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As a legendary hero for Arkhan/Neferata/Ushoran or some such.
Or as a 1-LL faction that confederates (any) undead lords into his faction after he defeats them -- but he's going to be a horde faction just to spite YOU, yes you, SPECIFICALLY. You know who you are.
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And yes, I most certainly count Nippon out of the running for the preorder. I really do not believe the preorder will be another human faction.
A 1 LL faction which uses 90% of the same undead units we already have would be the worst possible thing they could label a 'race'. It's so insanely low effort CA might actually do it...
Why not? GW already did. That's all Nagash was before AoS.
Personally, I still think Chaos Dwarves are the 'favourite' (in a bookmaking sense) for the pre-order; they fit perfectly on the map and there's evidence that they were planned originally.
Nagash has obviously been done before, but I really don't like the idea of the 'big bad' of the setting being locked behind a paywall. I get why they did this with Archaon, but the same explanation wouldn't really cut it this time when the game has been designed with the pre-order in mind.
Hobgoblins is possibly something like Norsa in the scope of it - it would fit nicely on the map, but also would cross-over with a Chaos Dwarf race too - I'd love to see this, but I'm not sure if GW/CA can sell more 'greenskins riding wolves', especially not in the context of Game 3's campaign. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Dogs of War... just don't see how this would fit the campaign for the third game. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but it would feel a little out of place. I really hope they're added one day, and we don't know, maybe the Game 3 campaign map includes the whole Empire, but I can't see this added as a pre-order. Especially as, despite all evidence that The Empire are the most popular race in game, it seems GW/CA want to steer away from 'normal humans' and they don't fit GW's current "EVERYTHING IS BIG OR MAGIC" vibe.
As a legendary hero for Arkhan/Neferata/Ushoran or some such.
Or as a 1-LL faction that confederates (any) undead lords into his faction after he defeats them -- but he's going to be a horde faction just to spite YOU, yes you, SPECIFICALLY. You know who you are.
------
And yes, I most certainly count Nippon out of the running for the preorder. I really do not believe the preorder will be another human faction.
A 1 LL faction which uses 90% of the same undead units we already have would be the worst possible thing they could label a 'race'. It's so insanely low effort CA might actually do it...
Why not? GW already did. That's all Nagash was before AoS.
It makes me so sad that Dogs of War - an actual tabletop army with a host of characters, miniatures and novels around them have ended up lumped in with the 'reject races'.
The only race who directly fits the story is Albion. Who have a very close connection to Chaos...either against it or supporting it.
Nagash counts too, depends how they do his race.
I mean... they are barely a race to start with. And Albion already has two seperate LL's starting on it (with only 3 settlements... pretty confident they aren't ever coming.
I think the only hint we've had is in the announcement video. The developer said that because they have gone so far east they have done factions not seen in any Warhammer IP before. One is of course Cathay but as she said plural in a scripted marketing video I'd assume Hobgoblins or Nippon or even someone else from the east is coming sometime.
I believe that Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms will be campaign packs as they have a lot of content.
I do feel Nagashizzar or a major DoW town need to be on the map for the other two to be considered but no one knows the map yet. AFAIK there's not any named characters in each race with a link to the east. They can of course just put Nagash in the Steppes if they want though.
could middenland possibly be the preorder? With a fleshed out cult of Ulric giving the empire the favourite race and also one of the main enemies of chaos a starting position on the warhammer 3 map.
could middenland possibly be the preorder? With a fleshed out cult of Ulric giving the empire the favourite race and also one of the main enemies of chaos a starting position on the warhammer 3 map.
The pre order is a race, not a lord pack.
MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
Look, OP, just because you don't want Chaos Dwarfs to happen doesn't mean it isn't an option. I've seen a lot of people off these forums hold that as an opinion(conversely, off of these forums no one talks about Hobgoblins). Now, please, before you hit disagree, I don't want Chaos Dwarfs to be the pre order either! But to suggest they are not one of the "popular pre-order race theories" is silly.
Formerly known as Krunch, in case you wonder where he went.
Look, OP, just because you don't want Chaos Dwarfs to happen doesn't mean it isn't an option. I've seen a lot of people off these forums hold that as an opinion(conversely, off of these forums no one talks about Hobgoblins). Now, please, before you hit disagree, I don't want Chaos Dwarfs to be the pre order either! But to suggest they are not one of the "popular pre-order race theories" is silly.
You can't do Chaos Dwarfs on a pre-order race pack budget without gutting 60% of it.
I don't see how you can honestly say they're an option.
The Chaos Dwarf meme only started because;
-The Dark Lands are on the ME map, when there has been not a single piece of info suggested they'll be playable on game 2. -Content creators who started propagating it don't know the difference between a race and campaign pack. -They forgot ME isn't the Vortex(The actual Warhammer 2), which would mean you'd need to own two previous AAA titles to play the pre-order. Which is just asking for a backlash.
MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
Look, OP, just because you don't want Chaos Dwarfs to happen doesn't mean it isn't an option. I've seen a lot of people off these forums hold that as an opinion(conversely, off of these forums no one talks about Hobgoblins). Now, please, before you hit disagree, I don't want Chaos Dwarfs to be the pre order either! But to suggest they are not one of the "popular pre-order race theories" is silly.
You can't do Chaos Dwarfs on a pre-order race pack budget without gutting 60% of it.
I don't see how you can honestly say they're an option.
That's an overstatement in the extreme. The whole chaos dwarf side of the roster is easy peasy, only thing that's new is Fireglaives and even then they have experience with Streltsi now on how to do that sort of weapon. Hobgoblins would require new skeletons, as well as hobgoblin riders but that doesn't seem too difficult. I don't think the artillery is some herculean task, same with the Lamassu and Bull Centaurs. K'daii would certainly be very challenging, but I think it could be done. I am sure -something- would indeed be missing from the roster, but I really don't think it'd be that bad.
Formerly known as Krunch, in case you wonder where he went.
If we exclude GS chaff, they need models or reskin for the elite infantry, lords, bull centaurs, Great Bull and Lamassu, the small /large K'daii then 4 artillery pieces (though some don't require much)
Add a new lore, all the architecture for the battle/campaign map. Possible specific rules (seism cannon, infernal train) It's not impossible but start streching the definition of preorder.
Norsca reused marauders (like GS for chorfs) add new skin for high tier berzerkers etc. New models for Giant, mammoths, skinwolves, Fimir. recolor for wyrm, wolves. Map and all were present and required adapting a bit the wastes.
Look, OP, just because you don't want Chaos Dwarfs to happen doesn't mean it isn't an option. I've seen a lot of people off these forums hold that as an opinion(conversely, off of these forums no one talks about Hobgoblins). Now, please, before you hit disagree, I don't want Chaos Dwarfs to be the pre order either! But to suggest they are not one of the "popular pre-order race theories" is silly.
You can't do Chaos Dwarfs on a pre-order race pack budget without gutting 60% of it.
I don't see how you can honestly say they're an option.
That's an overstatement in the extreme. The whole chaos dwarf side of the roster is easy peasy, only thing that's new is Fireglaives and even then they have experience with Streltsi now on how to do that sort of weapon. Hobgoblins would require new skeletons, as well as hobgoblin riders but that doesn't seem too difficult. I don't think the artillery is some herculean task, same with the Lamassu and Bull Centaurs. K'daii would certainly be very challenging, but I think it could be done. I am sure -something- would indeed be missing from the roster, but I really don't think it'd be that bad.
Okey lets count, chaos dwarf not gonna need excesive riggind and new animation but they will have complete remodel, at least middle tier. The hobos little bit easier will still be remodels even when moderate work.
Th siege giant, easily not only need some serious model work, also animation because he literally have no hands, so his attack must be diffrent from all the giant existing, yes he is a giant, but with no hands and complete new armor.
Bullcentaur, no question ask, even when ca not do new animation and just do centigor ones, they still need a complete remodel, is not gonna be just slap a chaos dwarf beard on a centigor and call it a day.
Infernalguard with fireglaive, need definitly new animation for there melee/skirmish weapon.
The great taurux, is hard to get the mino head of a manticore, so easily a complete remodel too, because we not have any real bulls in the game to reuse.
Deathshriek rocket launcher, yes they will just use the Helstorm Rocket Battery animation with some rig but the model is completely unique.
I could be go further and further but i think i made my point, that even the easiest pieces of them need remodeling, or complete new one, with few animation sprinkle in, that to much for a pre order to handle what we saw.
Woc, his was pretty much a lord pack that add some units, most of the roster was already there just not playable.
Norsca: bigger but really not that say (jupp ogre and cd easily could be realise with them)
I think people have forgotten how Race Packs work compared to Campaign Packs. We've only ever had 3 of these during the history of this series, and each time they have fleshed out a faction that already had content ingame:
1st - Warriors of Chaos DLC fleshed out, and made playable, the unplayable Warriors of Chaos mini-faction that had been purely intended to be used as an end game threat 2nd - Bretonnia FLC fleshed out, and made playable, the Bretonnia mini-faction that existed on the map but who were not playable 3rd - Norsca DLC fleshed out, and made playable, the vanilla Norsca factions who were using Warriors of Chaos content. To make Norsca they reused various units/models from WoC, but also unused units from the army books and Forgeworld.
Although CA might break away from this tradition, but right now it provides the only clues to what they might do. The likelihood is that they'll base a race pack on an existing faction, reusing some units, models, textures and animations, while providing some new LL's and a bunch of new units to go alongside it.
As such, it makes a faction like Hobgoblins unlikely because they don't have a unit ingame so far, but it means factions like Dogs of War, Legions of Nagash, Norse Dwarfs, Cult of Ulric, and so on are more plausible than people might have realised.
Hobgoblins can reuse the basic models of steppe goblins, with new skins for their low tier. The mid elite + unique units type do require work (like Norsca, mind you)
Dogs of war require new reskins for their infantry and cavalry and new rules for their pikes. Im not delving into the more complex stuff, because it's either some leonardo fantasy or really units from other races. I'd put them on par with hobgolins, depending on how close or not we want their units to look like imperiaks.
Nagash is whatever he needs to be. I won't try to estimate the work, probably lesser than any other suggestion, though.
Cult of Ulric is basically an empire reskin. I get the appeal but to call them a race aka culture is stretching it. Norse dwarfs are the same.
Nagash has never been a Vampire Count character. He was "Undead" in 4th edition which didn't seperate VC and TK, and led a combined undead faction in End Times.
In 3rd edition there weren't really named characters. (There were some, but they were in special scenarios.) The Undead army was mostly skeletons (Warriors, Archers, Crossbowmen, Grim Reapers, Death Riders, Chariots, Stone Throwers), supplemented by Zombies, Ghouls, Mummies, and Carrion-riding Wraiths. The armies were led by Liches, Vampires, Necromancers, and non-magic wielding heroes (with great names like Charnel Warriors, Grave Fiends, Tombterrors, and Corpse Knights).
In 4th edition GW started making Army Books devoted to individual factions. The Undead book was one of them, and it's big character (both physically and in story prominence) was Nagash. It also featured a trio of Von Carsteins Vampire Counts (Vlad, Isabella, and Konrad), some Necromancers (Dieter Helsnicht, Kemmler & Krell), the Tomb King Settra, and the Liche King Arkhan the Black. The roster was mostly the same, adding some minor (ethereal) things and taking away others (bye, Grim Reapers and Crossbow Skeletons).
In 5th edition, rather than updating the Undead as a single faction GW decided to break it up. The designer, Tuomas Pirinen, wrote an article at the time explaining that the massed hordes lacked theme, and as such they were going to focus on only one of the pillars of the undead book: the Vampires of Sylvania. The other two he named as the Mummies of Nehekhara, and the Undead Legions of Nagash.
He noted that focusing just on the Vampire Counts let them bring in other European stereotypes: Dire Wolves, Banshees, Vampire Bats, etc. Those were added to the basic skeleton/zombie/ghoul/ethereal core. Character wise, the book got the Necromancers and Vampires (while adding more of the latter). Pirinen went on to say: "There are other types of Undead, of course, notably the armies of the Tomb Kings of Khemri and the legions of Nagash the Great Necromancer, and we may deal with these in future publications."
In 6th edition VCs were updated a smidge in their new book and the Tomb Kings officially entered the game. The latter were mostly the remaining bits of the 4th edition Undead book given an Egyptian makeover: Mummies and Liches, Chariots and Horsemen, Catapults and Archers, and the Carrion (now sans riders). Plus a handful of new thematic things: Scorpions, Ushabti, Bone Giants, and the Casket of Souls. Settra and the new Khalida were the only characters present.
6th edition also saw the White Dwarf article on the Army of the Lichemaster (aka Army of the Cairns) which effectively mimicked the 4th edition Undead roster. 7th saw the VCs gain more vampire-y monsters.
By 8th edition it seems the thought of making a distinct Undead Legions book was well and truly dead, as Arkhan was added to the Tomb Kings. Honestly, it was hard to see what they would have been, as the Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings effectively split the Undead book in two, not three. There were a couple things hanging about, but not much.
We had mounting descriptions of Nagashizzar (in High Elves and Vampire Counts books), which included Bone Golems and Skeletal Bolt Throwers, so seeds were being planted for Nagash's return. I think we might have gotten something like a (very) turned down version of the Ossiarch Bone Reapers, had a WHFB 9th edition taken place.
But it didn't. The End Times happened instead, and while Nagash returned to the game with a couple new units his Undead Legion turned out to just be everything Undead slapped together. Very disappointing.
@LordSolarMach : interesting history of the undeads in warhammer. Though be honest once Nagash lore was written, his legion was effectively killed. He was the undead tomb king usurper who turned the other tomb kinds into undeads, and whose work was imitated to create the first vampies. These two were consolidated into two separate undead tropes, leaving Nagash more as a plot point that anything.
Like I said, he plays the role of element death kinda, so in the context of warhammer he's either the precursor of undeads, or an amalgation of them. (a bit like leading Elves before their different schisms. ) To really make im into tsomething separate, there would be a need to just merge different visions of the afterlife, and creatures built from nothing but reminiscent of death (his own model is kinda about that) and at this stage, you're not looking at something really thematic, at least in not in the warhammer sense.
If you consider a serie like Heroes of might and magic, there is one undead faction and it amalgamed several undead tropes, from dragon zombies, to gouls, specters, vampires, mummies and in the later edition undead spiders (like the nerubian theme of warcraft) It kinda works because there aren't already undead subfactions present. This is one example, but it's mostly the trope of "one faction is undeads". In WH, Nagash ends into the awkward position of being technically tied to all undeads.
its still focused on these 3 only...despite people's mental promotion of CDs to something big due to a mod, they're still relatively minor compared to proper 8th armies, and are a perfectly good candidate for the pre-order.
The fact that some people want "more" from them than being a pre-order and are excluding them due to this fact from conversation, doesn't actually mean they are not likely to be it.
The Russian leak had CD as a dlc. I don't they changed their minds on that. They definitely could, but I'm really doubting it.
That leak has turned out to be pretty spot on throughout. (Which I'm sure hurts many people on this forum to hear ); that's the main reason I'm assuming Ogres & CD are the Campaign packs.
Don't remind me about that gosh darn leak ! I've spent 3 years deriding it, only to end up looking like a fool !
@LordSolarMach : interesting history of the undeads in warhammer. Though be honest once Nagash lore was written, his legion was effectively killed...
And yet all that lore was present in the original 4th edition book*, and Pirinen still separated out the Legions of Nagash from the Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings.
*(The locations section starts with a talk about Nehekhara - Nagash is the only person mentioned, his great ritual prominent. After that it has a section on Nagashizzar (longer than Nehekhara's), then the Plain of Bones, Castle Drakenhof, and Moussillon. The history section starts with The Great Necromancer on page 12 and runs to page 19. There starts the next section: The Return of Nagash (which goes until page 23). After that, five pages on The Vampire Counts of Sylvania.)
That leak has turned out to be pretty spot on throughout. (Which I'm sure hurts many people on this forum to hear ); that's the main reason I'm assuming Ogres & CD are the Campaign packs.
They took the originally planned first expansion (Lizardmen, High Elves, Dark Elves) and added the Skaven DLC to make game two.
And they've taken the second planned expansion (monogods) and added Cathay and Kislev to make game three.
So I'd agree that the fact that at one point they wanted to do Chaos Dwarfs as a Campaign Pack (and not a Race Pack) makes it likely that they still do. But there is wiggle room. We definitely know they're coming; we don't 100% know how... just ~95%.
Look, OP, just because you don't want Chaos Dwarfs to happen doesn't mean it isn't an option. I've seen a lot of people off these forums hold that as an opinion(conversely, off of these forums no one talks about Hobgoblins). Now, please, before you hit disagree, I don't want Chaos Dwarfs to be the pre order either! But to suggest they are not one of the "popular pre-order race theories" is silly.
You can't do Chaos Dwarfs on a pre-order race pack budget without gutting 60% of it.
I don't see how you can honestly say they're an option.
That's an overstatement in the extreme. The whole chaos dwarf side of the roster is easy peasy, only thing that's new is Fireglaives and even then they have experience with Streltsi now on how to do that sort of weapon. Hobgoblins would require new skeletons, as well as hobgoblin riders but that doesn't seem too difficult. I don't think the artillery is some herculean task, same with the Lamassu and Bull Centaurs. K'daii would certainly be very challenging, but I think it could be done. I am sure -something- would indeed be missing from the roster, but I really don't think it'd be that bad.
Okey lets count, chaos dwarf not gonna need excesive riggind and new animation but they will have complete remodel, at least middle tier. The hobos little bit easier will still be remodels even when moderate work.
Th siege giant, easily not only need some serious model work, also animation because he literally have no hands, so his attack must be diffrent from all the giant existing, yes he is a giant, but with no hands and complete new armor.
Bullcentaur, no question ask, even when ca not do new animation and just do centigor ones, they still need a complete remodel, is not gonna be just slap a chaos dwarf beard on a centigor and call it a day.
Infernalguard with fireglaive, need definitly new animation for there melee/skirmish weapon.
The great taurux, is hard to get the mino head of a manticore, so easily a complete remodel too, because we not have any real bulls in the game to reuse.
Deathshriek rocket launcher, yes they will just use the Helstorm Rocket Battery animation with some rig but the model is completely unique.
I could be go further and further but i think i made my point, that even the easiest pieces of them need remodeling, or complete new one, with few animation sprinkle in, that to much for a pre order to handle what we saw.
Woc, his was pretty much a lord pack that add some units, most of the roster was already there just not playable.
Norsca: bigger but really not that say (jupp ogre and cd easily could be realise with them)
Never mind that...it needs Campaign pack budget to do the Iron Daemon War Engine properly and the Kollossus.
Dogs of War just makes the most sense really. There are going to be a lot of people where WH3 will be their first total warhmmaer game, and there are a lot of people who have Warhammer 2 but not 1. Dogs of War can act like a sampling platter for new players. Let them play with some of the units from all the other races like high elves, dark elves, dwarfs, empire and potentially even orcs to tempt them into buying the previous games, also they can add some units from the WIP ogre kingdoms so tha people can get a taste of Ogres and get excited for that DLC, and it's entirely conceivable they could get access to some chaos dwarf units, also giving people a taste of chaos dwarfs and getting people excited and ready to buy them. Managing armies with units from opposed factions (like dwarfs vs chaos dwarfs) could be a major theme of the campaign, as would aligning more with the chaos factions or order factions and potentially having mercenary companies falling to chaos.
Personally, I still think Chaos Dwarves are the 'favourite' (in a bookmaking sense) for the pre-order; they fit perfectly on the map and there's evidence that they were planned originally.
Planned as a campaign DLC, if the preorders of old are any example this will not be a big budget thing. It will be a second fiddle low hanging fruit.
Warriors of Chaos were already mostly made to be the villain. They already mostly existed in Warhammer 1. Repackaged second thought for preorder.
Norsca, mostly already existing resources and slim.
While I admit that Chaos Dwarfs or Ogre Kingdoms would be a larger faction than Norsca, I don't feel they're that much more ambitious than Warriors of Chaos, especially with creative re-use of assets.
They could be a full-fledged race-pack later down the road, but they're the big names occupying space between Kislev and Cathay, and it was a huge surprise not to see them in the baseline roster as is.
While I admit that Chaos Dwarfs or Ogre Kingdoms would be a larger faction than Norsca, I don't feel they're that much more ambitious than Warriors of Chaos, especially with creative re-use of assets.
They could be a full-fledged race-pack later down the road, but they're the big names occupying space between Kislev and Cathay, and it was a huge surprise not to see them in the baseline roster as is.
Thing is the Warriors of Chaos were mostly already done. They were used as a nonplayable villain in Warhammer 1. Six races were essentially mostly already built for game 1. As CA has said on multiple occassions. Empire, Dwarves, Greenskins, Vampire Counts, and Bretonnia the others.
Bretonnia was useable in MP and had a reduced map presence and no real AI mechanics that were unique.
But, the point is that the Warriors of Chaos rendering, rigging, texturing, and roster AI for the battles was already done.
Then they realized they needed a preorder and decided to finish the already existing villain. This has also been up front stated in past things.
So no, there wasn't much work for the preorder with the WoC that wasn't already done. It was primarily map mechanics.
its still focused on these 3 only...despite people's mental promotion of CDs to something big due to a mod, they're still relatively minor compared to proper 8th armies, and are a perfectly good candidate for the pre-order.
The fact that some people want "more" from them than being a pre-order and are excluding them due to this fact from conversation, doesn't actually mean they are not likely to be it.
The Russian leak had CD as a dlc. I don't they changed their minds on that. They definitely could, but I'm really doubting it.
That leak has turned out to be pretty spot on throughout. (Which I'm sure hurts many people on this forum to hear ); that's the main reason I'm assuming Ogres & CD are the Campaign packs.
Yeah, I have no idea why people think that it is a high chance for CA to throw money away. On a previous point you made, I think DoW were not planned initially in the beginning of the series based on the leaks, but they could make it into the game now.
it's worth noting none of the pre-orders were shown on that leak.
Yep, it's like CA realized they could get hype going/more money by doing pre-order races. So their plans changed a lot. I think it would be very fitting for DoW to get into the games due to having a real army book in the past. I think they could make a fantastic race pack and that a pre-order would not do them justice. But if the one way they get in is a pre-order then so be it. This is all coming from someone who doesn't even like DoW or any of the human factions in the setting. They should make it in due to having far more content and official rules over other things. But I don't make the decisions at CA.
Honestly, I don't see where the idea that a Nagash race pack is likely comes from. That's not happening. Stop and think about what such a race pack would actually entail for a minute, and some very obvious issues with it start cropping up...
If it were to be made a proper race DLC with plenty of new units invented by CA/GW, then it still wouldn't make sense for anything currently in the vampire counts roster to be missing from the faction.
If it contains the entire vampire counts roster, aside from the legendary lords, then why is it a race pack? In that case, it'd make more sense for Nagash to be part of a lord pack with a sub-faction that has access to some tomb kings units, like Arkhan gets access to some VC units, and Allarielle gets some WE units...
There would also need to be some additional lords as part of the faction. Who do they pick for the other 3? Arkhan, Nagash's number 2, isn't an option. They could do Neferata, but she makes more sense leading a vampire counts sub-faction... The same goes for most of the candidates. The only character that actually makes sense leading Nagash's roster is Nagash...
Norsca got a bunch of new units. It wasn't all re-skins: Ice trolls, Ice Wolves, Ice Wolf Chariots, Marauder champions(+variant), Fimir (+variant), and Mammoths all had unique animations.
Chaos Dwarfs would be more likely than Nagash, IMO... They can re-use a lot of Dwarf and Greenskin assets, and are a key faction on the game 3 map for a fairly large/central, map area... Hobgoblins are another good option for the same reasons. The units that would require new rigs for Chaos Dwarfs are K'Daai fireborn, K'daai destroyers, Iron Daemon War Engines, and maybe bull Centaur Renders (they might work with the dragon ogre rig, but have other weapon variants). The units that would need new animations are those + maybe some of the artillery, though artillery animations tend to be pretty simplistic compared to other units. It's pretty much on par with Norsca really. Ogres would have been a different matter, as everything in the roster would need new rigs/animations.
Dogs of War aren't the best option, as they're based in Tilea. I suspect we won't see them until after Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres, when the combined map is available.
Really, the options that make the most sense are either Chaos Dwarfs or Hobgoblins. I'd lean towards Chaos Dwarfs, as it's a more "official" faction with more material to work off of, and GW is already working with CA on fleshing out Kislev and Cathay. The need to go through GW for designs, approval, etc... would add some extra lag time on work for a Hobgoblin DLC that they just don't have to worry about to the same degree with Chaos Dwarfs. It might actually be more work to implement - either way, the two factions share some units, and there could very easily be a Hobgoblin focused sub-faction for Chaos Dwarfs, and if it is Chaos Dwarfs as the DLC, then some mixed Goblin/Hobgoblin factions could easily fill out the Hobgoblin Khanate regions until the faction gets fleshed out, if that ever happens.
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0 · 1Disagree AgreeNagash has obviously been done before, but I really don't like the idea of the 'big bad' of the setting being locked behind a paywall. I get why they did this with Archaon, but the same explanation wouldn't really cut it this time when the game has been designed with the pre-order in mind.
Hobgoblins is possibly something like Norsa in the scope of it - it would fit nicely on the map, but also would cross-over with a Chaos Dwarf race too - I'd love to see this, but I'm not sure if GW/CA can sell more 'greenskins riding wolves', especially not in the context of Game 3's campaign. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Dogs of War... just don't see how this would fit the campaign for the third game. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but it would feel a little out of place. I really hope they're added one day, and we don't know, maybe the Game 3 campaign map includes the whole Empire, but I can't see this added as a pre-order. Especially as, despite all evidence that The Empire are the most popular race in game, it seems GW/CA want to steer away from 'normal humans' and they don't fit GW's current "EVERYTHING IS BIG OR MAGIC" vibe.
"GW did it" /= "it was good"
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1 · 7Disagree 1AgreeNagash counts too, depends how they do his race.
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6 · 5Disagree 6AgreeI believe that Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms will be campaign packs as they have a lot of content.
I do feel Nagashizzar or a major DoW town need to be on the map for the other two to be considered but no one knows the map yet. AFAIK there's not any named characters in each race with a link to the east. They can of course just put Nagash in the Steppes if they want though.
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4 · 1Disagree 4AgreeI don't see how you can honestly say they're an option.
The Chaos Dwarf meme only started because;
-The Dark Lands are on the ME map, when there has been not a single piece of info suggested they'll be playable on game 2.
-Content creators who started propagating it don't know the difference between a race and campaign pack.
-They forgot ME isn't the Vortex(The actual Warhammer 2), which would mean you'd need to own two previous AAA titles to play the pre-order. Which is just asking for a backlash.
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3 · 7Disagree 3AgreeAdd a new lore, all the architecture for the battle/campaign map. Possible specific rules (seism cannon, infernal train)
It's not impossible but start streching the definition of preorder.
Norsca reused marauders (like GS for chorfs) add new skin for high tier berzerkers etc. New models for Giant, mammoths, skinwolves, Fimir. recolor for wyrm, wolves. Map and all were present and required adapting a bit the wastes.
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1 · 1Disagree 1AgreeTh siege giant, easily not only need some serious model work, also animation because he literally have no hands, so his attack must be diffrent from all the giant existing, yes he is a giant, but with no hands and complete new armor.
Bullcentaur, no question ask, even when ca not do new animation and just do centigor ones, they still need a complete remodel, is not gonna be just slap a chaos dwarf beard on a centigor and call it a day.
Infernalguard with fireglaive, need definitly new animation for there melee/skirmish weapon.
The great taurux, is hard to get the mino head of a manticore, so easily a complete remodel too, because we not have any real bulls in the game to reuse.
Deathshriek rocket launcher, yes they will just use the Helstorm Rocket Battery animation with some rig but the model is completely unique.
I could be go further and further but i think i made my point, that even the easiest pieces of them need remodeling, or complete new one, with few animation sprinkle in, that to much for a pre order to handle what we saw.
Woc, his was pretty much a lord pack that add some units, most of the roster was already there just not playable.
Norsca: bigger but really not that say (jupp ogre and cd easily could be realise with them)
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5 · 2Disagree 5Agree1st - Warriors of Chaos DLC fleshed out, and made playable, the unplayable Warriors of Chaos mini-faction that had been purely intended to be used as an end game threat
2nd - Bretonnia FLC fleshed out, and made playable, the Bretonnia mini-faction that existed on the map but who were not playable
3rd - Norsca DLC fleshed out, and made playable, the vanilla Norsca factions who were using Warriors of Chaos content. To make Norsca they reused various units/models from WoC, but also unused units from the army books and Forgeworld.
Although CA might break away from this tradition, but right now it provides the only clues to what they might do. The likelihood is that they'll base a race pack on an existing faction, reusing some units, models, textures and animations, while providing some new LL's and a bunch of new units to go alongside it.
As such, it makes a faction like Hobgoblins unlikely because they don't have a unit ingame so far, but it means factions like Dogs of War, Legions of Nagash, Norse Dwarfs, Cult of Ulric, and so on are more plausible than people might have realised.
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5 · 1Disagree 5AgreeDogs of war require new reskins for their infantry and cavalry and new rules for their pikes. Im not delving into the more complex stuff, because it's either some leonardo fantasy or really units from other races. I'd put them on par with hobgolins, depending on how close or not we want their units to look like imperiaks.
Nagash is whatever he needs to be. I won't try to estimate the work, probably lesser than any other suggestion, though.
Cult of Ulric is basically an empire reskin. I get the appeal but to call them a race aka culture is stretching it. Norse dwarfs are the same.
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3 · Disagree 3Agreebitlot, ( @jamreal18 ):In 3rd edition there weren't really named characters. (There were some, but they were in special scenarios.) The Undead army was mostly skeletons (Warriors, Archers, Crossbowmen, Grim Reapers, Death Riders, Chariots, Stone Throwers), supplemented by Zombies, Ghouls, Mummies, and Carrion-riding Wraiths. The armies were led by Liches, Vampires, Necromancers, and non-magic wielding heroes (with great names like Charnel Warriors, Grave Fiends, Tombterrors, and Corpse Knights).
In 4th edition GW started making Army Books devoted to individual factions. The Undead book was one of them, and it's big character (both physically and in story prominence) was Nagash. It also featured a trio of Von Carsteins Vampire Counts (Vlad, Isabella, and Konrad), some Necromancers (Dieter Helsnicht, Kemmler & Krell), the Tomb King Settra, and the Liche King Arkhan the Black. The roster was mostly the same, adding some minor (ethereal) things and taking away others (bye, Grim Reapers and Crossbow Skeletons).
In 5th edition, rather than updating the Undead as a single faction GW decided to break it up. The designer, Tuomas Pirinen, wrote an article at the time explaining that the massed hordes lacked theme, and as such they were going to focus on only one of the pillars of the undead book: the Vampires of Sylvania. The other two he named as the Mummies of Nehekhara, and the Undead Legions of Nagash.
He noted that focusing just on the Vampire Counts let them bring in other European stereotypes: Dire Wolves, Banshees, Vampire Bats, etc. Those were added to the basic skeleton/zombie/ghoul/ethereal core. Character wise, the book got the Necromancers and Vampires (while adding more of the latter). Pirinen went on to say: "There are other types of Undead, of course, notably the armies of the Tomb Kings of Khemri and the legions of Nagash the Great Necromancer, and we may deal with these in future publications."
In 6th edition VCs were updated a smidge in their new book and the Tomb Kings officially entered the game. The latter were mostly the remaining bits of the 4th edition Undead book given an Egyptian makeover: Mummies and Liches, Chariots and Horsemen, Catapults and Archers, and the Carrion (now sans riders). Plus a handful of new thematic things: Scorpions, Ushabti, Bone Giants, and the Casket of Souls. Settra and the new Khalida were the only characters present.
6th edition also saw the White Dwarf article on the Army of the Lichemaster (aka Army of the Cairns) which effectively mimicked the 4th edition Undead roster. 7th saw the VCs gain more vampire-y monsters.
By 8th edition it seems the thought of making a distinct Undead Legions book was well and truly dead, as Arkhan was added to the Tomb Kings. Honestly, it was hard to see what they would have been, as the Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings effectively split the Undead book in two, not three. There were a couple things hanging about, but not much.
We had mounting descriptions of Nagashizzar (in High Elves and Vampire Counts books), which included Bone Golems and Skeletal Bolt Throwers, so seeds were being planted for Nagash's return. I think we might have gotten something like a (very) turned down version of the Ossiarch Bone Reapers, had a WHFB 9th edition taken place.
But it didn't. The End Times happened instead, and while Nagash returned to the game with a couple new units his Undead Legion turned out to just be everything Undead slapped together. Very disappointing.
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9 · Disagree 9AgreeLike I said, he plays the role of element death kinda, so in the context of warhammer he's either the precursor of undeads, or an amalgation of them. (a bit like leading Elves before their different schisms. ) To really make im into tsomething separate, there would be a need to just merge different visions of the afterlife, and creatures built from nothing but reminiscent of death (his own model is kinda about that) and at this stage, you're not looking at something really thematic, at least in not in the warhammer sense.
If you consider a serie like Heroes of might and magic, there is one undead faction and it amalgamed several undead tropes, from dragon zombies, to gouls, specters, vampires, mummies and in the later edition undead spiders (like the nerubian theme of warcraft) It kinda works because there aren't already undead subfactions present. This is one example, but it's mostly the trope of "one faction is undeads". In WH, Nagash ends into the awkward position of being technically tied to all undeads.
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0 · Disagree Agree*(The locations section starts with a talk about Nehekhara - Nagash is the only person mentioned, his great ritual prominent. After that it has a section on Nagashizzar (longer than Nehekhara's), then the Plain of Bones, Castle Drakenhof, and Moussillon. The history section starts with The Great Necromancer on page 12 and runs to page 19. There starts the next section: The Return of Nagash (which goes until page 23). After that, five pages on The Vampire Counts of Sylvania.)
// They took the originally planned first expansion (Lizardmen, High Elves, Dark Elves) and added the Skaven DLC to make game two.
And they've taken the second planned expansion (monogods) and added Cathay and Kislev to make game three.
So I'd agree that the fact that at one point they wanted to do Chaos Dwarfs as a Campaign Pack (and not a Race Pack) makes it likely that they still do. But there is wiggle room. We definitely know they're coming; we don't 100% know how... just ~95%.
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0 · 3Disagree AgreeWarriors of Chaos were already mostly made to be the villain. They already mostly existed in Warhammer 1. Repackaged second thought for preorder.
Norsca, mostly already existing resources and slim.
Chaos Dwarves have way more to them.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThey could be a full-fledged race-pack later down the road, but they're the big names occupying space between Kislev and Cathay, and it was a huge surprise not to see them in the baseline roster as is.
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0 · 1Disagree AgreeBretonnia was useable in MP and had a reduced map presence and no real AI mechanics that were unique.
But, the point is that the Warriors of Chaos rendering, rigging, texturing, and roster AI for the battles was already done.
Then they realized they needed a preorder and decided to finish the already existing villain. This has also been up front stated in past things.
So no, there wasn't much work for the preorder with the WoC that wasn't already done. It was primarily map mechanics.
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0 · Disagree AgreeNorsca got a bunch of new units. It wasn't all re-skins: Ice trolls, Ice Wolves, Ice Wolf Chariots, Marauder champions(+variant), Fimir (+variant), and Mammoths all had unique animations.
Chaos Dwarfs would be more likely than Nagash, IMO... They can re-use a lot of Dwarf and Greenskin assets, and are a key faction on the game 3 map for a fairly large/central, map area... Hobgoblins are another good option for the same reasons.
The units that would require new rigs for Chaos Dwarfs are K'Daai fireborn, K'daai destroyers, Iron Daemon War Engines, and maybe bull Centaur Renders (they might work with the dragon ogre rig, but have other weapon variants). The units that would need new animations are those + maybe some of the artillery, though artillery animations tend to be pretty simplistic compared to other units.
It's pretty much on par with Norsca really. Ogres would have been a different matter, as everything in the roster would need new rigs/animations.
Dogs of War aren't the best option, as they're based in Tilea. I suspect we won't see them until after Chaos Dwarfs and Ogres, when the combined map is available.
Really, the options that make the most sense are either Chaos Dwarfs or Hobgoblins. I'd lean towards Chaos Dwarfs, as it's a more "official" faction with more material to work off of, and GW is already working with CA on fleshing out Kislev and Cathay. The need to go through GW for designs, approval, etc... would add some extra lag time on work for a Hobgoblin DLC that they just don't have to worry about to the same degree with Chaos Dwarfs. It might actually be more work to implement - either way, the two factions share some units, and there could very easily be a Hobgoblin focused sub-faction for Chaos Dwarfs, and if it is Chaos Dwarfs as the DLC, then some mixed Goblin/Hobgoblin factions could easily fill out the Hobgoblin Khanate regions until the faction gets fleshed out, if that ever happens.
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1 · 6Disagree 1Agree