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Thoughts on Chameleon Stalkers ?

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  • Bastilean#7242Bastilean#7242 Registered Users Posts: 2,939
    They would be good against Wood Elves... Norsca. There are a few factions you can bring them and count on getting good targets for them. Just don't fire at the dryads with your two shots!
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,546
    edited July 2021
    I could see them maybe against HE, DE, EM, or SKV for slipping in and taking out the bolt throwers or cannons, but why? Terradons are cheaper and will usually do it better.

    I was hoping a could bring these guys in combination with terradons for a back line assault, but no, you can’t because 360 cap. For these to be worth it at all they need the following changes imo:

    1. Make them not count towards the 360 cap.
    2. Increase their model count to be comparable to other infantry units in the roster. Even saurus have more models than these guys.

    After this they might be worth 675 in certain niche situations
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,598
    Kayosiv said:

    yst said:

    Problematic due to the fact those units never charge most of the time.
    Needs to realise u can do the exact same thing but BETTER with javs.

    I can see their application but definitely not up to that cost regardless, its 675, thats 75 to a saurus.

    Ark is ark now so thats good after 2-3 yrs finally. They seem to fix half of the utterly useless units, so now useless kroak and engine of noobs remains

    I just tested the chameleon stalkers some fights with lothern sea guard, figuring they are also a hybrid shooty/fighty unit of comparable cost. The stalkers, using all their ammo, get the sea guard to about half HP, then soundly defeat them mostly by grinding them down and taking low losses from their decent armor and 20% physical resist plus poison debuff.

    Then I tried a level 9 unit of javelin skinks. Using all their ammo they just about route the sea guard, getting them to 1/3 HP or so. They then go into combat and finish the job rather easily. They take a lot more damage from lother sea guard bowfire than the chameleon stalkers for obvious reasons, but despite being rank 9 and STILL costing less than the chameleons, are fully capable of doing about as well in combat.

    I'm not sure they have a purpose. Javelins are so outrageously good at 3 ammo. If the stalkers had 3+ ammo I might consider them, but at 2, javelin and regular chameleons just do everything better than they do.

    But stalkers have vanguard and stalk, how do you factor those in to your test?
  • littlenuke#9412littlenuke#9412 Registered Users Posts: 855
    They can half health or more longbeards with their shots. At least that's something
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  • DragonbroodlingsDragonbroodlings Registered Users Posts: 334
    One of the issues I've noticed is their random accuracy in actual battles. They tend to hit all over the place, so you end up with random effectiveness. I think they need a huge MA buff so they can actually do what dual weapon infantry normally do. Their explosions do great damage when they hit, if used against the correct target, but I'm still not certain what they are meant for.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    i think the biggest issue is that they affect caps. if they just counted as infantry i could see a use for them in a vanguard army, but giving up my ranged, cham skinks, 360 etcetc for these guys? nah.
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 686
    I agree that them counting towards the 360 cap is a problem for them. I also dont very much enjoy the idea of facing 5 chams + 5 stalkers + oxygen armies.

  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    edited July 2021
    hanen said:

    I agree that them counting towards the 360 cap is a problem for them. I also dont very much enjoy the idea of facing 5 chams + 5 stalkers + oxygen armies.

    i just did a quick test against saurus, saurus beat them soundly. as a combat unit they are overcosted by at least 50 its only if you manage to get value from the vanguard that they might be worth it. 5+5 chameleons wouldnt be an issue for most armies.
  • Modern_Erasmus#3567Modern_Erasmus#3567 Registered Users Posts: 243
    edited July 2021
    Just did a few tests on a flat map vs ai (so in practice stalkers probably overperformed a bit due to AI greenskins having slightly tighter formations than a real player would), using the choose any unit as lord mod to get a clean 1v1 test, and microing to get both charges off before charging in:

    Vs Longbeards: The stalkers do a lot of damage consistently off the charges but once combat begins, their low melee attack and non-ap weapon strength means even half health longbeards trounce them while taking almost no more damage in return. Usually make about 400-450 value back.

    Vs Black Ark Corsairs: Best result for the stalkers, they usually win albeit barely which makes sense for their price range. I think them having stalk is price balanced by the extra micro tax of having to approach, kite back, and then charge in order to not lose value.

    Vs Orc Boyz: Their loose formation means they take inconsistent damage from the blowpipe charges, which can vary results wildly. That said, in every one of my tests the orc boyz won so long as one Waghhh was popped at some point in the fight. In the most extreme example, my stalkers got both charges off for better than usual damage and the AI greenskins failed to countercharge but the stalkers still lost due to how squishy they are and how low their melee damage output is.

    TLDR if you heavily micro to get both charges off then charge they do okay but not great vs units that have tight formations and low health pools, but they under perform heavily against units with loose formations, high health pools, or both. If you get one but not both blowpipe charge off, they are never cost effective. If you get no blowpipe shots off due to their targeting inconsistency, they are basically a 300g skink cohort.

    Edit: Orc Boyz replay attached
  • Bastilean#7242Bastilean#7242 Registered Users Posts: 2,939
    Fix the 360 cap.

    Give them 3 more ammo.

    I think they are the right kind of over powered (just released stuff should be shiny and effectve) after that. CA can nerf them a little next patch if they get too much value this cycle.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,848

    Kayosiv said:

    yst said:

    Problematic due to the fact those units never charge most of the time.
    Needs to realise u can do the exact same thing but BETTER with javs.

    I can see their application but definitely not up to that cost regardless, its 675, thats 75 to a saurus.

    Ark is ark now so thats good after 2-3 yrs finally. They seem to fix half of the utterly useless units, so now useless kroak and engine of noobs remains

    I just tested the chameleon stalkers some fights with lothern sea guard, figuring they are also a hybrid shooty/fighty unit of comparable cost. The stalkers, using all their ammo, get the sea guard to about half HP, then soundly defeat them mostly by grinding them down and taking low losses from their decent armor and 20% physical resist plus poison debuff.

    Then I tried a level 9 unit of javelin skinks. Using all their ammo they just about route the sea guard, getting them to 1/3 HP or so. They then go into combat and finish the job rather easily. They take a lot more damage from lother sea guard bowfire than the chameleon stalkers for obvious reasons, but despite being rank 9 and STILL costing less than the chameleons, are fully capable of doing about as well in combat.

    I'm not sure they have a purpose. Javelins are so outrageously good at 3 ammo. If the stalkers had 3+ ammo I might consider them, but at 2, javelin and regular chameleons just do everything better than they do.

    But stalkers have vanguard and stalk, how do you factor those in to your test?
    Because instead of taking 4-5 volleys of bowfire from the lothern sea guard like the javalin skinks, the stalkers took like a half volley (some fired back after the initial explosions knocked over half the unit). So yes, admittedly the stalk is a big advantage. However in melee combat the two units did comparably. The part where the javelin skinks did 2/3 the HP of the lothern sea guard with their javelins alone was AFTER this bowfire had already killed 11 or so of the 120 models. Before the 3rd javelin was thrown the bowfire had killed probably 10 more. The javelin skinks ranged still did 50% more damage than the stalkers, against a unit with silver shields.

    Stalk's great and the physical resistence + poison + decent defense of the stalkers is neat. It might be good for like, holding off anti-large specialized units for a long time. But if 400 gold javelins do 50% more damage than the 675 stalkers in range, I'm going to take 3 javelins instead of 2 stalkers every time, and have some change to spare. ESPECIALLY if the stalkers continue to take up the chameleon slot (which I guess is fine) and the 360 ranged fire slots (which is stupid as heck).
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  • Modern_Erasmus#3567Modern_Erasmus#3567 Registered Users Posts: 243
    Did some 1v1 tests, microing to ensure all ammo was used before charging, and it seems like they perform about how you’d expect vs targets with tight formations and or low health per model (Eg lose to longbeards and go even with corsairs) but underperform severely vs units with loose formation and or high health per model.

    Most extreme example is they lose consistently to 450 gold orc boyz so long as the latter get at least one Waghhhh at any point in the fight. And if only one or no ammo is used, they get absolutely destroyed by basically all infantry over 400g in cost.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,598

    Did some 1v1 tests, microing to ensure all ammo was used before charging, and it seems like they perform about how you’d expect vs targets with tight formations and or low health per model (Eg lose to longbeards and go even with corsairs) but underperform severely vs units with loose formation and or high health per model.

    Most extreme example is they lose consistently to 450 gold orc boyz so long as the latter get at least one Waghhhh at any point in the fight. And if only one or no ammo is used, they get absolutely destroyed by basically all infantry over 400g in cost.

    yes but I don't think they are meant as a frontline unit. Because then vanguard + stalk is wasted.
  • y4g3r#8736y4g3r#8736 Registered Users Posts: 666
    edited July 2021
    RawSugar said:

    hanen said:

    I agree that them counting towards the 360 cap is a problem for them. I also dont very much enjoy the idea of facing 5 chams + 5 stalkers + oxygen armies.

    i just did a quick test against saurus, saurus beat them soundly. as a combat unit they are overcosted by at least 50 its only if you manage to get value from the vanguard that they might be worth it. 5+5 chameleons wouldnt be an issue for most armies.
    No. 10 units of 48speed, poison, missile and physical resist ranged would be a nightmare for "most" units to deal with. And the have stalk. Remember. That. You can see any of them.

    The only unit that can reliably deal with chameleons is... Oh wait. Light cav will get shredded by poison projectiles unless you match them 1v1 for each chameleons. Heavy cavalry can't catch them (even with the poison need, the combination of 48 speed, auto skirmish, gods forbid the map has any form of forest or jungle, and the buggy way charged interact, no thank you).

    Ranged, in that large number? Good luck. You can't build anything to counter the possibility of 10 units you can't see, can catch and also stand a chance against the Monster mash that lizards can also bring.

    No. No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.
  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,069
    hanen said:

    I agree that them counting towards the 360 cap is a problem for them. I also dont very much enjoy the idea of facing 5 chams + 5 stalkers + oxygen armies.

    This is the issue
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,546
    y4g3r said:

    RawSugar said:

    hanen said:

    I agree that them counting towards the 360 cap is a problem for them. I also dont very much enjoy the idea of facing 5 chams + 5 stalkers + oxygen armies.

    i just did a quick test against saurus, saurus beat them soundly. as a combat unit they are overcosted by at least 50 its only if you manage to get value from the vanguard that they might be worth it. 5+5 chameleons wouldnt be an issue for most armies.
    No. 10 units of 48speed, poison, missile and physical resist ranged would be a nightmare for "most" units to deal with. And the have stalk. Remember. That. You can see any of them.

    The only unit that can reliably deal with chameleons is... Oh wait. Light cav will get shredded by poison projectiles unless you match them 1v1 for each chameleons. Heavy cavalry can't catch them (even with the poison need, the combination of 48 speed, auto skirmish, gods forbid the map has any form of forest or jungle, and the buggy way charged interact, no thank you).

    Ranged, in that large number? Good luck. You can't build anything to counter the possibility of 10 units you can't see, can catch and also stand a chance against the Monster mash that lizards can also bring.

    No. No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.
    Except only 5 of them are ranged units. And you can literally just waste all their ammo by sending some chaff after them
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,975
    edited July 2021

    hanen said:

    I agree that them counting towards the 360 cap is a problem for them. I also dont very much enjoy the idea of facing 5 chams + 5 stalkers + oxygen armies.

    This is the issue
    Moot point, both r chams cap at 5

    No unit in game is this useless and this limiting. Its gonna get severely buffed whether ppl like it or not
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  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 489
    It is understandable that Chameleon stalkers lose 1v1 against most units on their price range as they are paying for stalk, missile resist, speed and vanguard.

    I think they could safely get a +1/+2 MA buff.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,975
    edited July 2021
    Yea nah, thats pure bs. Ungors got the same and shielded. Obviously significantly stronger in melee at $400.

    They r at best $375 compared to nightrunners which have superior melee and superior range. Dont tell me stalk costs $300

    U dont see the difference between waystalker and handmaiden
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  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    edited July 2021
    y4g3r said:

    RawSugar said:

    hanen said:

    I agree that them counting towards the 360 cap is a problem for them. I also dont very much enjoy the idea of facing 5 chams + 5 stalkers + oxygen armies.

    i just did a quick test against saurus, saurus beat them soundly. as a combat unit they are overcosted by at least 50 its only if you manage to get value from the vanguard that they might be worth it. 5+5 chameleons wouldnt be an issue for most armies.
    No. 10 units of 48speed, poison, missile and physical resist ranged would be a nightmare for "most" units to deal with. And the have stalk. Remember. That. You can see any of them.

    The only unit that can reliably deal with chameleons is... Oh wait. Light cav will get shredded by poison projectiles unless you match them 1v1 for each chameleons. Heavy cavalry can't catch them (even with the poison need, the combination of 48 speed, auto skirmish, gods forbid the map has any form of forest or jungle, and the buggy way charged interact, no thank you).

    Ranged, in that large number? Good luck. You can't build anything to counter the possibility of 10 units you can't see, can catch and also stand a chance against the Monster mash that lizards can also bring.

    No. No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.
    they arent missile, thats the whole thing- they are no more missile than miners or ironbreakers are and you better believe it would make those units less useful if they took up a ranged slot - or made it so you could pick fewer quarrellers or thunderers.
    everyone can deal with 5 skirmish and 5 semifast infantry. ranged+infantry beats them as does cavalry....its harder to come up with something that wouldnt be able to beat those...maybe a full artillery army or something silly, but any realistic build should be a fair fight
    Saurus warriors still had 50% or so left after beating them gold for gold, that means even most chaff should have a good chance. chameleon skinks are a pain to deal with but after +50 gold and poison nerf they are much less strong than they used to - and they were never that hard to deal with
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    yst said:

    hanen said:

    I agree that them counting towards the 360 cap is a problem for them. I also dont very much enjoy the idea of facing 5 chams + 5 stalkers + oxygen armies.

    This is the issue
    Moot point, both r chams cap at 5

    No unit in game is this useless and this limiting. Its gonna get severely buffed whether ppl like it or not
    just have them not count against the various caps other than their own and up the missile resist to 30%
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,546
    edited July 2021
    After playing a few games with these units I don’t think these guys are as bad as I thought. They are pretty good at sneaking into the back line in a way that a flank with skink cohorts cannot do. I like them now against DE, SK, VP, and I think they could be good against WE, Brettonia and Empire. Last game against DE they got in and completely destroyed most of the dark shards after most of the infantry engaged in the front line. Their high MD means they stick in the back line very well and will take a long time to get rid of. Hounds an cheap spears will lose to them and cav and sword infantry will take a long time to kill them.

    I still think they’re not really worth 675 though, they could use a cost decrease of -50
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 489

    After playing a few games with these units I don’t think these guys are as bad as I thought. They are pretty good at sneaking into the back line in a way that a flank with skink cohorts cannot do. I like them now against DE, SK, VP, and I think they could be good against WE, Brettonia and Empire. Last game against DE they got in and completely destroyed most of the dark shards after most of the infantry engaged in the front line. Their high MD means they stick in the back line very well and will take a long time to get rid of. Hounds an cheap spears will lose to them and cav and sword infantry will take a long time to kill them.

    I still think they’re not really worth 675 though, they could use a cost decrease of -50

    They are a fun unit to use, i think -25 cost is the deal with them.
  • #427116#427116 Registered Users Posts: 348
    Instead of 360 could they add a feature that's basically "Fires whilst moving" and "240 degree arc" so they can fire in 2/3 of a circle around them but not directly behind them? Would bring a little bit more skill to the control of some units, would not eat up the 360 cap and does not sound like it would be especially broken in any way. At least to me.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,546
    It turns despite all evidence suggesting these would be a meme that they are actually a very fun unit to use and a great addition to the roster. They are a great alternative to terradons for dealing with artillery and missile units, especially since terradons have become a very predictable pick in a lot of matchups. Now skaven, empire, and elf players will have to account for 2 possible back line threats which require different tools to counter.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,352
    a lot of people in this thread keep ignoring they have chamelon stalk and vangaurd in their tests, having used them a bit and play vs them, i do think they have their uses, they very good vs blocking infantry such as Spearmen/EG style units, as well as single targets, they surpassingly demolish foot charecters as well as mosnters (i vanguarded vs 1 with markusand died before i could run away just from range)

    In saying this i do think they are about 25g overcosted, i think +1ma/+2mD is a fair buff to them or alternatively -25g.
  • Pocman#6295Pocman#6295 Registered Users Posts: 5,752
    edited July 2021
    The are ****.


    And i am not talking only about stats, i am talking about their design.


    They are a unit which will make most of their value from their ranged attack... and that ranged attack can't even be targeted. 1800 hellpit abomination or 150 gold skaven slaves? Skaven slaves it is!!


    They are a super micro intensive unit that will rarely pay for themsleves if you micro them perfectly
    Post edited by Pocman#6295 on
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,286
    i am honestly confused by the unit i get them to pay for their cost pretty regularly, yet it just feel weird to use.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,975
    Absolute garbage unit, 360 slot with 2 ammo. Nothing much to add really, u dont get any unit as useless as this one
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  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,546
    edited July 2021
    I do think they should not be a 360 unit but aside from that they are not a bad unit at all
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