Hammerers nerf - is there any other way?

eumaies#1128

Hammerers were finally coming into their own as viable units. With +100 gold for plus three MD I can’t imagine taking them now. They aren’t like ironbreakers with real durability Vs some enemies.

They were key Vs high elves but no way an archer pincushion can cost 1200 and be viable.

Is this about vampires? Tomb kings? Can we buff them instead?

Just a real shame to nerf this elite offensive infantry into the ground leaving only ironbreakers for viable elit dwarf inf.

Lotus_Moon#2452

Got no idea why hammeres would get a nerf, fixes nothing, all it does is make them not viable in some match-ups anymore.

Darthplagueis13#4382

eumaies said:

Hammerers we’re finally coming into their own as viable units. With +100 gold for plus three MD I can’t imagine taking them now. They aren’t like ironbreakers with real durability Vs some enemies.

They were key Vs high elves but no way an archer pincushion can cost 1200 and be viable.

Is this about vampires? Tomb kings? Can we buff them instead?

Just a real shame to nerf this elite offensive infantry into the ground leaving only ironbreakers for viable elit dwarf inf.

It's a weird one for sure. Maybe CA thought the rune magic rework warranted a nerf to dwarfen elite infantry. Or maybe there's more to them than just the extra MD, something that has previously gone unnoticed and actually caused them to hit way above their price range.

Totentanz777#2915

I wish CA would give justifications for why they make changes. Maybe they think hammerers would be OP with the new rune magic?

Loupi#8512

Totentanz777 said:

I wish CA would give justifications for why they make changes. Maybe they think hammerers would be OP with the new rune magic?

sometimes in patch notes they do, we will have to wait and see

The_real_FAUST#6885

Just like the random Grombrindal nerf seems so at odds with the reality of gameplay

RawSugar#1229

its a really weird nerf, hammerers were on the curve but certainly not punching above their weight.
with chariots getting their old glory back and dwarves not getting any real counters to them this only adds to some matchups being pretty bad

Modern_Erasmus#3567

Definitely a weird change. Honestly Hammerers seemed like they needed a small buff if anything.

KhorneFlakes

Ca keeps overvaluing elite infy and cav and now even some SEM's.

yst#1879

I think they r trying to upgrade them as they did graveguards.

They were a very good unit at $1100 theres no question to that. So they r now having the same def as longbeard 2h, trying to push hammerers into the swordmasters, executioners $1200 league

How did hammerers fare vs black orks?

Disposable Hero

Gromby nerf I could kind of see just because of pick rate, but it's harder to see where this one came from.

If dwf units needs compensatory nerfs for rune magic and new abilities I wouldn't think hammerers would be first in line. I would have suspected dawi ranged to take a hit in that case, and even among melee units only i they are hardly top 3.

Curious about the reasoning behind this one.

RawSugar#1229

black orks beat them w waargh and are much less vulnerable to ranged, hammerers were fine, offensive allrounders go well with the roster but for their price and unittype they were average even subpar

Bastilean#7242

I get adding more MD. It was weird they had lower MD than Long Beards. They could go with the +3 MD for 50g or give them +6 MD for the full 100g worth.

Some of this probably has to do with the auto-resolve calculator which picks on the weakest defense unit in your army.

I think Eumaies has a point. Even HE elite units would be better off minus 3 MA & 3 MD for 100g cheaper. Elites are arrow magnets, artillery magnets, spell magnets and dwarfs are slow which makes it even worse.

yst#1879

It should be at least +6 for the full $100 really, to have same def as longbeard while NOT having charge def vs large is bad.

At the very least give hammerers that charge def

mightygloin#2446

If anything needed a price nerf after the recent changes, it should've been the skirmishers since they are the main culprit in strong MUs of the Dwarfs way more than the elite infantry which i guess hardly any trouble for anyone. This change further exacerbates that. On top of price, you could even nerf their ammo and add it to melee to achieve more quality than quantity.

This +100 would be actually cool if stat buffs justified the price nerf. 1200 isn't so bad still in a full infantry faction; Swordmasters cost 1250 and PG cost a whoppin 1400.

First thing that comes to mind is LD: they had more LD than Blackguards in TT, but in TW they have 10 less. Besides they are the Kingsguard in the highest LD race. The other possible change could be more HP since they only have 150 more HP than the skinny Blackguards.

yst#1879

Hammerers at $1200 now would need buffs

Only 4 units doesnt have charge def, miners, dwf war 2h, slayers and hammerers.
Made no sense for them to not have charge def now that they r charging $1200 for it.
Ld is also too low. Only 80 ld


Logical improvements would be
+ charge def vs large
+5 ld

RawSugar#1229

mightygloin said:

If anything needed a price nerf after the recent changes, it should've been the skirmishers since they are the main culprit in strong MUs of the Dwarfs way more than the elite infantry which i guess hardly any trouble for anyone.

skirmishers? like the gyros?

mightygloin#2446

RawSugar said:

mightygloin said:

If anything needed a price nerf after the recent changes, it should've been the skirmishers since they are the main culprit in strong MUs of the Dwarfs way more than the elite infantry which i guess hardly any trouble for anyone.

skirmishers? like the gyros?

No ranged infantry, especially the cheaper ones. Gyros could if needed use a stricter cap.

RawSugar#1229

mightygloin said:

RawSugar said:

mightygloin said:

If anything needed a price nerf after the recent changes, it should've been the skirmishers since they are the main culprit in strong MUs of the Dwarfs way more than the elite infantry which i guess hardly any trouble for anyone.

skirmishers? like the gyros?

No ranged infantry, especially the cheaper ones. Gyros could if needed use a stricter cap.

ahh skirmishers would be 360 fire on move units, which dwarves dont have.
Ranged infantry is kinda dwarves thing, they'd need a whole new roster, or serious buffs to other units, if you nerfed those

AWizard_Lizard

RawSugar said:

mightygloin said:

RawSugar said:

mightygloin said:

If anything needed a price nerf after the recent changes, it should've been the skirmishers since they are the main culprit in strong MUs of the Dwarfs way more than the elite infantry which i guess hardly any trouble for anyone.

skirmishers? like the gyros?

No ranged infantry, especially the cheaper ones. Gyros could if needed use a stricter cap.

ahh skirmishers would be 360 fire on move units, which dwarves dont have.
Ranged infantry is kinda dwarves thing, they'd need a whole new roster, or serious buffs to other units, if you nerfed those

I think he means some small nerf, not render them useless.

RawSugar#1229

AWizard_Lizard said:

RawSugar said:

mightygloin said:

RawSugar said:

mightygloin said:

If anything needed a price nerf after the recent changes, it should've been the skirmishers since they are the main culprit in strong MUs of the Dwarfs way more than the elite infantry which i guess hardly any trouble for anyone.

skirmishers? like the gyros?

No ranged infantry, especially the cheaper ones. Gyros could if needed use a stricter cap.

ahh skirmishers would be 360 fire on move units, which dwarves dont have.
Ranged infantry is kinda dwarves thing, they'd need a whole new roster, or serious buffs to other units, if you nerfed those

I think he means some small nerf, not render them useless.

sure but those are the units keeping dwarves in the game, everything else is just ok/good. so if you gave them say a 5% pricenerf you'd need a 10% buff to other unittypes

DaBoyzAreBackInTown#9604

Seems like a coded hint from CA to use new rune magic with Hammerers. I'm guessing that Rune of Speed and Rune of Doom in particular have made them quite scary.

Pre patch the best MA buff Dwarfs have was +9 on Thorgrim or you could do some stuff with Oath of Vengeance or Flash bomb. Now a mapwide MA buff and AOE MA/Speed buff could really change how the unit plays.

Slayer speed + Chance to hit increase of Oath of Vengeance + 100 armour seems like a powerful combo.

Not sure about Ironbreakers, maybe they were just outright overperforming last patch.

eumaies#1128

DaBoyzAreBackInTown said:

Seems like a coded hint from CA to use new rune magic with Hammerers. I'm guessing that Rune of Speed and Rune of Doom in particular have made them quite scary.

Pre patch the best MA buff Dwarfs have was +9 on Thorgrim or you could do some stuff with Oath of Vengeance or Flash bomb. Now a mapwide MA buff and AOE MA/Speed buff could really change how the unit plays.

Slayer speed + Chance to hit increase of Oath of Vengeance + 100 armour seems like a powerful combo.

Not sure about Ironbreakers, maybe they were just outright overperforming last patch.

hammerers are a ton of fun precisely because they synergize with stuff, for sure.

But simple price increases don't make that more likely, they make it more likely i'll settle for something more cost efficient when synergizing.

That said, we haven't seen the patch notes, maybe there's some reason they upped the price.

DaBoyzAreBackInTown#9604

eumaies said:

DaBoyzAreBackInTown said:

Seems like a coded hint from CA to use new rune magic with Hammerers. I'm guessing that Rune of Speed and Rune of Doom in particular have made them quite scary.

Pre patch the best MA buff Dwarfs have was +9 on Thorgrim or you could do some stuff with Oath of Vengeance or Flash bomb. Now a mapwide MA buff and AOE MA/Speed buff could really change how the unit plays.

Slayer speed + Chance to hit increase of Oath of Vengeance + 100 armour seems like a powerful combo.

Not sure about Ironbreakers, maybe they were just outright overperforming last patch.

hammerers are a ton of fun precisely because they synergize with stuff, for sure.

But simple price increases don't make that more likely, they make it more likely i'll settle for something more cost efficient when synergizing.

That said, we haven't seen the patch notes, maybe there's some reason they upped the price.

Yea, need patch notes to get the full picture. A faction going from no magic -> great magic is such a massive balancing change that it is tough to know how it will play out and interact with the rest of the roster.

Darthplagueis13#4382

yst said:

How did hammerers fare vs black orks?

Could go either way. Hammerers have more models and better stats (MA, MD and WS) but Black Orcs have significantly more health (both per model and across the whole unit), slightly more armour, a faster attack intervall, slightly higher CB and they are immune to psych (plus, they got the waaagh)

Back when the first game came out, Hammerers were slightly better than Black Orcs but also a bit more expensive.

In a vacuum I think Hammerers do usually beat Black Orcs, but realistically you typically don't get that vacuum and Black Orcs usually are, if not stronger at least the better unit as they tend to be more survivable (mostly in that they don't lose models as quickly) and fare better against monsters.

However, I've seen a battle with the new patch where a dwarf player used the Peak Gate Guard against HE and got like 2.7k in value. I think it's important to note that Hammerers were very cheap for their statline just because Dawi never could support them properly and now they actually might be able to. Something like Thoreks mapwide MA buff or the Rune of Speed can allow them to hit way above their paygrade, so that's probably where the price increase comes in.

Dracklor#9977

eumaies said:

Hammerers were finally coming into their own as viable units. With +100 gold for plus three MD I can’t imagine taking them now. They aren’t like ironbreakers with real durability Vs some enemies.

They were key Vs high elves but no way an archer pincushion can cost 1200 and be viable.

Is this about vampires? Tomb kings? Can we buff them instead?

Just a real shame to nerf this elite offensive infantry into the ground leaving only ironbreakers for viable elit dwarf inf.

..... at least they got +3MD, maybe its gonna make them better for when I waste time testing 1v1 for units...

Disposable Hero

They probably got something for it we haven't seen yet, nothing else was nerfed and it wouldn't make any sense to start out by nerfing hammerers.