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Skaven - No flying units?

24

Comments

  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,404
    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
  • hillbillymachinegunhillbillymachinegun Registered Users Posts: 465
    Seriously, they created a manned rocket/satellite and have access to nuclear bombs/missiles. How do they not have some kind of warpstone fueled fighter jet or imitation gyrocopter by now? I'd pay big money to have a Skaven fighter jet in game.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572
    Giving them the warpfire dragon doesn't make sense anyway. Warpfire dragons aren't Skaven monsters and the only relationship they share is that Warpfire dragons tend to usually target and kill skaven over any other creature. Skaven also don't like them. It would make absolutely no sense for any Skaven to have them on their roster.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,404
    User_Clue said:

    Giving them the warpfire dragon doesn't make sense anyway. Warpfire dragons aren't Skaven monsters and the only relationship they share is that Warpfire dragons tend to usually target and kill skaven over any other creature. Skaven also don't like them. It would make absolutely no sense for any Skaven to have them on their roster.

    That’s not taking into consideration CA’s approach to design. According to the lore an entire army can’t pay the warp a little ass-kicking visit, but it’s a one off experience. It’s a simple narrative that would suit Throt’s character, overcome the ultimate monster in the eyes of the Skaven.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,337

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,337

    User_Clue said:

    Giving them the warpfire dragon doesn't make sense anyway. Warpfire dragons aren't Skaven monsters and the only relationship they share is that Warpfire dragons tend to usually target and kill skaven over any other creature. Skaven also don't like them. It would make absolutely no sense for any Skaven to have them on their roster.

    That’s not taking into consideration CA’s approach to design. According to the lore an entire army can’t pay the warp a little ass-kicking visit, but it’s a one off experience. It’s a simple narrative that would suit Throt’s character, overcome the ultimate monster in the eyes of the Skaven.
    don't see why throt would need it though he is already a very strong lord.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,337

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,404
    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,404
    saweendra said:

    User_Clue said:

    Giving them the warpfire dragon doesn't make sense anyway. Warpfire dragons aren't Skaven monsters and the only relationship they share is that Warpfire dragons tend to usually target and kill skaven over any other creature. Skaven also don't like them. It would make absolutely no sense for any Skaven to have them on their roster.

    That’s not taking into consideration CA’s approach to design. According to the lore an entire army can’t pay the warp a little ass-kicking visit, but it’s a one off experience. It’s a simple narrative that would suit Throt’s character, overcome the ultimate monster in the eyes of the Skaven.
    don't see why throt would need it though he is already a very strong lord.
    No faction really ‘needs’ anything, it’s all about adding fun mechanics and creatures/units that offer new ways of playing. I want Throt to play different to other clans.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    What exactly do you consider useful standard infantry?
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,337
    edited June 2021

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    Look at lot of newer battles mate its starting to change from skaven slaves to strom vermin mostly helberds or clan rats ,

    its meta change which is some times painfully slow. but its happening now.

    remember it took at least lot of time until BM palyers to actually make spawn rush work, after spawn buff and than even more time for it to spread to woc

    skaven don't need dragons and that goes for empire and dwarfs

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,404
    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.
  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,404
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    Look at lot of newer battles mate its starting to change from skaven slaves to strom vermin mostly helberds or clan rats ,

    its meta change which is some times painfully slow. but its happening now.

    remember it took at least lot of time until BM palyers to actually make spawn rush work, after spawn buff and than even more time for it to spread to woc
    I look at the best players and I watch the best players like LoTW never using normal infantry, not even Clan Rats.

    Maybe if Queek gets a Red Guard mechanic and they get a Fangleader Hero to specifically buff Stormvermin, it may change things.
  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,404
    User_Clue said:

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    What exactly do you consider useful standard infantry?

    Infantry that’s useful in MP or very hard+ campaign.
  • eomat#7953eomat#7953 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,899
    Skaven already have so much. They don't need flying stuff.
  • Uagrim#4644Uagrim#4644 Registered Users Posts: 2,080

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    Look at lot of newer battles mate its starting to change from skaven slaves to strom vermin mostly helberds or clan rats ,

    its meta change which is some times painfully slow. but its happening now.

    remember it took at least lot of time until BM palyers to actually make spawn rush work, after spawn buff and than even more time for it to spread to woc
    I look at the best players and I watch the best players like LoTW never using normal infantry, not even Clan Rats.

    Maybe if Queek gets a Red Guard mechanic and the get a Fangleader Hero to specifically buff Stormvermin it may change things.
    You mean the guy whose main goal is efficiency doesn't run anything but the most efficient unit, what a surprise. You don't use LoTW to find what units are bad his videos show which units are super good.

    On normal stormvermines work just fine. Yhea they have the same issue all great weapon units have but again that is not a skaven specific issues and something that CA hopefully addresses with game 3.
  • mdgh1991mdgh1991 Registered Users Posts: 518
    edited June 2021
    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who wants to fuel other haters and hurts the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,337

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry


    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 7,651
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    Quoting the Bretts have bad infantry is kinda pointless, it's another faction that wasn't built around having a strong one. A weakness you've specifically tried to void in other threads. Bret's point is not a strong line, it's cavalry. You're comparing lackluster infantry to lackluster infantry. Doesn't matter.
  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,404
    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
  • Ben1990#8909Ben1990#8909 Registered Users Posts: 2,877

    Hey there! I noticed that Skaven is probably the only faction that has no flying units such as those bats that interrupt enemies' archers or some flying monsters in vein of dragons. I think it would be a goddamn good idea to see something like BIG FLYING BATTLE RAT on the battlefield or some pigeon rats whose sole purpose is to poison and disrupt those tricksy little archerssess. Yes-yes!




    Yeah no. If they did have at least one then everyone else would be screwed. I can already see a Warpfire Dragon in their army with bio-mechanical tibits nailed to it that works like how the Stormfiends are controlled and that would've been pretty horrifying if CA added it. HOPING THEY DON'T SEE THIS.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,337

    User_Clue said:

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    What exactly do you consider useful standard infantry?

    Infantry that’s useful in MP or very hard+ campaign.


    Nyxilis said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    Quoting the Bretts have bad infantry is kinda pointless, it's another faction that wasn't built around having a strong one. A weakness you've specifically tried to void in other threads. Bret's point is not a strong line, it's cavalry. You're comparing lackluster infantry to lackluster infantry. Doesn't matter.
    and better than empire and dwarfs as death runners kind of beat nearly every thing there in melee

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,337

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,404
    saweendra said:

    User_Clue said:

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    What exactly do you consider useful standard infantry?

    Infantry that’s useful in MP or very hard+ campaign.


    Nyxilis said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    Quoting the Bretts have bad infantry is kinda pointless, it's another faction that wasn't built around having a strong one. A weakness you've specifically tried to void in other threads. Bret's point is not a strong line, it's cavalry. You're comparing lackluster infantry to lackluster infantry. Doesn't matter.
    and better than empire and dwarfs as death runners kind of beat nearly every thing there in melee
    He actually proves my point, very few ppl use them and he’s decimating enemy units with artillery and attacking in groups.

    He has a theory and it’s pretty much wrong. Checkout the better players who work on tournaments.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,337

    saweendra said:

    User_Clue said:

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    What exactly do you consider useful standard infantry?

    Infantry that’s useful in MP or very hard+ campaign.


    Nyxilis said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    Quoting the Bretts have bad infantry is kinda pointless, it's another faction that wasn't built around having a strong one. A weakness you've specifically tried to void in other threads. Bret's point is not a strong line, it's cavalry. You're comparing lackluster infantry to lackluster infantry. Doesn't matter.
    and better than empire and dwarfs as death runners kind of beat nearly every thing there in melee
    He actually proves my point, very few ppl use them and he’s decimating enemy units with artillery and attacking in groups.

    He has a theory and it’s pretty much wrong. Checkout the better players who work on tournaments.
    i do check some tourny plays of human boy he uses strom vermin helberds in the GS match up to good effect,

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,404
    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
  • davedave1124#4773davedave1124#4773 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 21,404
    edited June 2021
    I think we could improve the Warlord build with a few minor changes.

    Ska is added as a specialised Hero

    With similar Fangleader heroes that buff Stormvermin

    Queek receives 3 types of elite Red Guard units

    The many specialised infantry RoR are brought into play

    Queek get a secret court which allows him to converse with collected heads. When he finds the correct combos and timings the rewards and info is very efficient

    Clan Mors receives a mechanic ‘Mors Training’ that gives specialised infantry bonuses through completing missions by Gnawdwell, the better done the better the reward including highly specialised rewards for meeting very difficult and secret goals. This includes specialised banners; flags; RoRs and abilities.
  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 7,651
    saweendra said:

    User_Clue said:

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    What exactly do you consider useful standard infantry?

    Infantry that’s useful in MP or very hard+ campaign.


    Nyxilis said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    Quoting the Bretts have bad infantry is kinda pointless, it's another faction that wasn't built around having a strong one. A weakness you've specifically tried to void in other threads. Bret's point is not a strong line, it's cavalry. You're comparing lackluster infantry to lackluster infantry. Doesn't matter.
    and better than empire and dwarfs as death runners kind of beat nearly every thing there in melee
    Crushing dwarf lines is something I absolutely do not do with my skaven infantry, I leave that to my magic, range, and other things.

    And you seemed to miss prior to all the DLC for Skaven their infantry was not holding, did not win them the day. What started to win them anything was as their many other tools got better and various holes they had deliberately left out for DLC were plugged. When I watch the actual champs from MP it's about their lord choice, their specialty units, and a host of things they are far more concerned about.
  • damon40000#7640damon40000#7640 Registered Users Posts: 1,875
    if you hit skaven hard enough it will fly for a bit
    BsFG dwarf
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,337
    edited June 2021
    Nyxilis said:

    saweendra said:

    User_Clue said:

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    What exactly do you consider useful standard infantry?

    Infantry that’s useful in MP or very hard+ campaign.


    Nyxilis said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    Quoting the Bretts have bad infantry is kinda pointless, it's another faction that wasn't built around having a strong one. A weakness you've specifically tried to void in other threads. Bret's point is not a strong line, it's cavalry. You're comparing lackluster infantry to lackluster infantry. Doesn't matter.
    and better than empire and dwarfs as death runners kind of beat nearly every thing there in melee
    Crushing dwarf lines is something I absolutely do not do with my skaven infantry, I leave that to my magic, range, and other things.

    And you seemed to miss prior to all the DLC for Skaven their infantry was not holding, did not win them the day. What started to win them anything was as their many other tools got better and various holes they had deliberately left out for DLC were plugged. When I watch the actual champs from MP it's about their lord choice, their specialty units, and a host of things they are far more concerned about.
    yeah previously you mean before both mass changes, charge fix , and before skaven reworks to death runners.

    before that seriously hell only now we start to see elite infantry a lot , for any race they were not viable before

    skaven do have a weakness its their mid tier infantry that is kind of meh point clan rats don't hold up agianst many units and have no idea how effective plage monk not censor bearar work

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


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