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  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,539
    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
  • mecanojavi99mecanojavi99 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 8,199
    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    I'm still waiting for someone to explain what that is matter that something wasn't possible in the Lore, for it to be possible in a videogame.

    Is it Lorefull for Noctilus to be alive after being supposedly being perma killed?

    Is it Lorefull for Aranessa to use Vampires and Undead?

    Is it Lorefull for Tretch to be able to go and kill Mazdamundi?

    And the list goes for a loong time, this a Sandbox, not TT simulator.
    "By the fires of Hashut, let them burn in the flames of eternal torment!"
    - Anonymous
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,247
    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Yes, as it says in the lore with various examples. Why do you accept only part of the lore up to 8th edition? Talk about cherry picking.
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Registered Users Posts: 9,441
    Nyxilis said:

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
    It is the point.

    Is this invasion of the Realm of Chaos in the army book? I'll look it up after work.
    Glory matters not.

  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 7,880

    I really don't like the look of survival battles with magic towers and barricades.

    If I have to do the same 4 survival battles every campaign it's going to get older than Bloodpine Wood.

    Here's hoping they thought of that.

    It'll only be in the narrative campaign, just as the HEs and such do not have to do the Vortex campaign stuff in ME. So if you don't like Survival battles you will only have to do them in campaigns in the first month or so until ME2 comes out.
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Registered Users Posts: 9,441
    Nyxilis said:

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
    It is the point.

    Is this invasion of the Realm of Chaos in the army book? I'll look it up after work.

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Yes, as it says in the lore with various examples. Why do you accept only part of the lore up to 8th edition? Talk about cherry picking.
    Examples?
    Glory matters not.

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,870
    edited June 2021

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Yes, as it says in the lore with various examples. Why do you accept only part of the lore up to 8th edition? Talk about cherry picking.
    Where? I don't recall any mention of any force achieving anything of note there. The most anyone did was get out of there as quickly as possible because fighting there is insanity.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,870
    edited June 2021
    Nyxilis said:

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
    One black ark got sucked in there by mistake and barely made it out of there alive. Their reward? An incursion of disease from the Grandfather's garden followed them and infected an entire city.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Registered Users Posts: 9,441
    If it's lore accurate I look forward to the quick half dozen examples where this took place.
    Glory matters not.

  • Fan3982173917524862Fan3982173917524862 Registered Users Posts: 1,581
    That's a whole lot of things said in the blog. Due to CA saying a lot of things and some ending up being not true recently, like the rosters, R:R modability and 3K plans, I'm not inclined to believe every single thing they say, until I see it with my own eyes when WH3 releases.
    There's still no mention of encampment battles and deployables being a thing only for the hamfisted Tower Defense mode, which is probably the main gimmick they're going for to differentiate WH3 from 2 and justify a full price. So the comment about there being the more battle types than any other previous TW game is questionable.
    I don't expect a huge leap forward with 3 in terms of Qol and battle improvements. I expected and asked for multi way battles like a FFA in campaign during WH2 and realized these will never be a thing.
    I personally disliked 3K's escape zone ambush battles, it made them really easy since the AI cannot properly deploy to stop you from just sacrificing some units to hold theirs back while yours escape. Same goes for offensive ones, you can deploy on the escape zone and stop the AI from even attempting to do that. Any unit that reaches the escape zone and presses the button to withdraw is from then on immune and not targetable even though the zone is nowhere near the edge of the map and they will ran across the map with immunity.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,539
    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
    One black ark got sucked in there by mistake and barely made it out of there alive. Their reward? An incursion of disease from the Grandfather's garden followed them and infected an entire city.
    Nobody is saying without attrition or damage. I've said that to if you're read anything. But you just said it survived and that was an accidental drop there.

    On top of Morathi's multiple expeditions. On top of other DE visits.Where they have succeeded in gaining what she desires. Why she keeps sending more.

    Why I said for armies that don't care about their troops.

    Whatever plot macguffin takes them there one can go. One can survive. One can steal. No one is saying unscathed. Attrition is high. But you can go, and survive, and succeed.
  • KronusXKronusX Registered Users Posts: 2,464
    I am confused. People are arguing lore right now, despite how many lore breaking things happen in game? Is that a joke or an actual thing?

    I took the sword of Khaine as Wood Elves, is there a lore for that?

    Lore purists, the bane of Warhammer total war.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,247
    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    Let’s be clear here, this argument makes it suggest that the RoC is an unplayable place where you cannot exist, almost intangible, where it is impossible to step in to the warp and survive. With examples like Oxyotl who fought a war with the Daemons while never being caught.

    So to be clear the argument that it’s impossible to survive and attack Daemons in the RoC is quite simply wrong.

    The DE example is further evidence that the RoC in this example is ‘very dangerous’ especially going to Nurgle’s garden, a disease is expected. What if they hadn’t of specifically gone to his garden? What then? Rewards and no disease? Possibly, which is all CA/GW need.

    Now, let’s say CA create a narrative were instead of an accidental or forced incursions the player plans to enter for a specific time and reason like the DE. It’s then up to the player on the success.

    Unlikely success isn’t good enough to bar it.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,870
    edited June 2021
    Nyxilis said:

    Nobody is saying without attrition or damage. I've said that to if you're read anything. But you just said it survived and that was an accidental drop there.

    On top of Morathi's multiple expeditions. On top of other DE visits.Where they have succeeded in gaining what she desires. Why she keeps sending more.

    Why I said for armies that don't care about their troops

    Whatever plot macguffin takes them there one can go. One can survive. One can steal. No one is saying unscathed. Attrition is high. But you can go, and survive, and succeed. .

    Survive at most. And I actually checked, the disease plagued the entirety of Naggaroth, not just one city.

    She didn't? If you're referring to the time when Malekith was lost, they scoured the Chaos Wastes at most, not the Realm of Chaos.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 5,634
    -CA releases blog all about new and exciting battle types.
    -I read it.
    -Complete and utter lack of the most innovative and game changing battle type CA ever produced.
    -*Sad sailor noises*
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed, Shadow King
    Me when I see a LL character implemented as a LH.

    Warhammer Deserves Naval Battles

  • MaelasMaelas Registered Users Posts: 5,180
    Nyxilis said:

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
    Dark Elves, the biggest madmen and madwomen in Warhammer, expert in dark arts, thousand of years old each, entered the Chaos Realms in a litteral giant floating fortress, and they barely managed to escape, bringing back a disease that killed ten of thousands.

    If one of the most chaos-adjacent race paid such a steep price for a little incursion, a full-on invasion by weak humans should bring back empire-ruining consequences !
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,462

    "We’ll be back soon enough with details on siege improvements and Minor Settlement Battles"



    Enough with the use of the word soon, please just stop

    TBF... this was soon after their last entry.

    Got to give credit where credit is due.

    But yes. They are trolling us.

    We troll them.

    It's only fair.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,437
    edited June 2021
    Seems a case of "my fav location is not match for.. " we get it the non chaotic races just don't go into the realm nor really attempt to.

    But there are quite a select non chaos locations that in the lore are a folly to even attack. Yet you can. And the game kinda conveys it's obnoxious, but not impossible. Athel loren is the prime example or the current wastes. I completed the errantry war going by foot to the battle location. The last steps were excrutiatingly slow. you can't go far and if you don't encamp you lose half your army in one turn.

    There are things that should be done, even if difficult for the sake of playinjg. Going with a half permeable barrier where one faction can go but the others can would be a terrible design choice. Making it so that it's possible but obnoxious is better in my opinion.

    That said we don't know at all if armies can really get into the realms or just to that one time challenge toward a god, which is quite different.
  • karge068karge068 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,424

    Surge_2 said:

    Full map better be in immediately. I refuse to play any scenario where the realm of chaos is invaded by pathetic mortals.

    You know that the Realm of Chaos will be part of the Mortal Empires rigth? That means the Dwarfs and the Empire going to say hello to Khorne in the Bass Citadel.

    And we already know from a long time ago, that the Mortal Empires won't be at launch, but as FLC after launch, like in Game 2.
    How do you know it will be?

    Realm of Chaos might just be a feature on the new campaign map and not in the new ME map
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,870
    edited June 2021

    Let’s be clear here, this argument makes it suggest that the RoC is an unplayable place where you cannot exist, almost intangible, where it is impossible to step in to the warp and survive. With examples like Oxyotl who fought a war with the Daemons while never being caught.

    So to be clear the argument that it’s impossible to survive and attack Daemons in the RoC is quite simply wrong.

    The argument is that it's impossible to go into the realm, get to the capital location of a god, beat that god's armies in that area, evade that god's attentions while right at his gates, your army not being completely obliterated the moment the god realizes you're there and manage to get out without nation ruining consequences.

    Malekith and Oxyotl were trying to get out of there, not visit a Chaos god where he is at his strongest.

    The DE example is further evidence that the RoC in this example is ‘very dangerous’ especially going to Nurgle’s garden, a disease is expected. What if they hadn’t of specifically gone to his garden? What then? Rewards and no disease? Possibly, which is all CA/GW need.

    Sorry to inform you but going to Nurgle's garden is exactly what they're proposing. It's actully worse because you're supposed to be invading the Mansion, the place that Nurgle resides in.

    That's not to say anywhere else is any better. Khorne's personal domain is marked by endless war and anyone caught in it is taken by an insurmountable rage. Tzeentch's realm is wraught by a form of unrestricted magical potential, meaning that mutation is effectively unavoidable(hope you don't mind having a second and very evil head). Slaanesh's realm is wrought with temptations that would take a person's attention in a way that they physically couldn't remove themselves from there(and that's just some random location within his/hers realm, not the main palace).

    Now, let’s say CA create a narrative were instead of an accidental or forced incursions the player plans to enter for a specific time and reason like the DE. It’s then up to the player on the success.

    Unlikely success isn’t good enough to bar it.

    Impossible success more like it. This isn't some random appearance in some random location in the Chaos Realms, or a lone wanderer who will be heavily scarred by the experience like Malekith. This is literally invading a god's personal domain and killing his forces right in front of him, and somehow winning.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,539
    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nobody is saying without attrition or damage. I've said that to if you're read anything. But you just said it survived and that was an accidental drop there.

    On top of Morathi's multiple expeditions. On top of other DE visits.Where they have succeeded in gaining what she desires. Why she keeps sending more.

    Why I said for armies that don't care about their troops

    Whatever plot macguffin takes them there one can go. One can survive. One can steal. No one is saying unscathed. Attrition is high. But you can go, and survive, and succeed. .

    Survive at most. And I actually checked, the disease plagued the entirety of Naggaroth, not just one city.

    She didn't? If you're referring to the time when Malekith was lost, they scoured the Chaos Wastes at most, not the Realm of Chaos.
    She did, she sent multiple. She didn't go herself, she considered herself to valuable but she kept sending them. And you want to argue this when you don't even know that?

    And yeah, it did. Guess what, Nurgle also did that multiple times without a visit, so did the Skaven with a lesser god of the rats. That's nothing unique to the realm. Big deal.
    Maelas said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
    Dark Elves, the biggest madmen and madwomen in Warhammer, expert in dark arts, thousand of years old each, entered the Chaos Realms in a litteral giant floating fortress, and they barely managed to escape, bringing back a disease that killed ten of thousands.

    If one of the most chaos-adjacent race paid such a steep price for a little incursion, a full-on invasion by weak humans should bring back empire-ruining consequences !
    Nobody is saying uscathed, CA didn't say unscathed but you blokes asking like its impossible are simply wrong.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,539
    Also, Crossil, why on earth would Khorne who demands his followers take care of themselves would dare stop bloodshed?

    Before the eyes of Khorne... that would be pathetic.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,870
    edited June 2021
    Nyxilis said:

    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nobody is saying without attrition or damage. I've said that to if you're read anything. But you just said it survived and that was an accidental drop there.

    On top of Morathi's multiple expeditions. On top of other DE visits.Where they have succeeded in gaining what she desires. Why she keeps sending more.

    Why I said for armies that don't care about their troops

    Whatever plot macguffin takes them there one can go. One can survive. One can steal. No one is saying unscathed. Attrition is high. But you can go, and survive, and succeed. .

    Survive at most. And I actually checked, the disease plagued the entirety of Naggaroth, not just one city.

    She didn't? If you're referring to the time when Malekith was lost, they scoured the Chaos Wastes at most, not the Realm of Chaos.
    She did, she sent multiple. She didn't go herself, she considered herself to valuable but she kept sending them. And you want to argue this when you don't even know that?

    And yeah, it did. Guess what, Nurgle also did that multiple times without a visit, so did the Skaven with a lesser god of the rats. That's nothing unique to the realm. Big deal.
    Maelas said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
    Dark Elves, the biggest madmen and madwomen in Warhammer, expert in dark arts, thousand of years old each, entered the Chaos Realms in a litteral giant floating fortress, and they barely managed to escape, bringing back a disease that killed ten of thousands.

    If one of the most chaos-adjacent race paid such a steep price for a little incursion, a full-on invasion by weak humans should bring back empire-ruining consequences !
    Nobody is saying uscathed, CA didn't say unscathed but you blokes asking like its impossible are simply wrong.
    I actually had to look through two armybooks to find what you say, and honestly, I'm not entirely impressed. The 8th ed armybook literally dropped that note.

    And the 7th edition armybook doesn't actually say they were successful. It only says few returned at all. And it only mentions these before she founded Ghrond, after that there is no mention of any such expeditions. So I presume they turned out complete failures.

    And, do note, this is the only time anyone tried to go to the Realm of Chaos. And it was the founder of Dark Magic of all people. The only other example I recall is that of a god, Grimnir. I don't know when we last heard of him.

    Ok, let's do the argument again:

    "The argument is that it's impossible to go into the realm, get to the capital location of a god, beat that god's armies in that area, evade that god's attentions while right at his gates, your army not being completely obliterated the moment the god realizes you're there and manage to get out without nation ruining consequences."
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,539
    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nobody is saying without attrition or damage. I've said that to if you're read anything. But you just said it survived and that was an accidental drop there.

    On top of Morathi's multiple expeditions. On top of other DE visits.Where they have succeeded in gaining what she desires. Why she keeps sending more.

    Why I said for armies that don't care about their troops

    Whatever plot macguffin takes them there one can go. One can survive. One can steal. No one is saying unscathed. Attrition is high. But you can go, and survive, and succeed. .

    Survive at most. And I actually checked, the disease plagued the entirety of Naggaroth, not just one city.

    She didn't? If you're referring to the time when Malekith was lost, they scoured the Chaos Wastes at most, not the Realm of Chaos.
    She did, she sent multiple. She didn't go herself, she considered herself to valuable but she kept sending them. And you want to argue this when you don't even know that?

    And yeah, it did. Guess what, Nurgle also did that multiple times without a visit, so did the Skaven with a lesser god of the rats. That's nothing unique to the realm. Big deal.
    Maelas said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
    Dark Elves, the biggest madmen and madwomen in Warhammer, expert in dark arts, thousand of years old each, entered the Chaos Realms in a litteral giant floating fortress, and they barely managed to escape, bringing back a disease that killed ten of thousands.

    If one of the most chaos-adjacent race paid such a steep price for a little incursion, a full-on invasion by weak humans should bring back empire-ruining consequences !
    Nobody is saying uscathed, CA didn't say unscathed but you blokes asking like its impossible are simply wrong.
    I actually had to look through two armybooks to find what you say, and honestly, I'm not entirely impressed. The 8th ed armybook literally dropped that note.

    And the 7th edition armybook doesn't actually say they were successful. It only says few returned at all. And it only mentions these before she founded Ghrond, after that there is no mention of any such expeditions. So I presume they turned out complete failures.

    Ok, let's do the argument again:

    "The argument is that it's impossible to go into the realm, get to the capital location of a god, beat that god's armies in that area, evade that god's attentions while right at his gates, your army not being completely obliterated the moment the god realizes you're there and manage to get out without nation ruining consequences."
    Crossil, this unit comes from 6th edition. Also Crossil, this is not from 8th edition doesn't count! Whatever.

    She sent, it's mentioned they returned. Immediately flies in the face of anyone that says it's not possible. Despite it not only being done, but then done again.

    Once more, the chaos gods do not snap fingers and obliterate. This is assigning to them things they never did. That's your own 'but muh gods'. They don't just snap fingers and delete. That's something you certainly can't cite.

    And you're also implying Khorne would ever do that. That's entirely 100% out of his character. You're violating lore by just implying he would snap his fingers instead of demanding his followers have a good fight. It's like saying Greenskins would push the i win button instead of simplying getting into a good scrap. So no your army would not be obliterated at all. That's not what any of the gods do. Least of all god of war and violence Khorne.

    And nation ending ruining consequences? If you visit Nurgles garden maybe. That's how it works for Khorne? Once more this is being very argued by people who seemed to want to assassinate the character of the gods and have them things they do not do. Just because it steps on the toes of the vaunted power trip fantasy.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,247
    The argument is that it's impossible to go into the realm, get to the capital location of a god, beat that god's armies in that area, evade that god's attentions while right at his gates, your army not being completely obliterated the moment the god realizes you're there and manage to get out without nation ruining consequences.

    Malekith and Oxyotl were trying to get out of there, not visit a Chaos god where he is at his strongest.


    So now we have a new argument. So we accept it is not impossible to enter Chaos and survive? Even if you are dropped in by accident. Now, if you plan to go in with the help of particular knowledge, magic ability or an artifact your chances may well be better.

    Again, you're basing your new rules on the fact that it has not happened before, not some objective truth. You are also so against it you are not even waiting for the updated lore by GW (the people who write the lore) which tells me there's a level of bias.

    Yes, the DE and Oxyotl were sent into the RoC without a plan or prep yet managed to kill daemons and escape. What about if you know why you're going, when you're going and how to survive?

    Sorry to inform you but going to Nurgle's garden is exactly what they're proposing. It's actully worse because you're supposed to be invading the Mansion, the place that Nurgle resides in.

    Why would I be disappointed? How does that change what I said? The chances of catching a disease in Nurgles garden is high I assume, but so what? A high chance of failure does not stop you from entering a certain location in a game that is there to specifically give the player freedom and do the most extreme of narratives.

    That's not to say anywhere else is any better. Khorne's personal domain is marked by endless war and anyone caught in it is taken by an insurmountable rage. Tzeentch's realm is wraught by a form of unrestricted magical potential, meaning that mutation is effectively unavoidable(hope you don't mind having a second and very evil head). Slaanesh's realm is wrought with temptations that would take a person's attention in a way that they physically couldn't remove themselves from there(and that's just some random location within his/hers realm, not the main palace).

    Same issue. Khorne's very dangerous just like the other gods, yeah we know, but without knowledge of the lore connected to this narrative you cannot objectively say it is impossible or how likely it is. You are also forgetting that all of these things could have happened to any other survivor from RoC.. but here's the thing - it didn't.

    Impossible success more like it. This isn't some random appearance in some random location in the Chaos Realms, or a lone wanderer who will be heavily scarred by the experience like Malekith. This is literally invading a god's personal domain and killing his forces right in front of him, and somehow winning.

    That's not a decision for you, what is possible in the WH world is a GW issue, not a Cossil issue. Yes, this is a planned visit, which would obviously be more successful that an accidental one. If it is how you suggest, Oxyotl would have been 'clicked' out of existence.. running and hiding? Impossible according to your understanding, which informs me that your understanding isn't fully correct.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,870
    edited June 2021
    Nyxilis said:

    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nobody is saying without attrition or damage. I've said that to if you're read anything. But you just said it survived and that was an accidental drop there.

    On top of Morathi's multiple expeditions. On top of other DE visits.Where they have succeeded in gaining what she desires. Why she keeps sending more.

    Why I said for armies that don't care about their troops

    Whatever plot macguffin takes them there one can go. One can survive. One can steal. No one is saying unscathed. Attrition is high. But you can go, and survive, and succeed. .

    Survive at most. And I actually checked, the disease plagued the entirety of Naggaroth, not just one city.

    She didn't? If you're referring to the time when Malekith was lost, they scoured the Chaos Wastes at most, not the Realm of Chaos.
    She did, she sent multiple. She didn't go herself, she considered herself to valuable but she kept sending them. And you want to argue this when you don't even know that?

    And yeah, it did. Guess what, Nurgle also did that multiple times without a visit, so did the Skaven with a lesser god of the rats. That's nothing unique to the realm. Big deal.
    Maelas said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
    Dark Elves, the biggest madmen and madwomen in Warhammer, expert in dark arts, thousand of years old each, entered the Chaos Realms in a litteral giant floating fortress, and they barely managed to escape, bringing back a disease that killed ten of thousands.

    If one of the most chaos-adjacent race paid such a steep price for a little incursion, a full-on invasion by weak humans should bring back empire-ruining consequences !
    Nobody is saying uscathed, CA didn't say unscathed but you blokes asking like its impossible are simply wrong.
    I actually had to look through two armybooks to find what you say, and honestly, I'm not entirely impressed. The 8th ed armybook literally dropped that note.

    And the 7th edition armybook doesn't actually say they were successful. It only says few returned at all. And it only mentions these before she founded Ghrond, after that there is no mention of any such expeditions. So I presume they turned out complete failures.

    Ok, let's do the argument again:

    "The argument is that it's impossible to go into the realm, get to the capital location of a god, beat that god's armies in that area, evade that god's attentions while right at his gates, your army not being completely obliterated the moment the god realizes you're there and manage to get out without nation ruining consequences."
    Crossil, this unit comes from 6th edition. Also Crossil, this is not from 8th edition doesn't count! Whatever.

    She sent, it's mentioned they returned. Immediately flies in the face of anyone that says it's not possible. Despite it not only being done, but then done again.

    Once more, the chaos gods do not snap fingers and obliterate. This is assigning to them things they never did. That's your own 'but muh gods'. They don't just snap fingers and delete. That's something you certainly can't cite.

    And you're also implying Khorne would ever do that. That's entirely 100% out of his character. You're violating lore by just implying he would snap his fingers instead of demanding his followers have a good fight. It's like saying Greenskins would push the i win button instead of simplying getting into a good scrap. So no your army would not be obliterated at all. That's not what any of the gods do. Least of all god of war and violence Khorne.

    And nation ending ruining consequences? If you visit Nurgles garden maybe. That's how it works for Khorne? Once more this is being very argued by people who seemed to want to assassinate the character of the gods and have them things they do not do. Just because it steps on the toes of the vaunted power trip fantasy.
    6th edition is actually worse because Morathi was still a servant of Slaanesh at that time. So it's a Chaos worshipper sending people into the Chaos realm? But I'll admit, I'm not sure what you're talking about by 6th ed.

    A few returned, and it's from what I can tell something that's largely glossed over. It is possible they were failures and she didn't do it past the founding of Ghrond, or at least that's as far as it goes in 7th ed, when she no longer was a Chaos servant. Suffice to say, it's pretty much the least relevant part of it.

    Yeah, now I need to teach you about Khorne's character.



    And please note, in the battle that CA published it says how the victory at the Brass Citadel actually **** him off. Why exactly would he be angry at losing when he has personally beaten back entire daemonic armies?

    You don't seem to understand, if there was an army that matched his forces, which normally is only the ones of his fellow gods, he would personally take part in that battle. He doesn't have issues with taking them on himself.

    Again, the arguments are very clear cut. What is being proposed here is effectively impossible.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 17,445
    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nobody is saying without attrition or damage. I've said that to if you're read anything. But you just said it survived and that was an accidental drop there.

    On top of Morathi's multiple expeditions. On top of other DE visits.Where they have succeeded in gaining what she desires. Why she keeps sending more.

    Why I said for armies that don't care about their troops

    Whatever plot macguffin takes them there one can go. One can survive. One can steal. No one is saying unscathed. Attrition is high. But you can go, and survive, and succeed. .

    Survive at most. And I actually checked, the disease plagued the entirety of Naggaroth, not just one city.

    She didn't? If you're referring to the time when Malekith was lost, they scoured the Chaos Wastes at most, not the Realm of Chaos.
    She did, she sent multiple. She didn't go herself, she considered herself to valuable but she kept sending them. And you want to argue this when you don't even know that?

    And yeah, it did. Guess what, Nurgle also did that multiple times without a visit, so did the Skaven with a lesser god of the rats. That's nothing unique to the realm. Big deal.
    Maelas said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
    Dark Elves, the biggest madmen and madwomen in Warhammer, expert in dark arts, thousand of years old each, entered the Chaos Realms in a litteral giant floating fortress, and they barely managed to escape, bringing back a disease that killed ten of thousands.

    If one of the most chaos-adjacent race paid such a steep price for a little incursion, a full-on invasion by weak humans should bring back empire-ruining consequences !
    Nobody is saying uscathed, CA didn't say unscathed but you blokes asking like its impossible are simply wrong.
    I actually had to look through two armybooks to find what you say, and honestly, I'm not entirely impressed. The 8th ed armybook literally dropped that note.

    And the 7th edition armybook doesn't actually say they were successful. It only says few returned at all. And it only mentions these before she founded Ghrond, after that there is no mention of any such expeditions. So I presume they turned out complete failures.

    Ok, let's do the argument again:

    "The argument is that it's impossible to go into the realm, get to the capital location of a god, beat that god's armies in that area, evade that god's attentions while right at his gates, your army not being completely obliterated the moment the god realizes you're there and manage to get out without nation ruining consequences."
    Crossil, this unit comes from 6th edition. Also Crossil, this is not from 8th edition doesn't count! Whatever.

    She sent, it's mentioned they returned. Immediately flies in the face of anyone that says it's not possible. Despite it not only being done, but then done again.

    Once more, the chaos gods do not snap fingers and obliterate. This is assigning to them things they never did. That's your own 'but muh gods'. They don't just snap fingers and delete. That's something you certainly can't cite.

    And you're also implying Khorne would ever do that. That's entirely 100% out of his character. You're violating lore by just implying he would snap his fingers instead of demanding his followers have a good fight. It's like saying Greenskins would push the i win button instead of simplying getting into a good scrap. So no your army would not be obliterated at all. That's not what any of the gods do. Least of all god of war and violence Khorne.

    And nation ending ruining consequences? If you visit Nurgles garden maybe. That's how it works for Khorne? Once more this is being very argued by people who seemed to want to assassinate the character of the gods and have them things they do not do. Just because it steps on the toes of the vaunted power trip fantasy.
    6th edition is actually worse because Morathi was still a servant of Slaanesh at that time. So it's a Chaos worshipper sending people into the Chaos realm? But I'll admit, I'm not sure what you're talking about by 6th ed.

    A few returned, and it's from what I can tell something that's largely glossed over. It is possible they were failures and she didn't do it past the founding of Ghrond, or at least that's as far as it goes in 7th ed, when she no longer was a Chaos servant. Suffice to say, it's pretty much the least relevant part of it.

    Yeah, now I need to teach you about Khorne's character.



    And please note, in the battle that CA published it says how the victory at the Brass Citadel actually **** him off. Why exactly would he be angry at losing when he has personally beaten back entire daemonic armies?

    You don't seem to understand, if there was an army that matched his forces, which normally is only the ones of his fellow gods, he would personally take part in that battle. He doesn't have issues with taking them on himself.

    Again, the arguments are very clear cut. What is being proposed here is effectively impossible.
    forget khorne but this literally means other gods do get involved, does that mean i get to burn nurgle?

    CA i know its horrrible lore but i want to do it

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • CrajohCrajoh Member Registered Users Posts: 2,657
    I really like being able to toggle on the outline of your troops in forests.
    Live your life and try to do no harm.

    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,870

    So now we have a new argument. So we accept it is not impossible to enter Chaos and survive? Even if you are dropped in by accident. Now, if you plan to go in with the help of particular knowledge, magic ability or an artifact your chances may well be better.

    No, it's my argument, whereas you were arguing with someone else before that. And nothing in the examples shown until now actually contradicts what I said.

    Again, you're basing your new rules on the fact that it has not happened before, not some objective truth. You are also so against it you are not even waiting for the updated lore by GW (the people who write the lore) which tells me there's a level of bias.

    So you're essentially saying they're retconning things, so I'm wrong based on materials that exist? No, it means that at best it's a retcon and nothing until now supports that action.

    Yes, the DE and Oxyotl were sent into the RoC without a plan or prep yet managed to kill daemons and escape. What about if you know why you're going, when you're going and how to survive?

    The issues are the same.

    1.) Why you're going doesn't actually allow you to determine where you're going. That's why you have Oxyotl, Malekith and so on getting lost there or ending in there by mistake. The reason why they couldn't get out easily is because the place is far too inconsistent to actually map it out.
    2.) Yeah, when you're going also doesn't work as time shifts differently than normal in the Realm of Chaos. I don't know of any real means of cotrolling the passage of time in it.
    3.) Surviving at the gates of a god's personal fortress doesn't sound at all possible. Invading someplace like the Impossible Fortress sounds even more insane. The place is even noted as being too complex for anyone but the Lords of Change to explore.

    Why would I be disappointed? How does that change what I said? The chances of catching a disease in Nurgles garden is high I assume, but so what? A high chance of failure does not stop you from entering a certain location in a game that is there to specifically give the player freedom and do the most extreme of narratives.

    Do we get to go to the bottom of the ocean then? I don't know, having a fight with the fishmen at the bottom of the ocean sounds rather extreme.

    Same issue. Khorne's very dangerous just like the other gods, yeah we know, but without knowledge of the lore connected to this narrative you cannot objectively say it is impossible or how likely it is. You are also forgetting that all of these things could have happened to any other survivor from RoC.. but here's the thing - it didn't.

    Which is why I personally note that the only way any of this makes sense is if it isn't the actual Realm of Chaos. And I hope that really is the case. But that actually being correct, that we invade the actual realms wherein we have a coherent plan of invading the literal impossible fortress, is in fact impossible.

    There aren't really any survivors from the Realm of Chaos that met a god, to my knowledge.

    That's not a decision for you, what is possible in the WH world is a GW issue, not a Cossil issue. Yes, this is a planned visit, which would obviously be more successful that an accidental one. If it is how you suggest, Oxyotl would have been 'clicked' out of existence.. running and hiding? Impossible according to your understanding, which informs me that your understanding isn't fully correct.

    So, essentially, you're saying that because they can rewrite it whatever way they want that there doesn't have to be any sort of precedent for it in existing materials?

    Let me put it like this, you are free to clown around as much as you want, but the entire thing reads like fanfiction.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 6,539
    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Crossil said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nobody is saying without attrition or damage. I've said that to if you're read anything. But you just said it survived and that was an accidental drop there.

    On top of Morathi's multiple expeditions. On top of other DE visits.Where they have succeeded in gaining what she desires. Why she keeps sending more.

    Why I said for armies that don't care about their troops

    Whatever plot macguffin takes them there one can go. One can survive. One can steal. No one is saying unscathed. Attrition is high. But you can go, and survive, and succeed. .

    Survive at most. And I actually checked, the disease plagued the entirety of Naggaroth, not just one city.

    She didn't? If you're referring to the time when Malekith was lost, they scoured the Chaos Wastes at most, not the Realm of Chaos.
    She did, she sent multiple. She didn't go herself, she considered herself to valuable but she kept sending them. And you want to argue this when you don't even know that?

    And yeah, it did. Guess what, Nurgle also did that multiple times without a visit, so did the Skaven with a lesser god of the rats. That's nothing unique to the realm. Big deal.
    Maelas said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Surge_2 said:

    So your argument is that it is intact loreful that a military force of mortals can enter a realm of madness and thought, and metaphor, and knock down the main citadel of the literal Gods?

    In a grimdark setting?

    Dark Elf forces have entered it per lore, and come back per lore, with rewards per lore. How hard is that to get through your head on that? Dark elves entered the realm of madness and metaphor and came back. In a grimdark setting. And not one DE hero was amongst them.

    Nobody said knocking down the citadel, bet that's not the point.

    They've already tagged consequences.

    And yes, in a grimdark setting.
    Dark Elves, the biggest madmen and madwomen in Warhammer, expert in dark arts, thousand of years old each, entered the Chaos Realms in a litteral giant floating fortress, and they barely managed to escape, bringing back a disease that killed ten of thousands.

    If one of the most chaos-adjacent race paid such a steep price for a little incursion, a full-on invasion by weak humans should bring back empire-ruining consequences !
    Nobody is saying uscathed, CA didn't say unscathed but you blokes asking like its impossible are simply wrong.
    I actually had to look through two armybooks to find what you say, and honestly, I'm not entirely impressed. The 8th ed armybook literally dropped that note.

    And the 7th edition armybook doesn't actually say they were successful. It only says few returned at all. And it only mentions these before she founded Ghrond, after that there is no mention of any such expeditions. So I presume they turned out complete failures.

    Ok, let's do the argument again:

    "The argument is that it's impossible to go into the realm, get to the capital location of a god, beat that god's armies in that area, evade that god's attentions while right at his gates, your army not being completely obliterated the moment the god realizes you're there and manage to get out without nation ruining consequences."
    Crossil, this unit comes from 6th edition. Also Crossil, this is not from 8th edition doesn't count! Whatever.

    She sent, it's mentioned they returned. Immediately flies in the face of anyone that says it's not possible. Despite it not only being done, but then done again.

    Once more, the chaos gods do not snap fingers and obliterate. This is assigning to them things they never did. That's your own 'but muh gods'. They don't just snap fingers and delete. That's something you certainly can't cite.

    And you're also implying Khorne would ever do that. That's entirely 100% out of his character. You're violating lore by just implying he would snap his fingers instead of demanding his followers have a good fight. It's like saying Greenskins would push the i win button instead of simplying getting into a good scrap. So no your army would not be obliterated at all. That's not what any of the gods do. Least of all god of war and violence Khorne.

    And nation ending ruining consequences? If you visit Nurgles garden maybe. That's how it works for Khorne? Once more this is being very argued by people who seemed to want to assassinate the character of the gods and have them things they do not do. Just because it steps on the toes of the vaunted power trip fantasy.
    6th edition is actually worse because Morathi was still a servant of Slaanesh at that time. So it's a Chaos worshipper sending people into the Chaos realm? But I'll admit, I'm not sure what you're talking about by 6th ed.

    A few returned, and it's from what I can tell something that's largely glossed over. It is possible they were failures and she didn't do it past the founding of Ghrond, or at least that's as far as it goes in 7th ed, when she no longer was a Chaos servant. Suffice to say, it's pretty much the least relevant part of it.

    Yeah, now I need to teach you about Khorne's character.



    And please note, in the battle that CA published it says how the victory at the Brass Citadel actually **** him off. Why exactly would he be angry at losing when he has personally beaten back entire daemonic armies?

    You don't seem to understand, if there was an army that matched his forces, which normally is only the ones of his fellow gods, he would personally take part in that battle. He doesn't have issues with taking them on himself.

    Again, the arguments are very clear cut. What is being proposed here is effectively impossible.
    It's possible they were failures? Why don't you just give a bit fat you don't know what you're talking about then. You don't know what the lore is around how you get in and how you get out and the majority of what you're working off is fan fiction ala Crossil.

    Yes, you taught me something Crossil. That he does not snap his fingers, does not delete armies, and waits till his minions get their arses kicked to then make a rare appearance. And that's stated against the armies of the other gods, if a group of humans came I don't expect him to stand up at all till they get to his throne. Probably congratulate him before he does anything, as I don't expect the story to have anything about deleting them. But if they're there for some artifact is that worthy of his personal appearance? Not even by the standards of your snippet.

    And that sets him apart from the other gods who make no physical appearance at all.

    This didn't help you at all, it reinforced every point I've been making.
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