Since there is no LM rework, help me hash out the WH3 LM final DLC

TheWattman#7460

After starring in 3 DLCs, the Lizardmen have yet to recieve a touch-up on their rather lackluster general mechanics, nor has Nakai been reworked to a more viable state of play. Therefore, the Lizardmen should and must get a rework in WH3 eventually. What that update should contain unit-wise is perhaps somewhat straightforward, but its another matter entirely of which race they should face in that update. Here is the basic outline:



The remaining Lord candidate in the Lizardmen roster is Tetto'eko, even though it was Oxyotl who had the clear lore connection with the eastern parts in Khuresh. But now its Tetto'eko's job to lead the Lizardmen in their last hurrah in the trilogy and face... someone, likely a lord from the Monogods. With him should march Chakax, the great Temple Guard from neighboring Xlanhuapec and thereby completing the list of LM named characters in 8th edition. Now, for the units, even with the coming of the Troglodon and the Coatl with this "update", there are still very much viable units left to be potentially added in. Skink Culchan Riders would bring some fast light/skirmish cavalry to a race that still doesn't have that in its arsenal. Skink Bows, likely with poison arrows, would then add some longer ranged skirmish power, probably 140 to 180 somewhere, to the Lizardmen infantry, depending on the range of the coming Stalkers of course. Alternatively, for the infantry there could be Skink Braves, more high-tier oriented Skink infantry on par with their Saurus cousins. As for the centrepiece, there is only one option left, the Arcanadon from 6th edition, carrying a different variant of the Engine of the Gods which functions as a stone thrower, which would add some much needed firepower to the LM roster when it comes to siege battles. For Lords and Heroes, a Skink Mage Priest, a generic Tetto'eko, would bring back the Lore of Heavens to the lord categories and there could potentially also be some sort of Kroxigor champion, just to have hero-level Kroxigor.

But who would Tetto'eko face? His own lore mainly focuses on battling the Skaven and countering their schemes, but LM-Skaven rivalry was taken care of with Prophet & Warlock. And if the core-rule still applies, then the options for rivalries would either be the Monogods or Cathay, since LM vs Kislev makes absolutely no sense. For Cathay, there are the voyages of Yin-Tuan to draw upon. But most likely are probably the Monogods, but which one of them? Maybe we should look to some of the falls of specific cities in the Great Catastrophe?

What do you think guys? Do you agree with this content and who should the Lizardmen face in WH3?

Prince_Alucard

I don't think that lizardmen will get another dlc, which I'm fine with. Really I think because of that they will get a rework sooner than many would expect. Though it is bizarre that they really, really got nothing so far. I expected at least a bit. Tetto'Eko I think could be flc in game 3 just like Thorek was.


But if he had to face someone? I'd guess either Cathay or one of the monogods for sure. It's rather hard to predict because CA can be rather random with their match ups in cross game DLC, pretty much none of them are signature match ups from the lore aside from the Warden and the Paunch. To the lizardmen all chaos is just as evil, so it didn't really bother me much that they didn't go up against a specific god. Though if it had to be one, with the coatl(had things gone differently) and Tetto especially, Tzeentch would've been a cool matchup I feel. To me that feels like the most natural rival for the lizardmen.

Gamgee

Game 3 dlc and no thunder lizard!? Your reading the stars like some loony skaven fan.

Xenos777

Thunder lizard is needed in game 3 to trample the unholy servants of Chaos with the thicc fury of the Old Ones.

Pr4vda#6038

Seeing the last update with the awesome BM and Dwarfs updates, I think LM could easily get a rework via a FLC and Tetto'eko as the LL with a divination mechanic.

You see, if we get WH3 DLC (like Kislev vs Khorne), CA could keep improving past factions and include them in their new kind of "Vortex campaign".

So yeah, Tetto'eko as FLC + LM and Nakai's horde rework is imo totally possible.

I do not think LM need other units. Culchan raiders seems fun and Chakax interesting, but I will not be mad if they never come tbh.

Tyrant#1234

Legendary Lord = Tetto'eko (Start Pos = Dragon Isles)
Legendary Hero = Chakax (or FLC LL)

Generic Hero = Eternity Warden

Units:
Revered Guardians
Culchan Skink Riders
Arcanadon
Thunder Lizard

That's the dream anyway

NameAlreadyExists#7258

I'm not a fan of lizardmen myself, but giving them a little rework and maybe even another flc lord in game 3 seems ok for me.

That said, I think after being a core race in game two with several dlc and a nearly complete unit roster, there is no need to give them anything else than what I mentioned above.

In my view, there are many other factions that deserve some fancy new stuff during the lifetime of game three instead of lizardmen.

TheWattman#7460

Gamgee said:

Game 3 dlc and no thunder lizard!? Your reading the stars like some loony skaven fan.

Xenos7777 said:

Thunder lizard is needed in game 3 to trample the unholy servants of Chaos with the thicc fury of the Old Ones.

Imo too big to be viable unit. Dread Saurian is already pushing it.

Xenos777

TheWattman said:

Gamgee said:

Game 3 dlc and no thunder lizard!? Your reading the stars like some loony skaven fan.

Xenos7777 said:

Thunder lizard is needed in game 3 to trample the unholy servants of Chaos with the thicc fury of the Old Ones.

Imo too big to be viable unit. Dread Saurian is already pushing it.

nah... the modded Amanar is like two times a Dread Saurian and it works.

Bloodydagger#9716

LM are FLC material going forward like the DE are.

brago90#3911

Personally I don't think lizardmen need a rework, lizardmen already have cool mechanics they just need to be tweaked.

Tehenhauin simply needs his pyramid to give him access to exclusive units (perhaps access to Shotek spawns of different creatures) and Nakai needs his horde and vassal mechanics to work. As for Mazdamundi, Krok-gar, Gor-rok and Tiktakto, making the geomantic web more interactive and useful in the early stages of the game along with making the sacred spawns work as in TT should be enough.

And I didn't mention Oxyotl for the obvious, although his teleportation mechanics and being undetectable when moving around the map (you don't need to ask permission to cross someone else's territory) is quite interesting.

Cortes31#6909

After what happened to Dwarfs this time, I am not sure LM need DLC to get rework.

Blaced

Lizardmen need rework but not new units, thunder lizard only causing unit bloating, besides it's impossible for them to get through the gate

Prince_Alucard

Yeah I think the thunder lizard and archanodon have niches that are filled by the Dread Saurian. Coatl I wanted because it was a pretty unique beast for the lizardmen, and it very much seems so, so happy about that.


Really I would've like culchan riders, but it's not the end of the world for me that they didn't make it.

Maedrethnir#1968

The final LM LP should introduce the Thunder Lizard. It's just too cool to be ignored. And I wouldn't worry about its size and balance. There's always a way to make things work.

Xenos777

Blaced said:

Lizardmen need rework but not new units, thunder lizard only causing unit bloating, besides it's impossible for them to get through the gate

And indeed they should just smash the walls.

Also, I kindly remind you folks that this silly "unit bloating" argument has been used against Lion Chariot ("there is already the Ithilmar one"), Dread Saurian ("it's a big carnosaur and it won't work in sieges"), Rogue Idol ("just use a giant"), Zoats ("don't fit the WE style"), Kharybdiss ("no need to add, it's just an Hydra variant"), Coatl ("lizardmen shouldn't have single-entity flyers") and a bunch of other things. If CA listed to this stuff then we would miss a whole bunch of cool units as of now.

Lazy_captain

I think Lizardmen still has a fair shot in getting a Lord pack in Game 3, Especially against their nemesis Chaos.

So Maybe:

reinvention Troglodytes: Semi monstrous infantry but mainly to give The lizardmen an elite infantry that gives them the ability to blend infantry, with their contrast to temple guards which are focused on defense.

Skink Culchan Riders: fast Light cav that can skirmish.

And reinvention Arcanadon: Maybe make a new Old one tech on its back and make it as an artillery piece, Or make it as a defensive dinosaur that spawn a shield giving missile resist like The starwars gunggan that could support a huge chunk of the army from missiles.

The lizardmen aren't prioritize in game 3, and right fully so, but maybe in 4 plus years they could get a dlc.

Trotrorigolo

LM better get the next rework slot

afverrall#1754

An flc lord and a rework in game 3 I very much doubt there will be anything else.

Forumaccountkroqgar

I don't think lizardmen need another DLC in which they play second to the real protagonist, a rework to geomantic web and substituting blessed spawnings with sacred hosts is enough.

That said, alternatives to the units you've mentioned are:

Snake swarm (since CA doesn't do swarms, it could be a wolf style unit composed of big snakes)

Spawn leaders (the champions of saurus units) it could be a saurus version of aspiring champions, a small number of elite saurus.

Amazon priestess as a hero with the lore of serpent.

And just for fun, lizardmen raiders, because saurus need a long bow on top of their clubs to be really scary! http://www.solegends.com/citrr/1rr11karnacs/index.htm

Commissar_G#7535

I don't know. It's hard for me to have sympathy here. All your interesting units that weren't just Jurassic Park or Saurus clones got nerfed over and over again until they were completely useless and redundant in campaign and none of you said anything about it.

LM have been boring to play since launch.

Now you're stuck with units with less damage output than blind goblins.


You had years to give your feedback on LM, but you didn't show there was need for a change, and didn't show good ideas. Three lordpacks in is two lordpacks too late.


Just saying "LM need a rework" gets you nowhere. What rework? What mechanics? What units? Changed to what? Buffed how? Altered how?

Even this post has no effort put into what the rework should be. It's just complaining that there isn't one. It's just asking for new units. Again. And you're surprised that's all you're getting?

Forumaccountkroqgar

Commissar_G said:

I don't know. It's hard for me to have sympathy here. All your interesting units that weren't just Jurassic Park or Saurus clones got nerfed over and over again until they were completely useless and redundant in campaign and none of you said anything about it.

LM have been boring to play since launch.

Now you're stuck with units with less damage output than blind goblins.


You had years to give your feedback on LM, but you didn't show there was need for a change, and didn't show good ideas. Three lordpacks in is two lordpacks too late.


Just saying "LM need a rework" gets you nowhere. What rework? What mechanics? What units? Changed to what? Buffed how? Altered how?

Even this post has no effort put into what the rework should be. It's just complaining that there isn't one. It's just asking for new units. Again. And you're surprised that's all you're getting?

Yes, it's clear now that CA only reacts to fans complaining over and over like dwarfs. If you want suggestions, here https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/293369/lizardmen-rework-suggestions/p1?new=1

I didn't include unit stats because it's clear they balance with MP in mind, so no point in trying to make units like the ancient sally useful again.

Commissar_G#7535

yukontherun said:

Commissar_G said:

I don't know. It's hard for me to have sympathy here. All your interesting units that weren't just Jurassic Park or Saurus clones got nerfed over and over again until they were completely useless and redundant in campaign and none of you said anything about it.

LM have been boring to play since launch.

Now you're stuck with units with less damage output than blind goblins.


You had years to give your feedback on LM, but you didn't show there was need for a change, and didn't show good ideas. Three lordpacks in is two lordpacks too late.


Just saying "LM need a rework" gets you nowhere. What rework? What mechanics? What units? Changed to what? Buffed how? Altered how?

Even this post has no effort put into what the rework should be. It's just complaining that there isn't one. It's just asking for new units. Again. And you're surprised that's all you're getting?

Yes, it's clear now that CA only reacts to fans complaining over and over like dwarfs. If you want suggestions, here https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/293369/lizardmen-rework-suggestions/p1?new=1

I didn't include unit stats because it's clear they balance with MP in mind, so no point in trying to make units like the ancient sally useful again.

It's not complaining. It's feedback and constructive criticism.

That's a good start. Now do a thread every month on each one of those topics.

fan3982173917524862#7883

Commissar_G said:

I don't know. It's hard for me to have sympathy here. All your interesting units that weren't just Jurassic Park or Saurus clones got nerfed over and over again until they were completely useless and redundant in campaign and none of you said anything about it.

LM have been boring to play since launch.

Now you're stuck with units with less damage output than blind goblins.


You had years to give your feedback on LM, but you didn't show there was need for a change, and didn't show good ideas. Three lordpacks in is two lordpacks too late.


Just saying "LM need a rework" gets you nowhere. What rework? What mechanics? What units? Changed to what? Buffed how? Altered how?

Even this post has no effort put into what the rework should be. It's just complaining that there isn't one. It's just asking for new units. Again. And you're surprised that's all you're getting?

I've been complaining about Lizardmen taking almost 2 years to get their first Lord pack, then proceed to complain about the contents in those and how they get shafted in each and every single one, with no updates to their mechanics. All I've received from other players is calling me entitled and I should wait until the DLC or another update is out before speaking whenever I brought up Lizardmen, look at where that got us. Now they say you got 3 LP and 7 LL, which apparently excuses the low quality LM have got Lizardmen have gotten. And I made a thread about how there is nothing for the Lizardmen in the upcoming update besides their DLC, which got the response that they'll get reworked in the future, at least 2-3 years down the line.

It's an uphill battle trying to get CA to realize that Lizardmen need help when the whole community is also dragging you down saying they don't. It's similar to the Dwarf rework before this announcement, because Dwarfs were clearly mechanically not engaging or fun, but they had received a small update so that made people try and silence people asking for an update, since their roster is fine.

Daruwind

Yeah, LM getting short stick yet again. Not funny CA not funny. Trully nice LP, great content but this is **** me off..

Slann variants, Nakai Horde, Sotek sacrifices, geoweb, blessed spawning....

Trotrorigolo

Commissar_G said:

I don't know. It's hard for me to have sympathy here. All your interesting units that weren't just Jurassic Park or Saurus clones got nerfed over and over again until they were completely useless and redundant in campaign and none of you said anything about it.

LM have been boring to play since launch.

Now you're stuck with units with less damage output than blind goblins.


You had years to give your feedback on LM, but you didn't show there was need for a change, and didn't show good ideas. Three lordpacks in is two lordpacks too late.


Just saying "LM need a rework" gets you nowhere. What rework? What mechanics? What units? Changed to what? Buffed how? Altered how?

Even this post has no effort put into what the rework should be. It's just complaining that there isn't one. It's just asking for new units. Again. And you're surprised that's all you're getting?

I don't know who this guy think he is but he litterally think he is the reason for the DW rework ... in what world are you living buddy ?

btw :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW51NSWr0n8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viiZL5zV-wk

Prince_Alucard

Commissar_G said:

I don't know. It's hard for me to have sympathy here. All your interesting units that weren't just Jurassic Park or Saurus clones got nerfed over and over again until they were completely useless and redundant in campaign and none of you said anything about it.

LM have been boring to play since launch.

Now you're stuck with units with less damage output than blind goblins.


You had years to give your feedback on LM, but you didn't show there was need for a change, and didn't show good ideas. Three lordpacks in is two lordpacks too late.


Just saying "LM need a rework" gets you nowhere. What rework? What mechanics? What units? Changed to what? Buffed how? Altered how?

Even this post has no effort put into what the rework should be. It's just complaining that there isn't one. It's just asking for new units. Again. And you're surprised that's all you're getting?

Well don't get me wrong we DEFINITELY don't need another lord pack. A rework is what's needed. Not sure if the unit strength really has anything to do with it though, that's more so a MP thing. Especially since as long as you're not playing with caps the meta will always be big dinos in campaign. That's more of a general across the game thing.


What the LM need in terms of rework is much more on the world map side of things for the most part. Like the geomantic web, economy, and blessed spawnings. That stuff needs to be reworked.


The idea that those aspects are being overlooks I can certainly see. But the idea that NO ONE hasn't complained about the two DLC lords before? lol Absolutely not, ever since they came out. And not even them being touched upon is highly suspect to me.

Commissar_G#7535

Prince_Alucard said:

Commissar_G said:

I don't know. It's hard for me to have sympathy here. All your interesting units that weren't just Jurassic Park or Saurus clones got nerfed over and over again until they were completely useless and redundant in campaign and none of you said anything about it.

LM have been boring to play since launch.

Now you're stuck with units with less damage output than blind goblins.


You had years to give your feedback on LM, but you didn't show there was need for a change, and didn't show good ideas. Three lordpacks in is two lordpacks too late.


Just saying "LM need a rework" gets you nowhere. What rework? What mechanics? What units? Changed to what? Buffed how? Altered how?

Even this post has no effort put into what the rework should be. It's just complaining that there isn't one. It's just asking for new units. Again. And you're surprised that's all you're getting?

Well don't get me wrong we DEFINITELY don't need another lord pack. A rework is what's needed. Not sure if the unit strength really has anything to do with it though, that's more so a MP thing. Especially since as long as you're not playing with caps the meta will always be big dinos in campaign. That's more of a general across the game thing.


What the LM need in terms of rework is much more on the world map side of things for the most part. Like the geomantic web, economy, and blessed spawnings. That stuff needs to be reworked.


The idea that those aspects are being overlooks I can certainly see. But the idea that NO ONE hasn't complained about the two DLC lords before? lol Absolutely not, ever since they came out. And not even them being touched upon is highly suspect to me.

There is a difference between complaining and a well thought out feedback thread on what you think needs to be changed about said mechanic.

Most are just lizard brain complaints.

I'm not the one you have to convince, go do a write up on soteks mechanics and how it could be better. Make it gain traction.

I fully agree LM need to be changed, I've thought they were the most boring race mechanically since WH:2 launched. But I certainly couldn't get any positive feedback on that cause dinos go brrr and nobody cared as long as they could watch monster mash.

Commissar_G#7535

Trotrorigolo said:

Commissar_G said:

I don't know. It's hard for me to have sympathy here. All your interesting units that weren't just Jurassic Park or Saurus clones got nerfed over and over again until they were completely useless and redundant in campaign and none of you said anything about it.

LM have been boring to play since launch.

Now you're stuck with units with less damage output than blind goblins.


You had years to give your feedback on LM, but you didn't show there was need for a change, and didn't show good ideas. Three lordpacks in is two lordpacks too late.


Just saying "LM need a rework" gets you nowhere. What rework? What mechanics? What units? Changed to what? Buffed how? Altered how?

Even this post has no effort put into what the rework should be. It's just complaining that there isn't one. It's just asking for new units. Again. And you're surprised that's all you're getting?

I don't know who this guy think he is but he litterally think he is the reason for the DW rework ... in what world are you living buddy ?

btw :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW51NSWr0n8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viiZL5zV-wk

Soteks video is only a month old and he calls himself the Lizard fanboi.

Where was this video 2 years ago? He, like the vast majority of the LM fanbase didn't care as long as dinos were going smash and ignored the issues. He would even tell people to stop complaining and that "you haven't seen anything yet about the forge of daith" because he lets himself get overexcited and overhyped.


And no, I'm not "the" reason. But I am "a" reason.

Victuz

Blaced said:

Lizardmen need rework but not new units, thunder lizard only causing unit bloating, besides it's impossible for them to get through the gate

It's not that you can't destroy 2 or 3 sections of the wall to let it pass. You even have more than just one option to do this.

Even better, the Thunder Lizard itself could have the capacity to destroy some sections of the walls, it would make it a more unique monster unit.

Prince_Alucard

Commissar_G said:

There is a difference between complaining and a well thought out feedback thread on what you think needs to be changed about said mechanic.

Most are just lizard brain complaints.

I'm not the one you have to convince, go do a write up on soteks mechanics and how it could be better. Make it gain traction.

I fully agree LM need to be changed, I've thought they were the most boring race mechanically since WH:2 launched. But I certainly couldn't get any positive feedback on that cause dinos go brrr and nobody cared as long as they could watch monster mash.

lol that's the thing though right, there's no reason why it can't be BOTH complaining and feedback. I usually don't even like complaining usually, but it undeniably gets more urgent results.


That's like the thing that dwarf/beastmen fans were the masters of, complaining. lol

Commissar_G said:

I don't know who this guy think he is but he litterally think he is the reason for the DW rework ... in what world are you living buddy ?

btw :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW51NSWr0n8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viiZL5zV-wk

Soteks video is only a month old and he calls himself the Lizard fanboi.

Where was this video 2 years ago? He, like the vast majority of the LM fanbase didn't care as long as dinos were going smash and ignored the issues. He would even tell people to stop complaining and that "you haven't seen anything yet about the forge of daith" because he lets himself get overexcited and overhyped.


And no, I'm not "the" reason. But I am "a" reason.

So is it too much complaining or not enough complaining? Because I don't exactly see your constructive criticism on what they need in particular. It's just "too much dinosaur, dinosaur bad".


Even without dwarf level complaining, you still saw other stuff for the other three races. High Elves got stuff with the greenskins last year, Skaven get changes each one, Dark Elves got a flc with a bunch of changes earlier this year.

Us not complaining early enough not resulting in a full rework? Understandable. The DLC lords? People have always gave criticism to both Tehen and Nakai. Yet there is literally nothing this upcoming update which is more than strange. They usually fix up factions people think are mostly fine, so it's just really strange. Strange or stupid.