appreciate that kind of optimism and recognize that my fear and fanaticism in this is born out of some deeply rooted distrust. Like I said, once bitten twice shy. Ultimately I think we both want the same thing, being a full and well-done Chaos Dwarfs, it is just you believe that can be accomplished in a pre-order and I don't. I think it is fair that you argue your side! It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to believe that the quality of this preorder would outpace those in the past, I just don't think it outpaces enough to keep step with my expectations. I just can't imagine a pre-order for free/$10 that could deliver on what I want. And I am not willing to compromise regardless of ancillary perks.

    Hypothetically, were the Chaos Dwarfs to be released as a pre-order pack and I saw that I was dead wrong on every count. That they had a full and complete roster, unique music, unique architecture and battle visuals... the works, I would come here contrite, admit that I was wrong, and shell out to get them.

    I take a really hard stance because, 1. They are my favorite race by many many miles. I was just out taking a stroll with my wife and told her, much to her displeasure, that if they release new Chaos Dwarf casts with TOW I would be willing to pay just about any price. "You have two whole boxes filled with them!" It's not enough. I also acknowledge that this games from a place of privilege that I genuinely feel bad about. 2. I have this delusional belief that if I fight and argue hard enough, maybe somehow someway I can effect some sort of change. That's not the way the world works, but at this point it is a coping mechanism as much as anything, because I really will be upset if we get some watered down Chaos Dwarfs.

    All that to say, while we are on different sides of this, I think we both want the same end, and I appreciate the dialogue. If I come off a bit abrasive, I apologize.
    No need to apologize!! Your posts are a pleasure to read, and we only disagree in the means, not the ends
  • csm001csm001 Registered Users Posts: 53

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    Try not to forget that Norsca virtually didn't exist in the tabletop. Norsca was pulled off because CA added nearly everything they could have added into the game. The only reason people were satisfied over Norsca is because they could do Norsca relative justice with their shoestring budget.


    And guess what? You still ended up with a faction with 2 LL who plays the same, have nearly the same start position, and only 1 single generic Lord all 200+ turns long.


    Imagine Norsca's shoestring budget, but now done on Chaos Dwarfs or Ogre Kingdom, factions people actually care about and want done justice. How the hell are they going to add all those new content with a happy meal budget?
    The 'happy meal budget' is the point here. With how successful the series is, there is no reason to have a 'happy meal budget' preorder. Other than keeping the good stuff for later (cash grab), which I hope they don't do

    Now you imagine Chaos Dwarfs released this year with a budget big enough to make them justice, and for free

    This is about wishes, and that's my wish. And looking at how Game 3 sales are going, I think there is a good chance we could get this
    And when's the last time CA pulled off a race with as much impressive units for "free"? Even Tomb Kings, for as good it was, was missing a number of key units including a 2nd generic Lord so we wouldn't be stuck recruiting the same damn Lord for 200 turns.

    Here what you're not getting.

    1) CD and OK are GUARANTEES. They're major, heavily requested, and they fit perfectly in the map. I would rather the sure things to come later, with care and time put into them rather than be half-assed like WoC. I would rather the pre-order slot be reserved for races that aren't guaranteed, like Dogs of War, Hobgoblins, Halflings, Albion, Amazons, etc.I would rather Legions of Nagash be a race instead of another garbage half assed Legendary Hero.


    2) Ever heard of budget allocation? You have a barebones faction full of reskins and slight remodels and zero flagship units, and you have the CHAOS DWARFS, new units, new monsters, new machines that can not be made with simple remodeling. Let's say that pre-order budget won't be barely enough for a quarter pounder. Do you seriously think it'll match that of a paid DLC? Which Faction makes more sense to give the larger budget to? Which Faction makes more sense to give away for "free"?


    I certainly don't want them to waste a campaign packs budget on Dogs of War who have literally nothing to blow that budget on.
    Sort of agree with point 1. I see Nagash as an end-game apocalypse scenario, though. I don't think he fits as a race pack or campaign pack, let alone a LL pack. He is on another level. But that's another topic

    About point 2, yeah I think the preorder faction budget should match that of a Game 2 paid DLC (a la Tomb Kings / Vampire Coast). Game 2 has been extremely successful

    Look at the rise in quality from Game 1 to Game 2. Compare the full price Beastmen DLC with the half price Norsca Preorder. I expect a rise in quality at least as big as that

    There are no excuses for cheap preorders at this point

  • csm001csm001 Registered Users Posts: 53

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    saweendra said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    yes that would be enough to get 4LL DoW pack but no way in Hell they can do CD or Ok on that budget plus it would be stupid since those would sell really well as DlC
    You don't know what they can do with 'that budget' because you don't know the budget. Neither do I

    Given how good have been the sales, the budget for the preorder could be massive. Preorders are done to get more people buying the game, they are not supposed to be bad. The budget should be massive

    And yes, the good stuff could be kept for years and be sold as a DLC instead of for free. That's called cash grabbing. It may happen, but I don't wish it

    I wish to get Chaos Dwarfs at top quality the sooner the better, and for free, since this is a wish. And I don't wish a low level preorder. That's it

    I struggle to understand why people here is so extremely pessimistic about Game 3, so far I am very happy with what CA has done, in general
    If lots of people are buying the game, the pre-order budget is more likely to go down than up- it's an incentive to get people to buy the game. If people are buying it, the incentive is less important, not more important.

    At the end of the day, CA (and more importantly, GW/Sega) are companies, so profit is the most important. Selling the Chaos Dwarfs as a campaign pack makes them more money than giving it away as a pre-order. Full stop.
    More sense for them, no doubt

    But it is a bad thing for us, isn't it? Asking for money for something that could be possible to get for free? Preorder = day 0 DLC?

    I get why people expect this to happen. What buffles me to no end is people seemingly wanting it. Or saying that they will inmediately de-preorder the game if the preorder is a big faction, without seeing how it is done

    To the people who disagree with me saying 'I want Chaos Dwarfs at top quality, making them justice, the sooner the better and for free'... what part do you disagree with?

    If you could pick between top quality Chaos Dwarfs for free and the same quality Chaos Dwarfs as a 2023 expensive DLC, will you actually want the second option?? For real??
    If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Festag.

    Of course I want Chaos Dwarfs for free with all their units, in the best state of any race yet.

    I'd also like Araby, Albion, Amazons, Halflings, Nagash, Hobgoblin Khanate, Nippon, Ind and Khuresh.
    I'd also like all existing and future races to have all the characters and units they need.
    And I'd like it all for free.

    But that isn't going to happen, so I'll take them as an expensive DLC, as that's the only circumstance I can imagine in which the Chaos Dwarfs get most/all the units I want them to have.
    This topic is about what do we want as preorder

    I want a merry Festag. I want Chaos Dwarfs for free with all their units, in the best state of any race yet. And given how big the game has become, I don't think it is too unrealistic. Not after Cathay

    I don't expect it to happen. And something like Hobgoblins would be enough for me to be happy

    But the LoTW theory makes me shudder with anticipation and pleasure, and it sort of makes sense
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 5,142
    csm001 said:

    And given how big the game has become, I don't think it is too unrealistic.

    If the budget of the pre-order bonus became bigger then we can assume that so did the budget of campaign packs. So whatever race is sold as 'full-priced DLC still will get more resources than 'free' one.

  • csm001csm001 Registered Users Posts: 53
    SerPus said:

    csm001 said:

    And given how big the game has become, I don't think it is too unrealistic.

    If the budget of the pre-order bonus became bigger then we can assume that so did the budget of campaign packs. So whatever race is sold as 'full-priced DLC still will get more resources than 'free' one.

    But there is a limit in how much money makes sense to put into a single faction. To me, Tomb King levels + rework/update/fix by LL if needed is good enough. And Norsca was better than anything that came before, I want this to happen again

    Beyond that point, I would rather CA keep their money and fill up the world map, or revisit Game 1 and 2 and get stuff like Araby, Southern Realms or Albion done
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 2,908

    LEts be honest, its anything except Chaos Dwarfs for all, and Dogs of War for most.

    Nagash remains the front runner for me. Its easier than most, and sets up game 3 in an amazing way. Let me pay more money for Chorfs and DoW.

    I kinda doubt DoW will be a racepack if they're not Pre-Order.

    What are players really paying for? What can they even do withWill they be a cheap half priced DLC? A FLC like Brettonia?
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 5,142
    csm001 said:

    But there is a limit in how much money makes sense to put into a single faction.

    Sure. And for something that developers are selling for 20$ that limit is higher.
    csm001 said:

    To me, Tomb King levels + rework/update/fix by LL if needed is good enough. And Norsca was better than anything that came before, I want this to happen again

    That's the difference. Some people want Chaos Dwarfs to be something that is "good enough". Other people want them to be as good as they could possibly be. And while Norsca indeed was better than anything that came before, it's worse than something that came only 5 months later.

  • AlchimistAlchimist Registered Users Posts: 274
    Dogs of War/Southern Realms.

    They have a similar scope than Norsca, most of their units can be drawn from already existing races, with a handful of colorful new ones, such as Halflings, the Land Ship (technically an Empire unit, but it fits DoW better imo), even some units from Albion or Amazon could make it ...

    Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms are just too big to be a pre-order race pack, they deserve the larger scale of a race pack.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 27,751

    LEts be honest, its anything except Chaos Dwarfs for all, and Dogs of War for most.

    Nagash remains the front runner for me. Its easier than most, and sets up game 3 in an amazing way. Let me pay more money for Chorfs and DoW.

    I kinda doubt DoW will be a racepack if they're not Pre-Order.

    What are players really paying for? What can they even do withWill they be a cheap half priced DLC? A FLC like Brettonia?
    DoW have almost limitless potential. It can be a catch all for races that'll never make it in the game.
    Hyped for TWW3.

    CA! Cathay has the most potential of any race in TWW by far. More A+ material to design a race from than any other. You can make Cathay the best race in TWW history. I bolieve in you!
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 772
    Chaos Dwarfs seem like a shoe-in for preorder tbh, keeps with the Chaos preorder theme, can reuse assets for lots of things, they are appealing as a preorder race so will motivate purchases.

    I also reject they idea they will be done poorly due to being a preorder, Norsca were not done poorly at all. Just cause you like a faction is no justification for reinventing the wheel, Dark Elves/High Elves/Wood Elves reuse loads of stuff between them and still feel very fleshed out and unique.

    What also make sense is if they give a Chaos Dwarfs preorder with two LLs, the "no dlc for dlc" rule is firmly in the ground now, so CA could then do a Dwarf VS Chaos Dwarfs lord pack to bring them up to speed down the line. And if Dwarfs get an LL before the end of game 2 (I think there is a decent chance of Josef Bugman or the Engineer dude as FLC based on last hidden spot in Mortal Empires map being very mountainous), then a cross game lord pack in game 3 would bring them up to 6.
    Pre-Covid Forum Account: Orklads
    Discord/Steam Name: Glorious Feeder
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 2,753

    PreOrder means one DLC no updates ?
    In that case Dogs Of War

    I'm still leaning towards Hobgoblin Empire

    2 LLs with limited roster? Hobgobla Khan and Oglah Khan, with Hobgobo units that CA would need to make for Chorf DLC later anyway. Job done.
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 772
    edited May 7

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    saweendra said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    yes that would be enough to get 4LL DoW pack but no way in Hell they can do CD or Ok on that budget plus it would be stupid since those would sell really well as DlC
    You don't know what they can do with 'that budget' because you don't know the budget. Neither do I

    Given how good have been the sales, the budget for the preorder could be massive. Preorders are done to get more people buying the game, they are not supposed to be bad. The budget should be massive

    And yes, the good stuff could be kept for years and be sold as a DLC instead of for free. That's called cash grabbing. It may happen, but I don't wish it

    I wish to get Chaos Dwarfs at top quality the sooner the better, and for free, since this is a wish. And I don't wish a low level preorder. That's it

    I struggle to understand why people here is so extremely pessimistic about Game 3, so far I am very happy with what CA has done, in general
    If lots of people are buying the game, the pre-order budget is more likely to go down than up- it's an incentive to get people to buy the game. If people are buying it, the incentive is less important, not more important.

    At the end of the day, CA (and more importantly, GW/Sega) are companies, so profit is the most important. Selling the Chaos Dwarfs as a campaign pack makes them more money than giving it away as a pre-order. Full stop.
    More sense for them, no doubt

    But it is a bad thing for us, isn't it? Asking for money for something that could be possible to get for free? Preorder = day 0 DLC?

    I get why people expect this to happen. What buffles me to no end is people seemingly wanting it. Or saying that they will inmediately de-preorder the game if the preorder is a big faction, without seeing how it is done

    To the people who disagree with me saying 'I want Chaos Dwarfs at top quality, making them justice, the sooner the better and for free'... what part do you disagree with?

    If you could pick between top quality Chaos Dwarfs for free and the same quality Chaos Dwarfs as a 2023 expensive DLC, will you actually want the second option?? For real??
    I am willing to bet I have more skin in the Chaos Dwarf game than anyone on these forums. I'm talking serious moolah over about two decades if not more. And I am here to tell you I would be willing to pay a hefty premium to see them done right. Preorder, day zero, free doesn't sound as appealing to me as it seems to sound to you. You get what you pay for. I don't want the race to which I have committed incalculable hours and money to be some marketing gimmick. That's what preorders are.

    As for the, whole "immediately de-preordering the game without seeing how it is done." I am one of them, and have no shame about it. I enjoyed the Chaos Dwarfs before this trilogy, and they will be here long after this trilogy is a memory. I have a small treasure trove that has yet to be unpainted, and a pretty reliable community in my area with which to play filled with people who I love. This game is icing on the cake for me, and I am here for Chaos Dwarfs not the other way around. It's been that way since the leak back in, what? 2016? I mean... I only joined these forums in an effort to push back against the narrative that Chaos Dwarfs should be the preorder.

    So yeah, if they don't measure up to the quality that I expect then I will play with the Chaos Dwarfs mod on Warhammer 2, which I really enjoy, and play with/paint my little plastic toys, and you guys can enjoy this game to the fullest. It just wasn't for me. I'm willing to make that commitment because there is no reality in which Chaos Dwarfs can be done justice with a preorder. None. JungleElf pointed out in another thread that even ignoring the units and lords, the audio, architecture, and such alone demands a full campaign pack. And CA is NOT, no matter the mental gymnastics, going to commit resources to those things in something that is for the most part free.

    The reason it baffles you is because, for you, a slightly skimmed down Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't really register. You don't have a standard that it must measure to. They are what they are and you are just happy to have them. But for me it has years of head fantasy to live up to. I sit between patients at work thinking about what the music would sound like. What it would be like to see the obsidian ziggurats that I have been fantasizing about for ages. The dialogue that would exist between characters. And people come here and say, "Gosh, why wouldn't you just be happy with a reskinned free day zero preorder bonus!?" No, no I wouldn't. I am willing to lower my expectations to meet the reality of game production/development in the 2020s, but not to the level of a preorder.
    Fair enough! You made very good points

    I started playing in late 80's. Chaos Dwarfs are among my top 5 but they are not my favorite. Forgeworld was too expensive for me to play them beyond a bare minimum. They are my absolute top 1 in blood bowl, though

    So my standards are far lower than yours. They are still quite higher than you seem to believe, mind you

    One thing you may have not considered is that quality normally goes up with iterations. Expecting things to go perfect at the first try is not reallistic, even if it takes a lot of time. Look at skaven or wood elves for examples in the game. The best option in the long run is always getting something soon, and then see it regularly fixed and updated after feedback and real-life testing. This is the most fiable way to achieve high quality

    Anyway, I still stand for what I said. I have zero interest in DoW, and Nagash deserves waaaay better just to keep the game lore-friendly. Ogres (same budget problem), Hobgoblins, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh are good options too. But I won't accept a low-budget preorder at this point, the game is extremely successful, they have no excuses for that beyond excessive greed
    I said it on reddit earlier today, so I will say it here, too. I appreciate that kind of optimism and recognize that my fear and fanaticism in this is born out of some deeply rooted distrust. Like I said, once bitten twice shy. Ultimately I think we both want the same thing, being a full and well-done Chaos Dwarfs, it is just you believe that can be accomplished in a pre-order and I don't. I think it is fair that you argue your side! It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to believe that the quality of this preorder would outpace those in the past, I just don't think it outpaces enough to keep step with my expectations. I just can't imagine a pre-order for free/$10 that could deliver on what I want. And I am not willing to compromise regardless of ancillary perks.

    Hypothetically, were the Chaos Dwarfs to be released as a pre-order pack and I saw that I was dead wrong on every count. That they had a full and complete roster, unique music, unique architecture and battle visuals... the works, I would come here contrite, admit that I was wrong, and shell out to get them.

    I take a really hard stance because, 1. They are my favorite race by many many miles. I was just out taking a stroll with my wife and told her, much to her displeasure, that if they release new Chaos Dwarf casts with TOW I would be willing to pay just about any price. "You have two whole boxes filled with them!" It's not enough. I also acknowledge that this games from a place of privilege that I genuinely feel bad about. 2. I have this delusional belief that if I fight and argue hard enough, maybe somehow someway I can effect some sort of change. That's not the way the world works, but at this point it is a coping mechanism as much as anything, because I really will be upset if we get some watered down Chaos Dwarfs.

    All that to say, while we are on different sides of this, I think we both want the same end, and I appreciate the dialogue. If I come off a bit abrasive, I apologize.
    Dude, I get being a fan of something but this is seriously pushing into "Stan" territory. On the other hand I did crack up imagining that conversation with your wife.

    "Honey, I would love to visit the South of France when this Covid thing is over"

    "Not so fast, we need to keep in mind my substantial ongoing expenditure into Chaos Dwarf models and paraphernalia and its impact on the budget."
    Pre-Covid Forum Account: Orklads
    Discord/Steam Name: Glorious Feeder
  • DrazhoaththeAshenDrazhoaththeAshen Registered Users Posts: 279
    edited May 7

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    saweendra said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    yes that would be enough to get 4LL DoW pack but no way in Hell they can do CD or Ok on that budget plus it would be stupid since those would sell really well as DlC
    You don't know what they can do with 'that budget' because you don't know the budget. Neither do I

    Given how good have been the sales, the budget for the preorder could be massive. Preorders are done to get more people buying the game, they are not supposed to be bad. The budget should be massive

    And yes, the good stuff could be kept for years and be sold as a DLC instead of for free. That's called cash grabbing. It may happen, but I don't wish it

    I wish to get Chaos Dwarfs at top quality the sooner the better, and for free, since this is a wish. And I don't wish a low level preorder. That's it

    I struggle to understand why people here is so extremely pessimistic about Game 3, so far I am very happy with what CA has done, in general
    If lots of people are buying the game, the pre-order budget is more likely to go down than up- it's an incentive to get people to buy the game. If people are buying it, the incentive is less important, not more important.

    At the end of the day, CA (and more importantly, GW/Sega) are companies, so profit is the most important. Selling the Chaos Dwarfs as a campaign pack makes them more money than giving it away as a pre-order. Full stop.
    More sense for them, no doubt

    But it is a bad thing for us, isn't it? Asking for money for something that could be possible to get for free? Preorder = day 0 DLC?

    I get why people expect this to happen. What buffles me to no end is people seemingly wanting it. Or saying that they will inmediately de-preorder the game if the preorder is a big faction, without seeing how it is done

    To the people who disagree with me saying 'I want Chaos Dwarfs at top quality, making them justice, the sooner the better and for free'... what part do you disagree with?

    If you could pick between top quality Chaos Dwarfs for free and the same quality Chaos Dwarfs as a 2023 expensive DLC, will you actually want the second option?? For real??
    I am willing to bet I have more skin in the Chaos Dwarf game than anyone on these forums. I'm talking serious moolah over about two decades if not more. And I am here to tell you I would be willing to pay a hefty premium to see them done right. Preorder, day zero, free doesn't sound as appealing to me as it seems to sound to you. You get what you pay for. I don't want the race to which I have committed incalculable hours and money to be some marketing gimmick. That's what preorders are.

    As for the, whole "immediately de-preordering the game without seeing how it is done." I am one of them, and have no shame about it. I enjoyed the Chaos Dwarfs before this trilogy, and they will be here long after this trilogy is a memory. I have a small treasure trove that has yet to be unpainted, and a pretty reliable community in my area with which to play filled with people who I love. This game is icing on the cake for me, and I am here for Chaos Dwarfs not the other way around. It's been that way since the leak back in, what? 2016? I mean... I only joined these forums in an effort to push back against the narrative that Chaos Dwarfs should be the preorder.

    So yeah, if they don't measure up to the quality that I expect then I will play with the Chaos Dwarfs mod on Warhammer 2, which I really enjoy, and play with/paint my little plastic toys, and you guys can enjoy this game to the fullest. It just wasn't for me. I'm willing to make that commitment because there is no reality in which Chaos Dwarfs can be done justice with a preorder. None. JungleElf pointed out in another thread that even ignoring the units and lords, the audio, architecture, and such alone demands a full campaign pack. And CA is NOT, no matter the mental gymnastics, going to commit resources to those things in something that is for the most part free.

    The reason it baffles you is because, for you, a slightly skimmed down Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't really register. You don't have a standard that it must measure to. They are what they are and you are just happy to have them. But for me it has years of head fantasy to live up to. I sit between patients at work thinking about what the music would sound like. What it would be like to see the obsidian ziggurats that I have been fantasizing about for ages. The dialogue that would exist between characters. And people come here and say, "Gosh, why wouldn't you just be happy with a reskinned free day zero preorder bonus!?" No, no I wouldn't. I am willing to lower my expectations to meet the reality of game production/development in the 2020s, but not to the level of a preorder.
    Fair enough! You made very good points

    I started playing in late 80's. Chaos Dwarfs are among my top 5 but they are not my favorite. Forgeworld was too expensive for me to play them beyond a bare minimum. They are my absolute top 1 in blood bowl, though

    So my standards are far lower than yours. They are still quite higher than you seem to believe, mind you

    One thing you may have not considered is that quality normally goes up with iterations. Expecting things to go perfect at the first try is not reallistic, even if it takes a lot of time. Look at skaven or wood elves for examples in the game. The best option in the long run is always getting something soon, and then see it regularly fixed and updated after feedback and real-life testing. This is the most fiable way to achieve high quality

    Anyway, I still stand for what I said. I have zero interest in DoW, and Nagash deserves waaaay better just to keep the game lore-friendly. Ogres (same budget problem), Hobgoblins, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh are good options too. But I won't accept a low-budget preorder at this point, the game is extremely successful, they have no excuses for that beyond excessive greed
    I said it on reddit earlier today, so I will say it here, too. I appreciate that kind of optimism and recognize that my fear and fanaticism in this is born out of some deeply rooted distrust. Like I said, once bitten twice shy. Ultimately I think we both want the same thing, being a full and well-done Chaos Dwarfs, it is just you believe that can be accomplished in a pre-order and I don't. I think it is fair that you argue your side! It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to believe that the quality of this preorder would outpace those in the past, I just don't think it outpaces enough to keep step with my expectations. I just can't imagine a pre-order for free/$10 that could deliver on what I want. And I am not willing to compromise regardless of ancillary perks.

    Hypothetically, were the Chaos Dwarfs to be released as a pre-order pack and I saw that I was dead wrong on every count. That they had a full and complete roster, unique music, unique architecture and battle visuals... the works, I would come here contrite, admit that I was wrong, and shell out to get them.

    I take a really hard stance because, 1. They are my favorite race by many many miles. I was just out taking a stroll with my wife and told her, much to her displeasure, that if they release new Chaos Dwarf casts with TOW I would be willing to pay just about any price. "You have two whole boxes filled with them!" It's not enough. I also acknowledge that this games from a place of privilege that I genuinely feel bad about. 2. I have this delusional belief that if I fight and argue hard enough, maybe somehow someway I can effect some sort of change. That's not the way the world works, but at this point it is a coping mechanism as much as anything, because I really will be upset if we get some watered down Chaos Dwarfs.

    All that to say, while we are on different sides of this, I think we both want the same end, and I appreciate the dialogue. If I come off a bit abrasive, I apologize.
    Dude, I get being a fan of something but this is seriously pushing into "Stan" territory. On the other hand I did crack up imagining that conversation with your wife.

    "Honey, I would love to visit the South of France when this Covid thing is over"

    "Not so fast, we need to keep in mind my substantial ongoing expenditure into Chaos Dwarf models and paraphernalia and its impact on the budget."
    I mean... if you want to make it personal that's cool.

    They are my hobby. I'm not going to be ashamed of it.

    I've made a real effort to be respectful on these forums, and I think my comments are evidence that I try to be very thoughtful in my responses to people. That's more than a lot here can say. But, if this is the turn you want to take in this discussion, have at it.

    Keep calm and praise Hashut
    Beautiful artwork by Matt Hancox
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 772

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    saweendra said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    yes that would be enough to get 4LL DoW pack but no way in Hell they can do CD or Ok on that budget plus it would be stupid since those would sell really well as DlC
    You don't know what they can do with 'that budget' because you don't know the budget. Neither do I

    Given how good have been the sales, the budget for the preorder could be massive. Preorders are done to get more people buying the game, they are not supposed to be bad. The budget should be massive

    And yes, the good stuff could be kept for years and be sold as a DLC instead of for free. That's called cash grabbing. It may happen, but I don't wish it

    I wish to get Chaos Dwarfs at top quality the sooner the better, and for free, since this is a wish. And I don't wish a low level preorder. That's it

    I struggle to understand why people here is so extremely pessimistic about Game 3, so far I am very happy with what CA has done, in general
    If lots of people are buying the game, the pre-order budget is more likely to go down than up- it's an incentive to get people to buy the game. If people are buying it, the incentive is less important, not more important.

    At the end of the day, CA (and more importantly, GW/Sega) are companies, so profit is the most important. Selling the Chaos Dwarfs as a campaign pack makes them more money than giving it away as a pre-order. Full stop.
    More sense for them, no doubt

    But it is a bad thing for us, isn't it? Asking for money for something that could be possible to get for free? Preorder = day 0 DLC?

    I get why people expect this to happen. What buffles me to no end is people seemingly wanting it. Or saying that they will inmediately de-preorder the game if the preorder is a big faction, without seeing how it is done

    To the people who disagree with me saying 'I want Chaos Dwarfs at top quality, making them justice, the sooner the better and for free'... what part do you disagree with?

    If you could pick between top quality Chaos Dwarfs for free and the same quality Chaos Dwarfs as a 2023 expensive DLC, will you actually want the second option?? For real??
    I am willing to bet I have more skin in the Chaos Dwarf game than anyone on these forums. I'm talking serious moolah over about two decades if not more. And I am here to tell you I would be willing to pay a hefty premium to see them done right. Preorder, day zero, free doesn't sound as appealing to me as it seems to sound to you. You get what you pay for. I don't want the race to which I have committed incalculable hours and money to be some marketing gimmick. That's what preorders are.

    As for the, whole "immediately de-preordering the game without seeing how it is done." I am one of them, and have no shame about it. I enjoyed the Chaos Dwarfs before this trilogy, and they will be here long after this trilogy is a memory. I have a small treasure trove that has yet to be unpainted, and a pretty reliable community in my area with which to play filled with people who I love. This game is icing on the cake for me, and I am here for Chaos Dwarfs not the other way around. It's been that way since the leak back in, what? 2016? I mean... I only joined these forums in an effort to push back against the narrative that Chaos Dwarfs should be the preorder.

    So yeah, if they don't measure up to the quality that I expect then I will play with the Chaos Dwarfs mod on Warhammer 2, which I really enjoy, and play with/paint my little plastic toys, and you guys can enjoy this game to the fullest. It just wasn't for me. I'm willing to make that commitment because there is no reality in which Chaos Dwarfs can be done justice with a preorder. None. JungleElf pointed out in another thread that even ignoring the units and lords, the audio, architecture, and such alone demands a full campaign pack. And CA is NOT, no matter the mental gymnastics, going to commit resources to those things in something that is for the most part free.

    The reason it baffles you is because, for you, a slightly skimmed down Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't really register. You don't have a standard that it must measure to. They are what they are and you are just happy to have them. But for me it has years of head fantasy to live up to. I sit between patients at work thinking about what the music would sound like. What it would be like to see the obsidian ziggurats that I have been fantasizing about for ages. The dialogue that would exist between characters. And people come here and say, "Gosh, why wouldn't you just be happy with a reskinned free day zero preorder bonus!?" No, no I wouldn't. I am willing to lower my expectations to meet the reality of game production/development in the 2020s, but not to the level of a preorder.
    Fair enough! You made very good points

    I started playing in late 80's. Chaos Dwarfs are among my top 5 but they are not my favorite. Forgeworld was too expensive for me to play them beyond a bare minimum. They are my absolute top 1 in blood bowl, though

    So my standards are far lower than yours. They are still quite higher than you seem to believe, mind you

    One thing you may have not considered is that quality normally goes up with iterations. Expecting things to go perfect at the first try is not reallistic, even if it takes a lot of time. Look at skaven or wood elves for examples in the game. The best option in the long run is always getting something soon, and then see it regularly fixed and updated after feedback and real-life testing. This is the most fiable way to achieve high quality

    Anyway, I still stand for what I said. I have zero interest in DoW, and Nagash deserves waaaay better just to keep the game lore-friendly. Ogres (same budget problem), Hobgoblins, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh are good options too. But I won't accept a low-budget preorder at this point, the game is extremely successful, they have no excuses for that beyond excessive greed
    I said it on reddit earlier today, so I will say it here, too. I appreciate that kind of optimism and recognize that my fear and fanaticism in this is born out of some deeply rooted distrust. Like I said, once bitten twice shy. Ultimately I think we both want the same thing, being a full and well-done Chaos Dwarfs, it is just you believe that can be accomplished in a pre-order and I don't. I think it is fair that you argue your side! It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to believe that the quality of this preorder would outpace those in the past, I just don't think it outpaces enough to keep step with my expectations. I just can't imagine a pre-order for free/$10 that could deliver on what I want. And I am not willing to compromise regardless of ancillary perks.

    Hypothetically, were the Chaos Dwarfs to be released as a pre-order pack and I saw that I was dead wrong on every count. That they had a full and complete roster, unique music, unique architecture and battle visuals... the works, I would come here contrite, admit that I was wrong, and shell out to get them.

    I take a really hard stance because, 1. They are my favorite race by many many miles. I was just out taking a stroll with my wife and told her, much to her displeasure, that if they release new Chaos Dwarf casts with TOW I would be willing to pay just about any price. "You have two whole boxes filled with them!" It's not enough. I also acknowledge that this games from a place of privilege that I genuinely feel bad about. 2. I have this delusional belief that if I fight and argue hard enough, maybe somehow someway I can effect some sort of change. That's not the way the world works, but at this point it is a coping mechanism as much as anything, because I really will be upset if we get some watered down Chaos Dwarfs.

    All that to say, while we are on different sides of this, I think we both want the same end, and I appreciate the dialogue. If I come off a bit abrasive, I apologize.
    Dude, I get being a fan of something but this is seriously pushing into "Stan" territory. On the other hand I did crack up imagining that conversation with your wife.

    "Honey, I would love to visit the South of France when this Covid thing is over"

    "Not so fast, we need to keep in mind my substantial ongoing expenditure into Chaos Dwarf models and paraphernalia and its impact on the budget."
    I mean... if you want to make it personal that's cool.

    They are my hobby. I'm not going to be ashamed of it.

    I've made a real effort to be respectful on these forums, and I think my comments are evidence that I try to be very thoughtful in my responses to people. That's more than a lot here can say. But, if this is the turn you want to take in this discussion, have at it.
    You brought up all the personal stuff while the discussion was around Chaos Dwarfs (or other factions) being preorder. What does having a stroll with your wife have to do with Chaos Dwarf preorder likelihood? Your whole point seems to be that you have a deep personal relationship with this faction, so accusing me of "getting personal" is a bizarre accusation in the context here.
    Pre-Covid Forum Account: Orklads
    Discord/Steam Name: Glorious Feeder
  • kratostatickratostatic Registered Users Posts: 406
    On the whole "they could make Race Packs as good as Campaign Packs are now" point - sure, they could, if they think that they will make enough money from it. But Chaos Dwarfs are still getting screwed over, because this means that Campaign Packs will still have more than the Race Packs, because they are more expensive.

    Fundamentally, of the races yet to be implemented the races that have the most stuff that can be added "easily" are the Ogre Kingdoms and then Chaos Dwarfs. If anyone should get Campaign Packs, and not a, by definition inferior Race Pack, it's those two.

    On the actual question, a Legions of Nagash, a Hobgoblin Khanate or if we're going really wild Nippon.
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 2,753
    edited May 8
    @DrazhoaththeAshen

    Don't worry mate. A lot of people think Chorf are too much work for the preorder budget to do them justice. I'm betting CA thinks the same too. It's a full price Campaign DLC for sure.
    Something tells me this comment will get a Disagree
  • DrazhoaththeAshenDrazhoaththeAshen Registered Users Posts: 279

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    saweendra said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    yes that would be enough to get 4LL DoW pack but no way in Hell they can do CD or Ok on that budget plus it would be stupid since those would sell really well as DlC
    You don't know what they can do with 'that budget' because you don't know the budget. Neither do I

    Given how good have been the sales, the budget for the preorder could be massive. Preorders are done to get more people buying the game, they are not supposed to be bad. The budget should be massive

    And yes, the good stuff could be kept for years and be sold as a DLC instead of for free. That's called cash grabbing. It may happen, but I don't wish it

    I wish to get Chaos Dwarfs at top quality the sooner the better, and for free, since this is a wish. And I don't wish a low level preorder. That's it

    I struggle to understand why people here is so extremely pessimistic about Game 3, so far I am very happy with what CA has done, in general
    If lots of people are buying the game, the pre-order budget is more likely to go down than up- it's an incentive to get people to buy the game. If people are buying it, the incentive is less important, not more important.

    At the end of the day, CA (and more importantly, GW/Sega) are companies, so profit is the most important. Selling the Chaos Dwarfs as a campaign pack makes them more money than giving it away as a pre-order. Full stop.
    More sense for them, no doubt

    But it is a bad thing for us, isn't it? Asking for money for something that could be possible to get for free? Preorder = day 0 DLC?

    I get why people expect this to happen. What buffles me to no end is people seemingly wanting it. Or saying that they will inmediately de-preorder the game if the preorder is a big faction, without seeing how it is done

    To the people who disagree with me saying 'I want Chaos Dwarfs at top quality, making them justice, the sooner the better and for free'... what part do you disagree with?

    If you could pick between top quality Chaos Dwarfs for free and the same quality Chaos Dwarfs as a 2023 expensive DLC, will you actually want the second option?? For real??
    I am willing to bet I have more skin in the Chaos Dwarf game than anyone on these forums. I'm talking serious moolah over about two decades if not more. And I am here to tell you I would be willing to pay a hefty premium to see them done right. Preorder, day zero, free doesn't sound as appealing to me as it seems to sound to you. You get what you pay for. I don't want the race to which I have committed incalculable hours and money to be some marketing gimmick. That's what preorders are.

    As for the, whole "immediately de-preordering the game without seeing how it is done." I am one of them, and have no shame about it. I enjoyed the Chaos Dwarfs before this trilogy, and they will be here long after this trilogy is a memory. I have a small treasure trove that has yet to be unpainted, and a pretty reliable community in my area with which to play filled with people who I love. This game is icing on the cake for me, and I am here for Chaos Dwarfs not the other way around. It's been that way since the leak back in, what? 2016? I mean... I only joined these forums in an effort to push back against the narrative that Chaos Dwarfs should be the preorder.

    So yeah, if they don't measure up to the quality that I expect then I will play with the Chaos Dwarfs mod on Warhammer 2, which I really enjoy, and play with/paint my little plastic toys, and you guys can enjoy this game to the fullest. It just wasn't for me. I'm willing to make that commitment because there is no reality in which Chaos Dwarfs can be done justice with a preorder. None. JungleElf pointed out in another thread that even ignoring the units and lords, the audio, architecture, and such alone demands a full campaign pack. And CA is NOT, no matter the mental gymnastics, going to commit resources to those things in something that is for the most part free.

    The reason it baffles you is because, for you, a slightly skimmed down Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't really register. You don't have a standard that it must measure to. They are what they are and you are just happy to have them. But for me it has years of head fantasy to live up to. I sit between patients at work thinking about what the music would sound like. What it would be like to see the obsidian ziggurats that I have been fantasizing about for ages. The dialogue that would exist between characters. And people come here and say, "Gosh, why wouldn't you just be happy with a reskinned free day zero preorder bonus!?" No, no I wouldn't. I am willing to lower my expectations to meet the reality of game production/development in the 2020s, but not to the level of a preorder.
    Fair enough! You made very good points

    I started playing in late 80's. Chaos Dwarfs are among my top 5 but they are not my favorite. Forgeworld was too expensive for me to play them beyond a bare minimum. They are my absolute top 1 in blood bowl, though

    So my standards are far lower than yours. They are still quite higher than you seem to believe, mind you

    One thing you may have not considered is that quality normally goes up with iterations. Expecting things to go perfect at the first try is not reallistic, even if it takes a lot of time. Look at skaven or wood elves for examples in the game. The best option in the long run is always getting something soon, and then see it regularly fixed and updated after feedback and real-life testing. This is the most fiable way to achieve high quality

    Anyway, I still stand for what I said. I have zero interest in DoW, and Nagash deserves waaaay better just to keep the game lore-friendly. Ogres (same budget problem), Hobgoblins, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh are good options too. But I won't accept a low-budget preorder at this point, the game is extremely successful, they have no excuses for that beyond excessive greed
    I said it on reddit earlier today, so I will say it here, too. I appreciate that kind of optimism and recognize that my fear and fanaticism in this is born out of some deeply rooted distrust. Like I said, once bitten twice shy. Ultimately I think we both want the same thing, being a full and well-done Chaos Dwarfs, it is just you believe that can be accomplished in a pre-order and I don't. I think it is fair that you argue your side! It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to believe that the quality of this preorder would outpace those in the past, I just don't think it outpaces enough to keep step with my expectations. I just can't imagine a pre-order for free/$10 that could deliver on what I want. And I am not willing to compromise regardless of ancillary perks.

    Hypothetically, were the Chaos Dwarfs to be released as a pre-order pack and I saw that I was dead wrong on every count. That they had a full and complete roster, unique music, unique architecture and battle visuals... the works, I would come here contrite, admit that I was wrong, and shell out to get them.

    I take a really hard stance because, 1. They are my favorite race by many many miles. I was just out taking a stroll with my wife and told her, much to her displeasure, that if they release new Chaos Dwarf casts with TOW I would be willing to pay just about any price. "You have two whole boxes filled with them!" It's not enough. I also acknowledge that this games from a place of privilege that I genuinely feel bad about. 2. I have this delusional belief that if I fight and argue hard enough, maybe somehow someway I can effect some sort of change. That's not the way the world works, but at this point it is a coping mechanism as much as anything, because I really will be upset if we get some watered down Chaos Dwarfs.

    All that to say, while we are on different sides of this, I think we both want the same end, and I appreciate the dialogue. If I come off a bit abrasive, I apologize.
    Dude, I get being a fan of something but this is seriously pushing into "Stan" territory. On the other hand I did crack up imagining that conversation with your wife.

    "Honey, I would love to visit the South of France when this Covid thing is over"

    "Not so fast, we need to keep in mind my substantial ongoing expenditure into Chaos Dwarf models and paraphernalia and its impact on the budget."
    I mean... if you want to make it personal that's cool.

    They are my hobby. I'm not going to be ashamed of it.

    I've made a real effort to be respectful on these forums, and I think my comments are evidence that I try to be very thoughtful in my responses to people. That's more than a lot here can say. But, if this is the turn you want to take in this discussion, have at it.
    You brought up all the personal stuff while the discussion was around Chaos Dwarfs (or other factions) being preorder. What does having a stroll with your wife have to do with Chaos Dwarf preorder likelihood? Your whole point seems to be that you have a deep personal relationship with this faction, so accusing me of "getting personal" is a bizarre accusation in the context here.
    Last I'll speak of it, but the "Dude, I get being a fan of something but this is seriously pushing into "Stan" territory" was the bit I was referring to, and I suspect you know that. You obviously meant that with some derision and intended insult. There is a right response to someone feeling insulted by a remark, whether intended or not, and this ain't it.

    I'll add: I have always found it funny that we are A-OK with people defining themselves by their occupation, religion, or politics. But when they define themselves by their hobbies we seem to think it is aberrant. Honestly, I think defining oneself by a hobby is MUCH healthier, but that's just me.

    Keep calm and praise Hashut
    Beautiful artwork by Matt Hancox
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 772

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    saweendra said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    yes that would be enough to get 4LL DoW pack but no way in Hell they can do CD or Ok on that budget plus it would be stupid since those would sell really well as DlC
    You don't know what they can do with 'that budget' because you don't know the budget. Neither do I

    Given how good have been the sales, the budget for the preorder could be massive. Preorders are done to get more people buying the game, they are not supposed to be bad. The budget should be massive

    And yes, the good stuff could be kept for years and be sold as a DLC instead of for free. That's called cash grabbing. It may happen, but I don't wish it

    I wish to get Chaos Dwarfs at top quality the sooner the better, and for free, since this is a wish. And I don't wish a low level preorder. That's it

    I struggle to understand why people here is so extremely pessimistic about Game 3, so far I am very happy with what CA has done, in general
    If lots of people are buying the game, the pre-order budget is more likely to go down than up- it's an incentive to get people to buy the game. If people are buying it, the incentive is less important, not more important.

    At the end of the day, CA (and more importantly, GW/Sega) are companies, so profit is the most important. Selling the Chaos Dwarfs as a campaign pack makes them more money than giving it away as a pre-order. Full stop.
    More sense for them, no doubt

    But it is a bad thing for us, isn't it? Asking for money for something that could be possible to get for free? Preorder = day 0 DLC?

    I get why people expect this to happen. What buffles me to no end is people seemingly wanting it. Or saying that they will inmediately de-preorder the game if the preorder is a big faction, without seeing how it is done

    To the people who disagree with me saying 'I want Chaos Dwarfs at top quality, making them justice, the sooner the better and for free'... what part do you disagree with?

    If you could pick between top quality Chaos Dwarfs for free and the same quality Chaos Dwarfs as a 2023 expensive DLC, will you actually want the second option?? For real??
    I am willing to bet I have more skin in the Chaos Dwarf game than anyone on these forums. I'm talking serious moolah over about two decades if not more. And I am here to tell you I would be willing to pay a hefty premium to see them done right. Preorder, day zero, free doesn't sound as appealing to me as it seems to sound to you. You get what you pay for. I don't want the race to which I have committed incalculable hours and money to be some marketing gimmick. That's what preorders are.

    As for the, whole "immediately de-preordering the game without seeing how it is done." I am one of them, and have no shame about it. I enjoyed the Chaos Dwarfs before this trilogy, and they will be here long after this trilogy is a memory. I have a small treasure trove that has yet to be unpainted, and a pretty reliable community in my area with which to play filled with people who I love. This game is icing on the cake for me, and I am here for Chaos Dwarfs not the other way around. It's been that way since the leak back in, what? 2016? I mean... I only joined these forums in an effort to push back against the narrative that Chaos Dwarfs should be the preorder.

    So yeah, if they don't measure up to the quality that I expect then I will play with the Chaos Dwarfs mod on Warhammer 2, which I really enjoy, and play with/paint my little plastic toys, and you guys can enjoy this game to the fullest. It just wasn't for me. I'm willing to make that commitment because there is no reality in which Chaos Dwarfs can be done justice with a preorder. None. JungleElf pointed out in another thread that even ignoring the units and lords, the audio, architecture, and such alone demands a full campaign pack. And CA is NOT, no matter the mental gymnastics, going to commit resources to those things in something that is for the most part free.

    The reason it baffles you is because, for you, a slightly skimmed down Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't really register. You don't have a standard that it must measure to. They are what they are and you are just happy to have them. But for me it has years of head fantasy to live up to. I sit between patients at work thinking about what the music would sound like. What it would be like to see the obsidian ziggurats that I have been fantasizing about for ages. The dialogue that would exist between characters. And people come here and say, "Gosh, why wouldn't you just be happy with a reskinned free day zero preorder bonus!?" No, no I wouldn't. I am willing to lower my expectations to meet the reality of game production/development in the 2020s, but not to the level of a preorder.
    Fair enough! You made very good points

    I started playing in late 80's. Chaos Dwarfs are among my top 5 but they are not my favorite. Forgeworld was too expensive for me to play them beyond a bare minimum. They are my absolute top 1 in blood bowl, though

    So my standards are far lower than yours. They are still quite higher than you seem to believe, mind you

    One thing you may have not considered is that quality normally goes up with iterations. Expecting things to go perfect at the first try is not reallistic, even if it takes a lot of time. Look at skaven or wood elves for examples in the game. The best option in the long run is always getting something soon, and then see it regularly fixed and updated after feedback and real-life testing. This is the most fiable way to achieve high quality

    Anyway, I still stand for what I said. I have zero interest in DoW, and Nagash deserves waaaay better just to keep the game lore-friendly. Ogres (same budget problem), Hobgoblins, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh are good options too. But I won't accept a low-budget preorder at this point, the game is extremely successful, they have no excuses for that beyond excessive greed
    I said it on reddit earlier today, so I will say it here, too. I appreciate that kind of optimism and recognize that my fear and fanaticism in this is born out of some deeply rooted distrust. Like I said, once bitten twice shy. Ultimately I think we both want the same thing, being a full and well-done Chaos Dwarfs, it is just you believe that can be accomplished in a pre-order and I don't. I think it is fair that you argue your side! It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to believe that the quality of this preorder would outpace those in the past, I just don't think it outpaces enough to keep step with my expectations. I just can't imagine a pre-order for free/$10 that could deliver on what I want. And I am not willing to compromise regardless of ancillary perks.

    Hypothetically, were the Chaos Dwarfs to be released as a pre-order pack and I saw that I was dead wrong on every count. That they had a full and complete roster, unique music, unique architecture and battle visuals... the works, I would come here contrite, admit that I was wrong, and shell out to get them.

    I take a really hard stance because, 1. They are my favorite race by many many miles. I was just out taking a stroll with my wife and told her, much to her displeasure, that if they release new Chaos Dwarf casts with TOW I would be willing to pay just about any price. "You have two whole boxes filled with them!" It's not enough. I also acknowledge that this games from a place of privilege that I genuinely feel bad about. 2. I have this delusional belief that if I fight and argue hard enough, maybe somehow someway I can effect some sort of change. That's not the way the world works, but at this point it is a coping mechanism as much as anything, because I really will be upset if we get some watered down Chaos Dwarfs.

    All that to say, while we are on different sides of this, I think we both want the same end, and I appreciate the dialogue. If I come off a bit abrasive, I apologize.
    Dude, I get being a fan of something but this is seriously pushing into "Stan" territory. On the other hand I did crack up imagining that conversation with your wife.

    "Honey, I would love to visit the South of France when this Covid thing is over"

    "Not so fast, we need to keep in mind my substantial ongoing expenditure into Chaos Dwarf models and paraphernalia and its impact on the budget."
    I mean... if you want to make it personal that's cool.

    They are my hobby. I'm not going to be ashamed of it.

    I've made a real effort to be respectful on these forums, and I think my comments are evidence that I try to be very thoughtful in my responses to people. That's more than a lot here can say. But, if this is the turn you want to take in this discussion, have at it.
    You brought up all the personal stuff while the discussion was around Chaos Dwarfs (or other factions) being preorder. What does having a stroll with your wife have to do with Chaos Dwarf preorder likelihood? Your whole point seems to be that you have a deep personal relationship with this faction, so accusing me of "getting personal" is a bizarre accusation in the context here.
    Last I'll speak of it, but the "Dude, I get being a fan of something but this is seriously pushing into "Stan" territory" was the bit I was referring to, and I suspect you know that. You obviously meant that with some derision and intended insult. There is a right response to someone feeling insulted by a remark, whether intended or not, and this ain't it.

    I'll add: I have always found it funny that we are A-OK with people defining themselves by their occupation, religion, or politics. But when they define themselves by their hobbies we seem to think it is aberrant. Honestly, I think defining oneself by a hobby is MUCH healthier, but that's just me.
    If the shoe fits.

    Nothing wrong with defining yourself by your hobbies at all, it is quite common (sportsfans, musos, gymrats, gearheads, foodies, etc to name a few). But even the examples you gave occupation/religion/politics definitely have negative terms for people who become unreasonably invested (workaholics, religious fanatics, political militants).

    I think when you have crossed the point of accusing people who want the same thing as you about 90% as "not being true fans" or whatever then you have gone from being a fan to a Stan.
    Pre-Covid Forum Account: Orklads
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  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,784
    edited May 8

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    csm001 said:

    saweendra said:

    csm001 said:

    ASyrian said:

    Chaos dwarfs with a fully fleshed out set
    Bc of the big money they made with wh2 they are able to make a preorder bonus of quality never seen before

    ^This

    Just like Norsca was better than anything that came before. I don't buy the 'preorder=bad' theory

    And the LoTW theory for ChD sounds awesome
    yes that would be enough to get 4LL DoW pack but no way in Hell they can do CD or Ok on that budget plus it would be stupid since those would sell really well as DlC
    You don't know what they can do with 'that budget' because you don't know the budget. Neither do I

    Given how good have been the sales, the budget for the preorder could be massive. Preorders are done to get more people buying the game, they are not supposed to be bad. The budget should be massive

    And yes, the good stuff could be kept for years and be sold as a DLC instead of for free. That's called cash grabbing. It may happen, but I don't wish it

    I wish to get Chaos Dwarfs at top quality the sooner the better, and for free, since this is a wish. And I don't wish a low level preorder. That's it

    I struggle to understand why people here is so extremely pessimistic about Game 3, so far I am very happy with what CA has done, in general
    If lots of people are buying the game, the pre-order budget is more likely to go down than up- it's an incentive to get people to buy the game. If people are buying it, the incentive is less important, not more important.

    At the end of the day, CA (and more importantly, GW/Sega) are companies, so profit is the most important. Selling the Chaos Dwarfs as a campaign pack makes them more money than giving it away as a pre-order. Full stop.
    More sense for them, no doubt

    But it is a bad thing for us, isn't it? Asking for money for something that could be possible to get for free? Preorder = day 0 DLC?

    I get why people expect this to happen. What buffles me to no end is people seemingly wanting it. Or saying that they will inmediately de-preorder the game if the preorder is a big faction, without seeing how it is done

    To the people who disagree with me saying 'I want Chaos Dwarfs at top quality, making them justice, the sooner the better and for free'... what part do you disagree with?

    If you could pick between top quality Chaos Dwarfs for free and the same quality Chaos Dwarfs as a 2023 expensive DLC, will you actually want the second option?? For real??
    I am willing to bet I have more skin in the Chaos Dwarf game than anyone on these forums. I'm talking serious moolah over about two decades if not more. And I am here to tell you I would be willing to pay a hefty premium to see them done right. Preorder, day zero, free doesn't sound as appealing to me as it seems to sound to you. You get what you pay for. I don't want the race to which I have committed incalculable hours and money to be some marketing gimmick. That's what preorders are.

    As for the, whole "immediately de-preordering the game without seeing how it is done." I am one of them, and have no shame about it. I enjoyed the Chaos Dwarfs before this trilogy, and they will be here long after this trilogy is a memory. I have a small treasure trove that has yet to be unpainted, and a pretty reliable community in my area with which to play filled with people who I love. This game is icing on the cake for me, and I am here for Chaos Dwarfs not the other way around. It's been that way since the leak back in, what? 2016? I mean... I only joined these forums in an effort to push back against the narrative that Chaos Dwarfs should be the preorder.

    So yeah, if they don't measure up to the quality that I expect then I will play with the Chaos Dwarfs mod on Warhammer 2, which I really enjoy, and play with/paint my little plastic toys, and you guys can enjoy this game to the fullest. It just wasn't for me. I'm willing to make that commitment because there is no reality in which Chaos Dwarfs can be done justice with a preorder. None. JungleElf pointed out in another thread that even ignoring the units and lords, the audio, architecture, and such alone demands a full campaign pack. And CA is NOT, no matter the mental gymnastics, going to commit resources to those things in something that is for the most part free.

    The reason it baffles you is because, for you, a slightly skimmed down Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't really register. You don't have a standard that it must measure to. They are what they are and you are just happy to have them. But for me it has years of head fantasy to live up to. I sit between patients at work thinking about what the music would sound like. What it would be like to see the obsidian ziggurats that I have been fantasizing about for ages. The dialogue that would exist between characters. And people come here and say, "Gosh, why wouldn't you just be happy with a reskinned free day zero preorder bonus!?" No, no I wouldn't. I am willing to lower my expectations to meet the reality of game production/development in the 2020s, but not to the level of a preorder.
    Fair enough! You made very good points

    I started playing in late 80's. Chaos Dwarfs are among my top 5 but they are not my favorite. Forgeworld was too expensive for me to play them beyond a bare minimum. They are my absolute top 1 in blood bowl, though

    So my standards are far lower than yours. They are still quite higher than you seem to believe, mind you

    One thing you may have not considered is that quality normally goes up with iterations. Expecting things to go perfect at the first try is not reallistic, even if it takes a lot of time. Look at skaven or wood elves for examples in the game. The best option in the long run is always getting something soon, and then see it regularly fixed and updated after feedback and real-life testing. This is the most fiable way to achieve high quality

    Anyway, I still stand for what I said. I have zero interest in DoW, and Nagash deserves waaaay better just to keep the game lore-friendly. Ogres (same budget problem), Hobgoblins, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh are good options too. But I won't accept a low-budget preorder at this point, the game is extremely successful, they have no excuses for that beyond excessive greed
    I said it on reddit earlier today, so I will say it here, too. I appreciate that kind of optimism and recognize that my fear and fanaticism in this is born out of some deeply rooted distrust. Like I said, once bitten twice shy. Ultimately I think we both want the same thing, being a full and well-done Chaos Dwarfs, it is just you believe that can be accomplished in a pre-order and I don't. I think it is fair that you argue your side! It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to believe that the quality of this preorder would outpace those in the past, I just don't think it outpaces enough to keep step with my expectations. I just can't imagine a pre-order for free/$10 that could deliver on what I want. And I am not willing to compromise regardless of ancillary perks.

    Hypothetically, were the Chaos Dwarfs to be released as a pre-order pack and I saw that I was dead wrong on every count. That they had a full and complete roster, unique music, unique architecture and battle visuals... the works, I would come here contrite, admit that I was wrong, and shell out to get them.

    I take a really hard stance because, 1. They are my favorite race by many many miles. I was just out taking a stroll with my wife and told her, much to her displeasure, that if they release new Chaos Dwarf casts with TOW I would be willing to pay just about any price. "You have two whole boxes filled with them!" It's not enough. I also acknowledge that this games from a place of privilege that I genuinely feel bad about. 2. I have this delusional belief that if I fight and argue hard enough, maybe somehow someway I can effect some sort of change. That's not the way the world works, but at this point it is a coping mechanism as much as anything, because I really will be upset if we get some watered down Chaos Dwarfs.

    All that to say, while we are on different sides of this, I think we both want the same end, and I appreciate the dialogue. If I come off a bit abrasive, I apologize.
    Dude, I get being a fan of something but this is seriously pushing into "Stan" territory. On the other hand I did crack up imagining that conversation with your wife.

    "Honey, I would love to visit the South of France when this Covid thing is over"

    "Not so fast, we need to keep in mind my substantial ongoing expenditure into Chaos Dwarf models and paraphernalia and its impact on the budget."
    I mean... if you want to make it personal that's cool.

    They are my hobby. I'm not going to be ashamed of it.

    I've made a real effort to be respectful on these forums, and I think my comments are evidence that I try to be very thoughtful in my responses to people. That's more than a lot here can say. But, if this is the turn you want to take in this discussion, have at it.
    You brought up all the personal stuff while the discussion was around Chaos Dwarfs (or other factions) being preorder. What does having a stroll with your wife have to do with Chaos Dwarf preorder likelihood? Your whole point seems to be that you have a deep personal relationship with this faction, so accusing me of "getting personal" is a bizarre accusation in the context here.
    Last I'll speak of it, but the "Dude, I get being a fan of something but this is seriously pushing into "Stan" territory" was the bit I was referring to, and I suspect you know that. You obviously meant that with some derision and intended insult. There is a right response to someone feeling insulted by a remark, whether intended or not, and this ain't it.

    I'll add: I have always found it funny that we are A-OK with people defining themselves by their occupation, religion, or politics. But when they define themselves by their hobbies we seem to think it is aberrant. Honestly, I think defining oneself by a hobby is MUCH healthier, but that's just me.
    If the shoe fits.

    Nothing wrong with defining yourself by your hobbies at all, it is quite common (sportsfans, musos, gymrats, gearheads, foodies, etc to name a few). But even the examples you gave occupation/religion/politics definitely have negative terms for people who become unreasonably invested (workaholics, religious fanatics, political militants).

    I think when you have crossed the point of accusing people who want the same thing as you about 90% as "not being true fans" or whatever then you have gone from being a fan to a Stan.
    Let's be honest though. You've just seen one youtube video about CD being a pre-order and have decided that was a good idea. Even though people have proven that notion as not compatible with precident, you keep moving the goalposts because of your own stubbornness.

    We proved to you that CD don't in fact fit in Warhammer 2 - you just said "no they can".

    We proved to you they don't have the budget in a pre-order to do them justice - you just said "you don't know the budget". When we know exactly the quality of preorders using game 1 and 2 as an example. You have ZERO evidence that the budget has gone up.

    We said you couldn't just reskin basic units of existing rosters and provided pictures - which you dismissed because you'd already decided you could.

    You have proven in that same vein that you are clearly unaware of what the model range even looks like by thinking you could just re-skin a war-wagon and a steam tank as their artillery pieces. And instead of admitting you were wrong, then proceeded to say we don't know what daemon models could be coming, when we know exactly, because we know the model range from GW and the rulebooks.




    So real question, why are you a CD pre-order Stan?

    Post edited by Commissar_G on
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  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,239

    Chaos Dwarfs seem like a shoe-in for preorder tbh, keeps with the Chaos preorder theme, can reuse assets for lots of things, they are appealing as a preorder race so will motivate purchases.

    I also reject they idea they will be done poorly due to being a preorder, Norsca were not done poorly at all. Just cause you like a faction is no justification for reinventing the wheel, Dark Elves/High Elves/Wood Elves reuse loads of stuff between them and still feel very fleshed out and unique.

    What also make sense is if they give a Chaos Dwarfs preorder with two LLs, the "no dlc for dlc" rule is firmly in the ground now, so CA could then do a Dwarf VS Chaos Dwarfs lord pack to bring them up to speed down the line. And if Dwarfs get an LL before the end of game 2 (I think there is a decent chance of Josef Bugman or the Engineer dude as FLC based on last hidden spot in Mortal Empires map being very mountainous), then a cross game lord pack in game 3 would bring them up to 6.

    Simply wont happen. Why give CDs away for free when CA can charge 14.99 a pop? They’re popular with the fan base; they have enough unique/major models to have a larger budget applied to them.

    Sure you can reuse Dwarf models but so what? TK reused VCount models for general/low tier units. The CDs have a lot of unique higher tier units which will cost more money to design.

    A race pack will always be seen as lower effort and that would not go down well.

    The CDs have the smallest of chances of being a pre order - almost certainly won’t happen.
    Interested in Sea Elves? Did you just call me a simpleton?

  • 445Aas445Aas Registered Users Posts: 175
    If it helps you @DrazhoaththeAshen, after i joined this trilogy with Warhammer 2, so far CA has released every DLC with every race/character i had previously hoped for or execeeded those expectations.
    It is one of the very few gaming companies i still have some element of trust in.
    I think chaos dwarfs will be fine, most likely as a campaign pack and we will get something else exciting as a preorder that nobody realy expected.
    Good luck to you and the chaos dwarfs.
  • The_RadudeThe_Radude Registered Users Posts: 337
    I hope that neither Chaos dwarfs nor Ogres will be the preorder.

    Cause that would mean only 2 LLs instead of 4 LLs and not as big of a roster so some fun units will not be with them for a long time.

    I bet nobody wants another Ghorgon/Jabberslythe situation again
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