Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Skink Oracle question

2

Comments

  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    these test are meaningless most of the units have exclusively aoe attacks they do next to nothing vs SE, and when there is a unit w decent ranged damage the test just goes melee which misses the point: troglodon is a short range skirmisher, most of the tests are vs long range artillery. Yes you can beat them in melee but they will be defended, their role is to press you to attack, not to defeat you by themselves.
    You could do the same w shadow warriors; will beat ranged units bad at firing at their unit type in ranged and will beat most ranged units in melee, most of the unit tested against are also really bad....test troglodon vs units like outriders, dark rider xbows, razordons or ancient stegadon, or other skirmishers like chameleon skinks and it doesnt do very well...seriously the only unit tested here you sometimes see played is bone giant...
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,554
    RawSugar said:

    these test are meaningless most of the units have exclusively aoe attacks they do next to nothing vs SE, and when there is a unit w decent ranged damage the test just goes melee which misses the point: troglodon is a short range skirmisher, most of the tests are vs long range artillery. Yes you can beat them in melee but they will be defended, their role is to press you to attack, not to defeat you by themselves.
    You could do the same w shadow warriors; will beat ranged units bad at firing at their unit type in ranged and will beat most ranged units in melee, most of the unit tested against are also really bad....test troglodon vs units like outriders, dark rider xbows, razordons or ancient stegadon, or other skirmishers like chameleon skinks and it doesnt do very well...seriously the only unit tested here you sometimes see played is bone giant...

    Why you shooting tragladon at outriders? use chamelons for that, tragladons murder single targets, its also weird how it does a lot of dmg to units.

  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    then that still leaves ancient stegadon as an obvious comparison, and if no 1:1 comparison can be found them you need workarounds like measuring DPS pr gold vs various targets, troglodon still doesnt impress and isnt better at killing SE than those units, far weaker in fact. i havent really observed the oracle double shot bug, that would defo need fixing , but troglodon, without bugs is a decent but in no way OP unit.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,554
    RawSugar said:

    then that still leaves ancient stegadon as an obvious comparison, and if no 1:1 comparison can be found them you need workarounds like measuring DPS pr gold vs various targets, troglodon still doesnt impress and isnt better at killing SE than those units, far weaker in fact. i havent really observed the oracle double shot bug, that would defo need fixing , but troglodon, without bugs is a decent but in no way OP unit.

    Have you seen their speed? you're doing such silly comparisons to try prove its not OP.

    You havent observed oracle double hit bug....go in a game shoot anything...DONE lol

    Without bugs the dmg on tragladon is still too high.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349

    RawSugar said:

    then that still leaves ancient stegadon as an obvious comparison, and if no 1:1 comparison can be found them you need workarounds like measuring DPS pr gold vs various targets, troglodon still doesnt impress and isnt better at killing SE than those units, far weaker in fact. i havent really observed the oracle double shot bug, that would defo need fixing , but troglodon, without bugs is a decent but in no way OP unit.

    Have you seen their speed? you're doing such silly comparisons to try prove its not OP.

    You havent observed oracle double hit bug....go in a game shoot anything...DONE lol

    Without bugs the dmg on tragladon is still too high.
    thats why if were talking ranged damage/skirmish abilities the best comparison is those 3 units that havve better speed and better DPS pr gold. you can also compare its fighting power by comparing it to other fast units with its ranged turned off. What you find is it paid about 50% on both fronts to get both decent melee and decent ranged. Same as móst other hybrids which tbh is too much

    Im playing older versions, cant be bothered to play a broken game.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,554
    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    then that still leaves ancient stegadon as an obvious comparison, and if no 1:1 comparison can be found them you need workarounds like measuring DPS pr gold vs various targets, troglodon still doesnt impress and isnt better at killing SE than those units, far weaker in fact. i havent really observed the oracle double shot bug, that would defo need fixing , but troglodon, without bugs is a decent but in no way OP unit.

    Have you seen their speed? you're doing such silly comparisons to try prove its not OP.

    You havent observed oracle double hit bug....go in a game shoot anything...DONE lol

    Without bugs the dmg on tragladon is still too high.
    thats why if were talking ranged damage/skirmish abilities the best comparison is those 3 units that havve better speed and better DPS pr gold. you can also compare its fighting power by comparing it to other fast units with its ranged turned off. What you find is it paid about 50% on both fronts to get both decent melee and decent ranged. Same as móst other hybrids which tbh is too much

    Im playing older versions, cant be bothered to play a broken game.
    So you haven't even used it regularly and comment its not broken...yeah ok i suggest actually using something before you comment on its balance.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,893

    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    then that still leaves ancient stegadon as an obvious comparison, and if no 1:1 comparison can be found them you need workarounds like measuring DPS pr gold vs various targets, troglodon still doesnt impress and isnt better at killing SE than those units, far weaker in fact. i havent really observed the oracle double shot bug, that would defo need fixing , but troglodon, without bugs is a decent but in no way OP unit.

    Have you seen their speed? you're doing such silly comparisons to try prove its not OP.

    You havent observed oracle double hit bug....go in a game shoot anything...DONE lol

    Without bugs the dmg on tragladon is still too high.
    thats why if were talking ranged damage/skirmish abilities the best comparison is those 3 units that havve better speed and better DPS pr gold. you can also compare its fighting power by comparing it to other fast units with its ranged turned off. What you find is it paid about 50% on both fronts to get both decent melee and decent ranged. Same as móst other hybrids which tbh is too much

    Im playing older versions, cant be bothered to play a broken game.
    So you haven't even used it regularly and comment its not broken...yeah ok i suggest actually using something before you comment on its balance.
    Maybe it has been mathematically proven over and over again to be not op and you're a liar?
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349

    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    then that still leaves ancient stegadon as an obvious comparison, and if no 1:1 comparison can be found them you need workarounds like measuring DPS pr gold vs various targets, troglodon still doesnt impress and isnt better at killing SE than those units, far weaker in fact. i havent really observed the oracle double shot bug, that would defo need fixing , but troglodon, without bugs is a decent but in no way OP unit.

    Have you seen their speed? you're doing such silly comparisons to try prove its not OP.

    You havent observed oracle double hit bug....go in a game shoot anything...DONE lol

    Without bugs the dmg on tragladon is still too high.
    thats why if were talking ranged damage/skirmish abilities the best comparison is those 3 units that havve better speed and better DPS pr gold. you can also compare its fighting power by comparing it to other fast units with its ranged turned off. What you find is it paid about 50% on both fronts to get both decent melee and decent ranged. Same as móst other hybrids which tbh is too much

    Im playing older versions, cant be bothered to play a broken game.
    So you haven't even used it regularly and comment its not broken...yeah ok i suggest actually using something before you comment on its balance.
    if dark elf got a unit that was very similar to saurus warriors i wouldnt need to test it to know how it played....I've used it and played against it. its decent.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,554

    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    then that still leaves ancient stegadon as an obvious comparison, and if no 1:1 comparison can be found them you need workarounds like measuring DPS pr gold vs various targets, troglodon still doesnt impress and isnt better at killing SE than those units, far weaker in fact. i havent really observed the oracle double shot bug, that would defo need fixing , but troglodon, without bugs is a decent but in no way OP unit.

    Have you seen their speed? you're doing such silly comparisons to try prove its not OP.

    You havent observed oracle double hit bug....go in a game shoot anything...DONE lol

    Without bugs the dmg on tragladon is still too high.
    thats why if were talking ranged damage/skirmish abilities the best comparison is those 3 units that havve better speed and better DPS pr gold. you can also compare its fighting power by comparing it to other fast units with its ranged turned off. What you find is it paid about 50% on both fronts to get both decent melee and decent ranged. Same as móst other hybrids which tbh is too much

    Im playing older versions, cant be bothered to play a broken game.
    So you haven't even used it regularly and comment its not broken...yeah ok i suggest actually using something before you comment on its balance.
    Maybe it has been mathematically proven over and over again to be not op and you're a liar?
    ahh yes...actually if Suga wants a unit that is similar in comparison than he should compare it to Orion or medusa.

    Either way mathematically its doing way better in games than the units he compares it to...perhaps he should try using it or playing agaisnt it before he coments on balance of said unit.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    LOL so i tried it and yeah that is something^^ at least it also seems to use amo at double rate which actually does a lot to balance it:) oracle probably undercosted by a few hundred with the bug and overcosted by a few hundred without it. troglodon is fine, might be tweaked a lil up or down but its still just whelming.
  • Legi0nLegi0n Registered Users Posts: 18
    edited August 2
    For all of you who think that oracle is not broken (or troglodon for that sake)

    1. One volley into sternsmen. Thats 22 kills





    2. Two volleys into sigvald



    3. Three volleys into Volkmar



    But its not so bad right? So just for 6 WoM lets make it worse. Just to make clear what this means -> once u are in a range, you gonna kill volkmar before he turns around and gets away.


  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 588
    Legi0n said:

    For all of you who think that oracle is not broken (or troglodon for that sake)

    1. One volley into sternsmen. Thats 22 kills





    2. Two volleys into sigvald



    3. Three volleys into Volkmar



    But its not so bad right? So just for 6 WoM lets make it worse. Just to make clear what this means -> once u are in a range, you gonna kill volkmar before he turns around and gets away.


    No one thinks it isn't broken. Many like their crutches and don't want them to be taken away.
    Which is weird, because even without this unit LZM still has a lot of OP stuff, being Oxyotl, Terradons, Ancient Salamender , Terradons or Cham skinks.
    Welcome to Cathay - the very ancient, super-duper, hyper, fantastic, incredible, majestic, wonderful, sexy, mighty empire, the greatest of all livings.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    i mean its defo OP w the bug, but its still a 2K ranged unit. 2K jezzails will break those guys in roughly the same time. 2K outriders wont need much longer either. It needs at least a 250 nerf with the bug, but its more or less within what you might expect from afresh DLC. dwarven ranged will still break it easily fx. I can see how double ranged damage woud cause problems for nonranged factions though
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,554
    RawSugar said:

    i mean its defo OP w the bug, but its still a 2K ranged unit. 2K jezzails will break those guys in roughly the same time. 2K outriders wont need much longer either. It needs at least a 250 nerf with the bug, but its more or less within what you might expect from afresh DLC. dwarven ranged will still break it easily fx. I can see how double ranged damage woud cause problems for nonranged factions though

    With bug its broken, without bug its OP.

    All the bug does is make oracle 2x shot but use ammo and oracle and tragladon 2x hit infantry charecters per hit.

    The changes to it i would suggest are.

    Fix Bugs
    Reduce ranged dmg by 20% for both the dmg and the explosion

    Potentially give it +2ammo
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    edited August 2

    RawSugar said:

    i mean its defo OP w the bug, but its still a 2K ranged unit. 2K jezzails will break those guys in roughly the same time. 2K outriders wont need much longer either. It needs at least a 250 nerf with the bug, but its more or less within what you might expect from afresh DLC. dwarven ranged will still break it easily fx. I can see how double ranged damage woud cause problems for nonranged factions though

    With bug its broken, without bug its OP.

    All the bug does is make oracle 2x shot but use ammo and oracle and tragladon 2x hit infantry charecters per hit.

    The changes to it i would suggest are.

    Fix Bugs
    Reduce ranged dmg by 20% for both the dmg and the explosion

    Potentially give it +2ammo
    ye that would work as a hot fix, but i think long term it would be better to have it shoot just the one shot. even at double output it still loses to ranged w just 2,5 hp pr gold, but against something like chaos it must be absolute hell to deal with
    even after fix i can also see a potential issue w LM kite builds, if that becomes an issue it should maybe count against the 360 cap.
    I guess my preferred hotfix would be half damage double ammo, then they dont need to change anything else and it will work as intended^^
    Its good that it empties ammo so it cant accrue insane value but it still breaks the pacing of the game, you're supposed to have time to react, to chase skirmishers or deal damage to rest of army before they run out of ammo and have earned value. even at -20% *2 they still do much too much DPS.
  • Legi0nLegi0n Registered Users Posts: 18
    edited August 2
    "Cant gain insane values". Literall every game I had with oracle in mp, it got 3+k value. 4,5k value was usual.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    edited August 2
    Legi0n said:

    "Cant gain insane values". Literall every game I had with oracle in mp, it got 3+k value. 4,5k value was usual.

    thats including the 500-1000 value from magic. even at 3K damage value its barely earning its keep if its your main caster.

    Even against star dragons which is just about the best target it can get other than maybe some mounted lords it does 2700 damage value before runing out of ammo. it does so much too quickly and that should be fixed, but imagine if it spent ammo normally while doing double ranged damage...
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 441

    Feral one isn't too much behind either for reference.

    Those results seem quite reasonable from my point of view. Makes me think that most people that claim troglodon is OP are just using skink oracle as reference...
    I still think that it may need a minor nerf, like -2 ammo, but it doesnt seem troglodons are realy that umbalanced. Just fix skink oracle and infantry getting damaged twice.
  • SephlockSephlock Registered Users Posts: 2,818
    So as to avoid an Ancient Salamander 2.0 situation, I propose the perfect solution:

    Change the tooltip for the Troglodon to read "double shot".

    That's it.

    Problem solved forever.

    Oh, and make the Oracle and Feral Troglodon available earlier in the campaign, or just undo the growth nerf. Or both.

  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    troglodons dont have the bug, they are still somewhat meh. oracle will be overcosted when fixed, but are undercosted now by 250, maybe more
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,937
    Sephlock said:

    So as to avoid an Ancient Salamander 2.0 situation, I propose the perfect solution:

    Change the tooltip for the Troglodon to read "double shot".

    That's it.

    Problem solved forever.

    Oh, and make the Oracle and Feral Troglodon available earlier in the campaign, or just undo the growth nerf. Or both.

    Nope, nerf it until it actually matches its price point and change its spell loadout while you're at it. Healing needs to be removed.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,447
    RawSugar said:

    im still holding out a bit more but really getting impatient. a month is the limit i set, after that i unorder game 3 and start looking for a new game.
    I havent really followed DLCs etc for very long but isnt this kind of unique? the DLCs i have seen released live there was a slight OPness which was tuned down a few months later...this is just completely broken, obviously so, even. I get that most developers are busy w game 3 but this is way over the top....

    I don’t think this dlc is actually that different from the other lol except maybe that the hotfix is taking too long. Remember when doom flayers first came out? Remember when VP were so OP you could just bring Luther, spam hand gunners and win the game afk? Remember when Markus Wolfhardt came out empire could just kill the opponents lord and caster in the first 1 minute of the game? Remember Thrott when he first came out? I don’t think this dlc really stands out at all, except for the aoe bug that is an example of something that was working fine and is now broken.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349

    RawSugar said:

    im still holding out a bit more but really getting impatient. a month is the limit i set, after that i unorder game 3 and start looking for a new game.
    I havent really followed DLCs etc for very long but isnt this kind of unique? the DLCs i have seen released live there was a slight OPness which was tuned down a few months later...this is just completely broken, obviously so, even. I get that most developers are busy w game 3 but this is way over the top....

    I don’t think this dlc is actually that different from the other lol except maybe that the hotfix is taking too long. Remember when doom flayers first came out? Remember when VP were so OP you could just bring Luther, spam hand gunners and win the game afk? Remember when Markus Wolfhardt came out empire could just kill the opponents lord and caster in the first 1 minute of the game? Remember Thrott when he first came out? I don’t think this dlc really stands out at all, except for the aoe bug that is an example of something that was working fine and is now broken.
    no i only joined MP and started buying new DLCs about 20 months ago. my reference point is basically twisted and twilight+warden and the paunch which was a few units getting a 10% nerf after a while. I've never seen anything like this and its baffling it can even happen. But i guess good to know its not unheard of, gives hope a hotfix will come eventually
  • SephlockSephlock Registered Users Posts: 2,818
    @Vanilla_Gorilla It's happening right before our eyes yet again.

    Sephlock said:

    So as to avoid an Ancient Salamander 2.0 situation, I propose the perfect solution:

    Change the tooltip for the Troglodon to read "double shot".

    That's it.

    Problem solved forever.

    Oh, and make the Oracle and Feral Troglodon available earlier in the campaign, or just undo the growth nerf. Or both.

    Nope, nerf it until it actually matches its price point and change its spell loadout while you're at it. Healing needs to be removed.
    In that case, DEFINITELY drop the Oracle down to tier 2 or 3, and the Feral to to tier 2-4.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,447
    Sephlock said:

    @Vanilla_Gorilla It's happening right before our eyes yet again.

    Sephlock said:

    So as to avoid an Ancient Salamander 2.0 situation, I propose the perfect solution:

    Change the tooltip for the Troglodon to read "double shot".

    That's it.

    Problem solved forever.

    Oh, and make the Oracle and Feral Troglodon available earlier in the campaign, or just undo the growth nerf. Or both.

    Nope, nerf it until it actually matches its price point and change its spell loadout while you're at it. Healing needs to be removed.
    In that case, DEFINITELY drop the Oracle down to tier 2 or 3, and the Feral to to tier 2-4.
    I don’t think what you fear will come to pass. The double shot will be removed but that is a bug it is not the way the unit was intended to work. You might also see a small damage nerf to the range attack but it’s unlikely to be anything to ruin the unit. I don’t think the earth blood is going anywhere, the spell load out will remain the same
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 673
    edited August 10
    I think even after bug is fixed it will still be good mobility with fireball is a pretty amazing budget damage spell. While still having earthblood to heal and flock of doom if you’re expecting blob fights.

    I don’t play LM really all that much outside ffa but troglodon oracle makes it really tempting. Not having to bring mazda all the time for utility seems nice.

    I actually would be more curious if there’s much of a reason to use feral version over oracle mount.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,349


    I actually would be more curious if there’s much of a reason to use feral version over oracle mount.

    paying 450 to lose rampage? nice spells and all buts you pay a lot for everything it does
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,554
    RawSugar said:


    I actually would be more curious if there’s much of a reason to use feral version over oracle mount.

    paying 450 to lose rampage? nice spells and all buts you pay a lot for everything it does
    cold blooded also
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,491
    edited August 10

    cold blooded also

    Cold blood is just an outright pathetic design, entire liz army are cold blood. All liz unit should have cold bood linked to hp or whatever like martial.

    Likely the main reason why this army is so stupidly weak and overpriced.

    Chokeful of garbage unit, useless red skinks, stupidly overpriced nakai, kroak the MOST OVERPRICED character unit in game, dull saurian the WORST monster ror in game, garbae trololololdon, lol the list r endless
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 631
    yst said:

    cold blooded also

    Cold blood is just an outright pathetic design, entire liz army are cold blood. All liz unit should have cold bood linked to hp or whatever like martial.

    Likely the main reason why this army is so stupidly weak and overpriced.

    Chokeful of garbage unit, useless red skinks, stupidly overpriced nakai, kroak the MOST OVERPRICED character unit in game, dull saurian the WORST monster ror in game, garbae trololololdon, lol the list r endless
    Normal cold blood is fine, it's just the aoe one which sucks.
Sign In or Register to comment.