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My Take on Thematic Army Compositions - High Elves

GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 429
edited October 2021 in General Discussion
It's time to delve into the thematic army compositions for the High Elf legendary lords. As always, my lists are designed to utilize as much of the High Elf roster as possible while simultaneously assigning thematic units to the lord in question. I do take the "themes" from the game itself first, and then look at the background lore as a close second. The High Elves are in an odd position in that they have a unique generic lord in Alastair that has better ties to three units than any of the LL's do - it bothered me when I went to make these compositions.

1) Tyrion

Tyrion on Malhandhir
Noble on Barded Ithilmar Steed
Loremaster of Hoeth, magic focus
White Lions of Chrace x4*
The Puremane Company*
Archers (Light Armor) x3*
Talons of Tor Caleda*
Silver Helms (Shields) x4
Lion Chariots of Chrace x2*
Flamespyre Phoenix x2

*Tyrion's final build was hammered out with help from PPerun, Blaced, Maedrethnir, and LennoxPoodle. Thank you guys for bolstering my lore knowledge in this matter.

Tyrion, like Malekith, uniquely buffs nothing. Thus, his composition is based off of his location, gameplay, and starting units for the most part. The Loremaster of Hoeth is the most martial caster option available, and I thought that would appeal to Tyrion, though if one of you has a more appropriate caster pick, I would hear you out. I initially put Phoenix Guard with him but after reading several posts, it would seem like while they would work just fine thematically for Tyrion, the White Lions of Chrace don't work well thematically with anyone but him, so I made a swap. The same reasoning went for the Lion Chariots; I initially had Ithilmar Chariots for Tyrion. I also switched the mount for the Noble from a chariot to the Ithimlar Steed. Several responses made me decide to change out the Lothern Sea Guard units that I originally built in the army for Archers (Light Armor), and on a steed, the noble retains some of the anti-large that the Sea Guard had, plus now we're not mixing chariot types. In the Vortex campaign, he starts with a Flamespyre Phoenix, thus he has a couple of those.

2) Teclis

Teclis on Arcane Phoenix
Noble on foot
Loremaster of Hoeth, melee focus
Swordmasters of Hoeth x5
Lothern Sea Guard (Shields) x4*
The Storm Riders*
Frostheart Phoenix x2
Arcane Phoenix
Omen of Asuryan
Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers x3

*Final build with help from PPerun, Maedrethnir, and LennoxPoodle

I know that the phoenix mount will earn some groans, but from a gameplay perspective, he's the only lord in the game with a phoenix mount, so he's the phoenix guy. He still gets a dragon due to being HE nobility, and the Star variety ensures that it feels more powerful than his phoenixes. The Hoeth units are easily justified by his strong association to them. I left the noble on foot to have both anti-large and anti-infantry characters on the ground. At first, Teclis had the Archers (Light Armor), but other forum users pointed out that they are more of a militia unit that fits a bit better with Tyrion. The Lothern Sea Guard are specifically associated with the HE navy and likely would have been present on Teclis' journey from Ulthuan to Lustria.
LennoxPoodle also helpfully pointed out that the bolt throwers are associated with the Sea Guard as well. I already had them with Teclis, but now I have a more loreful reason to do so.

3) Alarielle

Alarielle on Great Eagle
Handmaiden on Elven Steed
Noble on Great Eagle
Spearmen*
Scions of Mathlann*
Dryads x3
Sisters of Avelorn x4
Everqueen's Court Guards
Tiranoc Chariots x2
Tree Kin x3
Treeman x2

*Swapped from Silverin Guard thanks to LennoxPoodle

This composition shouldn't come under much scrutiny, but there are some points to make. Obviously the Handmaiden, Dryads, SoE, Tree Kin, and Treemen are a given. I included the Spearmen in addition to the Dryads for infantry to give some anti-large capability to the frontline while also increasing its missile resistance via the shields. Having a better elf/forest spirit balance in her army is perfectly thematic. The Tiranoc Chariots are in there to utilize more of the roster and to diversify the army. The Noble is on a Great Eagle to support Alarielle in the air, and the Handmaiden is on the Elven Steed rather than the barded variety to maximize speed.

4) Alith Anar

Alith Anar
Noble on foot
Mage (Shadows) on Elven Steed
Rangers x4
The Grey
Shadow-walkers x5
Ellyrian Reaver Archers x3
Heralds of the Wind
Great Eagle x3

The Noble is a placeholder until the Hand of the Shadow Crown is able to be embedded in campaign armies. I think that we can all agree that a Shadows mage is the best fit for Alith Anar. I gave him the Rangers because at 40 speed, they're the fastest infantry the HE have, so they could possible kite enemy infantry while the ranged units do their thing. Apart from that, no other infantry options seemed to fit thematically with Alith Anar, and the Rangers do have Forest Strider in-game. I only included the RoR of the Shadow Warriors because Shadow-walkers are a direct upgrade. Alith Anar actually buffs ranged units, so he gets the best utility out of Ellyrian Reaver Archers, which also happen to fit well with his theme. A Great Eagle is straight up on his faction's banner, so to him the eagles go.

5) Eltharion

Eltharion on Stormwing, melee focus
Mage (High) on Elven Steed
Athel Tamara Faithbearers x3
Sentinels of Asaril x2
Spire Guard of Tor Yvresse x3
The Skyhawks x3
War Lions of Chrace x2
Rahagra's Pride
Knights of Tor Gaval x3
Moon Dragon

Eltharion's build is possibly the hardest to acquire, as the army is almost entirely made up of mistwalker units. I decided on mostly dedicating Eltharion himself to melee and compensating with a caster hero. The only pure melee infantry is the Faithbearers, which are exclusive to Eltharion along with the Sentinels, Spire Guard, and Skyhawks, which are all hybrid infantry. Eltharion's build doesn't have a flank; every unit except for the caster is a decent melee combatant at worst. The War Lions are in there because they came with Eltharion's DLC package and they help fill a gap. I almost put all the Chracian units in Tyrion's army, but the war lions would have intruded on other aspects of his thematic build. The Knights of Tor Gaval have a heavy presence because they are a very unique unit for the High Elves and they should feature prominently. I didn't include any Silverin Guard because the other infantry options are more unique and only recruitable by Eltharion's faction, but the generic lords in his campaign would certainly have them. Lastly, the Moon Dragon is bestowed upon Eltharion's army because it's Batman's favorite dragon.

6) Imrik

Imrik on Minaithnir
Noble on Barded Ithilmar Steed
Mage (Fire) on Sun Dragon
Phoenix Guard x4*
Keepers of the Flame*
Ithilmar Chariots x2*
Dragon Princes x4
The Fireborn
Gordinar, Champion of the Flame
Bruwor, Protector of Life
Lamoureux the Frozen Breath
Shackolot the Calamity
Ymwrath the Eternal

*Several people helped with this one but I think that only Maedrethnir would want to take credit since I mostly went with his point of view.

The doom-stackiest doomstack that I've ever stacked! Imrik buffs Dragon Princes and dragons and has exclusive access to six of the lattter, so his army almost builds itself. I gave him the fire mage to have the dragon mount present. Ironically, when I started this post, I thought that the White Lions of Chrace would be the hardest unit to fit in, but it turns out that it was the most elite infantry the HE have, the Phoenix Guard. Basically, the forum opinion, if not consensus, is that the Phoenix Guard don't truly fit with any of the LL. They could work with Tyrion, but not as well as White Lions. The problem is that Finubar is not in the game, and one of the LL HAS to make use of the elite infantry that has been in since the launch of the game. There's no perfect solution for them, it seems, so please let this one rest lol. I did change out the White Lions Chariots for Ithilmar Chariots per LennoxPoodle's suggestion to avoid units with provincial names outside of Caledor.

Let me know what you think! Should I tweak some inclusions? The Warhammer II races have to have their units spread out more, so I'm taking greater care while building my lists. I really do like to see people's reaction to these, especially if they have constructive input.

Edit Commentary: This has been the most scrutinized of my posts so far, and I am perfectly ok with that. I will always be up-front about the fact that my lore knowledge is far from perfect. Originally, 4/6 of the LL's had dragons in their army, but Imrik has so many that taking them away actually seems to improve the overall roster utilization. Generic lords can have some for campaign flavor, though! There are a few RoRs that I wish to address directly: Talons of Tor Caleda, Omen of Asuryan, Scions of Mathlann, and Keepers of the Flame. Each of those RoRs are in odd positions wherein their base units fit well with the LL I've assigned them to, but their RoRs have more lore-specific associations that may not pair as well with my chosen lord. I want to admit that I am not quite dedicated to the pure lore enough to break apart army compositions for that reason. If the base unit fits, then that's good enough for me to give the RoR over, too. Teclis really shouldn't have any Asuryan units, but he is the Arcane Phoenix guy. The Keepers of the Flame really shouldn't be galivanting off in the Old World, but it'd be a waste of a RoR to park it in a city permanently. It also isn't that useful to have just one of a unit in an army, outside of single entities and heroes. I do have exceptions to this, such as the Mirror Guard for Sigvald in the WoC list, but that's because they are his specific unit. There needs to be an exceptionally strong lore reason to break the base unit away from the RoR, in my opinion. For the most part, a RoR will fit as well or better than the base unit for a given LL; the HE just has an awkward roster for thematic builds.

Thank you once again to the individuals who helped fine-tune this thread, and I hope that you're all more satisfied with the post now. To anyone who has read this far and maintained their reading comprehension: congrats, and thank you for taking the time.

Previous Lists:

Dwarfs https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288070/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-dwarfs
Vampires https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288074/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-vampire-counts
Greenskins https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288285/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-greenskins
Empire https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/289912/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-the-empire
WE https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288448/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-wood-elves
Norsca https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/290569/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-norsca
WoC https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/292243/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-warriors-of-chaos-current
Bretonnia https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/290009/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-bretonnia
Dark Elves https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/293037/my-take-on-thematic-army-compositions-dark-elves
Post edited by GoldfishLord on
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Comments

  • Alexandrian2202Alexandrian2202 Registered Users Posts: 50
    Thanks for writing up this series! Always an enjoyable read especially for the factions I know less about!
  • PPerunPPerun Registered Users Posts: 320
    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,659

    Thanks for writing up this series! Always an enjoyable read especially for the factions I know less about!

    Yep, always an interesting read
  • Alexandrian2202Alexandrian2202 Registered Users Posts: 50
    edited July 2021
    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    OP clearly presents their posts as their own view, gives some justification for their selection, and is open and willing to adjust them when others give clear lore reasons. They also generally look (I believe) to create armies that are thematic but still relatively balanced whilst using as much of the total roster as possible across the lords.

    Additionally please don’t reference what is an actual and sometimes serious medical condition in a way that can exacerbate common misconceptions.

  • AwesomeLionAwesomeLion Member Registered Users Posts: 1,281
    Interesting read. As someone who dislikes doomstacks I like seeing these things.
    I would personally have loved to see an army limitation that said you could only have units up to 20 000 gold in an army for example, or just unit caps, forcing players and AI to diversify the armies in campaign.

    As someone still learning about Warhammer it is cool to see these thematic army suggestions :smiley:
    Total War: Warhammer <3
  • Alexandrian2202Alexandrian2202 Registered Users Posts: 50

    Interesting read. As someone who dislikes doomstacks I like seeing these things.
    I would personally have loved to see an army limitation that said you could only have units up to 20 000 gold in an army for example, or just unit caps, forcing players and AI to diversify the armies in campaign.

    As someone still learning about Warhammer it is cool to see these thematic army suggestions :smiley:

    I know some people don’t like mods but there are several that do exactly what you are talking about- I believe Unit Caps for all has a gold cap per army, you can adjust what it starts at for player and ai, and you get a bit of an increase to the cap with lord level.

    There’s also one called I think Tabletop Unit Caps which ranks units as basic, special etc and you can only have a certain number of the special ones per army.

    Personally it’s something I’d like to see in game as an option you can have if you want it - the above mods are good but don’t tend to alter things like garrisons or quest battles which can spike the difficulty in some situations.
    It’s controversial though and I don’t want to derail this thread by sending it down that route!
  • PPerunPPerun Registered Users Posts: 320

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Additionally please don’t reference what is an actual and sometimes serious medical condition in a way that can exacerbate common misconceptions.

    Ok, I won't, if you step back from the position of self-righteous assumptions. Deal?

  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 429

    Thanks for writing up this series! Always an enjoyable read especially for the factions I know less about!

    You're welcome! I myself am less familiar with the Warhammer II races' lore than I am those from the Old World, so I am always open to change if given good reason.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 429
    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 429

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    OP clearly presents their posts as their own view, gives some justification for their selection, and is open and willing to adjust them when others give clear lore reasons. They also generally look (I believe) to create armies that are thematic but still relatively balanced whilst using as much of the total roster as possible across the lords.

    Additionally please don’t reference what is an actual and sometimes serious medical condition in a way that can exacerbate common misconceptions.

    Thank you for restating my thesis. Maybe I'll copy and paste that into my next post haha.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 429

    Interesting read. As someone who dislikes doomstacks I like seeing these things.
    I would personally have loved to see an army limitation that said you could only have units up to 20 000 gold in an army for example, or just unit caps, forcing players and AI to diversify the armies in campaign.

    As someone still learning about Warhammer it is cool to see these thematic army suggestions :smiley:

    Imrik's composition was below -20k gold! It was by far the most expensive thematic stack that I've built. Thank you for reading! If you haven't tried the TK yet, you'll probably like their gameplay a lot.
  • BlacedBlaced Registered Users Posts: 1,557

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
    Actually Phoenix guard is for Shrine of Asuryan, White Lion Guard is to guard Phoenix King
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 429
    Blaced said:

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
    Actually Phoenix guard is for Shrine of Asuryan, White Lion Guard is to guard Phoenix King
    Well, then I was dead wrong on that. Maybe I should swap the White Lions in Imrik's army with the Phoenix Guard in Tyrion's. That'd make his doomstack even worse, though, and I'm not sure that Imrik has any ties to Phoenix Guard either.
  • BlacedBlaced Registered Users Posts: 1,557

    Blaced said:

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
    Actually Phoenix guard is for Shrine of Asuryan, White Lion Guard is to guard Phoenix King
    Well, then I was dead wrong on that. Maybe I should swap the White Lions in Imrik's army with the Phoenix Guard in Tyrion's. That'd make his doomstack even worse, though, and I'm not sure that Imrik has any ties to Phoenix Guard either.
    It's ok, actually only Phoenix King and he appointed lords can command Phoenix guards, so it's fine
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 429
    Blaced said:

    Blaced said:

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
    Actually Phoenix guard is for Shrine of Asuryan, White Lion Guard is to guard Phoenix King
    Well, then I was dead wrong on that. Maybe I should swap the White Lions in Imrik's army with the Phoenix Guard in Tyrion's. That'd make his doomstack even worse, though, and I'm not sure that Imrik has any ties to Phoenix Guard either.
    It's ok, actually only Phoenix King and he appointed lords can command Phoenix guards, so it's fine
    Whew, ok that's perfect then! I appreciate the information; it's very helpful.
  • JirzikJirzik Registered Users Posts: 376

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
    Put Alastar in your list and let him lead Chracians.

    Tyrion or Teclis could use Scions of Mathalan since they all are from Cothique.

    I tend to make thematic armies as well and few Phoenix Guard for Tyrion are good choice. Until Phoenix king himself make appearance.
  • peabodyestatepeabodyestate Registered Users Posts: 1,532
    Love these threads. Always a good read.
  • PPerunPPerun Registered Users Posts: 320

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
    1 Sure, thats a perspective but Tyrion is a hero of "the people" and he has the upkeep reduction for the cheap units because that's his "theme", as seen by developers. Also, his army gets almost free of upkeep and thats nice. It means that you can have one army more somewhere else or reinforcing Tyrion. However, he's godlike even with spearmen alone, so there's not much need for that.

    2 The thing is the shadow warriors/walkers are much better than reavers. If you have more of them, you have greater firepower and dont need that extra mobility. The shadow soldiers should be the backbone of AAs army. IMO, what synergizes the best with them is either Lotherns (shields, ofc) for the wall to fall back behind or flying single entities to stop and harass the enemy.

    3 IMO, Chrace has nothing to do with Caledor. That one lions units is just a filler. Imrik has powerful boosts for the dragons and dragon princes. Taking anything else to the army is handicapping yourself. Personally, I prefer to have a half stack of Imrik + unique dragons + heroes than putting some units I will have to babysit.

    Sorry, man, if I sound aggressive or sth. No offense. Its just that my idea of thematic armies is following the unique buffs/reductions and choosing units from only two (red line skills) categories. Then I get the most satisfying thematic armies for my purpose. Your ideas is just like different units all over the place. But nvm, have fun any way you can and want. Peace ✌🏻
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 429
    PPerun said:

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
    1 Sure, thats a perspective but Tyrion is a hero of "the people" and he has the upkeep reduction for the cheap units because that's his "theme", as seen by developers. Also, his army gets almost free of upkeep and thats nice. It means that you can have one army more somewhere else or reinforcing Tyrion. However, he's godlike even with spearmen alone, so there's not much need for that.

    2 The thing is the shadow warriors/walkers are much better than reavers. If you have more of them, you have greater firepower and dont need that extra mobility. The shadow soldiers should be the backbone of AAs army. IMO, what synergizes the best with them is either Lotherns (shields, ofc) for the wall to fall back behind or flying single entities to stop and harass the enemy.

    3 IMO, Chrace has nothing to do with Caledor. That one lions units is just a filler. Imrik has powerful boosts for the dragons and dragon princes. Taking anything else to the army is handicapping yourself. Personally, I prefer to have a half stack of Imrik + unique dragons + heroes than putting some units I will have to babysit.

    Sorry, man, if I sound aggressive or sth. No offense. Its just that my idea of thematic armies is following the unique buffs/reductions and choosing units from only two (red line skills) categories. Then I get the most satisfying thematic armies for my purpose. Your ideas is just like different units all over the place. But nvm, have fun any way you can and want. Peace ✌🏻
    I respect your reasons for your builds, absolutely. You're more about min/maxing, which is more ideal for harder difficulties, while I'm more about roster utilization, which in previous posts I've fully admitted may not be ideal for harder campaign settings. My thing is sort of like this: if I don't use rangers with Alith Anar, then I won't ever use them with any LL, and I enjoy trying to use as many units in a roster as possible while still trying to make them feel appropriate on some level.

    Also, I don't really address this ever, but my lists are the eventual builds that I'd have in the campaign. The early and even mid-game builds for the LL's will look different, and I'd certainly use the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has until it was no longer relevant.

    I don't think that you're aggressive; you're just stating a different opinion, albeit bluntly lol. I still find your builds interesting even though they're not what I would pick, and I imagine that you read my posts even though you know that you'll likely disagree because different perspectives can be refreshing in the sense that they either reinforce your own or make you consider something that you previously may not have. If I serve to reinforce, then so be it!
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 429
    Jirzik said:

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
    Put Alastar in your list and let him lead Chracians.

    Tyrion or Teclis could use Scions of Mathalan since they all are from Cothique.

    I tend to make thematic armies as well and few Phoenix Guard for Tyrion are good choice. Until Phoenix king himself make appearance.
    I considered putting him in! I always do have thematic elements outside of the army composition. For example, with Teclis my generic lords will be casters with a melee Loremaster of Hoeth in every army, and I would never war with any human order faction, whereas with Tyrion I wouldn't mind fighting humans if it came to be.
  • GoldfishLordGoldfishLord Registered Users Posts: 429

    Love these threads. Always a good read.

    Thank you!
  • NemoTheElf101NemoTheElf101 Registered Users Posts: 2,591
    I'd maybe throw in a Dragon Prince regiment for Alarielle; aside from looking great in the Avelorn color scheme and giving her shock cavalry, Alarielle is a descendant of Caledor.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,332
    The Fireborn are Imrik's bodyguards. I don't think there is a need to field more than one unit of White Lions, and only for symbolic purposes. Talons of Tor Caleda should join his army, though. Fill the rest with spearmen and archers.
  • SnoopacSnoopac Registered Users Posts: 427
    Real cool list! Always love making loreful armies.
  • MGH1MGH1 Member Registered Users Posts: 264
    PPerun said:

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Additionally please don’t reference what is an actual and sometimes serious medical condition in a way that can exacerbate common misconceptions.

    Ok, I won't, if you step back from the position of self-righteous assumptions. Deal?

    But he is right. OCD is one of those constantly referenced "joke" conditions, when of course it is not.
  • PPerunPPerun Registered Users Posts: 320

    PPerun said:

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Alright.

    1) Honestly, I missed the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has, but I stand by the Phoenix Guard. They're called such because they guard the Phoenix King, correct? Finubar is not in the game, but to my knowledge he rules from Lothern, Tyrion's starting city. Thus, if any lord is going to have Phoenix Guard (one of the best infantry units in the game), then it should be him. The Eataine campaign is among the easiest in TWWII and really doesn't need to lean on upkeep reduction to succeed, especially in singleplayer.

    2) I won't ever throw 19 of the same unit in an army. Not even for Noctilus. In the lore, Alith Anar probably rolls with just shadow-walkers and shadow-warriors, but not an entire army's worth. It'd be a smaller, sneaky band that pursues strikes of opportunity, which isn't really a feature in the game. For an actual army, he'd need some variety beyond just archers. At least he buffs the reavers, unlike any other LL.

    3) CA chose to start Imrik with White Lions of Chrace, and to give us three Chracian units without any Chracian LL. Take that one up with them lol. In general though, if I don't have ranged units in an army, I like to have the army be fast.

    I know that we differ on our thematic approaches but hopefully this clarifies my reasoning.
    1 Sure, thats a perspective but Tyrion is a hero of "the people" and he has the upkeep reduction for the cheap units because that's his "theme", as seen by developers. Also, his army gets almost free of upkeep and thats nice. It means that you can have one army more somewhere else or reinforcing Tyrion. However, he's godlike even with spearmen alone, so there's not much need for that.

    2 The thing is the shadow warriors/walkers are much better than reavers. If you have more of them, you have greater firepower and dont need that extra mobility. The shadow soldiers should be the backbone of AAs army. IMO, what synergizes the best with them is either Lotherns (shields, ofc) for the wall to fall back behind or flying single entities to stop and harass the enemy.

    3 IMO, Chrace has nothing to do with Caledor. That one lions units is just a filler. Imrik has powerful boosts for the dragons and dragon princes. Taking anything else to the army is handicapping yourself. Personally, I prefer to have a half stack of Imrik + unique dragons + heroes than putting some units I will have to babysit.

    Sorry, man, if I sound aggressive or sth. No offense. Its just that my idea of thematic armies is following the unique buffs/reductions and choosing units from only two (red line skills) categories. Then I get the most satisfying thematic armies for my purpose. Your ideas is just like different units all over the place. But nvm, have fun any way you can and want. Peace ✌🏻
    I respect your reasons for your builds, absolutely. You're more about min/maxing, which is more ideal for harder difficulties, while I'm more about roster utilization, which in previous posts I've fully admitted may not be ideal for harder campaign settings. My thing is sort of like this: if I don't use rangers with Alith Anar, then I won't ever use them with any LL, and I enjoy trying to use as many units in a roster as possible while still trying to make them feel appropriate on some level.

    Also, I don't really address this ever, but my lists are the eventual builds that I'd have in the campaign. The early and even mid-game builds for the LL's will look different, and I'd certainly use the upkeep reduction that Tyrion has until it was no longer relevant.

    I don't think that you're aggressive; you're just stating a different opinion, albeit bluntly lol. I still find your builds interesting even though they're not what I would pick, and I imagine that you read my posts even though you know that you'll likely disagree because different perspectives can be refreshing in the sense that they either reinforce your own or make you consider something that you previously may not have. If I serve to reinforce, then so be it!
    Gameplay wise rangers fit much more for Tyrion than AA. Especially that they are rangers just in name. They have little foresty flavor. Just saying

    I am a bit curious: do you use the red skills in your builds? The blue skills?
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,332
    Speaking about Rangers, while they probably exist in every kingdom, Avelorn and Yvresse are most known for using them.
  • PPerunPPerun Registered Users Posts: 320
    MikhaelH said:

    PPerun said:

    PPerun said:

    Looks super random.
    Tyrion with Phoenix Guard? Why? He has huge upkeep reduction for cheap infantry and silver helms. The phoenix guard dont serve any purpose and are expensive while you could have an almost free army for him. Not to mention its such a waste of red skill points.
    Alith and reavers and rangers? Every reaver or ranger means one less shadow walker. That doesn't make sense.
    Imrik with white lions? Why?
    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    Additionally please don’t reference what is an actual and sometimes serious medical condition in a way that can exacerbate common misconceptions.

    Ok, I won't, if you step back from the position of self-righteous assumptions. Deal?

    But he is right. OCD is one of those constantly referenced "joke" conditions, when of course it is not.
    I am not saying he is not. Its just the position from which it has been said bothers me.
    Whoevers preaching, he think he is right but preaching itself is kind of insensitive.
  • Alexandrian2202Alexandrian2202 Registered Users Posts: 50
    edited July 2021
    PPerun said:

    MikhaelH said:

    PPerun said:

    PPerun said:


    You trigger OCD in me with your series

    But he is right. OCD is one of those constantly referenced "joke" conditions, when of course it is not.
    I am not saying he is not. Its just the position from which it has been said bothers me.
    Whoevers preaching, he think he is right but preaching itself is kind of insensitive.

    The position from which it’s said is of someone with an immediate family member with OCD, who has to deal daily with stupid jokes like ‘well at least your house must be clean’, because comments like yours reinforce it in people’s minds as a minor personality quirk instead of a seriously debilitating mental Illness.

    As a result I tend to find these things pretty triggering. Maybe it comes across as preachy but I’d rather that than say nothing.

    I don’t want to say anything further on it as it’s really not relevant to OPs thread so let’s agree to disagree.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,519
    Oh man, High Elf lore means a field day for this type of list building. There's so many units with such a wide host of origins and allegiances. So as usual I'll try to comment on that and to imform on it to the best of my ability.

    So let's start with Tyrion the poster child. And there's a lot going on with him.
    First of all from all the LL he's kind of the representative of the typical princes and nobility, by station but not personality. As Ulthuans finest knight - proven by winning the tournament for the honor of being Allarielle's protector - he's ideal for Silver Helms as he's basically one of their social class. It also means he's the ideal leader for the conventional millitary, which encompasses the citizen militia - mainly spearmen and archers, but technically rangers too (no great fit though) - in addition to those mounted pricks.
    Next he's the chosen champion of both Finnubar the Phoenix King and the aformentioned Everqueen. With Finnubar allocating his personal guard - all the Chrace units basically - you'd naturally find them with his mandated warrior.
    But it doesn't end there, as Tyrion is the Heir of Aenarion - something he mentions once in a while :wink: - chosen of Asuryan. So all Asuryan themed units, which encompasses everything with phoenix in the name fit as well.
    Finally he's boss of Lothern in the game. Which is kinda funny as it is the most cosmopolitan place in all of Ulthuan. Millitarily the city is unique due to the Sea Guard. Those guys serve as both the local militia as well as the High Elf navies troops, running basically all the overseas business. That includes protecting the remaining colonies. Eagle Claws are distinctly Sea Guard btw, although most kingdoms use them.

    Teclis luckily is muuuuch simpler. He's the High Loremaster of the White Tower, which means he presides over all Swordmasters, Mages and Loremasters. All belong to "his" institution. With his outward focus it could also be argued that he'd be a better fit for the Sea Guard than his Brother whilst not having much to do with the main defenders of the Island, militia and Silver Helms.
    Regarding your list, I don't think he really has any special connection with either Dragons or Asuryany stuff either way as Dragons aren't really that connected with Asur nobility outside Caledor. For the most part they are simply their own masters and allies of Ulthuan's Elves.

    I can't say much about Arielle beyond the obvious. The Hand Maidens and Sisters are obviously her personal troops and attendants and the spirits are obviously her special mechanic. Avelorn has a great foresters tradition so Rangers are probably the majority of its troops. The Silverin Guard on the other hand are not a great fit, as they are the defenders of Tor Yvresse. Silver Helms might work though, as every elven noble and their dad would probably die to get a shot at serving her. She actually has some sort of aura enchanting everyone around her.

    Alith is similarly simple, as in the lore he pretty much only leads the shadow warriors (and stalkers, which are their officers) and exists completely outside of the Asur's hierachy and political system of allegiances. Factually he's entirely independent of their society. So yeah, put in whatever works. There might actually be some sympathy between Naggarythe and Elyrion, as they worked together during the Sundering. IIRC Alith was actually rescued by a bunch of Reavers and they live a similar lifestyle to his shadow warriors.

    Now we get to Bruce Way... Eltharion.
    Yvresse is kind of interesting for having a unique martial tradition, that never got any proper representation on the tabletop. Silverin Guard are the guardians of its capital - just a bunch of spearmen with special, really old and magical armor - and Miststalkers are it's rangers - which are bow n' sword rather than dual sword in the lore btw. Ofc, the rest of his unique units are Yvresse specific too.
    Moon Dragons are just medium aged, bit I like your Batman reference.
    I'm not sure about their seafaring traditions. They are a coastal Kingdom but the magical mist and moving Islands make their waters pretty much unavigable iirc. Was Cothique the non-Lothern seafarer province? Anyway all that stuff is better at defending the coastline than naval forces anyway. Except of course super fat Goblins get really lucky that is.

    Lastly we've got the haughty guy from the province of arrogant pricks amongst the most down looking of all races. That characterisation of Imrik should say a lot! Still He actually get's stuff done. It's just that he and his kin don't like the rest of Ulthuan and that's mutual. So don't expect anything with a provincial name that isn't Caledor in his army. Chariots, Shadow Warriors, Reavers, Sea Guard, Sisters, Handmaidens and all the chracian lion stuff are basically out. That leaves mostly Dragons and Dragon Princes as that's what he's all about. The latter are basically Caledors Silver Helms. Back in the day they used to actually ride dragons but those are almost all napping now, as the world has gotten to warm (even WH has that problem!!!). So now they dress up their horses as dragons whilst still being certain of being something better.
    It's kinda hard to build an army around that though. I mean every province has Archers, Spearmen and maybe a few rangers.
    One thing about your list are the White Lions and Chariots. As mentioned earlier those are the Phoenix King's body guard and Imrik (all of Caledor really) isn't on good terms with that office at all.


    I hope that helps and informs!!
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