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Infantry counter-charging Cavalry gets 3 or 4 times more attacks than they should.

blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 936
edited August 2022 in Warhammer Battle Feedback
As milkandcookies draws attention to here:



There are now lot of damage multiplying bugs in the game, I hope they are hotfixed. Assuming that game 3 doesn't get a "Mortal Empires" at launch, these bugs could bury multiplayer.
Post edited by CA_Will#2514 on
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  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,518
    edited July 2021
    elite cav need some help for sure.

    I'm unclear though if bestigors (for example) charging cav do extra damage relative to bestigors charging infantry. Would be curious for someone to say if they've found a good way of testing that. Seems relevant for understanding how they might best help cav.

  • Modern_Erasmus#3567Modern_Erasmus#3567 Registered Users Posts: 243
    Fixing Cav is 100% the single most important change CA needs to make. Cav being bad as a category and ranged being so strong combine to make the whole metagame a boring infantry spam-fest.

    The way cav worked before where abusing impact damage and barely using your charge bonus was optimal was janky as hell but it was still 10 times better than the current mess.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,518
    as far as i can tell from janky tests vs the AI (but please do correct me with more/better tests), i think infantry are basically dealing similar damage on the charge to cav as they do to other infantry. The reason they are probably having challenges fixing this is it probably isn't a bug but just math.

    The question is how to either give elite cav some protection when charging or just better stats across the board to compensate since they were not balanced for this reality for the life of the game.

    i don't actually mind GW infantry having their charges be important when they can land them. But cav needs to have an advantage for the price it pays, especially elite cav, because it was paying alot for charge advantage and not for stats or hp.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,518

    The most perfect example to show is Longbeards GW, LB GW have charge defence vs Large, so it would make sense you rather be braced vs Cav to nullify Cav's charge bonus YET they do more dmg to cav and overall perform much better by counter charging them instead of being braced...makes 0 Sense and shows perfectly that the interaction is broken.

    Heck even Halberds do better by counter charging than Bracing...

    right but those examples actually show that bracing is stupid and close to useless in this game.

    The question is what is the solution for the charges; how to artificially reduce damage to cav but not eliminate damage to cav; or instead rebalance units in some way.
  • Reym#7442Reym#7442 Registered Users Posts: 825
    eumaies said:

    elite cav need some help for sure.

    I'm unclear though if bestigors (for example) charging cav do extra damage relative to bestigors charging infantry. Would be curious for someone to say if they've found a good way of testing that. Seems relevant for understanding how they might best help cav.

    Felkon and else tested it to death, basicaly since infantry got way less chance to fall they deal a lot of damages when countercharging. It's very clear with high charge infantry but it works with any inf really, to a point that it's stupid to brace vs cav with units who got charge def vs large, just countercharge and you register a lot of hits in.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,357
    eumaies said:

    The most perfect example to show is Longbeards GW, LB GW have charge defence vs Large, so it would make sense you rather be braced vs Cav to nullify Cav's charge bonus YET they do more dmg to cav and overall perform much better by counter charging them instead of being braced...makes 0 Sense and shows perfectly that the interaction is broken.

    Heck even Halberds do better by counter charging than Bracing...

    right but those examples actually show that bracing is stupid and close to useless in this game.

    The question is what is the solution for the charges; how to artificially reduce damage to cav but not eliminate damage to cav; or instead rebalance units in some way.
    Well vs monsters that is not the case, and before the stuff up with cav it was not the case either, so to me it just highlights how clear the bug is, im not defending that bracing is weird but Units with charge defense previously were better of actually bracing unlike now where they are better charging.



    Ummm the bandaid solution i can think of is reverse of "ogre charge", give cav "ogre defense" obvioulsy name it better but any "small" unit charging into cav who is during their charge animation "so while charge speed tirggers" gets only 1/2 their bonus.

    Basically give cav half effective charge defense while charging. IF that is possible to apply IF not possible

    Than give 1/2 charge defense vs small at all times with condition disabled if in melee for 5s, so if the cav is already in melee they can be counter charged by infantry to full effect.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,518
    Reym said:

    eumaies said:

    elite cav need some help for sure.

    I'm unclear though if bestigors (for example) charging cav do extra damage relative to bestigors charging infantry. Would be curious for someone to say if they've found a good way of testing that. Seems relevant for understanding how they might best help cav.

    Felkon and else tested it to death, basicaly since infantry got way less chance to fall they deal a lot of damages when countercharging. It's very clear with high charge infantry but it works with any inf really, to a point that it's stupid to brace vs cav with units who got charge def vs large, just countercharge and you register a lot of hits in.
    Yeah I know all that but it doesn’t answer the question or address Indy’s misconception. They aren’t dealing extra damage it’s just a new problem because now they actually land attacks.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,518

    eumaies said:

    The most perfect example to show is Longbeards GW, LB GW have charge defence vs Large, so it would make sense you rather be braced vs Cav to nullify Cav's charge bonus YET they do more dmg to cav and overall perform much better by counter charging them instead of being braced...makes 0 Sense and shows perfectly that the interaction is broken.

    Heck even Halberds do better by counter charging than Bracing...

    right but those examples actually show that bracing is stupid and close to useless in this game.

    The question is what is the solution for the charges; how to artificially reduce damage to cav but not eliminate damage to cav; or instead rebalance units in some way.
    Well vs monsters that is not the case, and before the stuff up with cav it was not the case either, so to me it just highlights how clear the bug is, im not defending that bracing is weird but Units with charge defense previously were better of actually bracing unlike now where they are better charging.



    Ummm the bandaid solution i can think of is reverse of "ogre charge", give cav "ogre defense" obvioulsy name it better but any "small" unit charging into cav who is during their charge animation "so while charge speed tirggers" gets only 1/2 their bonus.

    Basically give cav half effective charge defense while charging. IF that is possible to apply IF not possible

    Than give 1/2 charge defense vs small at all times with condition disabled if in melee for 5s, so if the cav is already in melee they can be counter charged by infantry to full effect.
    Yup that would be about right as a fix. I like it.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,518
    Green0 said:

    blindjonn said:

    As milkandcookies draws attention to here:



    There are now lot of damage multiplying bugs in the game, I hope they are hotfixed. Assuming that game 3 doesn't get a "Mortal Empires" at launch, these bugs could bury multiplayer.

    game's already buried mate, all the best players and veterans left the game.
    Yeah green you took all the talent. But why hang around for the trolling? I guess that’s one place you can be a winner.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,357
    Game is not dead, people are frustrated for sure with all the bugs, they being showcased because we want to fix the game, everyone agrees on bug Fixes Green, and some people who are on pause will come back and if not than that is their choice.
  • Jman5#8318Jman5#8318 Registered Users Posts: 2,167
    From what I can tell the damage isn't noticeably different when GW charge infantry than when they charge Cavalry. I suspect part of the reason it feels worse with cavalry is because they tend to have less hitpoints. Also the fact that they have fewer models means there is less overkill damage being wasted vs cav. For example, if it takes 1.5 hits to kill an infantry, but 3 hits to kill a cavalry model, 25% of the damage vs infantry is being wasted, while none is vs cavalry.

    The previous knock down effects may have been masking this issue, but like was said earlier it's likely not a "bug", but a design flaw.

    I like Lotus Moon's "ogre defense" idea. Sort of like an inverse of brace. When cavalry is charging in, it nullifies or reduces counter charges from the front from small units. Anything that charges you afterwards, from the side, rear, or before you can initiate the charge sprint is fair game.

    Maybe we could call it Trample.
  • FedakynFedakyn Registered Users Posts: 39
    I will say I've stopped playing the game since this cavalry nonsense a few months ago, and probably won't go back until we get things back to a functional state like we used to have. AOE spells, the chariot bug and perpetual broken/bugged? cavalry make the tactics of this game a lot weaker. Especially cav as mobility is some of the most fun you can have in the game. Idk, if it gets patched and works again (and I think it will stay fixed) I'll play and heck buy new buy dlc even; but something feels very wrong with the new dlc releasing with things like this. And I have loved this game. Oh well.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Fedakyn said:

    I will say I've stopped playing the game since this cavalry nonsense a few months ago, and probably won't go back until we get things back to a functional state like we used to have. AOE spells, the chariot bug and perpetual broken/bugged? cavalry make the tactics of this game a lot weaker. Especially cav as mobility is some of the most fun you can have in the game. Idk, if it gets patched and works again (and I think it will stay fixed) I'll play and heck buy new buy dlc even; but something feels very wrong with the new dlc releasing with things like this. And I have loved this game. Oh well.

    Before it was just a completely one-sided interaction in favor of high mass units, so no, that must never ever return and that was explicitely the result of a bug.

    Tight formations are good for nothing if they don't actually help resisting impacts. Counter-charges should be punished heavier, but tight formations should not be bowling pins.

    The only infantry that should get run over by impacts is the one in loose formation, but those tend to resist charges better thanks bad game design.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    The formations didn't change though, charging braced units is the same it always was. If anything, it's how tight models can pack while fighting in melee that changed, and that's why halberds are more deadly when countercharging than when bracing....
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,182

    Fedakyn said:

    I will say I've stopped playing the game since this cavalry nonsense a few months ago, and probably won't go back until we get things back to a functional state like we used to have. AOE spells, the chariot bug and perpetual broken/bugged? cavalry make the tactics of this game a lot weaker. Especially cav as mobility is some of the most fun you can have in the game. Idk, if it gets patched and works again (and I think it will stay fixed) I'll play and heck buy new buy dlc even; but something feels very wrong with the new dlc releasing with things like this. And I have loved this game. Oh well.

    Before it was just a completely one-sided interaction in favor of high mass units, so no, that must never ever return and that was explicitely the result of a bug.

    Tight formations are good for nothing if they don't actually help resisting impacts. Counter-charges should be punished heavier, but tight formations should not be bowling pins.

    The only infantry that should get run over by impacts is the one in loose formation, but those tend to resist charges better thanks bad game design.
    it WAS NEVER one sided interaction for cav vs inf. They arent chariots or SEM. They had always get a few models stuck at charges besides test scenarios and now is even worse to the point elite cav is just terrible.

    that said, i dont want it go back to before but that narrative of yours is completely false
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,518

    The formations didn't change though, charging braced units is the same it always was. If anything, it's how tight models can pack while fighting in melee that changed, and that's why halberds are more deadly when countercharging than when bracing....

    It seems clear to me and the simplest explanation that unbraced infantry previously just got tossed around like rag dolls and never landed any hits at all. Doesn’t seem complicated. And that wasn’t tenable either with cav effectively dominating halbards in end game.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Fedakyn said:

    I will say I've stopped playing the game since this cavalry nonsense a few months ago, and probably won't go back until we get things back to a functional state like we used to have. AOE spells, the chariot bug and perpetual broken/bugged? cavalry make the tactics of this game a lot weaker. Especially cav as mobility is some of the most fun you can have in the game. Idk, if it gets patched and works again (and I think it will stay fixed) I'll play and heck buy new buy dlc even; but something feels very wrong with the new dlc releasing with things like this. And I have loved this game. Oh well.

    Before it was just a completely one-sided interaction in favor of high mass units, so no, that must never ever return and that was explicitely the result of a bug.

    Tight formations are good for nothing if they don't actually help resisting impacts. Counter-charges should be punished heavier, but tight formations should not be bowling pins.

    The only infantry that should get run over by impacts is the one in loose formation, but those tend to resist charges better thanks bad game design.
    it WAS NEVER one sided interaction for cav vs inf. They arent chariots or SEM. They had always get a few models stuck at charges besides test scenarios and now is even worse to the point elite cav is just terrible.

    that said, i dont want it go back to before but that narrative of yours is completely false
    Light cav at most, but heavy cav definitely was part of the bowling team. Also, didn't need more than a barded warhorse mount to successfully cause constant dirtnaps to foot characters.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,583

    Fedakyn said:

    I will say I've stopped playing the game since this cavalry nonsense a few months ago, and probably won't go back until we get things back to a functional state like we used to have. AOE spells, the chariot bug and perpetual broken/bugged? cavalry make the tactics of this game a lot weaker. Especially cav as mobility is some of the most fun you can have in the game. Idk, if it gets patched and works again (and I think it will stay fixed) I'll play and heck buy new buy dlc even; but something feels very wrong with the new dlc releasing with things like this. And I have loved this game. Oh well.

    Before it was just a completely one-sided interaction in favor of high mass units, so no, that must never ever return and that was explicitely the result of a bug.

    Tight formations are good for nothing if they don't actually help resisting impacts. Counter-charges should be punished heavier, but tight formations should not be bowling pins.

    The only infantry that should get run over by impacts is the one in loose formation, but those tend to resist charges better thanks bad game design.
    Funny you mentioned that, there is historical tw yt crtic who think thats exactly how loose formation work. Because that's how it worked in all the older games.
    So this issue predate tww

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    saweendra said:

    Fedakyn said:

    I will say I've stopped playing the game since this cavalry nonsense a few months ago, and probably won't go back until we get things back to a functional state like we used to have. AOE spells, the chariot bug and perpetual broken/bugged? cavalry make the tactics of this game a lot weaker. Especially cav as mobility is some of the most fun you can have in the game. Idk, if it gets patched and works again (and I think it will stay fixed) I'll play and heck buy new buy dlc even; but something feels very wrong with the new dlc releasing with things like this. And I have loved this game. Oh well.

    Before it was just a completely one-sided interaction in favor of high mass units, so no, that must never ever return and that was explicitely the result of a bug.

    Tight formations are good for nothing if they don't actually help resisting impacts. Counter-charges should be punished heavier, but tight formations should not be bowling pins.

    The only infantry that should get run over by impacts is the one in loose formation, but those tend to resist charges better thanks bad game design.
    Funny you mentioned that, there is historical tw yt crtic who think thats exactly how loose formation work. Because that's how it worked in all the older games.
    So this issue predate tww
    It actually didn't, loose formation caused infantry to take more damage on charges in older TWs, in 3K the penalty was double charge damage even. Of course, in older TWs you could switch certain infantry units to go wide or tight, something CA didn't feel necessary to include in this title.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,583

    saweendra said:

    Fedakyn said:

    I will say I've stopped playing the game since this cavalry nonsense a few months ago, and probably won't go back until we get things back to a functional state like we used to have. AOE spells, the chariot bug and perpetual broken/bugged? cavalry make the tactics of this game a lot weaker. Especially cav as mobility is some of the most fun you can have in the game. Idk, if it gets patched and works again (and I think it will stay fixed) I'll play and heck buy new buy dlc even; but something feels very wrong with the new dlc releasing with things like this. And I have loved this game. Oh well.

    Before it was just a completely one-sided interaction in favor of high mass units, so no, that must never ever return and that was explicitely the result of a bug.

    Tight formations are good for nothing if they don't actually help resisting impacts. Counter-charges should be punished heavier, but tight formations should not be bowling pins.

    The only infantry that should get run over by impacts is the one in loose formation, but those tend to resist charges better thanks bad game design.
    Funny you mentioned that, there is historical tw yt crtic who think thats exactly how loose formation work. Because that's how it worked in all the older games.
    So this issue predate tww
    It actually didn't, loose formation caused infantry to take more damage on charges in older TWs, in 3K the penalty was double charge damage even. Of course, in older TWs you could switch certain infantry units to go wide or tight, something CA didn't feel necessary to include in this title.
    ha so they are wrong or i mis heard them.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,182

    Fedakyn said:

    I will say I've stopped playing the game since this cavalry nonsense a few months ago, and probably won't go back until we get things back to a functional state like we used to have. AOE spells, the chariot bug and perpetual broken/bugged? cavalry make the tactics of this game a lot weaker. Especially cav as mobility is some of the most fun you can have in the game. Idk, if it gets patched and works again (and I think it will stay fixed) I'll play and heck buy new buy dlc even; but something feels very wrong with the new dlc releasing with things like this. And I have loved this game. Oh well.

    Before it was just a completely one-sided interaction in favor of high mass units, so no, that must never ever return and that was explicitely the result of a bug.

    Tight formations are good for nothing if they don't actually help resisting impacts. Counter-charges should be punished heavier, but tight formations should not be bowling pins.

    The only infantry that should get run over by impacts is the one in loose formation, but those tend to resist charges better thanks bad game design.
    it WAS NEVER one sided interaction for cav vs inf. They arent chariots or SEM. They had always get a few models stuck at charges besides test scenarios and now is even worse to the point elite cav is just terrible.

    that said, i dont want it go back to before but that narrative of yours is completely false
    Light cav at most, but heavy cav definitely was part of the bowling team. Also, didn't need more than a barded warhorse mount to successfully cause constant dirtnaps to foot characters.
    Ya no, not even heavy cav. can always get perfect free charges. The first 1-2 charges most likely, but as the battles goes on the formation gets messier, they get stuck more often.

    Unless its WE but WE is one faction out 10+ now.

    foot character problem is a different story, we are talking inf vs cav. not individual SE.
  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 2,047
    eumaies said:

    The formations didn't change though, charging braced units is the same it always was. If anything, it's how tight models can pack while fighting in melee that changed, and that's why halberds are more deadly when countercharging than when bracing....

    It seems clear to me and the simplest explanation that unbraced infantry previously just got tossed around like rag dolls and never landed any hits at all. Doesn’t seem complicated. And that wasn’t tenable either with cav effectively dominating halbards in end game.
    We know it's not just a matter of knockdown because the mass change came before the bugfix that caused this issue. The change is related to previously missed attacks on a charge now registering as a hit. Lotus_Moon's suggestion of a half charge defense for cav is an option but that's just a bandaid.

    The issue is likely that infantry CB has been overtuned to bruteforce around the bug in the same way adding mass and knockback resistance was previously used to try and brute force footlords into a playable state. In that scenario CA had been aware of the problem and attempted to address the issue systemically, removing extra power when the change went live. Since this change was an accident those balance adjustments never came and now the overtuned CB is causing issues. Reducing CB by 1/3 or 1/2 on all infantry would address the problem effectively though it might have other unintended consequences, though I imagine in infantry match ups it would mostly just slow combat rather than change outcomes.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,099
    edited July 2021
    I'm fine with the idea that heavy cavalry cannot safely launch frontal charges on massed infantry. The dynamic that creates is correct. Cavalry pays a premium for mobility, it should have to use it to achieve good value; a frontal charge into an unbroken infantry line should fail in the vast majority of cases. The way cav in Warhammer can frontally hammer through infantry units, bowl them over, inflict impact damage and then run away while taking little or no damage themselves has irritated me for years.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 10,000
    Any bugs shouldbe fixed pronto
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,518

    I'm fine with the idea that heavy cavalry cannot safely launch frontal charges on massed infantry. The dynamic that creates is correct. Cavalry pays a premium for mobility, it should have to use it to achieve good value; a frontal charge into an unbroken infantry line should fail in the vast majority of cases. The way cav in Warhammer can frontally hammer through infantry units, bowl them over, inflict impact damage and then run away while taking little or no damage themselves has irritated me for years.

    i agree with this AND i agree with indy that in an ideal case Cav would trade proportionally better in those head to heads.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,099
    eumaies said:

    I'm fine with the idea that heavy cavalry cannot safely launch frontal charges on massed infantry. The dynamic that creates is correct. Cavalry pays a premium for mobility, it should have to use it to achieve good value; a frontal charge into an unbroken infantry line should fail in the vast majority of cases. The way cav in Warhammer can frontally hammer through infantry units, bowl them over, inflict impact damage and then run away while taking little or no damage themselves has irritated me for years.

    i agree with this AND i agree with indy that in an ideal case Cav would trade proportionally better in those head to heads.
    Honestly the only thing that irritates me is how useless bracing is. In my idea of the perfect TW game counter-charging cavalry wouldn't be super helpful, but bracing and absorbing a frontal charge would have a damage reflection effect.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,182
    edited July 2021

    I'm fine with the idea that heavy cavalry cannot safely launch frontal charges on massed infantry. The dynamic that creates is correct. Cavalry pays a premium for mobility, it should have to use it to achieve good value; a frontal charge into an unbroken infantry line should fail in the vast majority of cases. The way cav in Warhammer can frontally hammer through infantry units, bowl them over, inflict impact damage and then run away while taking little or no damage themselves has irritated me for years.

    They are already paying for like 400-500 more. The premium for mobility is already paid.
    Heavy inf also get advantage of massive more hp like chaos warrior over cav. Where is that premium?

  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,099

    I'm fine with the idea that heavy cavalry cannot safely launch frontal charges on massed infantry. The dynamic that creates is correct. Cavalry pays a premium for mobility, it should have to use it to achieve good value; a frontal charge into an unbroken infantry line should fail in the vast majority of cases. The way cav in Warhammer can frontally hammer through infantry units, bowl them over, inflict impact damage and then run away while taking little or no damage themselves has irritated me for years.

    They are already paying for like 400-500 more. The premium for mobility is already paid.
    Heavy inf also get advantage of massive more hp like chaos warrior over cav. Where is that premium?

    I'm not sure what this paragraph is trying to say. Can you clarify?
This discussion has been closed.