What different players want from TW3K and considerations for a game 2

TheTrue_LordAndy#1434

So after gathering information from various websites, discussion boards etc. I have come to some basic conclusions about what different players are wanting from a total war three kingdoms game and this varies based on certain player demographics. (Note with my limited ability and time constraints I can only come to some basic conclusions, for CA these type of conclusions should be corroborated with proper survey sampling techniques and statistical hypothesis testing. Some of my answers can be used as a null hypothesis and tested to see if these hypotheses can or cannot be statistically rejected for different player demographics.). But anyways I won't talk in depth about statistics because I am sure that CA has some analytical people who are well aware of analytical methods.

The basic player categories and what they want based on purely my observation are as follows:


1. Total war fans with no or very limited three kingdoms knowledge. An example of these type of players are people like the youtube content creators Mr Smart Donkey and Hier of Carthage. People in this category tend to like the Nanman DLC the most because, for them adding new cultures seems more interesting, whereas the lack of three kingdoms knowledge and/ or their personal limited immersion in the setting does not give them an appreciation for secondary and tertiary characters. For example they would not be super excited that Lu Bu in fates divided got unique generals for Gao Sun and Chen Gong as they did not know who they were to begin with. Whereas three kingdoms fans are very happy to see more unique character additions.

This category can be further split in two. I purposely mentioned the above two content creators in this category, because they are indicitive of two subgroups within this player demographic. The first like Mr Smart Donkey, can come to really enjoy the period and game if the game mechanics and gameplay experience are enjoyable. Whereas the second like Hier, feel that the setting is so disconnected from their personal preference that they can't get immersed in this setting at all. The first group in this category can buy a three kingdoms game under certain conditions, while the second group is unlikely regardless of how good the gameplay is.

The western audience for the most part falls in this category. For many dedicated total war fans, bug fixing, patching and gameplay are some of the most important factors when considering buying a total war game and personal enjoyment. For this audience battle tactics and campaign mechanics are more appealing than the narrative per say.

2. Three Kingdoms fans who are not total war fans. For the most part this demographic comes from the Chinese player base as expected. For these players having a complete narrative with tons of secondary and tertiary characters is extremely relevant. While this player base can come to become fans of the total war franchise, they care more about seeing a complete three kingdoms game. These type of players are more likely to use mods like Make the unique and total unique pack, because they really want to be immersed in the character aspect of the game and have even what some may deem as secondary or tertiary characters as unique. Gameplay, patches and bug fixing are likely to be important to this demographic to a varying degree. This demographic unlike the first may value culture packs less than the first if they are disconnected from the three kingdoms narrative. (For example a Korean culture pack.). (Although Nanman would be relevant to this group since obviously they were included in the three kingdoms story with Zhuge Liangs southern expedition). For these players though playing a Zhuge Liang southern expedition or nanman rebellion against Shu-Han would be more relevant than the Nanman 190 start).


3. Total war and Three Kingdoms fans. This group has a combination of characteristics from the first two groups and is where I personally fall. Content creator Serious Trivia is an example of someone in this group. For this group patching, bug fixes, campaign mechanics and overall gameplay is very important. At the same time the narrative and unique characters are also very important to this group. This category can be further split into two sub categories with one leaning on heavier gameplay mechanic interest (these are your min/max players) and players who while they want a good total war experience, appreciate more of the narrative and character focus for three kingdoms. This category of players can be the most starch critics of the game since they want both a great total war experience, battle tactics, limited bugs as well as a complete narrative with many unique characters. Many people on this forum for example tend to fall in this #3 category. While some of the most harsh critics, these players tend to like this game the most and are the most loyal to this franchise and are also more likely to appreciate different types of DLCS like chapter packs and expansion packs.



4. Casual players who are not hard core fans of total war or three Kingdoms. These players are purely drawn in if their first experience with the game is fun. These players tend to have less of an attention span and can get discouraged if they are challenged or if they feel that the game mechanics are too hard. These players are likely to need a fun tutorial to walk them through the game similar to how Warhammer one had a nice pre campaign battle tutorial option when playing as Karl Franz or Grimgor. The main thing to retain these players is to hook them and slowly transform them into one of the above three categories. These players are likely to find a Liu Yan campaign for example as too complex as they don't yet understand the nuances of the game mechanics and don't have much total war experience. On the contrary categories 1 and 3 will really like a Liu Yan type faction.

5. Casual players who are three kingdoms fans but not total war fans. Similar to #4 but more likely to want a full narrative and many unique characters.

6. Casual players who are total war fans but not three kingdoms fans. This category will be a combination of 1 and 4 and are the hardest customers to gain or maintain for a three kingdoms game as they may not be able to relate or get excited about the setting. Making a great total war game experience will be key for these players. These players don't min max, tend to play on lower difficulties and just want to have an enjoyable low effort time with the game, although may still want some tactical challenges and be rewarded for good decisions, as total war is a strategy game after all.



So the point of breaking down all these player demographics is to try and pinpoint how to make a three kingdoms game that can appeal to as many as possible.

Other threads have suggested making a game 2 launch with all the relevant start dates. This would be a great strategy in my mind as it would avoid the feeling that the narrative is incomplete for all the three kingdoms fans. Also, this would avoid the problem with chapter pack DLCs that do not appeal to the total war but not three kingdoms fans and anyone who feels that new start dates don't add much to the game. Launching the game with multiple start dates may make things easier from a programing perspective too, as a 182 or 190 start can flow into the next "chapter packs" with relevant historical events more seamlessly and without having to add elements of this with future DLC's. The base game of a game 2 should also start with TONS more unique characters, while CA has admittedly great art for characters, they need to make all relevant characters unique. There is no reason they can't do this when modders can. (even if modders mostly recycle in game assets).

On the other hand DLC's can focus on unlocking more playable factions across multiple start dates as well as introducing new cultures. For example we would only get DLC's that add new cultures, but with every DLC we would get several more Han factions that become playable and with new mechanics. For example a Qiang culture pack can and Qiang factions as well as unlock Han Sui, Ma Teng/ Ma Chao as playable factions all with well developed mechanics modeled after how fates divided made Cao Cao's mechanic very fun and in depth. More relevant unique characters can be added depending on the faction. For example, Han Sui could have his eight knights and Ma Teng should have his two sons as well as Ma Dai and Pang De for example.


Additionally given the criticism of moving on from game 1, game 2 should feature the following:

1. Include unique characters and content from game one, while making SUBSTANTIAL additions.
2. Tons of unique characters
3. All start dates from mandate of heaven through rise of the Jin included in the base game
4. Dedication to continued patch support and bug fixes after every DLC
5. DLCs focus on new culture packs (such as Yellow turban, Yue, Di, Qiang, Xiongnu, Wuhuan, Xianbei, Jie, Nanman, maybe Korea). Each DLC should also provide new Han factions along side the other cultures. This way the DLC can appeal to multiple demographics and allow for more factions to have well fleshed out mechanics based on their play style like Cao Cao from game one.
6. Some in game campaign tutorials for new players along with a few recommended "easier factions" (But fun) mechanic wise for them to get accustomed to the game.




Please share your thoughts based on all this. I sincerely hope CA take all this feedback and analysis into consideration for their next game, while also conducting their own analysis to confirm statements made within this post with a more scientific approach.

shatti

from CA's clip "the future of three kingdoms".
the art and the drawings looked very colorful and animated.
also, they've stated that they are going to focus on the "romance" in the game.
so, i don't want anything from this game, specially with CAs low standard on quality control and patching.
romance and china players are the market target.
rip historical

Misaka_Complex

I would argue that the harshest critics of the game are the Chinese fans from #2 like myself and not the #3 category, who I tend to find as a lot more forgiving to the recent series of atrocities committed to the three kingdoms genre by CA.

toskyrun#2614

as we would like it to be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxJCPxmL7k&list=PLXGEHhEf6Ov0N0jEy2sFNeuKF3jG0c2LU&ab_channel=LordManuel333LordManuel333/

here's how it will be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGuzSbvoM44

TheTrue_LordAndy#1434

Misaka_Complex said:

I would argue that the harshest critics of the game are the Chinese fans from #2 like myself and not the #3 category, who I tend to find as a lot more forgiving to the recent series of atrocities committed to the three kingdoms genre by CA.

Sure Chinese fans can fall into number 3 though too.

TheTrue_LordAndy#1434

shatti said:

from CA's clip "the future of three kingdoms".
the art and the drawings looked very colorful and animated.
also, they've stated that they are going to focus on the "romance" in the game.
so, i don't want anything from this game, specially with CAs low standard on quality control and patching.
romance and china players are the market target.
rip historical

I am mad too about the abandonment of game 1, so I decided to list out all my expectations for a game two. If they are not met. I won't buy it.

TheTrue_LordAndy#1434

The above is an attempt to provide some constructive feedback for the player bases expectations for any game 2. There is no doubt most of us would expect A LOT to justify a second game.

The easiest way for CA to do it in my opinion if they want the game to have some semblance of success is to do what I mentioned above and to release the game with all the start dates. They can feel free to gather their own data and information to verify if my player base distinctions and what each want are valid or not.

E_L_2#7007

I agree with most everything posted here! I would especially like game 2 to have the relevant starting dates right off the bat. It would set the DLC up to be on a better trajectory from the available info, and players can customize their experience of how many additional cultures they want to see represented while not sacrificing the narrative, the importance of which must not be discounted.

talonn#7575

custom legendary characters with selection of unique arts and properties for us to choose

TheTrue_LordAndy#1434

talonn said:

custom legendary characters with selection of unique arts and properties for us to choose

Agreed a custom character creator would be a nice addition for sure!

united84#8186

1. Remove Wu Xing or at least revamp it.

-In game 1, I feel that the Wu Xing element is a total roadblock. First, it limits the skill tree to the respective classes as well as the color scheme. Like Strategist will be associated with blue. Let the player choose the destiny for their characters.

2. Skill tree

- Character skill tree in game 1 is terrible. If CA intends to focus on characters. They need a better skill tree. Shogun 2 is a good place to start. Even TWW character has better skill tree. 4 specializations; offense, defense, siege (range) & charisma (just a suggestion). Developer need to think of a way to avoid players only choosing one tree. WoW BC did a good job on the skill tree.

3. Generic characters

-Another party pooper in game 1. I understand not everyone will make it to the unique ladder but the generic characters look worst than their mid-tier units. Firstly, the grey items are trash...it needs more ornament. Second, the color is bound to Wu Xing which makes it even worse. CA needs to mix match the colors for the generic. Hence, why Wu Xing needs to go.

-Add more variety of generic armor or add more customizable slots like a plume slot. I imagine if we get more variety of plume for the helmet, the generics would look much better. In addition, customizable ornaments for the armor.

-Add more facial features & diversity for the generic characters.

Misaka_Complex

TheTrueLordAndy said:

Sure Chinese fans can fall into number 3 though too.

It can, but in my opinion even on the Chinese side the harshest critics of CA are from the #2 side.

TheTrue_LordAndy#1434

Misaka_Complex said:

TheTrueLordAndy said:

Sure Chinese fans can fall into number 3 though too.

It can, but in my opinion even on the Chinese side the harshest critics of CA are from the #2 side.

Ok, fair enough. You know the Chinese community better than I do.

Misaka_Complex

TheTrueLordAndy said:

Ok, fair enough. You know the Chinese community better than I do.

There is the #2 crowd who had little faith in CA from the start with very low expectations for CA like myself going like "yeah CA we're done with you." and the #3 crowd who is going like "how could you do this to us CA? We used to believe in you and has been playing your games since (insert TW game here)." I can say though, that nobody, even the most pessimistic of us saw it coming that they will suddenly announce to drop all DLC development and patch support one day shorty after a 50% sale and coming out with the messaging trying to spin this as if it's somehow positive news.

For example you did point out in the OP that Serious Trivia belongs in the #3 category, and his video on the entire situation isn't as nearly as harsh and unforgiving compared to the Chinese community on the Tieba side which he is not apart of.

MasterSlayeX

Yah the 50% sale was a scumbag move . They prob would of not gotten as many sales but they could of at least announced that before putting it on sale so they don’t rip people off with broken buggy messes

TheTrue_LordAndy#1434

Misaka_Complex said:

TheTrueLordAndy said:

Ok, fair enough. You know the Chinese community better than I do.

There is the #2 crowd who had little faith in CA from the start with very low expectations for CA like myself going like "yeah CA we're done with you." and the #3 crowd who is going like "how could you do this to us CA? We used to believe in you and has been playing your games since (insert TW game here)." I can say though, that nobody, even the most pessimistic of us saw it coming that they will suddenly announce to drop all DLC development and patch support one day shorty after a 50% sale and coming out with the messaging trying to spin this as if it's somehow positive news.

For example you did point out in the OP that Serious Trivia belongs in the #3 category, and his video on the entire situation isn't as nearly as harsh and unforgiving compared to the Chinese community on the Tieba side which he is not apart of.

I agree but keep in mind content creators might not publicly express all their true feelings because they have an interest to maintain good faith with CA, or at least they tend to try to present their discontent a little more politically so they are not blacklisted.

(I myself am probably blacklisted after some of the posts I made here on this forum bashing executive directives. Although I actively try to point the blame to the top and not any of the developers/ people that work on the games who have no say in these type of decisions, so who knows.).

I think you are right though that the Chinese community that are not total war fans would be expected to react more since 3K is near and dear to them. What you're saying makes sense, because it was probably the case that there weren't many Chinese total war fans before this game, because the old games like Medieval, rome , shogun etc didn't really gain traction there and weren't actively pushed to that market. Part of the reason why CA chose 3K as the setting to begin with, to access a new market. So ya the louder and more prevalent Chinese player base are likely from category #2.

TheTrue_LordAndy#1434

Misaka_Complex said:

TheTrueLordAndy said:

Ok, fair enough. You know the Chinese community better than I do.

There is the #2 crowd who had little faith in CA from the start with very low expectations for CA like myself going like "yeah CA we're done with you." and the #3 crowd who is going like "how could you do this to us CA? We used to believe in you and has been playing your games since (insert TW game here)." I can say though, that nobody, even the most pessimistic of us saw it coming that they will suddenly announce to drop all DLC development and patch support one day shorty after a 50% sale and coming out with the messaging trying to spin this as if it's somehow positive news.

For example you did point out in the OP that Serious Trivia belongs in the #3 category, and his video on the entire situation isn't as nearly as harsh and unforgiving compared to the Chinese community on the Tieba side which he is not apart of.

Also with my OP on group #3 what I was explaining was that group 3 wants both a good total war experience and the narrative aspects so they will criticize issues in any of these areas.

Not sure 100% but I don't think #2 are as concerned with tactical battle diversity like Troy, or siege battles feel like medieval 2 because they don't have experiences with these other games. So maybe they are the most harsh critics in terms of criticizing lack of characters, historical errors and lack of start dates leading up to Cao PI's usurpation and actual 3K. However they criticse less aspects of the actual gameplay mechanics than #3.

So in revision what I probably should say is that #2 can be the most harsh critics, but #3 have the most demands and items to criticize, since they have a preconceived notion of what a total war game should be like. For all I know half the people in #2 may be fine playing a dynasty warriors game if it covered the whole narrative and is enjoyable, while #3 would definitely not want a dynasty warriors type game.

TheTrue_LordAndy#1434

united84 said:

1. Remove Wu Xing or at least revamp it.

-In game 1, I feel that the Wu Xing element is a total roadblock. First, it limits the skill tree to the respective classes as well as the color scheme. Like Strategist will be associated with blue. Let the player choose the destiny for their characters.

Ok so with regards to this suggestion I have one problem, and that is that certain characters should not be good fighters. Most of the in game strategists and some Commanders where not people who fought on the battlefield. It would be quite un-immersive for 3K fans to have Xun Yu or Guo Jia fighting Lu Bu or Zhao Zilong style. There should be some distinction at least for fighting characters vs non- effective fighting characters at minimum.

Misaka_Complex

TheTrueLordAndy said:

Not sure 100% but I don't think #2 are as concerned with tactical battle diversity like Troy, or siege battles feel like medieval 2 because they don't have experiences with these other games. So maybe they are the most harsh critics in terms of criticizing lack of characters, historical errors and lack of start dates leading up to Cao PI's usurpation and actual 3K. However they criticse less aspects of the actual gameplay mechanics than #3.

When you bring up battle diversity or bring up other titles like Troy or Medieval 2, remember that none of this matters to #2 because we have never played Troy or Medieval 2 and couldn't care less about those titles. There has been some praises about CA"s battle system as the ROTK series just has a terrible one but the criticism regarding the historical inaccuracies, lack of narrative events and the lack of character art overshadows the positives from the battle aspect.

TheTrueLordAndy said:

For all I know half the people in #2 may be fine playing a dynasty warriors game if it covered the whole narrative and is enjoyable, while #3 would definitely not want a dynasty warriors type game.

I can't speak for #3 but I can say that you are partially correct about this regarding #2. If they just make a "dynasty warriors mode" like what they call this "dynasty mode" for 3k it is a clear no as it was poorly received globally if I'm not mistaken, but if they made generals that are as powerful as dynasty mode and put it in the main campaign along with the other campaign features like base building and diplomacy yes I would agree that this would be popular amongst #2.

TheTrueLordAndy said:

(I myself am probably blacklisted after some of the posts I made here on this forum bashing executive directives. Although I actively try to point the blame to the top and not any of the developers/ people that work on the games who have no say in these type of decisions, so who knows.).

If you are truly blacklisted, then I'm not sure how many times I have been blacklisted by CA lol. Just because I follow their rules and keep my posts within the boundaries of the rules doesn't mean that they like me. I'm probably the most disliked user among CA"s internal staff when it comes to the official forums and I proudly embrace and accept that.

Vin362#6699

While I am a fan of Three Kingdoms setting I am willing to sacrifice some narrative if the games mechanics or faction mechanics worked as intended minor things like glitched textures I could live with, but they marketed this as a character driven game this raised my expectations a bit as I thought dilemmas would play a larger role.

Add to this is also the fact that the game had an issue with several recurring bugs and a new bug that renders Shi Xie's unable to trade with vassals he makes, there probably even more bugs I still haven't found yet so the game's mechanics had trouble working.

Bubax

shatti said:

from CA's clip "the future of three kingdoms".
the art and the drawings looked very colorful and animated.
also, they've stated that they are going to focus on the "romance" in the game.
so, i don't want anything from this game, specially with CAs low standard on quality control and patching.
romance and china players are the market target.
rip historical

You can play it if you want, but I'd rather be kicked in the jewels than buy a game filled with digital assets I already purchased from a prior title. I love video gaming, but I'm not an addict--and I do not like lighting money on fire and/or giving it to liars who don't keep their promises.