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Genuine Greenskins balance suggestions

Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 794
OK, let's try it again, but for real this time. There's things that are overperforming and things that are underperforming. Some of those might be horrible ideas, but I'd still like to share them.

Well then, which are the three main complaints with GS right now?

I'd say it's

1: Spider Rider Archers

2: Stone Trolls

3: Grom

Spider Rider Archers: +80G, -5 Ammo, slightly reduced reload time. This is gonna mean they aren't quite as spammable and cannot sustain their poison rate for quite as long. The reduced reload time does technically increase their ranged dps but also makes them prone to wasting their now quite limited ammo (and let's be honest... noone picks these guys because they deal any meaningful amount of damage). This may not look very drastic, but you need to remember that the thing making them powerful isn't their statline which is quite honestly pretty abysmal, it's their low price and their ability to easily apply poison across the board.

Stone Trolls: Now, Stone Trolls are an interesting one. The thing most people are gonna be complaining about are their resistances and I'm not gonna change those. I think there's two ways to go about nerfing them. One is the obvious stat bomb which might have to be applied either way: +150G, -7 MD, -7 Speed, -8 CB. One idea would also be to increase their attack intervall which would lower their dps.

The other one would be a change to all trolls in general and this would definitely need some testing ahead of time: change their leadership system. The thing is, trolls are stupid. Really freaking stupid, in fact. So stupid that it even affects their ability for self-preservation. Instead of having them break and flee away from combat (which gives them an opportunity to make good use of their regeneration), they could derp out. Kind of simular to rampage, but instead of charging whatever enemy unit is closest, they'll mostly just stand around, having forgotten what they were meant to do. Even if they are currently getting shot at. They'd have a short aggro range and if an any unit got within say, 30 meters of them, they'll attack it, but well, otherwise they'll just stand around and take it.

The issue with this idea is quite obviously that it would technically unbreakable which might be more of a buff than a nerf, so there's definitely still some kinks to be worked out. One possible fix would be to still let the trolls shatter eventually at which point they'll just run off the map, though it might take more derps than it takes regular leadership breaks to shatter them.

Grom: Now, I don't really want to hit Groms general statline too hard, there should at least be one somewhat good chariot lord in the game. Maybe take down his armour to 85 or 80, since his entire belly is not protected at all, so he probably shouldn't have quite as much armour. Grom's does however also have major issues in terms of his abilities, specifically Language of da Boyz and his Lucky Banner so I'd change those:

Language of da Boyz: Reduce Effect Range to 30m. Swap out melee defence for melee attack. Change trigger requirements to being in melee for 15 seconds so you can't just hit&run to keep the effect up.

Lucky Banner: Recharge condition: Not in melee. This means that you have to be a bit more tactical and have to decide if you want Grom for his support capabilities by leaving him in melee or if you want to maximize his survivability by cycle charging him instead.


Various other changes:

Vindictive Glare: Cost +2 (up to 6). Vindictive Glare Upgraded: Cost +6 (up to 14). I'm honestly not too concerned with the damage it's dealing, it's supposed to be quite deadly after all (iirc there's a moment in the lore where Karl Franz gets hit by it and everyone except Deathclaw assumes he's dead for like half an hour which to me implies that for one, people are used to seeing it kill and also that it's enough to incapacitate even a powerful warrior quite easily) but it shouldn't be anywhere near as cheap and spammable as it is now.

Mither: Range down to 80, Cooldown up to 120, unlimited uses.

Spinning Loons (NOT The Loons of Eight Peaks): Only 1 use.


Potential buffs:

I think one way to stirr away the greenskins from the current meta would also be to improve upon some other units and abilities.

Tricksy Traps: +10 LD, +10 MD. Now, the thing with Tricksy Traps is, it's pretty expensive for an ability that you are realistically only going to be using once a battle, especially if you could instead just bring Night Shroud which, whilst costing some magic, has the advantage of not being centered around the caster. Giving Tricksy Traps a slight boost to combat relevant stats helps to make it more useful.

Orc Warboss: Noone ever picks the Orc Warboss. Anything he can do, someone else does either better or cheaper. He hasn't been good ever since the early days of Warhammer 1 when they decided to stop generic lords from being able to bring potions of healing and/or toughness. From my perspective there's three ways of helping him out:

1: Buffing his stats. Probably not the best way, he's already quite bulky and he'd still directly compete with the other lords. For only 100 extra base cost you get Azhag who has better stats and access to better abilities and items and spells.

2: Reducing his cost. This might be a decent enough option. The OWB is honestly quite pricy for what he does compared to simular lords from other factions, even factoring in that Greenskin lords in general pay a premium ever since waaagh was made an army ability. Cutting his price down by maybe 150 might make him a bit more interesting for certain builds.

3: Give him a good item. Right now he gets the Opal Amulet iirc which is not a horrible item (basically a Von Carstein Ring lite) but it's also just not a good reason to bring a specific lord. It makes him better, no question, but it isn't really impactful on the battlefield. It would have to be an item that, if properly used, could really turn the tide of combat. For that, I'd see three options: a) A scroll or item with a bound spell (maybe move the stone bombardment one from the River Troll Hag to the Warboss). b) Some sort of healing item (i.e. potion of toughness). c) The infamous helm of discord.

I think by now the Greenskins have enough interesting and unique legendary lords that buffing one of their generic lords won't make all of the LL's obsolete, but it would be nice if there would still be a use case for them.

Rogue Idol. Turn it into a construct. It really shouldn't rout. That's just a depressing sight.

Giant (for all factions): Increase speed to 50. It's got long legs and should be able to outpace infantry. This would also possibly help it get to the frontline without immediately getting shot to bits. Possibly also increase its armour to 50 to represent it having thick skin (again, make it a bit more survivable to missile fire).

Boar units (all): +7 Speed, +45% charge speed

Boar Boyz (regular): +5 MD, +4 Weapon damage

Boar Big'Uns (Savage): +5 Anti-large

Squig Herd: Change Squigs Go Wild ability to: When Rampaged, gain +12 Leadership and +10 melee attack. Increase base LD by 7 (up to 43) or lower cost to 450.

Night Goblin Fanatics (NOT the Eight Peak Loonies): Add Ability "Mushroom Brew": For 30 Seconds, gain +20 LD and Immune to Psych at the cost of Rampage and losing 10 MD. Max uses 2, Cooldown 90 Seconds.

Teef Robbers: AP swap for missiles, price up to 725.

Random campaign things:

1: Change default garrison leader to either Night Goblin Shaman or BOBB (Orc Shaman gets added by the Shaman hut building anyways). The GoBB is utterly useless without his mount and abilities to the point where having him as a commander over a random infantry unit is more of a nerf. BOBB would be idea, but since he's FLC content I can understand that adding him to garrisons might be difficult. At that point, I'd rather have a Shaman with Vindictive Glare and/or Sneaky Stabbing over the Goblin Big Boss.

2: Give Iron Rock a unique and powerful garrison building at T3. It's supposed to be the most formidable Greenskin fortress in the badlands, one the dwarfs haven't been able to reconquer in spite of their best efforts for centuries and yet in campaign it is utterly undefendable due to it just being a minor settlement and having a particularily exposed position. You technically need to hold both the western badlands and the silver road if you don't want Iron Rock to get taken all the time.

3: Change Grom's starting position (in Mortal Empires) when not playing as him to either Misty Mountain or Massif Orcal. He's almost impossible to confederate because he tends to get wiped out within the first 15 turns due to his horrible start on Ulthuan. Also, move Skarsnik when not playing as him to Eight-Peaks for simular reasons (this is also gonna make Clan Angrund Campaigns a lot more interesting).

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Comments

  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,859
    You want to increase the cost of a unit by 20% AND reduce their ammo, and you are telling me this are serious balance proposals?


    The nerf to stone trolls is a similar overreaction.

    I stopped reading the rest because, well...
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,180
    Just glance around,
    But i still dont believe giant need a speed buff anymore. 1500, 600ws, 9000+ HP with 100LD is honestly a steal. Yes, it gets shot, its a bit slow, but thats why you get the other stats for so cheap. Their speed can easily keep up or faster than heavy infantry and you want them to move in together with your main army anyways. He is a missile sponge for your army.
    Against factions with weak range, its not bad.

    I think the only buff is change his splash radius to be more effective in killing infantry. He takes too long to kill models for something with 600ws.
  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 794
    Pocman said:

    You want to increase the cost of a unit by 20% AND reduce their ammo, and you are telling me this are serious balance proposals?


    The nerf to stone trolls is a similar overreaction.

    I stopped reading the rest because, well...

    Well, that's a pity because that means you only got two of the three major nerf suggestions and nothing besides that in a rather lengthy post (including any of the buffs/changes).

    It also means that your response isn't something I'll consider valid criticism.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,595

    Just glance around,
    But i still dont believe giant need a speed buff anymore. 1500, 600ws, 9000+ HP with 100LD is honestly a steal. Yes, it gets shot, its a bit slow, but thats why you get the other stats for so cheap. Their speed can easily keep up or faster than heavy infantry and you want them to move in together with your main army anyways. He is a missile sponge for your army.
    Against factions with weak range, its not bad.

    I think the only buff is change his splash radius to be more effective in killing infantry. He takes too long to kill models for something with 600ws.

    I would just give the giant 15 Missile Resist and call it a day. This way he is better vs his hard counter but the same vs it's good targets
  • MalevolentWaffleMalevolentWaffle Registered Users Posts: 36
    A lot of good ideas I think. However I really dont think trolls needs to be redone, the problem with stone trolls is that Grom removes their only weakness. So the problem lies with Grom and not with the trolls, although they could probably lose some resistances. Ive always though that Groms Language of the boys should only affect goblins, and then give Grimgor a similiar ability that affects orcs but IDK.

    As for vindictive glare there needs to a change soon. It is sooo spammable and does too much damage, its ridonkulous and no fun to play against. It reminds me of the OP spirit leech spam in WH1.

    The fact that GS have gone this long without any meaningful nerfs despite their clear overperformance is really worrying in terms of MP support.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,342
    try playing with stone trolls without grom (or nerfed grom) and without spider riders. Won't be the same experience at all. The unit is fine; it's the skirmish dominance + the fanatics and grom that are amping up the faction too much.

  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 794

    Ive always though that Groms Language of the boys should only affect goblins, and then give Grimgor a similiar ability that affects orcs but IDK.

    Would be kind of neat and thematic but it also would require a big old patch to give basically the entire Greenskin roster the Moulder Monster treatment of tagging a unit as a certain thing so it can be the target of specific abilities. At that point, there kind of would have to be more abilities like that to really justify having this entire system in the first place.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,337
    Any nerfs should be to cost not stats. Not everyone plays exclusively MP so nerfing stone trolls for example so they end up playing like regular trolls isn’t good.

    In single player it’s important they’re different to other types of trolls. In MP, nerf their cost if they’re op
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,947
    Theo91 said:

    Any nerfs should be to cost not stats. Not everyone plays exclusively MP so nerfing stone trolls for example so they end up playing like regular trolls isn’t good.

    In single player it’s important they’re different to other types of trolls. In MP, nerf their cost if they’re op

    LoL, in SP you pile up roughly five billion buffs on your units anyway, so whatever base stats a unit has is largely irrelevant.
  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 794
    Theo91 said:

    Any nerfs should be to cost not stats. Not everyone plays exclusively MP so nerfing stone trolls for example so they end up playing like regular trolls isn’t good.

    In single player it’s important they’re different to other types of trolls. In MP, nerf their cost if they’re op

    That's how you end up with units that noone uses because you can't budget around them properly. Besides, it's not like my proposed nerfs make Stone Trolls more simular to regular trolls. Both melee defence and speed are currently identical between the two anyways and making them a bit slower and more sluggish would actually contribute to giving them a different roll to regular trolls instead of just being better in every way.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 5,000
    Stone Troll nerf seems too much, speed reduction should be enough and thematic. Somewhat agree with the rest.

    Also wrote the similar thing about Orc Warboss many times. Dude is super squishy for an orc. More squishy than pointy ear princesses even and you can't easy regrowth him.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,337

    Theo91 said:

    Any nerfs should be to cost not stats. Not everyone plays exclusively MP so nerfing stone trolls for example so they end up playing like regular trolls isn’t good.

    In single player it’s important they’re different to other types of trolls. In MP, nerf their cost if they’re op

    That's how you end up with units that noone uses because you can't budget around them properly. Besides, it's not like my proposed nerfs make Stone Trolls more simular to regular trolls. Both melee defence and speed are currently identical between the two anyways and making them a bit slower and more sluggish would actually contribute to giving them a different roll to regular trolls instead of just being better in every way.
    They’re supposed to be tankier and harder hitting... which they are. Making them slower isn’t required, giants already fill the role of slow monster everyone hates.

    I’m not sure what the argument is against price nerfs (if required). Everything can be balanced through price
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    I dont think stone trolls need a nerf, their stats are good but nothing special.
    I dont agree with only giving Grom a slight nerf, he's far too common a pick and the easiest target for nerfing GS without changing their style overly
    I dont agree with giving GS better cavalry and much worse skirmishers

    I'd rather they tweak the faction than change it.
    Grom +200 cost
    Skarsnik +75 cost
    spider archers +25
    fanatics: loon 1 shot

    that should balance the faction imo, without causing any drastic changes except making grom a less common pick
  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 794
    Theo91 said:


    Everything can be balanced through price

    That's where I disagree. Certain things simply remain broken until they are so severely overpriced that you cannot justify using them.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 921
    RawSugar said:

    I dont think stone trolls need a nerf, their stats are good but nothing special.
    I dont agree with only giving Grom a slight nerf, he's far too common a pick and the easiest target for nerfing GS without changing their style overly
    I dont agree with giving GS better cavalry and much worse skirmishers

    I'd rather they tweak the faction than change it.
    Grom +200 cost
    Skarsnik +75 cost
    spider archers +25
    fanatics: loon 1 shot

    that should balance the faction imo, without causing any drastic changes except making grom a less common pick

    Don't think the exact numbers are right, but better as a general concept.

    Although reality is that whatever nerfs/buffs GS are going to get have already been decided on at this point. Now it is just waiting and seeing what the patch notes bring.
    Discord/Steam Name: Glorious Feeder
  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 794
    RawSugar said:

    I dont think stone trolls need a nerf, their stats are good but nothing special.
    I dont agree with only giving Grom a slight nerf, he's far too common a pick and the easiest target for nerfing GS without changing their style overly
    I dont agree with giving GS better cavalry and much worse skirmishers

    I'd rather they tweak the faction than change it.
    Grom +200 cost
    Skarsnik +75 cost
    spider archers +25
    fanatics: loon 1 shot

    that should balance the faction imo, without causing any drastic changes except making grom a less common pick

    Well, here's the thing, Grom already is quite expensive. He's got the highest base price out of all Greenskin lords and then you are gonna be throwing in those abilities.

    And again, it's the wrong approach. We don't wanna punish people for playing Grom, we wanna punish people for playing troll cancer poison spam builds and those are still entirely possible at 200 more with some smart budgeting.

    Throwing a bigger pricetag on everything you don't like doesn't do anything to properly fix the balancing, it only creates long term issues.

    That aside, why DO greenskins have 4 different heavy cav units if none of them is even remotely worth using? And it's not like I'm advocating for turning them into a bunch of green demigryphs, I'm just turning them somewhat usable because fact of the matter is, you are better off investing 650 in xp chevrons than you are investing them into Boar Boyz.

    And "much worse skirmishers" is also an overstatement. It's 1 unit that is absurdly underpriced and can easily nerf the damage of like half of the enemy army by 20% for an entire battle. Greenskin cav pricing currently doesn't make sense. Like, why tf are Squig Herd 500 and Boar Boyz 650 whilst Spider Rider Archers are sitting at 450 which is the same as basic Orc Boyz?
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,947
    Theo91 said:


    I’m not sure what the argument is against price nerfs (if required). Everything can be balanced through price

    No.

    What's the correct price of a unit that could one-shot half a dozen other units from across the map with unfailing accuracy? Only one correct answer, too expensive to be fielded ever. So that's practically minus one unit for a race. Does that sound like a good solution? Much better to just not have it one-shot half a dozen units from across the map with unfailing accuracy by nerfing that ability.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,560
    language of boyz reduce duration by at least 1/2
    lucky banner reduce wardsave by 10%
    Fanatics +cost
    Missive cav +25g
    Waghh +10% points needed
    Posion -5% effect

    Those should be good GS nerfs.

    Perhaps buff idol/ boar chariot and warboss
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349

    RawSugar said:

    I dont think stone trolls need a nerf, their stats are good but nothing special.
    I dont agree with only giving Grom a slight nerf, he's far too common a pick and the easiest target for nerfing GS without changing their style overly
    I dont agree with giving GS better cavalry and much worse skirmishers

    I'd rather they tweak the faction than change it.
    Grom +200 cost
    Skarsnik +75 cost
    spider archers +25
    fanatics: loon 1 shot

    that should balance the faction imo, without causing any drastic changes except making grom a less common pick

    Well, here's the thing, Grom already is quite expensive. He's got the highest base price out of all Greenskin lords and then you are gonna be throwing in those abilities.

    And again, it's the wrong approach. We don't wanna punish people for playing Grom, we wanna punish people for playing troll cancer poison spam builds and those are still entirely possible at 200 more with some smart budgeting.

    Throwing a bigger pricetag on everything you don't like doesn't do anything to properly fix the balancing, it only creates long term issues.

    That aside, why DO greenskins have 4 different heavy cav units if none of them is even remotely worth using? And it's not like I'm advocating for turning them into a bunch of green demigryphs, I'm just turning them somewhat usable because fact of the matter is, you are better off investing 650 in xp chevrons than you are investing them into Boar Boyz.

    And "much worse skirmishers" is also an overstatement. It's 1 unit that is absurdly underpriced and can easily nerf the damage of like half of the enemy army by 20% for an entire battle. Greenskin cav pricing currently doesn't make sense. Like, why tf are Squig Herd 500 and Boar Boyz 650 whilst Spider Rider Archers are sitting at 450 which is the same as basic Orc Boyz?
    The issue with Grom isnt a combination with him and some specific army but rather that he gives strong fast melee to the faction, that makes him extremely useful. He's not overly effective or anything he just offers more to the roster he's in than the other lords. the point of nerfing him is to balance the game without having to rebalance it, lords/heroes that are used all the time are just the least invasive way to nerf a faction.
    your suggestion of giving huge nerfs to spider archers and fanatics in return for buffs to cavalry might be balanced, its hard to say because you are making some fairly big changes to the faction including softening the faction identity of having subpar cavalry
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349

    Theo91 said:


    I’m not sure what the argument is against price nerfs (if required). Everything can be balanced through price

    No.

    What's the correct price of a unit that could one-shot half a dozen other units from across the map with unfailing accuracy? Only one correct answer, too expensive to be fielded ever. So that's practically minus one unit for a race. Does that sound like a good solution? Much better to just not have it one-shot half a dozen units from across the map with unfailing accuracy by nerfing that ability.
    I'd say you're confusing good/bad design with balanced design. you absolutely can balance a unit like that via cost its just really **** design that isnt fun or interesting for anyone. Anyway that scenario is closer to a unit like hawkriders that have generally small upside and next to no counters, it doesnt really apply to any of the GS units that all have counters and/or conditions for being effective. Anyway cost can balance anything, balance just isnt the only concern in gamedesign
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,947
    RawSugar said:

    Theo91 said:


    I’m not sure what the argument is against price nerfs (if required). Everything can be balanced through price

    No.

    What's the correct price of a unit that could one-shot half a dozen other units from across the map with unfailing accuracy? Only one correct answer, too expensive to be fielded ever. So that's practically minus one unit for a race. Does that sound like a good solution? Much better to just not have it one-shot half a dozen units from across the map with unfailing accuracy by nerfing that ability.
    I'd say you're confusing good/bad design with balanced design. you absolutely can balance a unit like that via cost its just really **** design that isnt fun or interesting for anyone. Anyway that scenario is closer to a unit like hawkriders that have generally small upside and next to no counters, it doesnt really apply to any of the GS units that all have counters and/or conditions for being effective. Anyway cost can balance anything, balance just isnt the only concern in gamedesign
    What's the correct price for a unit that one-shots half a dozen other units from across the map?
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    edited June 5

    RawSugar said:

    Theo91 said:


    I’m not sure what the argument is against price nerfs (if required). Everything can be balanced through price

    No.

    What's the correct price of a unit that could one-shot half a dozen other units from across the map with unfailing accuracy? Only one correct answer, too expensive to be fielded ever. So that's practically minus one unit for a race. Does that sound like a good solution? Much better to just not have it one-shot half a dozen units from across the map with unfailing accuracy by nerfing that ability.
    I'd say you're confusing good/bad design with balanced design. you absolutely can balance a unit like that via cost its just really **** design that isnt fun or interesting for anyone. Anyway that scenario is closer to a unit like hawkriders that have generally small upside and next to no counters, it doesnt really apply to any of the GS units that all have counters and/or conditions for being effective. Anyway cost can balance anything, balance just isnt the only concern in gamedesign
    What's the correct price for a unit that one-shots half a dozen other units from across the map?
    base cost of body+average price of units annihilated, or 100% the price of the faction where it doe the highest average damage. I assumed you meant as a 1 time ability though, if you mean as a repeatable ability ie a unit that will always win the battle on its own with no counter then yeah sure you can make a unit where price is higher than available funds. you can still find a balanced price for the unit though. even if that price is infinite depending on ROF etc
    If ROF is low enough its possible to reach and kill it before it reaches 20 units balancedcost might be 10K-12K though. again. worst gamedesign imaginable but possible to balance.
  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 794
    RawSugar said:

    That's not their faction identity, that's an implementation issue. Their faction identity does include not having super high tier cav and those buffs still wouldn't get them anywhere near that level, but that doesn't mean that the high-mid to low-high tier they have (and I'm talking price range here, as they are technically all low-tier) needs to be worse or less usable than anything any other faction gets in that price range.

    Orc Boars are supposed to be scary and powerful, not some kind of joke unit that takes ages to get anywhere and is likely to get shot to pieces beforehand or just straight-up picked apart by even the most basic skirmishers in sustained melee (in fact, it could be argued that they ought to have above average sustained combat stats compared with most other cav units at their level because a war boar is a much more vicious, strong and dangerous animal compared to a horse).

    There's a reason these lads are prominently featured in a lot of warhammer iconography and it's not because they are particularily whacky or funny, it's because they are iconic and impressive and because a great number of boar mobs crashing into a frontline is exactly what you wanna see in a warhammer game. Just a pity that you never see it. Because Boar Boyz are a waste of money. Because they are horrible.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    no defo factions have units that are better or worse than the average version of those units. factions arent just balanced by what unittypes they have access to but also the quality of those units.
    GS cavalry are fairly niche, they are AP and shock, but there are some few matchups where they are decent choices and can deal with things GS might otherwise struggle with
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,606

    RawSugar said:

    Theo91 said:


    I’m not sure what the argument is against price nerfs (if required). Everything can be balanced through price

    No.

    What's the correct price of a unit that could one-shot half a dozen other units from across the map with unfailing accuracy? Only one correct answer, too expensive to be fielded ever. So that's practically minus one unit for a race. Does that sound like a good solution? Much better to just not have it one-shot half a dozen units from across the map with unfailing accuracy by nerfing that ability.
    I'd say you're confusing good/bad design with balanced design. you absolutely can balance a unit like that via cost its just really **** design that isnt fun or interesting for anyone. Anyway that scenario is closer to a unit like hawkriders that have generally small upside and next to no counters, it doesnt really apply to any of the GS units that all have counters and/or conditions for being effective. Anyway cost can balance anything, balance just isnt the only concern in gamedesign
    What's the correct price for a unit that one-shots half a dozen other units from across the map?
    Well the templehof is 1900

    Compare to OC vindictive glare caster.

    Apart from vs tk the damage to many targets is similar.

    Cost, survivability and ease of use quite different propositions
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,947
    edited June 5
    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    Theo91 said:


    I’m not sure what the argument is against price nerfs (if required). Everything can be balanced through price

    No.

    What's the correct price of a unit that could one-shot half a dozen other units from across the map with unfailing accuracy? Only one correct answer, too expensive to be fielded ever. So that's practically minus one unit for a race. Does that sound like a good solution? Much better to just not have it one-shot half a dozen units from across the map with unfailing accuracy by nerfing that ability.
    I'd say you're confusing good/bad design with balanced design. you absolutely can balance a unit like that via cost its just really **** design that isnt fun or interesting for anyone. Anyway that scenario is closer to a unit like hawkriders that have generally small upside and next to no counters, it doesnt really apply to any of the GS units that all have counters and/or conditions for being effective. Anyway cost can balance anything, balance just isnt the only concern in gamedesign
    What's the correct price for a unit that one-shots half a dozen other units from across the map?
    base cost of body+average price of units annihilated, or 100% the price of the faction where it doe the highest average damage. I assumed you meant as a 1 time ability though, if you mean as a repeatable ability ie a unit that will always win the battle on its own with no counter then yeah sure you can make a unit where price is higher than available funds. you can still find a balanced price for the unit though. even if that price is infinite depending on ROF etc
    If ROF is low enough its possible to reach and kill it before it reaches 20 units balancedcost might be 10K-12K though. again. worst gamedesign imaginable but possible to balance.
    I guess I wasn't clear.

    I'm talking about a hypothetical unit that can one-shot half a dozen enemy units at any time during the battle from any position. You start the battle with your enemy fielding this and you are immediately down six units because they got cheese-whizzed off the board.

    If the hypothesis that you can balance by price alone is right, then there's a price that allows fielding this unit without turning the battle into a complete farce. What would that price be?
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349

    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    Theo91 said:


    I’m not sure what the argument is against price nerfs (if required). Everything can be balanced through price

    No.

    What's the correct price of a unit that could one-shot half a dozen other units from across the map with unfailing accuracy? Only one correct answer, too expensive to be fielded ever. So that's practically minus one unit for a race. Does that sound like a good solution? Much better to just not have it one-shot half a dozen units from across the map with unfailing accuracy by nerfing that ability.
    I'd say you're confusing good/bad design with balanced design. you absolutely can balance a unit like that via cost its just really **** design that isnt fun or interesting for anyone. Anyway that scenario is closer to a unit like hawkriders that have generally small upside and next to no counters, it doesnt really apply to any of the GS units that all have counters and/or conditions for being effective. Anyway cost can balance anything, balance just isnt the only concern in gamedesign
    What's the correct price for a unit that one-shots half a dozen other units from across the map?
    base cost of body+average price of units annihilated, or 100% the price of the faction where it doe the highest average damage. I assumed you meant as a 1 time ability though, if you mean as a repeatable ability ie a unit that will always win the battle on its own with no counter then yeah sure you can make a unit where price is higher than available funds. you can still find a balanced price for the unit though. even if that price is infinite depending on ROF etc
    If ROF is low enough its possible to reach and kill it before it reaches 20 units balancedcost might be 10K-12K though. again. worst gamedesign imaginable but possible to balance.
    I guess I wasn't clear.

    I'm talking about a hypothetical unit that can one-shot half a dozen enemy units at any time during the battle from any position. You start the battle with your enemy fielding this and you are immediately down six units because they got cheese-whizzed off the board.

    If the hypothesis that you can balance by price alone is right, then there's a price that allows fielding this unit without turning the battle into a complete farce. What would that price be?
    I...just answered that?
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,947
    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    Theo91 said:


    I’m not sure what the argument is against price nerfs (if required). Everything can be balanced through price

    No.

    What's the correct price of a unit that could one-shot half a dozen other units from across the map with unfailing accuracy? Only one correct answer, too expensive to be fielded ever. So that's practically minus one unit for a race. Does that sound like a good solution? Much better to just not have it one-shot half a dozen units from across the map with unfailing accuracy by nerfing that ability.
    I'd say you're confusing good/bad design with balanced design. you absolutely can balance a unit like that via cost its just really **** design that isnt fun or interesting for anyone. Anyway that scenario is closer to a unit like hawkriders that have generally small upside and next to no counters, it doesnt really apply to any of the GS units that all have counters and/or conditions for being effective. Anyway cost can balance anything, balance just isnt the only concern in gamedesign
    What's the correct price for a unit that one-shots half a dozen other units from across the map?
    base cost of body+average price of units annihilated, or 100% the price of the faction where it doe the highest average damage. I assumed you meant as a 1 time ability though, if you mean as a repeatable ability ie a unit that will always win the battle on its own with no counter then yeah sure you can make a unit where price is higher than available funds. you can still find a balanced price for the unit though. even if that price is infinite depending on ROF etc
    If ROF is low enough its possible to reach and kill it before it reaches 20 units balancedcost might be 10K-12K though. again. worst gamedesign imaginable but possible to balance.
    I guess I wasn't clear.

    I'm talking about a hypothetical unit that can one-shot half a dozen enemy units at any time during the battle from any position. You start the battle with your enemy fielding this and you are immediately down six units because they got cheese-whizzed off the board.

    If the hypothesis that you can balance by price alone is right, then there's a price that allows fielding this unit without turning the battle into a complete farce. What would that price be?
    I...just answered that?
    No, you didn't. You didn't name a price that would allow both using the unit and not ruin any battle it shows up in.

    Name one, demonstrate that it would work or admit that you can't balance by price alone.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 961
    edited June 6
    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    Theo91 said:


    I’m not sure what the argument is against price nerfs (if required). Everything can be balanced through price

    No.

    What's the correct price of a unit that could one-shot half a dozen other units from across the map with unfailing accuracy? Only one correct answer, too expensive to be fielded ever. So that's practically minus one unit for a race. Does that sound like a good solution? Much better to just not have it one-shot half a dozen units from across the map with unfailing accuracy by nerfing that ability.
    I'd say you're confusing good/bad design with balanced design. you absolutely can balance a unit like that via cost its just really **** design that isnt fun or interesting for anyone. Anyway that scenario is closer to a unit like hawkriders that have generally small upside and next to no counters, it doesnt really apply to any of the GS units that all have counters and/or conditions for being effective. Anyway cost can balance anything, balance just isnt the only concern in gamedesign
    What's the correct price for a unit that one-shots half a dozen other units from across the map?
    base cost of body+average price of units annihilated, or 100% the price of the faction where it doe the highest average damage. I assumed you meant as a 1 time ability though, if you mean as a repeatable ability ie a unit that will always win the battle on its own with no counter then yeah sure you can make a unit where price is higher than available funds. you can still find a balanced price for the unit though. even if that price is infinite depending on ROF etc
    If ROF is low enough its possible to reach and kill it before it reaches 20 units balancedcost might be 10K-12K though. again. worst gamedesign imaginable but possible to balance.
    Ok, to be fair, if you're pricing a unit to the point it can't be used in multiplayer, then you didn't balance it with cost, you balanced it by not letting anyone take it. That basically admitting you were unable to balance it with cost alone. It was so unbalanced that you had to remove it. If that's how you balance the unit then you might as well only make it available in custom games like they do with campaign units.

    Obviously these are both ludicrous extremes. Units that cost infinite points or one shot armies don't exist and wont exist. However, some units can still have their cost increased to a point were they are no longer are able to synergize with a roster's design or play style. this would cause a unit to become worthless for the sake of making it a fair price. In that case it would have been better to adjust the unit itself.
    Post edited by User_Clue on
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,447
    Possible solution to the stone troll problem; give all trolls rampage, reduce their cost if needed, and maybe up their leadership a little to compensate. It’s pretty justified seeing as they had the stupidity rule in tabletop.
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