WoC future (Sigvald)

KirGeo#5270

Didn't want to start a major topic but had to ask. Do you think Sigvald should be moved to Slaanesh in game 3?
With Archaon and Kholek leading WoC unaligned and Be'lakor leading DoC unaligned?
Since each mono god faction is a mix of Humans and Demons.
Don't see it devaluing the DLC unless someone can clarify.

Crossil

That is actually something we have discussed already.

Some think he has to be moved. Some even more radical ones think WoC will be straight up turned into Chaos Undivided as a whole, with Be'lakor joining them.

I believe that he will stay WoC and each god will get a representative in WoC. After all, it can't be undivided without those other representatives, since Undivided implies unitiy of all the different elements.

AxiosXiphos#9040

It would make sense - and the WoC DLC wouldn't really change; you would still need to buy it to access Sigvald.

However CA might not do it just to avoid any awkwardness and work on their behalf making all the Diplomacy VA and campaign mechanics.

KirGeo#5270

Thank you for the answers. Each WOC LL will probably get separate sub factions in game 3 anyway with update. So keeping him there and adding new LL for other gods is also a good option. Thought it might be less hassle the other way around but both works for me.
Just felt it would be weird if he is WoC and they don't get any major boost.

SerPus#7395

It's kinda weird. If CA wanted to make monogod races since the beginning then why did they put Sigvald to WoC DLC in the first place? Just to replace him 5 years later? If WoC were supposed to only get unaligned characters then why not just add someone else instead?

KirGeo#5270

SerPus said:

It's kinda weird. If CA wanted to make monogod races since the beginning then why did they put Sigvald to WoC DLC in the first place? Just to replace him 5 years later? If WoC were supposed to only get unaligned characters then why not just add someone else instead?

Maybe he was an easier lord to implement than others. Just a regular human skeleton.
Besides as mentioned above WoC could be all non-demon units of 4 gods combined. Which would add crazy value to the DLC without needing additional LL. Won't be much effort for CA to implement either, just updating the roster.

Forumaccountkroqgar

If there's a change in WoC, they'll be fused (except Sigvald) with Be'lakor in a shared race with different factions. Why do I think that? If they want to add more DLCs to undivided, it's better to have the race be a basic race, not a DLC one.

If WoC remain their separate race from Be'lakor they won't get any DLCs for them. DLC for DLC is probably already a hard sell for CA business wise, probably even a worse idea with a cheaper preorder pack like WoC.

SerPus#7395

KirGeo said:

Maybe he was an easier lord to implement than others.

There are plenty of unaligned characters who are just Chaos Warriors and don't require new fancy skeletons.

KirGeo said:

Besides as mentioned above WoC could be all non-demon units of 4 gods combined.

Yes, that's what they should be. The question is if they are going to get marked characters as well.

Crossil

yukontherun said:

If there's a change in WoC, they'll be fused (except Sigvald) with Be'lakor in a shared race with different factions. Why do I think that? If they want to add more DLCs to undivided, it's better to have the race be a basic race, not a DLC one.

If WoC remain their separate race from Be'lakor they won't get any DLCs for them. DLC for DLC is probably already a hard sell for CA business wise, probably even a worse idea with a cheaper preorder pack like WoC.

That makes no sense. Be'lakor being playable doesn't make WoC a base race.

Quite the opposite, a cheaper DLC is easier to justify. You have a race that's 20$ and you say "another 10 for the rest" vs a race that's 10$ with the same statement, and the latter sounds more reasonable.

KirGeo#5270

yukontherun said:

If there's a change in WoC, they'll be fused (except Sigvald) with Be'lakor in a shared race with different factions. Why do I think that? If they want to add more DLCs to undivided, it's better to have the race be a basic race, not a DLC one.

If WoC remain their separate race from Be'lakor they won't get any DLCs for them. DLC for DLC is probably already a hard sell for CA business wise, probably even a worse idea with a cheaper preorder pack like WoC.

Is there a need DLC for DLC with WoC. Are there a lot more unaligned WOC LL?
I know some lore but not too deep. Can't they just update WoC with new units from the respective monogod factions and future DLC. With new WoC LL going to monogods.

SakuraHeinz

Yes he should be moved, he stands for everything slaanesh and is basically slaaneshs adopted child I dont know how any slaanesh fan could be against moving him.

saweendra#3399

SakuraHeinz said:

Yes he should be moved, he stands for everything slaanesh and is basically slaaneshs adopted child I dont know how any slaanesh fan could be against moving him.

there are WoC fans as well you know the fact that he was in their army book and was part of their roster currently

MODIDDLY1#9212

saweendra said:

SakuraHeinz said:

Yes he should be moved, he stands for everything slaanesh and is basically slaaneshs adopted child I dont know how any slaanesh fan could be against moving him.

there are WoC fans as well you know the fact that he was in their army book and was part of their roster currently

True, but most of those who are asking for Sigvald to stay in WoC, seem to also think that Undivided should get access to all 4 of the mono-god factions which is so broken it hurts

saweendra#3399

MODIDDLY1 said:

saweendra said:

SakuraHeinz said:

Yes he should be moved, he stands for everything slaanesh and is basically slaaneshs adopted child I dont know how any slaanesh fan could be against moving him.

there are WoC fans as well you know the fact that he was in their army book and was part of their roster currently

True, but most of those who are asking for Sigvald to stay in WoC, seem to also think that Undivided should get access to all 4 of the mono-god factions which is so broken it hurts

as a roster whole no, but each character should have mechanic to pick up some mono god stuff from their respective god in camapgin only.

like sigvald having mechanic to pick up salneesh units

or archeon to all mono mortal units

but kholek shouldn't have such mechanic

sarthorial if made playble in game 3 should also get acess to tzeench daemon units trough mechanic

Warlocke

Chaos Undivided =/= Chaos Unaligned

Archaon is the grand marshal of the apocalypse. He doesn’t just lead unaligned Chaos Warriors, he leads all Chaos Warriors.

It should be:

Chaos Undivided (WoC): All Warriors of Chaos units, including god-aligned units
Monogod factions: god-specific Daemons and Warriors units
Chaos Undivided (DoC): all Daemons of Chaos units

Keep Sigvald where he is, add more god-aligned LLs to make Archaon’s coalition even better.

SerPus#7395

MODIDDLY1 said:

seem to also think that Undivided should get access to all 4 of the mono-god factions

Which is exactly what Chaos Undivided is. But getting just WoC with all the WoC stuff would be enough.

Forumaccountkroqgar

Crossil said:

yukontherun said:

If there's a change in WoC, they'll be fused (except Sigvald) with Be'lakor in a shared race with different factions. Why do I think that? If they want to add more DLCs to undivided, it's better to have the race be a basic race, not a DLC one.

If WoC remain their separate race from Be'lakor they won't get any DLCs for them. DLC for DLC is probably already a hard sell for CA business wise, probably even a worse idea with a cheaper preorder pack like WoC.

That makes no sense. Be'lakor being playable doesn't make WoC a base race.

Quite the opposite, a cheaper DLC is easier to justify. You have a race that's 20$ and you say "another 10 for the rest" vs a race that's 10$ with the same statement, and the latter sounds more reasonable.

The problem is never marketing IMO, angry customers are a minority, DLC for DLC was a problem because with the twisted and the twilight CA was giving away wood elves for half the price. They added Drycha so that the original pack remained attractive.

With a 10$ preorder pack it makes less sense for them to add a whole new lord with unique campaign mechanics to keep it attractive without hiking the price.

KirGeo said:

yukontherun said:

If there's a change in WoC, they'll be fused (except Sigvald) with Be'lakor in a shared race with different factions. Why do I think that? If they want to add more DLCs to undivided, it's better to have the race be a basic race, not a DLC one.

If WoC remain their separate race from Be'lakor they won't get any DLCs for them. DLC for DLC is probably already a hard sell for CA business wise, probably even a worse idea with a cheaper preorder pack like WoC.

Is there a need DLC for DLC with WoC. Are there a lot more unaligned WOC LL?
I know some lore but not too deep. Can't they just update WoC with new units from the respective monogod factions and future DLC. With new WoC LL going to monogods.

Is there a need? No, everything is optional.

Is there a possibility? That's for sure, I'm mostly thinking of Crom, but there are other LL.

KirGeo#5270

yukontherun said:

Crossil said:

yukontherun said:

If there's a change in WoC, they'll be fused (except Sigvald) with Be'lakor in a shared race with different factions. Why do I think that? If they want to add more DLCs to undivided, it's better to have the race be a basic race, not a DLC one.

If WoC remain their separate race from Be'lakor they won't get any DLCs for them. DLC for DLC is probably already a hard sell for CA business wise, probably even a worse idea with a cheaper preorder pack like WoC.

That makes no sense. Be'lakor being playable doesn't make WoC a base race.

Quite the opposite, a cheaper DLC is easier to justify. You have a race that's 20$ and you say "another 10 for the rest" vs a race that's 10$ with the same statement, and the latter sounds more reasonable.

The problem is never marketing IMO, angry customers are a minority, DLC for DLC was a problem because with the twisted and the twilight CA was giving away wood elves for half the price. They added Drycha so that the original pack remained attractive.

With a 10$ preorder pack it makes less sense for them to add a whole new lord with unique campaign mechanics to keep it attractive without hiking the price.

KirGeo said:

yukontherun said:

If there's a change in WoC, they'll be fused (except Sigvald) with Be'lakor in a shared race with different factions. Why do I think that? If they want to add more DLCs to undivided, it's better to have the race be a basic race, not a DLC one.

If WoC remain their separate race from Be'lakor they won't get any DLCs for them. DLC for DLC is probably already a hard sell for CA business wise, probably even a worse idea with a cheaper preorder pack like WoC.

Is there a need DLC for DLC with WoC. Are there a lot more unaligned WOC LL?
I know some lore but not too deep. Can't they just update WoC with new units from the respective monogod factions and future DLC. With new WoC LL going to monogods.

Is there a need? No, everything is optional.

Is there a possibility? That's for sure, I'm mostly thinking of Crom, but there are other LL.

The is there a need comment was cause I believe WE and BM did need an incentive as their race packs were poor compared to the race packs in TWW2 in my opinion. But I feel if sensible units from the mono gods are added to WOC in TWW3 that will more than make up for its value without needing an additional LL. They can add more WoC LL but don't need to incentivize buying like the other 2 races. All my opinion.

mecanojavi99#6562

SerPus said:

It's kinda weird. If CA wanted to make monogod races since the beginning then why did they put Sigvald to WoC DLC in the first place? Just to replace him 5 years later? If WoC were supposed to only get unaligned characters then why not just add someone else instead?

We don't really know how far ahead CA was thinking when they added Sigvald, at the moment maybe they thought about WoC having a mortal representative of each God.

saweendra#3399

mecanojavi99 said:

SerPus said:

It's kinda weird. If CA wanted to make monogod races since the beginning then why did they put Sigvald to WoC DLC in the first place? Just to replace him 5 years later? If WoC were supposed to only get unaligned characters then why not just add someone else instead?

We don't really know how far ahead CA was thinking when they added Sigvald, at the moment maybe they thought about WoC having a mortal representative of each God.

and it still should ,

SerPus#7395

mecanojavi99 said:

We don't really know how far ahead CA was thinking when they added Sigvald

But we do, thanks to the datamine.

CaesarSahlertz

They aren't going to move him. People have paid for content including him. There is a whole bunch of legal mumbo jumbo which would complicate the matter.

ArecBalrin#2350

I've tried explaining before, but any previously-released product can only be changed so much before there's an ethics problem. When people buy X, they have a reasonable expectation that it will remain X unless notice is given otherwise and such notices must come with assurances that X will remain X for at least a minimum amount of time. Here is the order of relevant events:

• CA announce Total War: Warhammer
  
• The intro trailer is released as the reveal trailer, showcasing four different races and hinting at Chaos
  
• CA reveal their intent is to make a trilogy, with a combined campaign including content of the trilogy
  
• At the same time they confirm there are four playable races included in game 1
  
• CA reveal Warriors of Chaos as a day-one pre-order DLC race, prompting backlash
  
• They respond with dev-posts from Mike Simpson and Rob Bartholomew, managing expectations in regards to how content is funded and what players are paying for
  
• Hidden among this is a little-realised tidbit: they wanted Chaos represented in game 1 as a game mechanic, but didn't have funding for it; day-one DLC would have provided a business-case to supply it
  
• Widley-misinterpreted as Chaos always going to be in the game in some basic form as a game mechanic, but the DLC allowed them to be a 'fully fleshed-out race'; this take directly conflicts with the dev-post
  
• Potential future-plans are leaked from a data-mine
  
• A CA employee states that they are out-of-date, inadvertently confirming it to be genuine and breaching a business norm on not commenting publicly about leaks
  
• These plans if up-to-date as well as genuine as of the time of the aforementioned dev-post, would conflict with what the dev-posts say about CA's position on what 'a race' is in WH and how it is distinct from others. IE; if at this point CA were planning on implementing Chaos races as mono-gods at some point, then Bartholomew was wrong when he said CA are treating Chaos Warriors and Daemons as separate: mono-god races implicitly combine both.
  

What was not said among these accounted events, was that we are actually buying legendary lord characters. Those characters are packaged within the races they belong to. If you bought WH1, the package contained Empire, Dwarfs, Greenskins and Vampire Counts, which in turn contained the characters. That is 'X', that is the expectation set at the time virtually everybody bought them. There was no room for interpretation that what we were actually buying were the characters, and those characters come with access to their respective race rosters.

That is however what was on offer when Markus Wulfheart was sold in The Hunter & The Beast: you didn't need to own WH1 to now have access to virtually the entire Empire roster in WH2. This disconnects the character from his race in terms of the product model, which neatly provides a way around the widespread impression people had of 'no DLC for DLC', because Markus wasn't an Empire DLC; he's not playable in WH1. He's a WH2 DLC.

With this category shift, The Twisted & The Twilight took it a step further by making the Sisters of Twlight give access to the Wood Elves in the same way for WH2. They are not 'DLC for DLC' because they are not Wood Elf DLC, they are WH2 DLC. Disregard that many players now see WH1 as just DLC for WH2, as it is effectively replaced by game 2 and serves to give access to the greater campaign of ME; the same could be the case for WH2 and all the DLC for it when WH3 releases.

When we buy something, our expectations of what it is should not be on shifting sands. Anyone who bought Warriors of Chaos did not do so thinking that they were buying 3 legendary lords that happen to have access to WoC units and mechanics.

If CA now interpret their products as 'characters with access to content' instead of 'races made up of content', then it would make sense for them to move Sigvald to Slaanesh, re-brand WoC as Chaos Undivided and change the rosters around however they like; because what players bought in WoC is Archeon, Kholek and Sigvald, not the Warriors of Chaos as a race, though that is what we thought at the time.

Why would players actually want WoC in their current state though? Well of course I want them improved, I just don't want it at the expense of CA being able to decide retro-actively that the Warhammer trilogy was always going to be three separate games and the parts which combine together are simply some bonus they graciously added, rather than a major selling-point from the beginning and the fuel for this mini-series' success.

mecanojavi99#6562

SerPus said:

mecanojavi99 said:

We don't really know how far ahead CA was thinking when they added Sigvald

But we do, thanks to the datamine.

I dont trust leaks and data mines and similar things to be honest.

Forumaccountkroqgar

CaesarSahlertz said:

They aren't going to move him. People have paid for content including him. There is a whole bunch of legal mumbo jumbo which would complicate the matter.

Not true. There's nothing legal about this, people have paid for WH1 DLC and gotten a DLC for the game WH1. What they were sold is never going to change.

If they wanted they could make Sigvald a skaven lord in WH3 without any kind of legal trouble. Coinsumer outrage is another matter, but those consumers have nothing to stand on.

It's the same as if in WH3 they decide to move Markus to some Khuresh island in Mortal Empires and quickly replace his lizardmen enemies with cathay AI. People would have a right to be angry, but not a leg to stand from a consumers rights PoV.

SerPus#7395

mecanojavi99 said:

I dont trust leaks and data mines and similar things to be honest.

That's on you. You can easily compare the leak from what we are getting.

CaesarSahlertz

yukontherun said:

CaesarSahlertz said:

They aren't going to move him. People have paid for content including him. There is a whole bunch of legal mumbo jumbo which would complicate the matter.

Not true. There's nothing legal about this, people have paid for WH1 DLC and gotten a DLC for the game WH1. What they were sold is never going to change.

If they wanted they could make Sigvald a skaven lord in WH3 without any kind of legal trouble. Coinsumer outrage is another matter, but those consumers have nothing to stand on.

It's the same as if in WH3 they decide to move Markus to some Khuresh island in Mortal Empires and quickly replace his lizardmen enemies with cathay AI. People would have a right to be angry, but not a leg to stand from a consumers rights PoV.

Actually yes true... Because a major selling point of game 1 and all content therein, was that it would carry on over to the other games. It even tells us so on the steam page. So changing it radically now, by removing a third of the LL content, even if replaced by another LL, it will no longer be the content paid for.

ArecBalrin#2350

yukontherun said:

CaesarSahlertz said:

They aren't going to move him. People have paid for content including him. There is a whole bunch of legal mumbo jumbo which would complicate the matter.

Not true. There's nothing legal about this, people have paid for WH1 DLC and gotten a DLC for the game WH1. What they were sold is never going to change.

If they wanted they could make Sigvald a skaven lord in WH3 without any kind of legal trouble. Coinsumer outrage is another matter, but those consumers have nothing to stand on.

It's the same as if in WH3 they decide to move Markus to some Khuresh island in Mortal Empires and quickly replace his lizardmen enemies with cathay AI. People would have a right to be angry, but not a leg to stand from a consumers rights PoV.

We actually don't know what the legality or not of it is, because the games industry as a whole pushes its luck every single year and normalises a new way of being abusive. The ethics we can definitely talk about though.

It's arguable that the success of the Warhammer trilogy so far has leant heavily on one leg: that it is a trilogy and CA revealed this to be the case long before the first game released, an that all three games would combined together.

Almost immediately there is a fudge which requires a leap-of-faith from players, which is trust that CA are in a position to abuse and have a moral obligation not to. I did not buy WH1 because I wanted WH1, even though legally and in custom, I bought WH1. I bought the first part of a trilogy, with future expectations that were deliberately set by CA.

Hell, I've bought DLC I'm not really that bothered about, because I want the complete WH trilogy, not each specific DLC by itself. There is value in continuity, coherence and completeness: it's the whole reason the MCU is the most successful entertainment franchise of all-time, despite not yet producing any single film that will be remembered in 30 years time. The whole of the thing will though.

ladymissfit#8688

He should be moved but still only be available to those who have the chaos DLC (well, the chaos DLC was poorly thought out to begin with lest we forget people were justifiably extremely outraged of its existence).

There's three general categories

• Warriors of Chaos which is made up of undivided mortals (might get access to some divided mortal units)
  
• Divided Chaos which is made up of the demonic and mortal followers of a particular god
  
• Demons of Chaos which is belakor's faction and made up of undivided demons.
  

Currently sigvald is in the Warriors group but he belongs in the divided of slaanesh and I believe the best way to do this is to just move him there as a second LL available to those who own the pack. archaon and kholek should stay where they are as undivided mortals but I could see them adding a potential 4th lord to the pack in hindsight just to smooth things over but it wouldn't be necessary.

honestly they should just make the lords available to anyone in WIII regardless of if they own it in W1 or not. it's really not a big deal.

Omega_Warrior

1. It's unlikely CA will want to remove content from an already established paid DLC
2. Champions of certain gods joining up with the undivided is well established lore and there's no particular need to remove him
3. It's highly optimistic that WoC will get 3 new lords. That's a lot of content added for a released race and one extra lord per god is unlikely to happen.
4. Given the high number of base races means monogods likely won't get as much attention as previous base races and have less to start. They likely will not exceed 3-4 LLs and as such there isn't a dire need for god aligned characters to fill out the monogods.
5. As per point 4, this leaves a chance that some "god aligned" characters can still be used to pad out the undivided races, such as sayl for WoC or one of the Daemons for DoC.

MODIDDLY1#9212

Omega_Warrior said:

2. Champions of certain gods joining up with the undivided is well established lore and there's no particular need to remove him
.

I don't know man, it seems really weird to make each god have it's own faction, and not have their most devout mortal follower in it. Seeing Vilitch, Festus, Valkia, and Sigvald in WoC and not their gods factions would be a major letdown to me.