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Skink Oracle question

ba18070ba18070 Registered Users Posts: 273
edited July 14 in Balancing Discussions
Hello,

So, looking at the Skink Oracle it appears almost to be a character that the kid that one ups you on the school bus (ex. "Oh yeah well my guy has infinity plus one damage") would make up. Every drawback is countered by a fantastic positive.
Tiny guy weak to getting bullied? Put him on a mount that's really fantastic at kiting, will do mega ranged damage and then close in late battle.
Doesnt get one spell book? Cherry picks a fantastic combination of spells from four. Too expensive?
Allows you to take a cheap beatstick general without having to have mazdamundi as a slow leader vulnerable to sniping.
Any plausible weakness in the world? Earthblood. Its almost that simple(yes im hyperbolizing.)
He basically is what Kroak should be (although keep the three deliverances as well.)

The only real drawbacks I can see are: No spell lore passives, no cost reduction for spells and no arcane conduit. That last ones probably the biggest deal of them all.

On one hand I am very pleased to have a character that represents the power of the Lizardmen from lore, being perfection shaped in a grand plan to destroy any challenger and defend the work of the Old Ones, come whatever may in the distant future they were designed to be ready. To have total control over the winds and use them as other races would a hammer and anvil.

On the other hand I see this guy being annoying AF in multiplayer and a whole new, disgusting meta forming around basically trying to challenge the elves for worlds-least-interesting-engagements dominance.
Maybe I'm alarmed for nothing and making a call too soon, and someone who has thoroughly play tested can tell me of some realistic scenarios where its just not good to be this guy?

Ty for reading. Looking forward to your replies.
«13

Comments

  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 588
    edited July 14
    You just need to sit a little bit and think about it. He's got :
    -Great speed, armour and HP pool
    -Great range with huge damage, poison, AP and precise shots (on top of bugged double shots)
    -Decent melee Stats, but wait for next
    -The best spell selection of the whole game by a mile, who are Teclis, Mazda, Morathi or Ariel? : self sustainable with great supports with earth blood, great artillery/character sniping with fireball, chaff/infantry/archers clearing tools that are amongst the best at the moment with FLOCK OF DOOM, Windblast, Harmonic Convergence to further boost its melee.

    On top of synergizing pretty well with Lizardmen cost effective roster.
    I do genuily think it is easily in the top 3 of most OP stuff added into the game.
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,491
    Cracks me up, as if teclics doesnt have flock.

    Cant wait for CA to fix rhis trash trololoracle, stupidly overpriced
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  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,447
    ShevaTsar said:

    You just need to sit a little bit and think about it. He's got :
    -Great speed, armour and HP pool
    -Great range with huge damage, poison, AP and precise shots (on top of bugged double shots)
    -Decent melee Stats, but wait for next
    -The best spell selection of the whole game by a mile, who are Teclis, Mazda, Morathi or Ariel? : self sustainable with great supports with earth blood, great artillery/character sniping with fireball, chaff/infantry/archers clearing tools that are amongst the best at the moment with FLOCK OF DOOM, Windblast, Harmonic Convergence to further boost its melee.

    On top of synergizing pretty well with Lizardmen cost effective roster.
    I do genuily think it is easily in the top 3 of most OP stuff added into the game.

    Really? More than wargor chariot? Both units are bugged atm.

    And really compared to Peclis with his absurd level of resistance stacking? Or Thrott w/ 95 speed, terror, regen, healing, and a rat ogre summon? Heck the whole lore of plague has been OP this whole time and remains that way, I’d argue that’s one of the most OP things in the game but everyone just ignores it now. Or what about Markus Wulfhart who could snipe your lord and caster before they even got close?
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,491
    Beast mage just $350 lol and u can overcast as much as u want, unless someone is stupid enough to think overcasting earth or flock is a great idea on a $2500 piece
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  • ba18070ba18070 Registered Users Posts: 273
    So, how do you propose fixing him?

    I'm not against having a powerful hero with a unique style available to just one faction. Its actually really great and something I'd like to see more of. Just restraint is needed. I just dont want it to become the next rendition of "overpowered patch mascot"
    Like Kaijus. Or Brood Horrors. Or (long list of examples.)

    I think something like boosting his miscast chance would give him a very unique way of balancing out. With lore reasons such as "The erratic, volatile jostling by virtue of his trusty steed makes the precise concentration required for dangerous overcharges of the winds a truly unpredictable thing" (Miscast chance +25%-40% on trog.)
    Taking away his upgraded spells or at least making them very dangerous and situational to use could be the ticket, imo.

    Your opinions, fellows?
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    i really dont understand the hubbub about this unit. its a feral troglodon with LD aura and no rampage for 400 points more , troglodons arent even that powerful and paying an extra 400 points :open_mouth:
  • ba18070ba18070 Registered Users Posts: 273
    RawSugar said:

    i really dont understand the hubbub about this unit. its a feral troglodon with LD aura and no rampage for 400 points more , troglodons arent even that powerful and paying an extra 400 points :open_mouth:

    Ah yes, Alarielle isnt that great its really just that Giant Eagles are so powerful.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,937
    ba18070 said:

    So, how do you propose fixing him?

    I'm not against having a powerful hero with a unique style available to just one faction. Its actually really great and something I'd like to see more of. Just restraint is needed. I just dont want it to become the next rendition of "overpowered patch mascot"
    Like Kaijus. Or Brood Horrors. Or (long list of examples.)

    I think something like boosting his miscast chance would give him a very unique way of balancing out. With lore reasons such as "The erratic, volatile jostling by virtue of his trusty steed makes the precise concentration required for dangerous overcharges of the winds a truly unpredictable thing" (Miscast chance +25%-40% on trog.)
    Taking away his upgraded spells or at least making them very dangerous and situational to use could be the ticket, imo.

    Your opinions, fellows?

    Remove Earthblood, Fireball and Flock of Doom. Replace with Flesh to Stone, Cascading Firecloak and Amber Spear. Or keep Flock of Doom but then revert that idiotic AoE change.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,491
    edited July 15
    ba18070 said:


    Ah yes, Alarielle isnt that great its really just that Giant Eagles are so powerful.

    Yep feel free to find a mage with star of avelorn that rides eagle with tempest.

    Problem is low skill players still cant figure out a skink priest with flock is just $350. And if they think risking miscast on a what $2400 ish is better than on a $350, they can continue to self lie.

    Trololololololoracle r brought now coz every loves a double spit bug

    They r so stupidly overpriced that CA doesnt even dare give them anything beyond common spells.
    They are the ONLY spellcaster in game with 6 common spells representing how weak a spellcaster they are
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  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    ba18070 said:

    RawSugar said:

    i really dont understand the hubbub about this unit. its a feral troglodon with LD aura and no rampage for 400 points more , troglodons arent even that powerful and paying an extra 400 points :open_mouth:

    Ah yes, Alarielle isnt that great its really just that Giant Eagles are so powerful.
    alarielle is more like 150 overcosted vs eagles, if anything her body is a good deal for a caster. She also has cool abilities. oracle you basically pay to NOT have a skink priest body - or slann body for that matter - on your side.
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 588
    More than 2 weeks in after patch, Oracle still top 3 most busted stuff added to the game.
    Let's not forget this unit, it needs the coldfix and the nerf bat as much as the tuskgor chariots.
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  • AsamuAsamu Registered Users Posts: 1,103
    The main problem is probably the double projectile bug for now. I don't think there's a good way to judge what its actual performance until that's fixed. A unit doing twice as much damage as intended with shooting is obviously going to be OP. When the bug gets fixed, I suspect it may be fine. 2500 is a lot to spend on anything. Being able to kite and heal is strong, but you're paying a lot for that, and it provides no boost to magic generation.


    Flock of Doom/all direct damage spells may also be bugged right now, given that it's affecting everything that makes any contact with the circle instead of just units with the center of the unit covered.

    So both its spells and projectiles aren't even working properly. Its current state isn't really a good indicator of balance - of course it's OP right now. Maybe it could still do with a bit of a nerf after, but it's hard to say without seeing its intended performance.
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 588
    edited July 31
    Asamu said:

    The main problem is probably the double projectile bug for now. I don't think there's a good way to judge what its actual performance until that's fixed. A unit doing twice as much damage as intended with shooting is obviously going to be OP. When the bug gets fixed, I suspect it may be fine. 2500 is a lot to spend on anything. Being able to kite and heal is strong, but you're paying a lot for that, and it provides no boost to magic generation.


    Flock of Doom/all direct damage spells may also be bugged right now, given that it's affecting everything that makes any contact with the circle instead of just units with the center of the unit covered.

    So both its spells and projectiles aren't even working properly. Its current state isn't really a good indicator of balance - of course it's OP right now. Maybe it could still do with a bit of a nerf after, but it's hard to say without seeing its intended performance.

    When you see the speed at which it deletes single entities, BOTH large monsters (its intended targets) and infranty sized ones, it's pretty clear that there is much more going on than just the double shot bug.
    Could do with a missile damage nerf and a missile projectile velocity reduced/or accuracy nerf.
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,554
    edited July 31
    Asamu said:

    The main problem is probably the double projectile bug for now. I don't think there's a good way to judge what its actual performance until that's fixed. A unit doing twice as much damage as intended with shooting is obviously going to be OP. When the bug gets fixed, I suspect it may be fine. 2500 is a lot to spend on anything. Being able to kite and heal is strong, but you're paying a lot for that, and it provides no boost to magic generation.


    Flock of Doom/all direct damage spells may also be bugged right now, given that it's affecting everything that makes any contact with the circle instead of just units with the center of the unit covered.

    So both its spells and projectiles aren't even working properly. Its current state isn't really a good indicator of balance - of course it's OP right now. Maybe it could still do with a bit of a nerf after, but it's hard to say without seeing its intended performance.

    i think its also hitting twice per shot so doing 2x intended dmg and with the 2x shot its 4x dmg
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,073

    Asamu said:

    The main problem is probably the double projectile bug for now. I don't think there's a good way to judge what its actual performance until that's fixed. A unit doing twice as much damage as intended with shooting is obviously going to be OP. When the bug gets fixed, I suspect it may be fine. 2500 is a lot to spend on anything. Being able to kite and heal is strong, but you're paying a lot for that, and it provides no boost to magic generation.


    Flock of Doom/all direct damage spells may also be bugged right now, given that it's affecting everything that makes any contact with the circle instead of just units with the center of the unit covered.

    So both its spells and projectiles aren't even working properly. Its current state isn't really a good indicator of balance - of course it's OP right now. Maybe it could still do with a bit of a nerf after, but it's hard to say without seeing its intended performance.

    i think its also hitting twice per shot so doing 2x intended dmg and with the 2x shot its 4x dmg
    no I think it's correct. Ive tested it and it does exactly the amount of damage it says. e.g. vs a giant (no missile resist and 30 armour) it should theoretically do on average 700 damage per shot. In practice it matches almost perfectly (697 damage average over 13 hits).

    So there's no extra damage happening, its just that the damage output on it is so crazy high and happens so fast due to using 2 ammo each shot it looks wrong. vs multi entity units the damage could be higher due to the explosive damage.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 3,372
    The most hilarious thing about the double shot bug is that it almost looks intentional thanks to the rider


    Makes me almost wish CA would keep the bug but halve the damage or something
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 631
    So place your bets folks, did CA just release the unit with DPS that is off the charts and just absurd compared to literally everything else in the game or are they just so incompetent that they didn't test the unit even a few times before releasing it?
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,554
    Loupi_ said:

    Asamu said:

    The main problem is probably the double projectile bug for now. I don't think there's a good way to judge what its actual performance until that's fixed. A unit doing twice as much damage as intended with shooting is obviously going to be OP. When the bug gets fixed, I suspect it may be fine. 2500 is a lot to spend on anything. Being able to kite and heal is strong, but you're paying a lot for that, and it provides no boost to magic generation.


    Flock of Doom/all direct damage spells may also be bugged right now, given that it's affecting everything that makes any contact with the circle instead of just units with the center of the unit covered.

    So both its spells and projectiles aren't even working properly. Its current state isn't really a good indicator of balance - of course it's OP right now. Maybe it could still do with a bit of a nerf after, but it's hard to say without seeing its intended performance.

    i think its also hitting twice per shot so doing 2x intended dmg and with the 2x shot its 4x dmg
    no I think it's correct. Ive tested it and it does exactly the amount of damage it says. e.g. vs a giant (no missile resist and 30 armour) it should theoretically do on average 700 damage per shot. In practice it matches almost perfectly (697 damage average over 13 hits).

    So there's no extra damage happening, its just that the damage output on it is so crazy high and happens so fast due to using 2 ammo each shot it looks wrong. vs multi entity units the damage could be higher due to the explosive damage.
    is that same vs non massive mosnters so vs foot also?
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,073
    edited August 1

    Loupi_ said:

    Asamu said:

    The main problem is probably the double projectile bug for now. I don't think there's a good way to judge what its actual performance until that's fixed. A unit doing twice as much damage as intended with shooting is obviously going to be OP. When the bug gets fixed, I suspect it may be fine. 2500 is a lot to spend on anything. Being able to kite and heal is strong, but you're paying a lot for that, and it provides no boost to magic generation.


    Flock of Doom/all direct damage spells may also be bugged right now, given that it's affecting everything that makes any contact with the circle instead of just units with the center of the unit covered.

    So both its spells and projectiles aren't even working properly. Its current state isn't really a good indicator of balance - of course it's OP right now. Maybe it could still do with a bit of a nerf after, but it's hard to say without seeing its intended performance.

    i think its also hitting twice per shot so doing 2x intended dmg and with the 2x shot its 4x dmg
    no I think it's correct. Ive tested it and it does exactly the amount of damage it says. e.g. vs a giant (no missile resist and 30 armour) it should theoretically do on average 700 damage per shot. In practice it matches almost perfectly (697 damage average over 13 hits).

    So there's no extra damage happening, its just that the damage output on it is so crazy high and happens so fast due to using 2 ammo each shot it looks wrong. vs multi entity units the damage could be higher due to the explosive damage.
    is that same vs non massive mosnters so vs foot also?
    ah ok i see it now, yeah its screwed then. i tried vs foot hellebron, in theory should 490 damage but actually its 720 damage per hit. Im looking at it and it looks like very small characters are being hit twice or more by the explosive damage.




    A missile monster with 150BvL hits harder vs infantry than large lol. Looks like another bug for the list
    Post edited by Loupi_ on
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,554
    edited August 1
    Loupi_ said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Asamu said:

    The main problem is probably the double projectile bug for now. I don't think there's a good way to judge what its actual performance until that's fixed. A unit doing twice as much damage as intended with shooting is obviously going to be OP. When the bug gets fixed, I suspect it may be fine. 2500 is a lot to spend on anything. Being able to kite and heal is strong, but you're paying a lot for that, and it provides no boost to magic generation.


    Flock of Doom/all direct damage spells may also be bugged right now, given that it's affecting everything that makes any contact with the circle instead of just units with the center of the unit covered.

    So both its spells and projectiles aren't even working properly. Its current state isn't really a good indicator of balance - of course it's OP right now. Maybe it could still do with a bit of a nerf after, but it's hard to say without seeing its intended performance.

    i think its also hitting twice per shot so doing 2x intended dmg and with the 2x shot its 4x dmg
    no I think it's correct. Ive tested it and it does exactly the amount of damage it says. e.g. vs a giant (no missile resist and 30 armour) it should theoretically do on average 700 damage per shot. In practice it matches almost perfectly (697 damage average over 13 hits).

    So there's no extra damage happening, its just that the damage output on it is so crazy high and happens so fast due to using 2 ammo each shot it looks wrong. vs multi entity units the damage could be higher due to the explosive damage.
    is that same vs non massive mosnters so vs foot also?
    ah ok i see it now, yeah its screwed then. i tried vs foot hellebron, in theory should 490 damage but actually its 720 damage per hit. Im looking at it and it looks like very small characters are being hit twice or more by the explosive damage.




    A missile monster with 150BvL hits harder vs infantry than large lol. Looks like another bug for the list
    Yep its what i was referring to, i actually seen it in mid air also though and vs horse and peg flying untis, i think what i notices is any target that does not have enough mass to stop the bullet gets hits twice.

    Its why Oracle can kill a foot charecter in 1 hit due to double shot hitting twice each so 4x shot
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,073
    I think its because the troglodon missile can penetrate vs small, so its deals the explosion damage on contact, then passes through and explodes on the ground, dealing the explosion damage again.

    Its a bit like the double hit bug of chariots in a way lol
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,447
    edited August 1
    Interesting so there are actually 2 bugs going on with the Oracle. I agree with Asamu that we should wait until these bugs are fixed before determining how balanced the Oracle really is.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,633
    Asamu said:

    The main problem is probably the double projectile bug for now. I don't think there's a good way to judge what its actual performance until that's fixed. A unit doing twice as much damage as intended with shooting is obviously going to be OP. When the bug gets fixed, I suspect it may be fine. 2500 is a lot to spend on anything. Being able to kite and heal is strong, but you're paying a lot for that, and it provides no boost to magic generation.


    Flock of Doom/all direct damage spells may also be bugged right now, given that it's affecting everything that makes any contact with the circle instead of just units with the center of the unit covered.

    So both its spells and projectiles aren't even working properly. Its current state isn't really a good indicator of balance - of course it's OP right now. Maybe it could still do with a bit of a nerf after, but it's hard to say without seeing its intended performance.

    At least to be fair, it uses up 2 ammo. So the total damage is the same, but its dealt quicker
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,633
    I have had games where the oracle one shotted enemy mages. Like shoots once and the mage is basically shattered
  • RamsoPanzerRamsoPanzer Registered Users Posts: 8
    They just don't test the units before releasing the DLC, it has no other possible explanation. These are not two small bugs that you could overlook.
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 588

    They just don't test the units before releasing the DLC, it has no other possible explanation. These are not two small bugs that you could overlook.

    Other possible explanation though, and the one i prioritize is they just don't care.
    It only takes 5 secs to realize this unit is broken.
    They can just get away with it, game is on death bed.
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,491
    Whoever did the dlc r completely cut off from the rest of the game.

    By the looks of it they r just task with a one of dlc and thats it. Doesnt know squat about balance

    Very sloopy job, spent way too much time on their euro cup, wouldve been a better dlc if uk wasnt in the finals
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  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    im still holding out a bit more but really getting impatient. a month is the limit i set, after that i unorder game 3 and start looking for a new game.
    I havent really followed DLCs etc for very long but isnt this kind of unique? the DLCs i have seen released live there was a slight OPness which was tuned down a few months later...this is just completely broken, obviously so, even. I get that most developers are busy w game 3 but this is way over the top....
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Registered Users Posts: 3,629
    Feral one isn't too much behind either for reference.

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