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Rahagra's Pride should be Anti-Large

RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 408
edited June 2021 in Balancing Discussions
In the same vein as Beasts of Tashnar.

- gives them a unique role as a RoR
- thematic as in: "the biggest and baddest" lions hunt the bigger prey
- synergizes with the playstyle where they are used to block and surround SE's given that they are a fast unit with decent mass
- synergizes with their active ability that reduces the speed of enemy units making the above use case even better
- makes them a "good on paper" anti-skirmish unit with missile ressist, slow and anti-large

Last part is debatable because of how skirmish mode works - 8 spd difference is enough to kite a chasing unit into oblivion, so the HE player has to catch the units with proper positioning or some helping like Shadow magic.
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Comments

  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 1,231
    Rahagra's Pride are a great ROR, that slow + leadership buff is huge for them.

    War Lions aren't an anti-skirmish unit, the units for that in the roster are Reavers (both), their back line, and shadow Warriors.

    War Lions are best used as anti-cav heavy cav in combo with reavers/silver helms (great ap values and fast for positioning) , with a dual role of rear-charging infantry or backlines with fear.

    Imrik with his horn, 4 silver helms, 4 war lions, is pretty rough for lots of factions to deal with. Thrown rahagra's and a death caster with aspect and Doom and darkness and it is pretty tough for other factions to win the mobility fight.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 8,401
    Rahagra's Pride is already a really good RoR
  • Baron_RobbaneBaron_Robbane Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 496

    Rahagra's Pride are a great ROR, that slow + leadership buff is huge for them.

    War Lions aren't an anti-skirmish unit, the units for that in the roster are Reavers (both), their back line, and shadow Warriors.

    War Lions are best used as anti-cav heavy cav in combo with reavers/silver helms (great ap values and fast for positioning) , with a dual role of rear-charging infantry or backlines with fear.

    Imrik with his horn, 4 silver helms, 4 war lions, is pretty rough for lots of factions to deal with. Thrown rahagra's and a death caster with aspect and Doom and darkness and it is pretty tough for other factions to win the mobility fight.

    So 3600 and 3400 makes 7 k lord makes 9k caster makes 9.8 k ? Whats left 4 spearmen ? Its a bad train of thought ofcourse if i over invest i will win a flank fight. The idea op has makes sense currently any big entity just wades through your frontline and no anti large highelves unit can keep up and punish this. Except the fire born but the fire born once you buy Them you cant have them as a defensive reserve because they cost 15 procent of your budget. Highelves need a so called backline protecter. Thats affordable and currently silver helms do everything better so lions are roster bloat.
    The rework to anti large unit would make them a unit with purpose.
    Team Wood Elves
  • caladbolgftwcaladbolgftw Registered Users Posts: 403
    white lion of chrace should get anti-large as well, acting like the slayers of the high elves, fending off enemy calvavries, monsters that break though the line with anti-large and high movement speed. a jack of all trade compare to sword masters of Hoeth and phoenix guards, slightly good against both monster and infantry while not being the master of them both.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,569

    white lion of chrace should get anti-large as well, acting like the slayers of the high elves, fending off enemy calvavries, monsters that break though the line with anti-large and high movement speed. a jack of all trade compare to sword masters of Hoeth and phoenix guards, slightly good against both monster and infantry while not being the master of them both.

    Isn't that what they are now without a BvL? Giving them BvL does not make them a jack of all trades, it makes them an anti-large specialist
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  • caladbolgftwcaladbolgftw Registered Users Posts: 403
    edited June 2021
    User_Clue said:

    white lion of chrace should get anti-large as well, acting like the slayers of the high elves, fending off enemy calvavries, monsters that break though the line with anti-large and high movement speed. a jack of all trade compare to sword masters of Hoeth and phoenix guards, slightly good against both monster and infantry while not being the master of them both.

    Isn't that what they are now without a BvL? Giving them BvL does not make them a jack of all trades, it makes them an anti-large specialist
    I not saying white lion of chrace should be an anti-large specialist. But you know how anti-large bonus has actual rating in numbers? Phoenix Guard has 20, slayer has 24, and high elf spearman has 15. White lion should just get just 10 (or give high elf spearman 10 and white lion 15 because being a spear user does not make them monster killing specialist), especially when combining with their ap? not too much and it helps the players to choose them for mix purpose, without costing too much by picking swordmaster of hoeth and Phoenix Guard (who seriously needs a buff).
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,601

    User_Clue said:

    white lion of chrace should get anti-large as well, acting like the slayers of the high elves, fending off enemy calvavries, monsters that break though the line with anti-large and high movement speed. a jack of all trade compare to sword masters of Hoeth and phoenix guards, slightly good against both monster and infantry while not being the master of them both.

    Isn't that what they are now without a BvL? Giving them BvL does not make them a jack of all trades, it makes them an anti-large specialist
    I not saying white lion of chrace should be an anti-large specialist. But you know how anti-large bonus has actual rating in numbers? Phoenix Guard has 20, slayer has 24, and high elf spearman has 15. White lion should just get just 10 (or give high elf spearman 10 and white lion 15 because being a spear user does not make them monster killing specialist), especially when combining with their ap? not too much and it helps the players to choose them for mix purpose, without costing too much by picking swordmaster of hoeth and Phoenix Guard (who seriously needs a buff).
    Disagree. The HE roster is full of anti large infantry. They don't need an extra one.


    They are a fairly adequate infantry unit that is useful in several MUs.

    I would say that war lions do need something. You can't be antiinfantry and have few models per unit. It simply does not work.
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 626
    edited June 2021
    Pocman said:

    User_Clue said:

    white lion of chrace should get anti-large as well, acting like the slayers of the high elves, fending off enemy calvavries, monsters that break though the line with anti-large and high movement speed. a jack of all trade compare to sword masters of Hoeth and phoenix guards, slightly good against both monster and infantry while not being the master of them both.

    Isn't that what they are now without a BvL? Giving them BvL does not make them a jack of all trades, it makes them an anti-large specialist
    I not saying white lion of chrace should be an anti-large specialist. But you know how anti-large bonus has actual rating in numbers? Phoenix Guard has 20, slayer has 24, and high elf spearman has 15. White lion should just get just 10 (or give high elf spearman 10 and white lion 15 because being a spear user does not make them monster killing specialist), especially when combining with their ap? not too much and it helps the players to choose them for mix purpose, without costing too much by picking swordmaster of hoeth and Phoenix Guard (who seriously needs a buff).
    Disagree. The HE roster is full of anti large infantry. They don't need an extra one.


    They are a fairly adequate infantry unit that is useful in several MUs.

    I would say that war lions do need something. You can't be antiinfantry and have few models per unit. It simply does not work.
    Full of anti large infantry and which of them have a pretty decent AP ratio?
    It's almost like there is an anti large unit in the price range of White Lion with subpar AP ratio.
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  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,423
    I think warlions could use -25g or some more missile resistance, having such low armour is rough. Plus its weird they have less missile resist than white lion infantry.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,579
    Warlions ld is a bit low

    feral coldones, razorgors r both 55 ld, so are warlions at 55 ld.

    +5 to +8 ld would make them extremely good
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  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,577
    I would like to see higher charge bonus on Silverin (say 10).

    A higher missile resistance on War Lions would certainly make a certain kind of sense. Not sure why a dead pelt on White lion has more missile resistance than a living War Lion.

    Spearmen should be cheaper and less mass heavy.

    I would also like Martial Prowess to be a more MA focused buff than a MD focused buff, so you lose MA at 50% not defenses.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,423
    Bastilean said:

    I would like to see higher charge bonus on Silverin (say 10).

    A higher missile resistance on War Lions would certainly make a certain kind of sense. Not sure why a dead pelt on White lion has more missile resistance than a living War Lion.

    Spearmen should be cheaper and less mass heavy.

    I would also like Martial Prowess to be a more MA focused buff than a MD focused buff, so you lose MA at 50% not defenses.

    silverins should have always been 75 model unit, with same armour and HP as white lions, then there would have been no need for its double nerf.
    yst said:

    Warlions ld is a bit low

    feral coldones, razorgors r both 55 ld, so are warlions at 55 ld.

    +5 to +8 ld would make them extremely good

    yeah could be nice too
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,577
    edited June 2021
    Regardless, even if we had the original stats with 75 models with bonus health and armor, I would still want more than 4 CB on a 800g unit of exalted spearmen. It's extraordinarily low for a unit of this value.

    Similar to CA's CB improvement to the Dawi. It improves strategic depth. Otherwise, I can just leave my flank open to them and grin, because lolz CB 4.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,423
    Bastilean said:

    Regardless, even if we had the original stats with 75 models with bonus health and armor, I would still want more than 4 CB on a 800g unit of exalted spearmen. It's extraordinarily low for a unit of this value.

    Similar to CA's CB improvement to the Dawi. It improves strategic depth. Otherwise, I can just leave my flank open to them and grin, because lolz CB 4.

    yeah the whole idea that spear = low charge is not very realistic.
  • caladbolgftwcaladbolgftw Registered Users Posts: 403
    Pocman said:

    User_Clue said:

    white lion of chrace should get anti-large as well, acting like the slayers of the high elves, fending off enemy calvavries, monsters that break though the line with anti-large and high movement speed. a jack of all trade compare to sword masters of Hoeth and phoenix guards, slightly good against both monster and infantry while not being the master of them both.

    Isn't that what they are now without a BvL? Giving them BvL does not make them a jack of all trades, it makes them an anti-large specialist
    I not saying white lion of chrace should be an anti-large specialist. But you know how anti-large bonus has actual rating in numbers? Phoenix Guard has 20, slayer has 24, and high elf spearman has 15. White lion should just get just 10 (or give high elf spearman 10 and white lion 15 because being a spear user does not make them monster killing specialist), especially when combining with their ap? not too much and it helps the players to choose them for mix purpose, without costing too much by picking swordmaster of hoeth and Phoenix Guard (who seriously needs a buff).
    Disagree. The HE roster is full of anti large infantry. They don't need an extra one.


    They are a fairly adequate infantry unit that is useful in several MUs.

    I would say that war lions do need something. You can't be antiinfantry and have few models per unit. It simply does not work.
    The theme about high elf infantry is that they are flexible and well trained to face many situations. You see many units in high elf roster with spear is because they were trained to hold out on their own against enemy Calvary charge. Lothern Sea Guards is a well known example, sea guards who can shoot with their bow and counter calvary with spear and block missiles with their shield.

    Compare to the Dark Elves infantries who are specialized in dealing damages, High Elves infantries are specialized in being defensive and flexible. Of course, being specialized in defensive making them a poor damage dealer since high elf roster have little to no cheap ap damage units. Although their spear users could do well against non-armored monsters like trolls and most calvary, they are unable to do the same to heavily armored Stegdon, bastilladon and single entity monsters with high health. There options to counter these enemies, but they are either too expensive (phoenix guard, once again is both under-powered and expensive. Dragons) or not dealing enough damage (eagle claw bolt thrower is accurate and long range enough to do artillery sniping, but their anti-large shots is not damaging enough to quickly bought down aforementioned armored monsters. There are matches that shows it works well when combine with plague of rust, but is still not reliable enough)

    This is why I have suggested to give minor anti-large bonus to White Lion of Chrace (Elves with giant axe in their hand mind you, not the war lions). The White lions are cheap, fast for an armored infantry and has decent ap value. If combining with their speed, toughness and a tiny bit of anti-large, they could find themselves a new role in the roster as a backline supporter, assisting other units being flanked by fast units like hounds, calvaries, harpies and etc. For lore accuracy, White Lions were bodyguards of phoenix king and they have to kill a white lion for their traditional rite. Being able to kill a beast and being a protector is worthy enough to give them a default anti-large buff in their stats.
  • Baron_RobbaneBaron_Robbane Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 496
    Loupi_ said:

    Bastilean said:

    Regardless, even if we had the original stats with 75 models with bonus health and armor, I would still want more than 4 CB on a 800g unit of exalted spearmen. It's extraordinarily low for a unit of this value.

    Similar to CA's CB improvement to the Dawi. It improves strategic depth. Otherwise, I can just leave my flank open to them and grin, because lolz CB 4.

    yeah the whole idea that spear = low charge is not very realistic.
    To be fair charging in with a spear and shield isnt beneficial as spear should outrange melee weapons . But if you close the distance as the spearman its a bad idea. I always hoped that defensive type units got their own anti charge stat.
    Team Wood Elves
  • caladbolgftwcaladbolgftw Registered Users Posts: 403
    edited June 2021
    Loupi_ said:

    Bastilean said:

    Regardless, even if we had the original stats with 75 models with bonus health and armor, I would still want more than 4 CB on a 800g unit of exalted spearmen. It's extraordinarily low for a unit of this value.

    Similar to CA's CB improvement to the Dawi. It improves strategic depth. Otherwise, I can just leave my flank open to them and grin, because lolz CB 4.

    yeah the whole idea that spear = low charge is not very realistic.
    I don't know. Can a person charge well if they were wearing armor, has shield in one hand and a spear in another? I do know they wouldn't be very fast even during acceleration, and spear only has the strength of one hand to make any impact thrust against the enemy.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,577



    Loupi_ said:

    Bastilean said:

    Regardless, even if we had the original stats with 75 models with bonus health and armor, I would still want more than 4 CB on a 800g unit of exalted spearmen. It's extraordinarily low for a unit of this value.

    Similar to CA's CB improvement to the Dawi. It improves strategic depth. Otherwise, I can just leave my flank open to them and grin, because lolz CB 4.

    yeah the whole idea that spear = low charge is not very realistic.
    To be fair charging in with a spear and shield isnt beneficial as spear should outrange melee weapons . But if you close the distance as the spearman its a bad idea. I always hoped that defensive type units got their own anti charge stat.
    Working that angle. I am going to make a new thread soon.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,182
    The warlion needs a bit more LD and price buff and they are alright.
  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 408
    Loupi_ said:

    Bastilean said:

    I would like to see higher charge bonus on Silverin (say 10).

    A higher missile resistance on War Lions would certainly make a certain kind of sense. Not sure why a dead pelt on White lion has more missile resistance than a living War Lion.

    Spearmen should be cheaper and less mass heavy.

    I would also like Martial Prowess to be a more MA focused buff than a MD focused buff, so you lose MA at 50% not defenses.

    silverins should have always been 75 model unit, with same armour and HP as white lions, then there would have been no need for its double nerf.
    yst said:

    Warlions ld is a bit low

    feral coldones, razorgors r both 55 ld, so are warlions at 55 ld.

    +5 to +8 ld would make them extremely good

    yeah could be nice too
    Is there a way to get the original stats?
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,423

    Loupi_ said:

    Bastilean said:

    I would like to see higher charge bonus on Silverin (say 10).

    A higher missile resistance on War Lions would certainly make a certain kind of sense. Not sure why a dead pelt on White lion has more missile resistance than a living War Lion.

    Spearmen should be cheaper and less mass heavy.

    I would also like Martial Prowess to be a more MA focused buff than a MD focused buff, so you lose MA at 50% not defenses.

    silverins should have always been 75 model unit, with same armour and HP as white lions, then there would have been no need for its double nerf.
    yst said:

    Warlions ld is a bit low

    feral coldones, razorgors r both 55 ld, so are warlions at 55 ld.

    +5 to +8 ld would make them extremely good

    yeah could be nice too
    Is there a way to get the original stats?
    you could look through the patchnotes or look at past version of twwstats maybe
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