Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Skaven - No flying units?

13

Comments

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,605
    edited June 1
    Skaven infantry mostly exists as roadblocks. It suffers from low LD and basically lesser version of HE martial prowess in Strength in Numbers, so Skaven infantry builds don't really work and in MUs vs any any actually good infantry races you need to use weapon teams to even things out. That's not to say it's useless or that some heavier focus on infantry can't work as a surprise factor when opponent is not expecting it. Generally though, Skaven are not a strong infantry race, that would be BM, Norsca, GS, etc. Even WE have stronger infantry rushes. That's completely fine though, that's the design intent.

    However in campaign it's perfectly fine to have factions which focus on typically weak/underutilized aspects of the roster, that's why i think having one of the Skaven factions with substantial bonuses to infantry would be totally fine in campaign.

    Likewise, it would be fine to have campaign only flyers, probably again exclusive to some faction.

    It's not like HE don't get ridiculously strong Gryphon Knights, or GS don't make goblins as powerful as Chosen with some of their factions. There's no balance in campaign, and it would actually take some really OP stats to make infantry or gyrocopters be more effective than weapon teams in campaign, most likely these would still be suboptimal options you use for flavour/role playing.

    MP Skaven are perfectly average after the last round of nerfs and don't really need any infantry buffs or flyers.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,804

    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
    yes but the fact remains skaven have just as many tools as empire , you can make them work

    i remember one match up where Gudmp mule used the non damaging vortex spell of eshin soceror to literally a open a hole in empire players back line and delete the entire back line .

    it was i think dhav channels

    but the fact remains skaven infantry is not bad by any stretch thier are builds that use skaven units mainly strom vermin helberds and censor monks going around these days
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,804

    Skaven infantry mostly exists as roadblocks. It suffers from low LD and basically lesser version of HE martial prowess in Strength in Numbers, so Skaven infantry builds don't really work and in MUs vs any any actually good infantry races you need to use weapon teams to even things out. That's not to say it's useless or that some heavier focus on infantry can't work as a surprise factor when opponent is not expecting it. Generally though, Skaven are not a strong infantry race, that would be BM, Norsca, GS, etc. Even WE have stronger infantry rushes. That's completely fine though, that's the design intent.

    However in campaign it's perfectly fine to have factions which focus on typically weak/underutilized aspects of the roster, that's why i think having one of the Skaven factions with substantial bonuses to infantry would be totally fine in campaign.

    Likewise, it would be fine to have campaign only flyers, probably again exclusive to some faction.

    It's not like HE don't get ridiculously strong Gryphon Knights, or GS don't make goblins as powerful as Chosen with some of their factions. There's no balance in campaign, and it would actually take some really OP stats to make infantry or gyrocopters be more effective than weapon teams in campaign, most likely these would still be suboptimal options you use for flavour/role playing.

    MP Skaven are perfectly average after the last round of nerfs and don't really need any infantry buffs or flyers.

    disagree on the BM match up only thing Bm have in terms of infantry that can beat strom vermin head on is bestigors and they honestly get deleted buy any number of skaven tools
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,194

    Skaven infantry mostly exists as roadblocks. It suffers from low LD and basically lesser version of HE martial prowess in Strength in Numbers, so Skaven infantry builds don't really work and in MUs vs any any actually good infantry races you need to use weapon teams to even things out. That's not to say it's useless or that some heavier focus on infantry can't work as a surprise factor when opponent is not expecting it. Generally though, Skaven are not a strong infantry race, that would be BM, Norsca, GS, etc. Even WE have stronger infantry rushes. That's completely fine though, that's the design intent.

    However in campaign it's perfectly fine to have factions which focus on typically weak/underutilized aspects of the roster, that's why i think having one of the Skaven factions with substantial bonuses to infantry would be totally fine in campaign.

    Likewise, it would be fine to have campaign only flyers, probably again exclusive to some faction.

    It's not like HE don't get ridiculously strong Gryphon Knights, or GS don't make goblins as powerful as Chosen with some of their factions. There's no balance in campaign, and it would actually take some really OP stats to make infantry or gyrocopters be more effective than weapon teams in campaign, most likely these would still be suboptimal options you use for flavour/role playing.

    MP Skaven are perfectly average after the last round of nerfs and don't really need any infantry buffs or flyers.

    This is my point, it’s not either or, it can be a single specialised unit for a single LL, without adding an army of Dragons to every army.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,632

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    You cannot even begin to consider balance at higher difficulties due to the game's rules disintegrating. ALL melee infantry suck at high enough difficulty.

    Knock battle difficulty down to Normal and yes, Skaven have incredible forces across all fronts.

    I know y'all like your ePeens and what not, but objectively you can only discuss battle in TWWH games at "normal" battle difficulty. Just like MP is balanced at "Normal".
  • ASyrianASyrian Registered Users Posts: 943
    They simply dont need it
    Kk thx bye
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,605
    saweendra said:

    Skaven infantry mostly exists as roadblocks. It suffers from low LD and basically lesser version of HE martial prowess in Strength in Numbers, so Skaven infantry builds don't really work and in MUs vs any any actually good infantry races you need to use weapon teams to even things out. That's not to say it's useless or that some heavier focus on infantry can't work as a surprise factor when opponent is not expecting it. Generally though, Skaven are not a strong infantry race, that would be BM, Norsca, GS, etc. Even WE have stronger infantry rushes. That's completely fine though, that's the design intent.

    However in campaign it's perfectly fine to have factions which focus on typically weak/underutilized aspects of the roster, that's why i think having one of the Skaven factions with substantial bonuses to infantry would be totally fine in campaign.

    Likewise, it would be fine to have campaign only flyers, probably again exclusive to some faction.

    It's not like HE don't get ridiculously strong Gryphon Knights, or GS don't make goblins as powerful as Chosen with some of their factions. There's no balance in campaign, and it would actually take some really OP stats to make infantry or gyrocopters be more effective than weapon teams in campaign, most likely these would still be suboptimal options you use for flavour/role playing.

    MP Skaven are perfectly average after the last round of nerfs and don't really need any infantry buffs or flyers.

    disagree on the BM match up only thing Bm have in terms of infantry that can beat strom vermin head on is bestigors and they honestly get deleted buy any number of skaven tools
    Stormvermin can just be crushed by chariots or pigs and if you take a lot of them you'll just be overwhelmed with a wider BM build. BM was and still is one of the tougher MUs for Skaven, to a large extent because they cut through the Skaven frontline/chaff super fast.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,194
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
    yes but the fact remains skaven have just as many tools as empire , you can make them work

    i remember one match up where Gudmp mule used the non damaging vortex spell of eshin soceror to literally a open a hole in empire players back line and delete the entire back line .

    it was i think dhav channels

    but the fact remains skaven infantry is not bad by any stretch thier are builds that use skaven units mainly strom vermin helberds and censor monks going around these days
    Plague Monks have little armour and get destroyed by range unlike armoured Empire armour.

    No one who understands Skaven would use a death runner as anything like front line.

    This is a totally different issue.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,804

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
    yes but the fact remains skaven have just as many tools as empire , you can make them work

    i remember one match up where Gudmp mule used the non damaging vortex spell of eshin soceror to literally a open a hole in empire players back line and delete the entire back line .

    it was i think dhav channels

    but the fact remains skaven infantry is not bad by any stretch thier are builds that use skaven units mainly strom vermin helberds and censor monks going around these days
    Plague Monks have little armour and get destroyed by range unlike armoured Empire armour.

    No one who understands Skaven would use a death runner as anything like front line.

    This is a totally different issue.
    yeah neither unit is front line stuff they are specliazed units but still they are signifcantly better than great swords , and lets be real when was the last time you saw a great sword front line

    the Skaven issue is their mid tier which is weaker as bret player or empire player i can easily bust open a clan/ slave front line with swordsmen or men at arms swords as long they don't get shot, or even wild flagelent or pilgram build. that does not however change the fact the skaven elite infantry can beat all of these units.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,804

    saweendra said:

    Skaven infantry mostly exists as roadblocks. It suffers from low LD and basically lesser version of HE martial prowess in Strength in Numbers, so Skaven infantry builds don't really work and in MUs vs any any actually good infantry races you need to use weapon teams to even things out. That's not to say it's useless or that some heavier focus on infantry can't work as a surprise factor when opponent is not expecting it. Generally though, Skaven are not a strong infantry race, that would be BM, Norsca, GS, etc. Even WE have stronger infantry rushes. That's completely fine though, that's the design intent.

    However in campaign it's perfectly fine to have factions which focus on typically weak/underutilized aspects of the roster, that's why i think having one of the Skaven factions with substantial bonuses to infantry would be totally fine in campaign.

    Likewise, it would be fine to have campaign only flyers, probably again exclusive to some faction.

    It's not like HE don't get ridiculously strong Gryphon Knights, or GS don't make goblins as powerful as Chosen with some of their factions. There's no balance in campaign, and it would actually take some really OP stats to make infantry or gyrocopters be more effective than weapon teams in campaign, most likely these would still be suboptimal options you use for flavour/role playing.

    MP Skaven are perfectly average after the last round of nerfs and don't really need any infantry buffs or flyers.

    disagree on the BM match up only thing Bm have in terms of infantry that can beat strom vermin head on is bestigors and they honestly get deleted buy any number of skaven tools
    Stormvermin can just be crushed by chariots or pigs and if you take a lot of them you'll just be overwhelmed with a wider BM build. BM was and still is one of the tougher MUs for Skaven, to a large extent because they cut through the Skaven frontline/chaff super fast.
    yeah and than we get the build roulte because you need chariots and pigs which can be countered by a wider skaven gun line ,


    even before the mass changes it was a vailid tactic to bring storm vermin against bm because most of the time they don't bring any tools to deal with them and focus heavily on untis to take down helpits and range. so you can catch people off guard
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,605
    edited June 1
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
    yes but the fact remains skaven have just as many tools as empire , you can make them work

    i remember one match up where Gudmp mule used the non damaging vortex spell of eshin soceror to literally a open a hole in empire players back line and delete the entire back line .

    it was i think dhav channels

    but the fact remains skaven infantry is not bad by any stretch thier are builds that use skaven units mainly strom vermin helberds and censor monks going around these days
    Plague Monks have little armour and get destroyed by range unlike armoured Empire armour.

    No one who understands Skaven would use a death runner as anything like front line.

    This is a totally different issue.
    yeah neither unit is front line stuff they are specliazed units but still they are signifcantly better than great swords , and lets be real when was the last time you saw a great sword front line

    the Skaven issue is their mid tier which is weaker as bret player or empire player i can easily bust open a clan/ slave front line with swordsmen or men at arms swords as long they don't get shot, or even wild flagelent or pilgram build. that does not however change the fact the skaven elite infantry can beat all of these units.

    I mean, HE infantry can beat most elite infantry from other races, it still sucks in MP for the most part. Being a good infantry roster is not about having more expensive elite infantry units that beat other elite infantry units. It's about cost efficiency and versatility. And death runners are mostly unusable outside of the dwarf MU.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,194
    Itharus said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    You cannot even begin to consider balance at higher difficulties due to the game's rules disintegrating. ALL melee infantry suck at high enough difficulty.

    Knock battle difficulty down to Normal and yes, Skaven have incredible forces across all fronts.

    I know y'all like your ePeens and what not, but objectively you can only discuss battle in TWWH games at "normal" battle difficulty. Just like MP is balanced at "Normal".
    Not really, their infantry will always be outclassed, why? That’s their weakness.

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
    yes but the fact remains skaven have just as many tools as empire , you can make them work

    i remember one match up where Gudmp mule used the non damaging vortex spell of eshin soceror to literally a open a hole in empire players back line and delete the entire back line .

    it was i think dhav channels

    but the fact remains skaven infantry is not bad by any stretch thier are builds that use skaven units mainly strom vermin helberds and censor monks going around these days
    Plague Monks have little armour and get destroyed by range unlike armoured Empire armour.

    No one who understands Skaven would use a death runner as anything like front line.

    This is a totally different issue.
    yeah neither unit is front line stuff they are specliazed units but still they are signifcantly better than great swords , and lets be real when was the last time you saw a great sword front line

    the Skaven issue is their mid tier which is weaker as bret player or empire player i can easily bust open a clan/ slave front line with swordsmen or men at arms swords as long they don't get shot, or even wild flagelent or pilgram build. that does not however change the fact the skaven elite infantry can beat all of these units.

    Are you taking price and flexibility into your calculation?
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,804
    edited June 1

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
    yes but the fact remains skaven have just as many tools as empire , you can make them work

    i remember one match up where Gudmp mule used the non damaging vortex spell of eshin soceror to literally a open a hole in empire players back line and delete the entire back line .

    it was i think dhav channels

    but the fact remains skaven infantry is not bad by any stretch thier are builds that use skaven units mainly strom vermin helberds and censor monks going around these days
    Plague Monks have little armour and get destroyed by range unlike armoured Empire armour.

    No one who understands Skaven would use a death runner as anything like front line.

    This is a totally different issue.
    yeah neither unit is front line stuff they are specliazed units but still they are signifcantly better than great swords , and lets be real when was the last time you saw a great sword front line

    the Skaven issue is their mid tier which is weaker as bret player or empire player i can easily bust open a clan/ slave front line with swordsmen or men at arms swords as long they don't get shot, or even wild flagelent or pilgram build. that does not however change the fact the skaven elite infantry can beat all of these units.

    I mean, HE infantry can beat most elite infantry from other races, it still sucks in MP for the most part. Being a good infantry roster is not about having more expensive elite infantry units that beat other elite infantry units. It's about cost efficiency and versatility. And death runners are mostly unusable outside of the dwarf MU.
    yeah i agree usually in most match ups mid tier infantry are better which actually skaven have very little in MP.

    but that said i am seeing lot more elite infantry now in lot more MU's than in past

    even bestigors and deapth guard of all things (deapth guard suck ) but i do see them a lot more now
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • drogarito92drogarito92 Registered Users Posts: 323
    Woah. A lot of comments. I am totally against WARPWHATEVER DRAGONS in Skaven army., That's pure blasphemy! Give us some big, fat flying rat instead! KILL-KILL! If not flying creature, then why not some warpstone tunnelers, a unit that would literally move underground and then jump at enemy out of the earth. It totally makes sense since Skaven are underground faction (**** metal \m/). That unit should be easilly killed by heavy artillery such as cannons and would be used to destroy ranged units with its sneaky ways. Summon Clanrats can disrupt units ranged units instantly which is kinda OP in singleplayer, but this would be a bit harder to do since you would have to move them across the battlefield. To sum it up, NO DRAGONS IN SKAVEN ROSTER! Just RATS or mutated things. With wings.

    I think that stormvermin hallebadiers are way better than stormvermin with swords.Btw it seems that nobody is using plague monks in multiplayer since they are an easy target for the ranged.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,804

    Itharus said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    You cannot even begin to consider balance at higher difficulties due to the game's rules disintegrating. ALL melee infantry suck at high enough difficulty.

    Knock battle difficulty down to Normal and yes, Skaven have incredible forces across all fronts.

    I know y'all like your ePeens and what not, but objectively you can only discuss battle in TWWH games at "normal" battle difficulty. Just like MP is balanced at "Normal".
    Not really, their infantry will always be outclassed, why? That’s their weakness.

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
    yes but the fact remains skaven have just as many tools as empire , you can make them work

    i remember one match up where Gudmp mule used the non damaging vortex spell of eshin soceror to literally a open a hole in empire players back line and delete the entire back line .

    it was i think dhav channels

    but the fact remains skaven infantry is not bad by any stretch thier are builds that use skaven units mainly strom vermin helberds and censor monks going around these days
    Plague Monks have little armour and get destroyed by range unlike armoured Empire armour.

    No one who understands Skaven would use a death runner as anything like front line.

    This is a totally different issue.
    yeah neither unit is front line stuff they are specliazed units but still they are signifcantly better than great swords , and lets be real when was the last time you saw a great sword front line

    the Skaven issue is their mid tier which is weaker as bret player or empire player i can easily bust open a clan/ slave front line with swordsmen or men at arms swords as long they don't get shot, or even wild flagelent or pilgram build. that does not however change the fact the skaven elite infantry can beat all of these units.

    Are you taking price and flexibility into your calculation?
    yes for the price skaven mid tier is meh at best their elites are fine but thier mid tier is not great which is why after the slave nerf skaven has become pretty rare ,

    meta have not shifted enough to use elite skaven units , because with slaves being more expensive makes getting enough slaves plus the range power you need is harder

    because of that a slave front line gets busted open

    clan rats hold longer but they are more expensive , lot of skaven players have not shifted thier meta to incluede more than counsl guard and they should beacuse they can hold longer allowing better firing time
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,194

    Woah. A lot of comments. I am totally against WARPWHATEVER DRAGONS in Skaven army., That's pure blasphemy! Give us some big, fat flying rat instead! KILL-KILL! If not flying creature, then why not some warpstone tunnelers, a unit that would literally move underground and then jump at enemy out of the earth. It totally makes sense since Skaven are underground faction (**** metal \m/). That unit should be easilly killed by heavy artillery such as cannons and would be used to destroy ranged units with its sneaky ways. Summon Clanrats can disrupt units ranged units instantly which is kinda OP in singleplayer, but this would be a bit harder to do since you would have to move them across the battlefield. To sum it up, NO DRAGONS IN SKAVEN ROSTER! Just RATS or mutated things. With wings.

    I think that stormvermin hallebadiers are way better than stormvermin with swords.Btw it seems that nobody is using plague monks in multiplayer since they are an easy target for the ranged.

    You’ve been deemed - anti Throt. To believe he is unable to ‘train his dragon’ (that gives me an idea for the name of the DLC) is pro no-fur

    I’d hoped the addition of War Grinders would allows Stormvermin and Plague Monks to be added to menace from below.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,605
    edited June 1
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
    yes but the fact remains skaven have just as many tools as empire , you can make them work

    i remember one match up where Gudmp mule used the non damaging vortex spell of eshin soceror to literally a open a hole in empire players back line and delete the entire back line .

    it was i think dhav channels

    but the fact remains skaven infantry is not bad by any stretch thier are builds that use skaven units mainly strom vermin helberds and censor monks going around these days
    Plague Monks have little armour and get destroyed by range unlike armoured Empire armour.

    No one who understands Skaven would use a death runner as anything like front line.

    This is a totally different issue.
    yeah neither unit is front line stuff they are specliazed units but still they are signifcantly better than great swords , and lets be real when was the last time you saw a great sword front line

    the Skaven issue is their mid tier which is weaker as bret player or empire player i can easily bust open a clan/ slave front line with swordsmen or men at arms swords as long they don't get shot, or even wild flagelent or pilgram build. that does not however change the fact the skaven elite infantry can beat all of these units.

    I mean, HE infantry can beat most elite infantry from other races, it still sucks in MP for the most part. Being a good infantry roster is not about having more expensive elite infantry units that beat other elite infantry units. It's about cost efficiency and versatility. And death runners are mostly unusable outside of the dwarf MU.
    yeah i agree usually in most match ups mid tier infantry are better which actually skaven have very little in MP.

    but that said i am seeing lot more elite infantry now in lot more MU's than in past

    even bestigors and deapth guard of all things (deapth guard suck ) but i do see them a lot more now
    Bestigors are actually good (for a lot of the same reasons black orcs are good). Depth guard aren't good but they're good vs stuff that's good vs coast chaff so if there's no dedicated tool vs them or this tool is disposed of they can work.

    Skaven infantry "elites" do exist, however they're usually far more specialized and on the lower end of cost efficiency in their price bracket. E.g. censer bearers have low armour and are vulnerable to a lot of things but still won't trade well vs most units at their price level. They can break cheaper units fast though with their high cb and ld debuffs. But overall it's not a great unit for cost, it can pay off if you put them into very specific engagements. Same for most other Skaven "elites", they're not actually great units, they're more like Depth Guard - not good in general but can throw people off in certain scenarios. That's completely fine, but I just don't agree that Skaven infantry is good. Skaven chaff is good (as chaff) - it's cheap and can hold long enough for cost.
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Registered Users Posts: 4,729

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Great argument for its addition. By that logic Tyrion should get weapon teams, Belegar should get the influence system, Gelt should save and protect wood elf forests. I mean, how much would it really change those factions?

    You have to realize that the game is enriched by having different factions play entirely in different ways. Otherwise why play other factions? And no, Skaven don't have a flying weakness. It's hard to have a weakness in an area that you can shoot down any units in 15 seconds. Keep the factions unique.
    SiWI: "no they just hate you and I don't blame them."
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,804
    edited June 1

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
    yes but the fact remains skaven have just as many tools as empire , you can make them work

    i remember one match up where Gudmp mule used the non damaging vortex spell of eshin soceror to literally a open a hole in empire players back line and delete the entire back line .

    it was i think dhav channels

    but the fact remains skaven infantry is not bad by any stretch thier are builds that use skaven units mainly strom vermin helberds and censor monks going around these days
    Plague Monks have little armour and get destroyed by range unlike armoured Empire armour.

    No one who understands Skaven would use a death runner as anything like front line.

    This is a totally different issue.
    yeah neither unit is front line stuff they are specliazed units but still they are signifcantly better than great swords , and lets be real when was the last time you saw a great sword front line

    the Skaven issue is their mid tier which is weaker as bret player or empire player i can easily bust open a clan/ slave front line with swordsmen or men at arms swords as long they don't get shot, or even wild flagelent or pilgram build. that does not however change the fact the skaven elite infantry can beat all of these units.

    I mean, HE infantry can beat most elite infantry from other races, it still sucks in MP for the most part. Being a good infantry roster is not about having more expensive elite infantry units that beat other elite infantry units. It's about cost efficiency and versatility. And death runners are mostly unusable outside of the dwarf MU.
    yeah i agree usually in most match ups mid tier infantry are better which actually skaven have very little in MP.

    but that said i am seeing lot more elite infantry now in lot more MU's than in past

    even bestigors and deapth guard of all things (deapth guard suck ) but i do see them a lot more now
    Bestigors are actually good (for a lot of the same reasons black orcs are good). Depth guard aren't good but they're good vs stuff that's good vs coast chaff so if there's no dedicated tool vs them or this tool is disposed of they can work.

    Skaven infantry "elites" do exist, however they're usually far more specialized and on the lower eng of cost efficiency in their price bracket. E.g. censer bearers have low armour and are vulnerable to a lot of things but still won't trade well vs most units at their price level. They can break cheaper units fast though with their high cb and ld debuffs. But overall it's not a great unit for cost, it can pay off if you put them into very specific engagements. Same for most other Skaven "elites", they're not actually great units, they're more like Depth Guard - not good but can throw people off in certain scenarios. That's completely fine, but I just don't agree that Skaven infantry is good. Skaven chaff is good (as chaff) - it's cheap and can hold long enough for cost.
    Bestigors are trash even with CB fix still freaking trash because their stats are tied to primal fury which is active above 50% lD but they 66LD see once that goes trash

    while plague monk censor bears are just as good except for armour but shooting skaven with archers can back fire badly since skaven now have more than enough tools shut a archer line
    and if you really want you can give them armour of darkness which is crimanally under rated as ever player wants to have summons

    and out sides of things like chosen and blade singers theirs very little that can beat plague monks on a clean charge they do work . they as all shock infantry was suffring from a another stupid bug that was fixed in the rakarth patch.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,194

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Great argument for its addition. By that logic Tyrion should get weapon teams, Belegar should get the influence system, Gelt should save and protect wood elf forests. I mean, how much would it really change those factions?

    You have to realize that the game is enriched by having different factions play entirely in different ways. Otherwise why play other factions? And no, Skaven don't have a flying weakness. It's hard to have a weakness in an area that you can shoot down any units in 15 seconds. Keep the factions unique.
    You must be looking at a different argument.

    Why would Tyrion poison Elves with Warpstone ammunition?

    Is it impossible for a master beast catcher to want to catch his greatest threat? Or what everyone sees as uncatchable? No.

    The factions will be unique, no one else in the current 6 LLs would be able to get a unique Dragon.

    Again, you’re fussing about nothing.
  • drogarito92drogarito92 Registered Users Posts: 323

    Woah. A lot of comments. I am totally against WARPWHATEVER DRAGONS in Skaven army., That's pure blasphemy! Give us some big, fat flying rat instead! KILL-KILL! If not flying creature, then why not some warpstone tunnelers, a unit that would literally move underground and then jump at enemy out of the earth. It totally makes sense since Skaven are underground faction (**** metal \m/). That unit should be easilly killed by heavy artillery such as cannons and would be used to destroy ranged units with its sneaky ways. Summon Clanrats can disrupt units ranged units instantly which is kinda OP in singleplayer, but this would be a bit harder to do since you would have to move them across the battlefield. To sum it up, NO DRAGONS IN SKAVEN ROSTER! Just RATS or mutated things. With wings.

    I think that stormvermin hallebadiers are way better than stormvermin with swords.Btw it seems that nobody is using plague monks in multiplayer since they are an easy target for the ranged.

    You’ve been deemed - anti Throt. To believe he is unable to ‘train his dragon’ (that gives me an idea for the name of the DLC) is pro no-fur

    I’d hoped the addition of War Grinders would allows Stormvermin and Plague Monks to be added to menace from below.
    To be honest I'm new to the game. I need to buy 2 more DLCs for Skaven.Twisted and the Twilight and Shadow and the Blade. Maybe that's why I'm craving for some flying units. Idk, gonna buy it in a few days. Maybe it will change my mind about flying units. But with unit roster that I have now, I feel that Skaven are pretty limited when compared with others :D
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,194

    Woah. A lot of comments. I am totally against WARPWHATEVER DRAGONS in Skaven army., That's pure blasphemy! Give us some big, fat flying rat instead! KILL-KILL! If not flying creature, then why not some warpstone tunnelers, a unit that would literally move underground and then jump at enemy out of the earth. It totally makes sense since Skaven are underground faction (**** metal \m/). That unit should be easilly killed by heavy artillery such as cannons and would be used to destroy ranged units with its sneaky ways. Summon Clanrats can disrupt units ranged units instantly which is kinda OP in singleplayer, but this would be a bit harder to do since you would have to move them across the battlefield. To sum it up, NO DRAGONS IN SKAVEN ROSTER! Just RATS or mutated things. With wings.

    I think that stormvermin hallebadiers are way better than stormvermin with swords.Btw it seems that nobody is using plague monks in multiplayer since they are an easy target for the ranged.

    You’ve been deemed - anti Throt. To believe he is unable to ‘train his dragon’ (that gives me an idea for the name of the DLC) is pro no-fur

    I’d hoped the addition of War Grinders would allows Stormvermin and Plague Monks to be added to menace from below.
    To be honest I'm new to the game. I need to buy 2 more DLCs for Skaven.Twisted and the Twilight and Shadow and the Blade. Maybe that's why I'm craving for some flying units. Idk, gonna buy it in a few days. Maybe it will change my mind about flying units. But with unit roster that I have now, I feel that Skaven are pretty limited when compared with others :D
    I always felt Skaven were pretty solid after the Prophet and the Warlock. The advantage of the other 2 allow unique and themed armies as well as attention grabbing mechanics.

    Tbf, Skaven can absolutely murder flying units as well and certainly don’t need flying units. I just like to add good RPG elements that give unique functions to the individual LLs.

    In a few years I imagine we will get huge Rat Ogres with Ratling Cannons (not guns), so can’t complain 😀
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,605
    edited June 1
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    mdgh1991 said:

    I'm confident OP is a big hater of Skaven who want to fuel other haters and hurt the feelings of the community to rise against Skaven. Such a vicious action...

    I do smell anti Skaven rhetoric in this thread.
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    They don’t have better infantry than Empire or BM, not a chance.

    Interesting mechanics or heroes can make certain units useful without spoonfeeding the player buffs or nerfs for counter units.
    check death runner vs great swords or plague monk vs great sword
    They’re specialists and will get destroyed if not used correctly. One on one doesn’t work in a real battle.
    yes but the fact remains skaven have just as many tools as empire , you can make them work

    i remember one match up where Gudmp mule used the non damaging vortex spell of eshin soceror to literally a open a hole in empire players back line and delete the entire back line .

    it was i think dhav channels

    but the fact remains skaven infantry is not bad by any stretch thier are builds that use skaven units mainly strom vermin helberds and censor monks going around these days
    Plague Monks have little armour and get destroyed by range unlike armoured Empire armour.

    No one who understands Skaven would use a death runner as anything like front line.

    This is a totally different issue.
    yeah neither unit is front line stuff they are specliazed units but still they are signifcantly better than great swords , and lets be real when was the last time you saw a great sword front line

    the Skaven issue is their mid tier which is weaker as bret player or empire player i can easily bust open a clan/ slave front line with swordsmen or men at arms swords as long they don't get shot, or even wild flagelent or pilgram build. that does not however change the fact the skaven elite infantry can beat all of these units.

    I mean, HE infantry can beat most elite infantry from other races, it still sucks in MP for the most part. Being a good infantry roster is not about having more expensive elite infantry units that beat other elite infantry units. It's about cost efficiency and versatility. And death runners are mostly unusable outside of the dwarf MU.
    yeah i agree usually in most match ups mid tier infantry are better which actually skaven have very little in MP.

    but that said i am seeing lot more elite infantry now in lot more MU's than in past

    even bestigors and deapth guard of all things (deapth guard suck ) but i do see them a lot more now
    Bestigors are actually good (for a lot of the same reasons black orcs are good). Depth guard aren't good but they're good vs stuff that's good vs coast chaff so if there's no dedicated tool vs them or this tool is disposed of they can work.

    Skaven infantry "elites" do exist, however they're usually far more specialized and on the lower eng of cost efficiency in their price bracket. E.g. censer bearers have low armour and are vulnerable to a lot of things but still won't trade well vs most units at their price level. They can break cheaper units fast though with their high cb and ld debuffs. But overall it's not a great unit for cost, it can pay off if you put them into very specific engagements. Same for most other Skaven "elites", they're not actually great units, they're more like Depth Guard - not good but can throw people off in certain scenarios. That's completely fine, but I just don't agree that Skaven infantry is good. Skaven chaff is good (as chaff) - it's cheap and can hold long enough for cost.
    Bestigors are trash even with CB fix still freaking trash because their stats are tied to primal fury which is active above 50% lD but they 66LD see once that goes trash

    while plague monk censor bears are just as good except for armour but shooting skaven with archers can back fire badly since skaven now have more than enough tools shut a archer line
    and if you really want you can give them armour of darkness which is crimanally under rated as ever player wants to have summons

    and out sides of things like chosen and blade singers theirs very little that can beat plague monks on a clean charge they do work . they as all shock infantry was suffring from a another stupid bug that was fixed in the rakarth patch.
    Bestigors are still reasonably cheap, have a big HP pool, amazing speed for heavy infantry and do a lot of damage on the charge/break through the lines fast.

    I think censer bearers lose even to saurus warriors 1v1 (or at least trade extremely poorly) though it was a long time since I tested it. I also remember that they lose to halberd units like temple guard. They will probably actually beat bestigors but overall bestigors are far more versatile and reliable.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 5,414
    saweendra said:

    Nyxilis said:

    saweendra said:

    User_Clue said:

    saweendra said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Skaven have supposedly a single weakness, flying units, that can be overcome just by bringing a ruin spellcaster. If you give them dragons (which hate them!) you no longer have to bring the spellcaster.
    Skaven would usually bring a ruin spell caster anyway. The Skaven weakness is leadership and trash infantry.
    no its not what you call trash infantry is bretonnia or empire not skaven, hell even dwarf infantry is bad , non of them are good at offense except for hammers and giant slayers

    strom vermin stats bad yes but your forgetting model count which means they will not loose damage out put even if they loose half the models which is not some thing any other unit in this class have, and why now we see the strom vermin return to meta

    plague monk censors are criminally underrated now as shock infantry yes they need to get a clean charge off on any thing to get full value

    and shock infantry are immensely good now


    death runners and eshin triads have been good for a long time as pseduo cav infantry.

    But i guess your whole thing is Hard and very hard battle difficulty but you're forgetting that on those difficulties Ai get melee specific cheats, on top of general buff stacking that happens making melee centric builds far inferior to range armies
    You’re not going to persuade me that Skaven have anything like useful standard infantry. The Council Guard can be used in certain builds for a specific reason but that’s about it. If you look at the top MP players you will rarely see any of them using anything apart from Skaven Slaves.

    A melee centric build beyond the use of Moulder is worthless.

    This issue of allowing a one off single monster to a monster based plan is blown out of proportion from the usual ‘waaah Skaven get everything’ Heroes.
    What exactly do you consider useful standard infantry?

    Infantry that’s useful in MP or very hard+ campaign.


    Nyxilis said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    Reeks said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    Hogwash

    Assymetry is way more important than some Skaven fanatics power fantasy
    Asymmetry is the absence of symmetry, so yeah I agree, some factions will be a lot stronger than others.

    If you really think a hard to catch single Dragon will affect the balance of Skaven you need to discharge some drama out of yourself.
    Itharus said:

    We need to resist the idea that every race shouldn't have any weaknesses and should be able to do everything well. The best part about this series is the asymmetrical factions which sadly have been watered down exactly in this way by shoring up most every weakness a lot of races have and some races have no weaknesses at all.

    I don't want each race to play the same as the other. So no, I don't want flying units for Skaven or cavalry for dwarfs, or standard ranged units for VC.

    Loads of factions have weaknesses, Skaven still has infantry weaknesses.

    Giving Throt a single flying monster wouldn’t affect Skaven as a whole. That’s what make Skaven fun - themes.
    No they don't. Skaven have some elite arse infantry going on now. Far beyond what they have in their army books... I want to take a moment to point out that Stormvermin actually suck. They are basically just other faction's high-end standard troops, not even elite status. In TWWH though -- Skaven elites fight like elf elites.

    So dumb.

    Skaven have literally not one single weakness in this game at all. Not even slot-economy, because their troops were OP'd.
    They don’t, no infantry is required beyond Skaven Slaves on hard/very hard due to their poor leadership and they are nothing like elves elite infantry.

    You mean just like the Elf factions?

    Again, this is almost a scripted complaint based on little thought. A single Dragon in a Moulder army will do FO.
    Just because you can get away with nothing but skavenslaves doesn't mean the chunks of elite infantry they have don't exist. If you want to weapons team heavy and slave bulwark - go for it. But you can also very easily just take a solid infantry army and do work with it. Try looking at the roster beyond the weapon teams some time ;)
    This is the issue with playing on the harder difficulties, the Skaven infantry don’t offer anything due to their specific leadership weakness.

    There’s no such thing as a solid infantry Skaven army (unless CA upgrade the Warlord factions).

    As I’ve said, I use both an Eshin, Moulder and Skryre build, but forced to not enjoy a Pestalins or Warlord build due to a lack of options.
    thats is not skaven issue thats just CA difficulty design issue that makes elite infantry less viable than ranged, honestly which is better a doom stack of phonix guard or sisters of averlon
    Right.. so because I’m a fan of Skaven I’d discuss Skaven issues, if you like another faction give ideas. The fact is you will find mid and high tier infantry in other builds.

    skaven do have better infantry than empire and brets, hell their infantry can even do well against BM a melee what are you saying ,

    but its just range is better , now i am not saying there shouldn't more op buffs to warlord factions but the fact you have a faction that can make work just dilutes the point.

    Just like how Repanse can make peasents **** op or Grom and skarsnik to goblins

    but ideally rather than having more op buffs on top of op buffs is not the way to go.

    CA need to look at difficulty modifiers and make it stop disproportionately favoring Range over melee , this is a over all design issue not a skaven issue

    skaven do have really good to ok elite infantry

    Quoting the Bretts have bad infantry is kinda pointless, it's another faction that wasn't built around having a strong one. A weakness you've specifically tried to void in other threads. Bret's point is not a strong line, it's cavalry. You're comparing lackluster infantry to lackluster infantry. Doesn't matter.
    and better than empire and dwarfs as death runners kind of beat nearly every thing there in melee
    Crushing dwarf lines is something I absolutely do not do with my skaven infantry, I leave that to my magic, range, and other things.

    And you seemed to miss prior to all the DLC for Skaven their infantry was not holding, did not win them the day. What started to win them anything was as their many other tools got better and various holes they had deliberately left out for DLC were plugged. When I watch the actual champs from MP it's about their lord choice, their specialty units, and a host of things they are far more concerned about.
    yeah previously you mean before both mass changes, charge fix , and before skaven reworks to death runners.

    before that seriously hell only now we start to see elite infantry a lot , for any race they were not viable before

    skaven do have a weakness its their mid tier infantry that is kind of meh point clan rats don't hold up agianst many units and have no idea how effective plage monk not censor bearar work
    No, not at all. More guns, more monsters, strong lords, more machine and specialty units. This is what skaven brought ot the table with DLC and what wins for them.

    If you removed those tools, buffs, spells, you'd see quickly how well their line folds. You're woefully failing to realize how much of a difference that backline gives them.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,131
    Matter is: if rarity of assets was represented in the game, then CA could go crazy with unreleased unit concept: a few experimental flying monsters or machines for Skaven would be cool. But the moment you add something to a roster, it can be spammed to hell destroying the identity of a faction. It's like adding a Maus model to a WWII game without any restriction and finding that the whole Wehrmacht is made of Maus tanks in the end.
  • karge068karge068 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,411
    I thought this was a troll thread but OK....

    With their DLCs they have one of the most deadly, well rounded rosters in the game. I think leave them without flyers to give them one small weakness. They can easily net and/or shoot enemy flyers out of the sky anyway.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,194
    Xenos7777 said:

    Matter is: if rarity of assets was represented in the game, then CA could go crazy with unreleased unit concept: a few experimental flying monsters or machines for Skaven would be cool. But the moment you add something to a roster, it can be spammed to hell destroying the identity of a faction. It's like adding a Maus model to a WWII game without any restriction and finding that the whole Wehrmacht is made of Maus tanks in the end.

    In reference to the Warpstone Dragon, I think it’s reasonable to have one in the entire game. You must track it, catch it, spend money to Skavenise it and if it drops to a certain HP, it leaves the battlefield and requires a fresh monster hunt. One for Clan Moulder, Throt specifically.
  • drogarito92drogarito92 Registered Users Posts: 323
  • drogarito92drogarito92 Registered Users Posts: 323



    this is what you get when you type skaven flying units
  • Wtfah114Wtfah114 Registered Users Posts: 321






    First that is aid, second those are not even aos skaven but aos dwarf.
Sign In or Register to comment.