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No "update" to Warriors of Chaos

bradleyvincentwellsbradleyvincentwells Registered Users Posts: 335
edited May 2021 in General Discussion
This is an observation. Not something a dev or a person at Creative Assembly said.

The recent live stream showcasing Khorne's units for TW:WH3 was interesting for a number of reasons. One of those reasons involved a unit titled "Chaos Warriors of Khorne." These units looked like Khorne-skinned versions of the "Chaos Warriors" unit from the Warriors of Chaos faction from TW:WH1.

When you look at the unit card stats, there are differences. These differences are expected, but worth noting (screen cap taken from ItalianSpartacus' live stream):





Seeing this, it makes me wonder if THIS is the actual rework to Warriors of Chaos that many have wanted since the first game. By "this" I mean flavoring each of the Chaos units with god-specific traits (ex: Frenzy for Khorne) and stats. If so, what does this mean for the Warriors of Chaos faction in the third game?

Personally, I would have no issue with CA simply doing away with the Warriors of Chaos faction. It just seems bland and redundant now that we know that monogods are in TW:WH3 and that units will get flavored to their respective gods. Additionally, a WoC legendary lord like Sigvald clearly needs to move over to the Slaanesh faction in the 3rd game. Finally, I don't see WoC as a Chaos Undivided faction. It is more of a Chaos Neutral or Chaos "Blah" faction now. It was flawed when it came out, and it looks even worse now after the Khorne reveal. However, I understand the problems with eliminating the faction considering people paid for it.

I am curious to see how CA will resolve this. I do not think the WoC faction simply needs a stat update and a few new mechanics. The faction itself seems worthless now. Perhaps the best solution for the third game is to dissolve it and parse the LLs out to various new factions. I would assume the Sigvald would go to Slaanesh while Archaon and Kolek would reside in a new Chaos Undivided faction with Bel'Akor as another LL. For the people that purchased the WoC DLC, they would unlock Achaon, Sigvald, and Kolek for their respective factions in the third game's version of Mortal Empires.

Overall, I love what the new Khorne units seem to offer. Excited to see the next batch of Chaos units.
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Comments

  • KirGeoKirGeo Registered Users Posts: 1,000
    edited May 2021
    I had asked something similar a few days ago. If people want to go through that thread. So new ideas can be discussed here instead of repeating the same.

    WOC FUTURE (SIGVALD)

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/289437/woc-future-sigvald/p1
    We want all the factions Dogs of War, Araby, Ind, Kuresh, Nippon, Hobgoblin Khanate. Milk us CA.
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Registered Users Posts: 9,720
    Don't you put that evil on us!

    WoC must be updated.
    Glory matters not.

  • IceDIceD Member NetherlandsRegistered Users Posts: 611
    Listen, I truly believe that WoC will be reworked the same time the so called “immortal empires” campaign will be released. If you have all 3 games, the WOC DLC, Archaon will get all mortal units from the Monogod roster, Sigvald will go to Slaanesh faction, and Be’lakor will lead DoC undivided. This will solve any issues.

    Archaon/Kholek: WoC Undivided.
    Be’lakor: DoC undivided.
    A khorne faction
    A nurgle faction
    A slaanesh faction
    And a Tzeentch faction.

    I dont really see any other option.
    Fear me, mortals, for I am the Anointed, the Favoured Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall. - Archaon, Lord of the End Times.

    TEAM - CHAOS
  • EmeraldThanatosEmeraldThanatos Registered Users Posts: 2,910
    Goatforce said:

    Sorry but what? How does seeing the stats of a Khorne warrior invalidate Undivided? That makes no sense.

    WoC represents the mortals of Chaos as a whole, and has a place in the series and needs an update - what will likely happen is that WoC will get access to the mortal units of all Monos, as well as a campaign rework to make them hopefully fun to play.

    Undivided Chaos is a thing, deleting it from the game would be utterly ridiculous, beyond the issue of removing a paid for addition.

    Besides, I'd say WoC's main problems are an uninteresting campaign, rather than a bad roster. Yes, it needs more units, and we've got those now, but what is there is pretty solid for the most part.
    Ranking of all Total War games I've played:
    1. Three kingdoms
    2. Attila
    3. Warhammer (1, 2 & 3)
    4. Medieval 2
    5. Shogun 2
    6. Thrones
    7. Rome 2
    8. Napoleon
    9. Empire


  • KirGeoKirGeo Registered Users Posts: 1,000
    After seeing the gameplay and the previous discussions. I feel like each WoC should get access to mortal units that will shore up and weakness they have from the army book.

    Maybe Sigvald moved to Slaanesh ( community seems 50/50 on it).

    Finally the LL getting relevant mark of chaos to add to their units. Like Archaon getting all 4 while Sigvald only gets Slaanesh if his is your main lord.

    WoC definitely some kind of shake up in game 3.
    We want all the factions Dogs of War, Araby, Ind, Kuresh, Nippon, Hobgoblin Khanate. Milk us CA.
  • hillbillymachinegunhillbillymachinegun Registered Users Posts: 392
    I think they'll replace Warriors of Chaos with Chaos Undivided. Archaon and Kholek will stay on Chaos Undivided, Sigvald will get moved to Slaanesh, and Be'lakor will be added to Chaos Undivided.

    This could be treated as the Wood Elves were, with their split elven and tree spirit unit roster. Archaon would not be able to recruit daemonic units and Be'lakor would not be able to recruit mortal units, at least not without an upkeep penalty or reaching some campaign objective first.
  • bradleyvincentwellsbradleyvincentwells Registered Users Posts: 335
    Goatforce said:

    Sorry but what? How does seeing the stats of a Khorne warrior invalidate Undivided? That makes no sense.

    WoC represents the mortals of Chaos as a whole, and has a place in the series and needs an update - what will likely happen is that WoC will get access to the mortal units of all Monos, as well as a campaign rework to make them hopefully fun to play.

    Undivided Chaos is a thing, deleting it from the game would be utterly ridiculous, beyond the issue of removing a paid for addition.

    Well, mortals of Chaos are clearly part of each of the monogod factions. Why would someone want to play "generic" Warriors of Chaos when the same units are offered in the Khorne, Tzeentch, etc. factions with more flavor? Also, WoC does not represent just the mortals. Changer of Ways (which is a daemon, I believe) is a lord for that faction. And since the Daemon factions have mortal Chaos warriors as part of their ranks, I just don't see how WoC represents the mortals of Chaos anymore.

    Maybe I'm missing something.

  • KirGeoKirGeo Registered Users Posts: 1,000
    IceD said:

    Listen, I truly believe that WoC will be reworked the same time the so called “immortal empires” campaign will be released. If you have all 3 games, the WOC DLC, Archaon will get all mortal units from the Monogod roster, Sigvald will go to Slaanesh faction, and Be’lakor will lead DoC undivided. This will solve any issues.

    Archaon/Kholek: WoC Undivided.
    Be’lakor: DoC undivided.
    A khorne faction
    A nurgle faction
    A slaanesh faction
    And a Tzeentch faction.

    I dont really see any other option.

    This would be best imo.
    And would allow adding of more unaligned lords (I am assured there are a few) to be added to the game with LP.

    P.S add marks of chaos to BM in game 3 CA.
    We want all the factions Dogs of War, Araby, Ind, Kuresh, Nippon, Hobgoblin Khanate. Milk us CA.
  • makar55makar55 Registered Users Posts: 2,955
    These skulls on their armor could use some dirt.

    Otherwise we can pretend its Predator cleaning them one by one for skulls armor.
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 8,641

    Goatforce said:

    Sorry but what? How does seeing the stats of a Khorne warrior invalidate Undivided? That makes no sense.

    WoC represents the mortals of Chaos as a whole, and has a place in the series and needs an update - what will likely happen is that WoC will get access to the mortal units of all Monos, as well as a campaign rework to make them hopefully fun to play.

    Undivided Chaos is a thing, deleting it from the game would be utterly ridiculous, beyond the issue of removing a paid for addition.

    Well, mortals of Chaos are clearly part of each of the monogod factions. Why would someone want to play "generic" Warriors of Chaos when the same units are offered in the Khorne, Tzeentch, etc. factions with more flavor? Also, WoC does not represent just the mortals. Changer of Ways (which is a daemon, I believe) is a lord for that faction. And since the Daemon factions have mortal Chaos warriors as part of their ranks, I just don't see how WoC represents the mortals of Chaos anymore.

    Maybe I'm missing something.

    Last time I checked WoC was purely mortals + Dragon Ogres, Sarthorael is a special thing from the Campaign, or suddenly Norsca is no longer a mortal race because they can get a Lord of Change in the Campaign?
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  • ArchDemonArchDemon Registered Users Posts: 126

    Goatforce said:

    Sorry but what? How does seeing the stats of a Khorne warrior invalidate Undivided? That makes no sense.

    WoC represents the mortals of Chaos as a whole, and has a place in the series and needs an update - what will likely happen is that WoC will get access to the mortal units of all Monos, as well as a campaign rework to make them hopefully fun to play.

    Undivided Chaos is a thing, deleting it from the game would be utterly ridiculous, beyond the issue of removing a paid for addition.

    Well, mortals of Chaos are clearly part of each of the monogod factions. Why would someone want to play "generic" Warriors of Chaos when the same units are offered in the Khorne, Tzeentch, etc. factions with more flavor? Also, WoC does not represent just the mortals. Changer of Ways (which is a daemon, I believe) is a lord for that faction. And since the Daemon factions have mortal Chaos warriors as part of their ranks, I just don't see how WoC represents the mortals of Chaos anymore.

    Maybe I'm missing something.

    because Undivided is superior since they have Archaon Lord of the End times
    also Archaon is pretty dope. but not only that but Archaon and his Undivided Army has ALL the monogod units. Archaon himself has the blessing of all 4 Chaos Gods. Undivided is the Ultimate Chaos Force

    removing Undivided would be very very very stupid. also to add warriors of Chaos was not intended to be playable in tww1 but because of allot of complaints they made them playable. we all understood it would be lacking until game 3
  • KillertutKillertut Registered Users Posts: 889
    i mean the regular warriors of chaos units where always fine statwise and the marked units where their normal counterparts with some gimmicks, so that was what i expected from the game anyway.

    and if warriors of chaos have access to the marked warriors i will surely use all of them.
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 8,641
    How does stats for a unit from another race invalidate a possible update to WoC in any way?

    And if you think that MonoGods suddenly makes WoC redundant, please go check Age of Sigmar, Slave to Darkness are the spiritual sucessor of WoC and they do just as well as any of the MonoGods, with their own flavour and unique units that separate them from other Chaos Races.
    "By the fires of Hashut, let them burn in the flames of eternal torment!"
    - Anonymous
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,738
    Would be nice if they gave a simple yes they are reworking on them. I'd accept that and more patient than some here melting for news. I didn't consider a WoC an absolute 100% thing that will get done but could be.

    Those WoC units though I wouldn't count as proof one way or another. They're units weren't the problem, map mechanics were. Of which we saw none.
  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 1,237
    TBH i wouldn't expect much out of god-specific chaos warriors. Unless they made them seriously unique with different playstyle for each god (which doesn't seem very likely considering the stats they had in battle), but even then they'll likely be the same old heavy infantry that gets killed by everyone and everything.
  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 5,216
    I honestly have no clue what CA have in store for the Warriors of Chaos. Should be interesting.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • DaGangsterDaGangster Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,867
    Its simple well just have Warriors Undivided, Beastmen undivided, Deamons undivided(Belakor), then each monogod "race" with mixed god units of each. Sigvald can simply be a warriors of chaos with the ability to get some slaneseh themed units from the mono roster, while retaining access to dragon ogres and other undivided stuff. Then people who paid for him or warriors of chaos in general aren't feeling cheated.

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  • MiniaArMiniaAr Registered Users Posts: 1,686
    Why woud you remove WoC as a race, I don't understand.

    There is in my opinion a much more appealing alternative: give WoC access to the Monogods mortal units, albeit on a limited basis.

    For example, with a Mark of Chaos rewok, you would get access during a WoC campaigns to different marks of chaos, doing quests, battles, with tech, skills, buildings, etc....
    And once you get for example a Mark of Khorne, you can put it on one of your mortal unit and bam, you get a Chosen of Khorne in your army.

    Various WoC lords would get access to marks in different ways: Archaon should get more marks than the others and of all flavours. Sigvald would get marks of Slaanesh (almost?)-exclusively, Kholek would'nt get many marks but instead would not get infighting penalties between warriors of different gods in his army (I believe infighting in WoC shoud be reworked as well to only affect units marked by different Gods).
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 8,413
    edited May 2021

    I understand the problems with eliminating the faction considering people paid for it.

    Wait, why would CA possibly eliminate WoC? With all that new stuff they can put most of the missing stuff relatively easy.

    Why would someone want to play "generic" Warriors of Chaos when the same units are offered in the Khorne, Tzeentch, etc. factions with more flavor?

    Because we can use all of them and not be limited to only one flavor.

    Also, WoC does not represent just the mortals.

    All of their units and characters are mortals.
  • DerpyRoxasDerpyRoxas Registered Users Posts: 3,348
    The sad truth about Chaos Warriors. Thought as a separate faction from 8th Edition Daemons, as CA originally planned them, it will be outclassed by the return of the Legions of Chaos (aka Monogods of WH3). Beastmen and Chaos Warriors are in dire need of the most intensive rework not yet done by CA.
    Perhaps it's even better if Sigvald get Slaanesh'ed from the actual roster and the Chaos Warrior Pack gets renamed "Swords of Chaos" to symbolize the transition from generic Undivided Warriors to the Everchosen proper army.

    I can't really imagine how CA could pull this. The position of Sigvald is unprecedented, and the actual Chaos Warriors are suffering the new "Back to the Past" design that GW and CA pulled in WH3.

    If things are left as they are, Chaos Warriors will begin to feel extremely out of place with no reasons to play them instead of a monogod army. And Sigvald especially would be, on the opposite side of the spectrum, someone that can't access the toys his "Dark Father" can bring on the table.
  • Arcani_4_EverArcani_4_Ever Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,788
    All units in Khorne Roster should have Frenzy. At least that's how it was in the tabletop.

    Also a mechanic similar to the Dark Elves Dark Mastery should be added to Khorne. Where the more you kill the more buffed your warriors are.

    Several units in Khorne roster should also be prone to go Berserk and go on a Rampage.

    This was mostly a Kislev showcase, so i have hope the Khorne Roster will get proper mechanics.
  • Vin362Vin362 Registered Users Posts: 1,488
    edited May 2021
    For game 1 and 2 races/factions we don't know what changes they will have until after game 3 is released and the big campaign map is released.

    As to the stats of the Chaos Warriors compared to the Chaos Warriors of Khorne it makes sense that units who share a similar role would have nearly incidental stats, the bonuses from technology and lords make the difference and we also don't much Khorne's playstyle either.
    Supporter of Shu-Han, I wish Total War Three Kingdoms had a Three Kingdoms start date, rider of Kislev, admiral of The Awakened and Elector Count of Shu-Han
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Registered Users Posts: 2,815
    Creative Accounting and rock-bottom standards of expectation among the playerbase means that whatever happens, we're stuck with it.
  • brago90brago90 Registered Users Posts: 1,291
    Most of the things that WoC doesn't have yet are going to be included via monogods.

    WoC will have access to several mortal units of monogods when not overlapping whit WoC's own units.

    And forget about removing Sigvald, Sigvald will remain an option to lead WoC armies but he will also be an option to lead monogod armies. And in campaign he will have access to the undivided units and to the divided units of Slannesh with some mechanics that will limit his access to daemons.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,542
    They’re not reskins, there’s obviously a certain amount of remodelling involved.

    In terms of getting info on a 5 year old DLC - not for a while. Probably approaching the release of the updated ME map a few months after release.
  • QuinsecQuinsec Member Registered Users Posts: 151
    I would much rather they just integrate WoC and DoC content into the monogods rosters and also create, as someone else suggested, a Chaos Undivided faction with access to bits and pieces of other rosters. Move Sigvald to Slaanesh.
  • 6nieve66nieve6 Registered Users Posts: 550
    I think that Bel'lakor would be the 4th and final LL of WoC
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 8,021
    edited May 2021

    Goatforce said:

    Sorry but what? How does seeing the stats of a Khorne warrior invalidate Undivided? That makes no sense.

    WoC represents the mortals of Chaos as a whole, and has a place in the series and needs an update - what will likely happen is that WoC will get access to the mortal units of all Monos, as well as a campaign rework to make them hopefully fun to play.

    Undivided Chaos is a thing, deleting it from the game would be utterly ridiculous, beyond the issue of removing a paid for addition.

    Well, mortals of Chaos are clearly part of each of the monogod factions. Why would someone want to play "generic" Warriors of Chaos when the same units are offered in the Khorne, Tzeentch, etc. factions with more flavor? Also, WoC does not represent just the mortals. Changer of Ways (which is a daemon, I believe) is a lord for that faction. And since the Daemon factions have mortal Chaos warriors as part of their ranks, I just don't see how WoC represents the mortals of Chaos anymore.

    Maybe I'm missing something.

    Yes, you are missing something. WoC should have all mortals, including every marked mortal. I assume if you own game 3 and have WoC you will have access to all marked warriors, so you can build mixes of marked warriors.

    Lords of change, which I think is what you meant, is a daemon, so would not be in WoC (though will likely be in a unified Daemons roster too under Be'Lakor). But Warriors will have Slaughterbrutes, Vortex Beasts, Skullcrushers etc, not having Greater Daemons is not an issue for their roster. Edit, though they should be able to get Daemon Princes, though imo only through having a Chaos Lord ascend, not through recruitment

    Sorry but saying "no Daemons so no point" is a ridiculous one, WoC is one of the most beloved races in the TT, and deserves to get the love needed to see it done right. I don't expect much in the way of new LLs at this point, but they should certainly not be left to rot, and Monos present a huge opportunity to see their roster completed and offer a flavourful way to play (Archaon uniting the disparate hordes of chaos for example)
  • dreagondreagon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,282
    I still expect them to be turned into the Undivided faction. Keep the current units, add some daemons and maybe some other bits, and add Belakor as well.
    "The dog is a peasant and the cat is a gentleman." H.P. Lovecraft
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