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Lore Question: How does Rune smiting in the heat of combat works?

sykallsykall Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 2,113
Hey everyone,
I am realy excited for the new rune magic system for the dawi. They desperatly needed something like this and its great to finally see it.
However it also made me wonder: How does this work exactly? How does the runesmith/lord invocate the effect of a rune on the enemy or an area?

With wizards we know that they channel the winds of magic sourrunding them into a spell. And with runes on weapons its also fairly simple. The magic is bound within the runes and released if the weapon/armour is used. But this is the first crux isn't it? Runes do not exist in an vacuum, but must be inscribed unto some material, as far as I understand. Lets call that a passive effect. But how is the active rune magic working, aka the new lore dawi have now access to? Where the smith just summons the magic of a rune.

One could say, that the runelord has some runes and materials prepared before battle on his anvil, and when he hits them with his, they discharge their magic unto the units sourrunding them. Afterwards the runes may have to recharge a while.
However runesmiths/lords can also activate runes without an anvil of doom.
So how is active rune magic unleashed in combat?

BTW, a second question: Chaos dwarfs are as far as I am aware also able to use rune magic to a extend. Using them for demon binding and such. Should they have their own version? Or should they purley use magic ala Lore of Hashut, Fire, Metal and Death?
Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting

Comments

  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,101
    IIRC, they have runes with them and just whack them really hard. The Anvil merely improves that. Can't remember how, bit it might be runes carved into it.
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,113
    I thought something similar. However runes cannot exist in a vacuum can they? They must be engraved on something. But on foot the smiths/lords do not habe anything but their hammers.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • General_HijaltiGeneral_Hijalti Registered Users Posts: 4,146
    sykall said:

    I thought something similar. However runes cannot exist in a vacuum can they? They must be engraved on something. But on foot the smiths/lords do not habe anything but their hammers.

    They already have the runes with them
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,113

    sykall said:

    I thought something similar. However runes cannot exist in a vacuum can they? They must be engraved on something. But on foot the smiths/lords do not habe anything but their hammers.

    They already have the runes with them
    But on what? As I said in your quote of mine runes cannot exist in a vacuum, right? They must be forged into something as far as I am aware, as the material holds the rune and thus the magic within it. So what do you do if you do not have an anvil with you, where you can place some pieces with these runes? Just pieces of metal you hold in your hand and hit really hard?

    And is there a technical difference between the active runes and the passive ones on object? Aka could a rune smith take any piece of metal with a rune on it to strike it to relase its active magic unto the battlefield? Or does he have to prepare a set of runes for active rune magic, however that may look?
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,718
    I think the runes he’s activating, if I remember correctly, are the ones already engraved onto the anvil itself.

    On TT one of them made the dwarfs cause fear, sad that didn’t make it into TTW
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,113
    edited July 3

    I think the runes he’s activating, if I remember correctly, are the ones already engraved onto the anvil itself.

    On TT one of them made the dwarfs cause fear, sad that didn’t make it into TTW

    Runes have a set of rules. Some are because of dwarfish pride, e.g. that every runecrafted weapon must be unique or as unique as possible.
    Others are more structural. E.g. the rule of three. No tool is allowed to hold more than three runes. More and the material cannot contain the magic and breaks. Even Gromril or other forms of matter. The only exception are ultra-powerful stuff forged by the ancestor gods as far as I am aware. E.g. Ghal Maraz is said to contain 4-5 Runes IIRC.

    Now Anvils of Doom already need the Rune of Sorcery to function. And whilst these things are undoubtibly powerful, I would not compare them to Ghal Maraz. Also it may very well be that the rune of sorcery is a jealous rune. Aka master runes of such potency that other runes do not work.

    Thus I do not think that these runes can be part of the anvil of doom itself. And still the smiths/lords can use active rune magic even when on foot.

    My best current theory is, that rune smiths/lords create special "containers" for lack of a better term, on which the runes in question are inscribed. These containers are then e.g. placed on the anvil of doom and hit to unleash the power within, which will then take a while to recharge.
    Though how that shall work on foot, I do not now. And I do not know whether this is true, as this is just my theory.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • General_HijaltiGeneral_Hijalti Registered Users Posts: 4,146
    sykall said:

    sykall said:

    I thought something similar. However runes cannot exist in a vacuum can they? They must be engraved on something. But on foot the smiths/lords do not habe anything but their hammers.

    They already have the runes with them
    But on what? As I said in your quote of mine runes cannot exist in a vacuum, right? They must be forged into something as far as I am aware, as the material holds the rune and thus the magic within it. So what do you do if you do not have an anvil with you, where you can place some pieces with these runes? Just pieces of metal you hold in your hand and hit really hard?

    And is there a technical difference between the active runes and the passive ones on object? Aka could a rune smith take any piece of metal with a rune on it to strike it to relase its active magic unto the battlefield? Or does he have to prepare a set of runes for active rune magic, however that may look?
    No they are forged probably in a workshop. But when used they are struct with the right force to produce the effect.
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,113

    sykall said:

    sykall said:

    I thought something similar. However runes cannot exist in a vacuum can they? They must be engraved on something. But on foot the smiths/lords do not habe anything but their hammers.

    They already have the runes with them
    But on what? As I said in your quote of mine runes cannot exist in a vacuum, right? They must be forged into something as far as I am aware, as the material holds the rune and thus the magic within it. So what do you do if you do not have an anvil with you, where you can place some pieces with these runes? Just pieces of metal you hold in your hand and hit really hard?

    And is there a technical difference between the active runes and the passive ones on object? Aka could a rune smith take any piece of metal with a rune on it to strike it to relase its active magic unto the battlefield? Or does he have to prepare a set of runes for active rune magic, however that may look?
    No they are forged probably in a workshop. But when used they are struct with the right force to produce the effect.
    Could you ellaborate a bit more what you want to say? No for which of the many questions I asked for example? I do not understand what you intend to say.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 13,632
    Ever play Ultima Underworld? It was rune magic there too.

    You held a series of runes spaced between your fingers and spoke the magic syllables (which, delightfully, you can actually say from their alphabet). The runes flared up and the spell was cast.

    Pretty neat.

    Knowing dwarfs though, they probably just smack the thing against their shield or some enemy's skull.
  • Kebab_manKebab_man Registered Users Posts: 565
    technically speaking a rune smith does not runesmith while he is in battle, his job is to call upon the power of runes he has already made, and to dispel enemy magic, as for what the runes are on, it could range from his hammer to just rings, necklace or even just chunks of metal with the rune on them, however anvils of doom are a little special because they have runes built directly into them and the runelord has to know how to call upon those runes to use them, this distinction is actually why in the MMO rune preists are a class instead of runesmith, as they function identically to them in battle, but just can't do runesmithing
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,113
    Kebab_man said:

    technically speaking a rune smith does not runesmith while he is in battle, his job is to call upon the power of runes he has already made, and to dispel enemy magic, as for what the runes are on, it could range from his hammer to just rings, necklace or even just chunks of metal with the rune on them, however anvils of doom are a little special because they have runes built directly into them and the runelord has to know how to call upon those runes to use them, this distinction is actually why in the MMO rune preists are a class instead of runesmith, as they function identically to them in battle, but just can't do runesmithing

    I talked about smiting not smithing. Aka the rune smith smites the rune (apperantly hitting it with his hammer) to release its magic unto the battlefield.

    So a rune priest can take any object with the rune on it to release its magic? E.g. grab the axe of a dead dawi and activate the rune for a battlefield wide effect? Or must these rune be contained in containments made to release the magic in such an active manner?

    Also all these various runes cannot be included into the anvil of doom, without breaking the rule of three. And one spot is already needed to contain the rune of sorcery to make the anvil work in the first place. So the runes themselves cannot be an actual part of the anvil of doom, if the runelord has access to 5+ rune effects available. The lord must again have some kind of containment that he places on the anvil of doom right?
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,718
    I’m pretty sure the Anvil of Doom is exempt from the rule of three. It’s been a long long time since I’ve glanced at its rules, but I thought it had four different spells it could activate.

    As for standard runesmiths as someone said already they have premade stuff they activate, I liked the description of smacking a hammer against a shield/piece of armor/enemy’s face
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,101
    You know, traditional germanic runes are bone tokens with a single runic letter on them. At least sometimes rune refers to those tokens, not the alphabet.
    I imagine a rune smith's runes are a similar thing: small, probably octagonal gromril tokens the he can smite. I also think runes made for smiting are different from those made for enchantements so smacking someones axe probably won't do much.
    There are however smiting runes on objects, such as those on the anvil and the one on Thorek's hammer.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,966
    Here's my understanding:

    Runes draw on the same Winds of Magic as conventional spellcasting, but in a highly ordered form. Which means that, technically, runesmiths are magic-users, but instead of channelling magic through their own body and soul like most, they channel it through runes. This makes for a form of magic that is safer and more efficient than conventional spellcasting, but also more restricted in what it can do.

    Once forged, runes are self-sustaining - they will continue gathering energy from the relevant wind (normal runes draw from a single wind, Master Runes can draw from several winds reasonably safely, which means that technically Dwarfs are a third race that can use Qhaysh, but in a unique form very different to High Magic) to power themselves as long as sufficient energy is available. There are some items that are possibly Dhar-fuelled runic magic such as the Nemesis Crown - the Dwarfs don't like to talk about them.

    The types of runes that are effectively an enchantment gather energy at the same rate as they use it, so once forged they're basically always on unless the supply of the wind(s) that powers them is cut.

    More powerful effects, though, cannot gather power fast enough to be constantly activated, but instead need time to recharge between uses, and may also need to be directed. Smiting the rune is basically how these runes are activated - for runes with effects that need to be targeted, the runesmith uses the same ability to manipulate magic that they use to forge the rune in the first place in order to designate the target.

    Some of this is direct from sources that go deeper into how magic works in Warhammer such as the Liber Chaotica, some of it is me extrapolating from this based on my general understanding of the magic system, but I'm pretty sure that this is at least close to what Games Workshop has in mind. The key takeaway here is that runesmithing does involve channelling magical energy into the rune (and Master Runes are essentially High Magic in rune form), so dwarf runesmiths are magic-users, whatever they might say, albeit in an unconventional (to everyone else) form. So runesmiting is, ultimately, a magic-user using magic, and probably follows similar rules except that it's much more predictable than regular spellcasting since once forged, runes generally don't make mistakes that lead to miscasts.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 3,806
    sykall said:

    Kebab_man said:

    technically speaking a rune smith does not runesmith while he is in battle, his job is to call upon the power of runes he has already made, and to dispel enemy magic, as for what the runes are on, it could range from his hammer to just rings, necklace or even just chunks of metal with the rune on them, however anvils of doom are a little special because they have runes built directly into them and the runelord has to know how to call upon those runes to use them, this distinction is actually why in the MMO rune preists are a class instead of runesmith, as they function identically to them in battle, but just can't do runesmithing

    I talked about smiting not smithing. Aka the rune smith smites the rune (apperantly hitting it with his hammer) to release its magic unto the battlefield.

    So a rune priest can take any object with the rune on it to release its magic? E.g. grab the axe of a dead dawi and activate the rune for a battlefield wide effect? Or must these rune be contained in containments made to release the magic in such an active manner?

    Also all these various runes cannot be included into the anvil of doom, without breaking the rule of three. And one spot is already needed to contain the rune of sorcery to make the anvil work in the first place. So the runes themselves cannot be an actual part of the anvil of doom, if the runelord has access to 5+ rune effects available. The lord must again have some kind of containment that he places on the anvil of doom right?
    The anvils of doom are the oldest relics of the Dwarf race, said to be created by Grungni himself. Ghal Maraz and the like were forged on anvils of doom, they probably ignore the rules just like the other most powerful rune items.

    In the 8th edition dwarf armybook it seems that runesmiths bring items with them to use runic effects. It is worth noting that on the TT, there were no active "rune spells" without runic items or anvils of doom. So Runesmiths do indeed need items to use their craft. It also says that their anti-magic abilities work simliarily, they bind the enemy magic into items, rendering it harmless.

    Runesmithing itself is a skill that is hard to learn, and not institutionalized like it is for the Empire or High elf magic. Every runesmith chooses and aprentice to teach their specific techniques and methods, and much knowledge has been lost when a runesmith found no fitting apprentice for their craft.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,718
    Draxynnic said:

    Here's my understanding:

    Runes draw on the same Winds of Magic as conventional spellcasting, but in a highly ordered form. Which means that, technically, runesmiths are magic-users, but instead of channelling magic through their own body and soul like most, they channel it through runes. This makes for a form of magic that is safer and more efficient than conventional spellcasting, but also more restricted in what it can do.

    Once forged, runes are self-sustaining - they will continue gathering energy from the relevant wind (normal runes draw from a single wind, Master Runes can draw from several winds reasonably safely, which means that technically Dwarfs are a third race that can use Qhaysh, but in a unique form very different to High Magic) to power themselves as long as sufficient energy is available. There are some items that are possibly Dhar-fuelled runic magic such as the Nemesis Crown - the Dwarfs don't like to talk about them.

    The types of runes that are effectively an enchantment gather energy at the same rate as they use it, so once forged they're basically always on unless the supply of the wind(s) that powers them is cut.

    More powerful effects, though, cannot gather power fast enough to be constantly activated, but instead need time to recharge between uses, and may also need to be directed. Smiting the rune is basically how these runes are activated - for runes with effects that need to be targeted, the runesmith uses the same ability to manipulate magic that they use to forge the rune in the first place in order to designate the target.

    Some of this is direct from sources that go deeper into how magic works in Warhammer such as the Liber Chaotica, some of it is me extrapolating from this based on my general understanding of the magic system, but I'm pretty sure that this is at least close to what Games Workshop has in mind. The key takeaway here is that runesmithing does involve channelling magical energy into the rune (and Master Runes are essentially High Magic in rune form), so dwarf runesmiths are magic-users, whatever they might say, albeit in an unconventional (to everyone else) form. So runesmiting is, ultimately, a magic-user using magic, and probably follows similar rules except that it's much more predictable than regular spellcasting since once forged, runes generally don't make mistakes that lead to miscasts.

    This is a great explanation.
  • sykallsykall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,113
    Thanks @Draxynnic for that detailed explanation. How runes in general work I was aware of, but still it is a very nice and short summary of the process. And the last paragraph may suitably explain how active rune magic is performed.

    What I take of all the contributions is the following for active rune magic:
    - for active rune magic the rune smith must have the runes present. However these runes cannot be put on any equipment (random hammer, pickaxe etc.), but must be engraved on special talismans or discs or else. Small portable devices (as rune smiths can cast their magic the runes offensively without and anvil in TWW), which are created to release their magic unto the battlefield when stroke by a rune smith. Like a battery that is discharged at all at once.
    - Afterwards the rune has to recharge by taking in the magical energies that surround it, before it is ready to be used again.
    - lastly these runes can also be placed on an anvil of doom for greater effects, as the anvil may amplify the effect of the rune disk or lets them recharge much quicker.
    Filling the white spots - 7 made-up factions to enrich the empty parts of the WFB setting
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
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