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I hope Warhammer 3 multiplayer has some pre-built armies for new players

Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,358
For 99% of the people on this forum, this is probably a non-issue. Most of you are deeply familiar with all the units and enjoy the customization part. However for many new and casual players, the army-building part is intimidating. What units am I supposed to bring? What is a good army composition? How many chevrons, spells, items, mounts should I invest in? While Warhammer 2 does have an RNG button, they often create very bad builds.

This is called Decision Paralysis or Analysis paralysis. Where a person is given so many choices and options that it overwhelms and prevents them from making a decision and moving forward.

What I would like to see is for there to be a pre-built army for each race that are fairly easy to use, well rounded, and thematically appropriate. A new player looking to dip their toe into multiplayer could be handed one of these pre-built armies and jump right in. Or they could take that pre-built army and tinker with it a little bit to experiment with customization.

The units used would probably need to be constrained to base-game units because different people would have different combinations of DLC. However that should still allow for a fairly robust army. This would be a good opportunity for CA to solicit advice from some folks in the multiplayer community as they would know best how to build a well rounded army.

It's all about encouraging more people to get into multiplayer. The easier we can make that process, the more people will play.

Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,669
    I think that's really not the barrier. People are pretty good from campaign at making generically "useful" armies with a few cav, a few infantry, etc... But none of those armies will be useful in multiplayer because multiplayer is always about what you think you're going to face.

    basically i think people enjoy making armies that look good on paper, but there's no way to communicate what is a decent army for MP through a few examples.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,358
    edited May 14
    eumaies said:

    I think that's really not the barrier. People are pretty good from campaign at making generically "useful" armies with a few cav, a few infantry, etc... But none of those armies will be useful in multiplayer because multiplayer is always about what you think you're going to face.

    basically i think people enjoy making armies that look good on paper, but there's no way to communicate what is a decent army for MP through a few examples.

    I know it's real because I have felt it myself when I was starting out. Staring at the empty army builder screen, not sure what sort of army is good for multiplayer, feeling overwhelmed, and then going back to campaign.

    Campaign does this already by giving you a small, pre-built starting army and then giving you very limited choices for what to build.

    I think it's important not to get hung up on the best sort of army Empire should build for fighting Vampire Count, versus the best sort of army Empire should build versus Skaven. They are new players and they're probably going to lose anyway. Just give them a solid, easy to use, and thematic Empire army and let em get their feet wet.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,669
    Jman5 said:

    eumaies said:

    I think that's really not the barrier. People are pretty good from campaign at making generically "useful" armies with a few cav, a few infantry, etc... But none of those armies will be useful in multiplayer because multiplayer is always about what you think you're going to face.

    basically i think people enjoy making armies that look good on paper, but there's no way to communicate what is a decent army for MP through a few examples.

    I know it's real because I have felt it myself when I was starting out. Staring at the empty army builder screen, not sure what sort of army is good for multiplayer, feeling overwhelmed, and then going back to campaign.

    Campaign does this already by giving you a small, pre-built starting army and then giving you very limited choices for what to build.

    I think it's important not to get hung up on the best sort of army Empire should build for fighting Vampire Count, versus the best sort of army Empire should build versus Skaven. They are new players and they're probably going to lose anyway. Just give them a solid, easy to use, and thematic Empire army and let em get their feet wet.
    I don't get it though, there is no such thing as a "good" army to recommend to you in that situation. If you were to take a stab at random you'd probably combine some infantry some cav and some ranged units right? And that would be as good as anything one could hand to you.

    I guess you could be handed an army that has a mix of AP and non-AP, a little magic damage, a mage (with not too many spells), a lord with not too many items. But without a tutorial on *why* that army makes sense it won't really be a good army nor would it teach you anything.

    I guess in defense of your idea you could have a few armies, all with a mage, so people know a "good" army always has a mage. And the characters could not bring too many items so people get a sense you don't want to bring all your items and spells. Or at the extreme of the armies had descriptive labels/names you could try to get across the synergy (i.e. rush and swarm army) or something like that.

    But if they gave you those armies and you played and lost badly, would you feel any less overwhelmed? I'm not sure why, since the armies would still lose really badly when taken vs the wrong opponents.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,358
    It's about getting new players past the hump of having to create an army from scratch. I think it's an exaggeration to say that you can't build a general purpose army that's decent enough and thematic. It doesn't have to be super competitive. Just well balanced most of the time against non-exotic armies. Gives people a foundation to work from as well. They start with that army and maybe it doesn't go well so they sub out one unit for another and try again.

    With the changes to multiplayer in Warhammer 3 with reinforcements, counterpicking should be less of a big deal so you can afford to be more generic in your starting army.

    Any game where you're just inundated with choice, it's a good idea to have some sort of default pre-built option for people who feel like they can't or don't want to handle the customization part yet. This is a low-cost addition to the game that I think could make a difference for a lot of new players. Heck, they could probably outsource this to members of the community like Turin, Loremaster of Sotek, or Zerkovich and get them to suggest some builds.
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 2,844
    edited May 14
    The problem is that army building is a very important aspect of playing. There is no one Empire army that will perform equally well against all 25 other races.(yes 26, 15+6=21 + pre order race = 22 + 2 race packs = 24 and we're probably getting a couple more on top) You have to tailor it to the race you're fighting against. So if they're going to do that they need to make 26x26=676 pre made armies for any possible match up the player might find themselves in. And those pre made armies will constantly have to be changed as balanced patches come out, price of units change, stats change, mechanics/effects change, etc.

    Right now I tell new players the best thing to do would be to watch one of turins recent tournaments find the faction you want to try and copy builds you see from those players. I started playing Norsca using Turins Norsca guide. His guide is no longer viable as the meta has changed a lot. But it was a good starting point and I don't really need a guide anymore.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 728
    edited May 15
    I think what needed is something like a newbie/introduction guide. I tried to distill the mechanics at some point:
    what decides if a unit will be good against another unit is in order of importance:

    1: Unit type; Fast melee >> ranged >> slow melee >> fast melee*
    2: Tier; higher tier will generally beat lower tier in melee, this is often due to higher armor and low tier not being AP.
    conversely; the lower the tier, the more hitpoints a unit will have making it stronger against ranged.
    (0:) This means that high tier melee while stronger in melee is kept in check by ranged and will be weak against ranged factions unless combined with fast melee that takes out the ranged units.
    3: Armor/AP: In some matchups armor/AP is more decisive than tier, fx low tier great weapon infantry will beat chosen with great weapons, but tier is more universal and will in some cases overcome even AP vs armor
    4: Anti-x : bonus vs large or infantry can be decisive, especially with charge defense this can overcome all other factors
    5: faction: some factions are better at certain unittypes than others, this can typically increase or decrease cost/strength by up to ca 20%

    *other unit types:
    infantry skirmish beat slow melee and light cavalry but loses to ranged in a shootout (but often stronger in melee)
    cav skirmish beats heavy cavalry, usually slight advantage to slow melee
    monster >> cavalry >> chariot >> lower tier infantry >> Monster
    monstrous infantry will beat SE/chariots if they surround them, but are generally weaker than monsters vs other unitypes
    polearm heavily antilarge, terrible vs infantry
    spear good vs large, not so good vs infantry
    high tier polearm more like spear - generally - ie most polearm high tier units are still decent vs infantry

    finally fast melee while generally weaker in melee can make up for it by using mobility to gang up and using high charge bonus often

    But the general rules can never fully capture all interactions, so if you could hover a mouse over a different unit and see a prediction of who would win gold for gold that would help a lot.

    But yeah before i started playing MP i ran like a gazillion tests and managed to grasp the fundamentals. that allowed me to get a 50% winrate almost immediately, and while my armybuilds generally didnt survive long it gave me something to build on, and i wish something like this had been available. probably needs a little fleshing out tho. And still needs some words on each faction; their strengths and weaknesses.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,358

    The problem is that army building is a very important aspect of playing. There is no one Empire army that will perform equally well against all 25 other races.(yes 26, 15+6=21 + pre order race = 22 + 2 race packs = 24 and we're probably getting a couple more on top) You have to tailor it to the race you're fighting against. So if they're going to do that they need to make 26x26=676 pre made armies for any possible match up the player might find themselves in. And those pre made armies will constantly have to be changed as balanced patches come out, price of units change, stats change, mechanics/effects change, etc.

    Right now I tell new players the best thing to do would be to watch one of turins recent tournaments find the faction you want to try and copy builds you see from those players. I started playing Norsca using Turins Norsca guide. His guide is no longer viable as the meta has changed a lot. But it was a good starting point and I don't really need a guide anymore.

    Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You don't need to give new players an army that will perform equally well against all 25 races. You just need one that:
    1. Follows general principles for good army creation in Warhammer. For example, making sure they have a caster with not too many spells.
    2. Is easy to use.
    3. Is thematic for the race.

    Just give them some sort of starting foundation to work from is all I ask. If it only helps bring in just 1% more players into the multiplayer scene it will be worth the absolute minimal effort this would take to implement.

    We want more people playing multiplayer right? Finding barriers to entry and removing them will do that.
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 2,844
    Jman5 said:

    The problem is that army building is a very important aspect of playing. There is no one Empire army that will perform equally well against all 25 other races.(yes 26, 15+6=21 + pre order race = 22 + 2 race packs = 24 and we're probably getting a couple more on top) You have to tailor it to the race you're fighting against. So if they're going to do that they need to make 26x26=676 pre made armies for any possible match up the player might find themselves in. And those pre made armies will constantly have to be changed as balanced patches come out, price of units change, stats change, mechanics/effects change, etc.

    Right now I tell new players the best thing to do would be to watch one of turins recent tournaments find the faction you want to try and copy builds you see from those players. I started playing Norsca using Turins Norsca guide. His guide is no longer viable as the meta has changed a lot. But it was a good starting point and I don't really need a guide anymore.

    Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You don't need to give new players an army that will perform equally well against all 25 races. You just need one that:
    1. Follows general principles for good army creation in Warhammer. For example, making sure they have a caster with not too many spells.
    2. Is easy to use.
    3. Is thematic for the race.

    Just give them some sort of starting foundation to work from is all I ask. If it only helps bring in just 1% more players into the multiplayer scene it will be worth the absolute minimal effort this would take to implement.

    We want more people playing multiplayer right? Finding barriers to entry and removing them will do that.
    I'm pretty sure they already have that. That random army you start with when you pick your faction is exactly that. Thats a pool of premade armies the AI tossed together.



    I mean they say random in that video but there is in fact limited pool of builds the AI draws from.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,358
    edited May 16

    Jman5 said:

    The problem is that army building is a very important aspect of playing. There is no one Empire army that will perform equally well against all 25 other races.(yes 26, 15+6=21 + pre order race = 22 + 2 race packs = 24 and we're probably getting a couple more on top) You have to tailor it to the race you're fighting against. So if they're going to do that they need to make 26x26=676 pre made armies for any possible match up the player might find themselves in. And those pre made armies will constantly have to be changed as balanced patches come out, price of units change, stats change, mechanics/effects change, etc.

    Right now I tell new players the best thing to do would be to watch one of turins recent tournaments find the faction you want to try and copy builds you see from those players. I started playing Norsca using Turins Norsca guide. His guide is no longer viable as the meta has changed a lot. But it was a good starting point and I don't really need a guide anymore.

    Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You don't need to give new players an army that will perform equally well against all 25 races. You just need one that:
    1. Follows general principles for good army creation in Warhammer. For example, making sure they have a caster with not too many spells.
    2. Is easy to use.
    3. Is thematic for the race.

    Just give them some sort of starting foundation to work from is all I ask. If it only helps bring in just 1% more players into the multiplayer scene it will be worth the absolute minimal effort this would take to implement.

    We want more people playing multiplayer right? Finding barriers to entry and removing them will do that.
    I'm pretty sure they already have that. That random army you start with when you pick your faction is exactly that. Thats a pool of premade armies the AI tossed together.



    I mean they say random in that video but there is in fact limited pool of builds the AI draws from.
    My problem with the auto-generated armies is that:
    1. they pick every spell in a spell caster roster. Not only a waste of money, but bad for new players.
    2. They never pick the Lord/heroes items
    3. They sometimes don't pick casters.
    4. they seem obsessed with giving everything a million chevrons.
    5. Any faction with campaign only units will get pulled into the RNG (ie: state troops, and blessed spawn)

    Most important of all:
    5. You can't even use it anymore in quickbattle because of unit caps.

    I mean if CA really wanted to go all out, they could create 3 or 4 different armies per faction and give the player a button so you could cycle through them. This would largely solve the problem you guys put forward of different army compositions being better/worse against different factions. I set my sights lower and am only asking for one.

    The thing I like about pre-built armies is that it gives new players the confidence that this build has at least been vetted by someone who supposedly knows what they are doing. Whether they do or not, is another question, but as long as the player believes that, it's all good.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 149
    I think pre-built armies will only make it worse for new players. Meta changes all the time and it is not possible to have pre built armies that are any good unless a top player updates them regularly, which is not something that CA would do.

    Instead of the new players learning army building, they might rely on the prebuilt army and keep losing instead of finding out the best builds for themselves.

    I think a link to established channels with guides would be enough, e.g. when a new player clicks on multiplayer, they get given the links to Turin, HW and other channels where there are tutorials and competitive games to learn from. This will be much more up to date than any pre built army.
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Registered Users Posts: 436
    I don't think prebuilt armies would solve the problem of the learning curve. They would more likely make it worse. Sure you could pick Grom, River troll hag, some stone trolls, and a mix of four spider rider archers 2 wolf rider archers, and some chaff. That's good against nearly everything but that's a balance issue in itself. A high elf army that started with 5 spearmen and some archers and silver helms with Teclis and a metal mage might do ok against empire--or it might not; it's fairly demanding to play. But against dwarfs it would be a death sentence.

    I could see two options that would potentially work. The first is just updating and improving the autogen armies. Always pack a caster, drop non-essential spells, fewer chevrons, pick the good items. Everyone understands that autogen armies are a roll of the dice and getting rolled when playing one makes you think, "I could do better" rather than "this game is terrible." Still you'd need the newbie to pick autogen. The other option would be for the game to come preloaded with sample armies (or army cores) for every matchup. Hire Felkon to do it and maybe pay him to update them every six months to each year. That would clearly communicate that builds are matchup specific and there is no one build to rule them all. But you'd have trouble with DLCs because you would either have to **** the armies to not include DLC or have different armies depending on what DLC you have.

    Of the options, I think preloading a Felkon style core race+FLC only prebuilt army would probably be the best way to go. But it's no panacea
  • Uli209Uli209 Registered Users Posts: 2
    Making my first post on these forums to say I 100% agree with Jman5 that Warhammer 3 Multiplayer NEEDS pre-built army compositions at launch or they will miss their biggest opportunity to bring in new players into multiplayer. As a newer player in multiplayer myself, I can confirm the army building screen is the most intimidating thing to the new player experience. It honestly was the one thing that kept me away from multiplayer.

    If you look at a game like hearthstone, a trading card game, they offer basic 'core' decks for new players to learn the flavor of their class and is a great starting point that brings players in. They also have an auto-fill button when you build a new deck that nobody uses because it doesn't build a competitive deck and usually doesn't make any sense (much like the current auto-fill WH2 uses).

    I believe Warhammer 3's launch will be the last big boom of new players to the trilogy and the best opportunity for the multiplayer scene to grow. If all the new players have to help them learn multiplayer is the current auto-fill button, than a lot of them will just give up.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,358
    Uli209 said:

    Making my first post on these forums to say I 100% agree with Jman5 that Warhammer 3 Multiplayer NEEDS pre-built army compositions at launch or they will miss their biggest opportunity to bring in new players into multiplayer. As a newer player in multiplayer myself, I can confirm the army building screen is the most intimidating thing to the new player experience. It honestly was the one thing that kept me away from multiplayer.

    If you look at a game like hearthstone, a trading card game, they offer basic 'core' decks for new players to learn the flavor of their class and is a great starting point that brings players in. They also have an auto-fill button when you build a new deck that nobody uses because it doesn't build a competitive deck and usually doesn't make any sense (much like the current auto-fill WH2 uses).

    I believe Warhammer 3's launch will be the last big boom of new players to the trilogy and the best opportunity for the multiplayer scene to grow. If all the new players have to help them learn multiplayer is the current auto-fill button, than a lot of them will just give up.

    Thank you! It's never easy trying to explain to veterans what sort of features new players would benefit from. For them it's all about efficiencies and min-maxing. For new players, it's about narrowing choices so they don't feel overwhelmed, finding ways to give them confidence, and to ease them into things.

    The fewer decisions the new player has the make the better. Leave that for later once they've gotten into it.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,669
    You guys have convinced me; it can’t hurt. My own experience is as a beginner to MP but I had previously played campaign and tabletop so didn’t have the same trepidation about what an army looks like.
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Registered Users Posts: 436
    One other possibility: a "meta" button. Click it and it loads whatever CAs servers show is the most popular army for the matchup.

    Facing dwarves with high elves? Click Meta and Allarielle, 2x noble chariots, 3 swordmasters, 4 white lions, an eagle, and a basic archer unit pops up.

    Of course CA would have to track the metagame to do it but I expect it could be done. DLC might also be a problem. Maybe it would randomly spend the points for DLC units you don't have. Or maybe it would have a unit fallback table--if you don't have the huntsmen dlc, it gives you crossbowmen instead.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,305
    Jman5 said:

    For 99% of the people on this forum, this is probably a non-issue. Most of you are deeply familiar with all the units and enjoy the customization part. However for many new and casual players, the army-building part is intimidating. What units am I supposed to bring? What is a good army composition? How many chevrons, spells, items, mounts should I invest in? While Warhammer 2 does have an RNG button, they often create very bad builds.

    This is called Decision Paralysis or Analysis paralysis. Where a person is given so many choices and options that it overwhelms and prevents them from making a decision and moving forward.

    What I would like to see is for there to be a pre-built army for each race that are fairly easy to use, well rounded, and thematically appropriate. A new player looking to dip their toe into multiplayer could be handed one of these pre-built armies and jump right in. Or they could take that pre-built army and tinker with it a little bit to experiment with customization.

    The units used would probably need to be constrained to base-game units because different people would have different combinations of DLC. However that should still allow for a fairly robust army. This would be a good opportunity for CA to solicit advice from some folks in the multiplayer community as they would know best how to build a well rounded army.

    It's all about encouraging more people to get into multiplayer. The easier we can make that process, the more people will play.

    I was hesitant about the idea when I read the title because no premise build is going to prepare you for multiplayer, but after reading your post I do see your point about having some thematic armies just for noobs to have some fun in lobby and not worry about what build they’re going to bring. I think it’s a good idea.
  • Triumph4meTriumph4me Registered Users Posts: 123
    edited June 10
    Jman5 said:

    For 99% of the people on this forum, this is probably a non-issue. Most of you are deeply familiar with all the units and enjoy the customization part. However for many new and casual players, the army-building part is intimidating. What units am I supposed to bring? What is a good army composition? How many chevrons, spells, items, mounts should I invest in? While Warhammer 2 does have an RNG button, they often create very bad builds.

    This is called Decision Paralysis or Analysis paralysis. Where a person is given so many choices and options that it overwhelms and prevents them from making a decision and moving forward.

    What I would like to see is for there to be a pre-built army for each race that are fairly easy to use, well rounded, and thematically appropriate. A new player looking to dip their toe into multiplayer could be handed one of these pre-built armies and jump right in. Or they could take that pre-built army and tinker with it a little bit to experiment with customization.

    The units used would probably need to be constrained to base-game units because different people would have different combinations of DLC. However that should still allow for a fairly robust army. This would be a good opportunity for CA to solicit advice from some folks in the multiplayer community as they would know best how to build a well rounded army.

    It's all about encouraging more people to get into multiplayer. The easier we can make that process, the more people will play.

    Hey bro, first of all I play MP regularly and having even matches vs some tournament players. Im not a Super top player but well by saying that I mean that Im no rookie to what MP is.

    My advice on doing well in MP is, instead of being a coward and going for a counterpick (like many people do) You can kinda play what ever vs anything

    Ofc there are obiuously a few terrible match ups in wich you probably will just lose if he counterpicks you but still.

    Let's say you pick The Empire and you are facing the Dark elves. You need to aknowledge where you can beat the DE.

    - The infantry fight should go his way so its quite pointless to invest heavily on a really strong infantry core.
    - The missile fights should go to you so here is where you want to have your punching units
    - The cav departmenet could go either way since Demys r strong but they dont trade well with coldones. Coldones r way cheaper and they still deal quite alot of damage to the demys so its gona be more or less 3 coldones vs 2 demys (if u get 2 demys)Tho often you simply wanna bring 1 demy and probaly 3 emp knights along with pistoliers (so u dominate the mobility game)

    So you want your weak frontline to just get butchered and meanwhile this happends you make sure ur ranged units and cav beat the dark elf mobility. Once you have done that you can pretty much dominate how the battle is going to be.

    This was just an example. But its like this most of the matches, recognice where your faction is stronger than the enemy faction and try to either win the mobility game or simply secure your back line.

    Its a pretty basic guide I guess but all you need to get better at MP is to play MP and try out your own builds :) GL there!
  • Tarukaze_MortTarukaze_Mort Registered Users Posts: 2
    Why overcomplicate this?

    Simply add a way for players to share their saved army compositions in game. Add the player's steam name and allow them to tag it with factions its intended to work against.

    New player picks Empire, doesn't know what to take Vs Dwarfs? Click a button, get a list of Empire armies tagged "vs. Dwarfs" with the name of the creating player and a short name / description of how it plays (rush/kite/balanced/etc).

    Add options to sort the list by popularity / recent first, and throw in some sort of reward system for having somebody win with your premade army, and you have a self updating system that narrows down a new persons options and lets veterans show off and possibly benefit from it. Plus since it's not a single set build per race, vets can't predict what the new player will bring.

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