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Infantry counter-charging Cavalry gets 3 or 4 times more attacks than they should.

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  • Pocman#6295Pocman#6295 Registered Users Posts: 5,760

    eumaies said:

    Literally all you need to do to counter cav is bring spears. I'm not asking for this to change, they would still be fine against cav.

    As a very simple example brettonia was considered unbeatable for high elves largely because spears and halbard didn’t counter cav. Now they do.

    Elite cav need some help. Many things have piled on to make them not balanced well. But the previous state of the game had problems as well.
    This is completely wrong, I know this matchup very, very well at comp level and have beaten very good players from the HE side here. HE infantry have no trouble what so ever to counter bret cav, the problem for HE used to be that Grail Knights win decisively vs all HE cav, and without mobility HE struggled to kill trebs and archers. The box was always strong enough, the win con was always for HE to shut down bret ranged and arty before they dealt too much damage to pg. After dlc that changed a lot, silverins are cheaper options to do the job pg did, flying archmage gives more options to kill archers, and you got more funds over all to shut down ranged with. You can now play it in many different ways, but the problem was never that inf got owned by cav, it was that you had no way of contesting the cav game with DP vs GK, and that enabled bret ranged.
    That's objectively wrong. There was a point were a bretonnian spear formation could just go through elven infantry as if they weren't there.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    edited July 2021
    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Literally all you need to do to counter cav is bring spears. I'm not asking for this to change, they would still be fine against cav.

    As a very simple example brettonia was considered unbeatable for high elves largely because spears and halbard didn’t counter cav. Now they do.

    Elite cav need some help. Many things have piled on to make them not balanced well. But the previous state of the game had problems as well.
    This is completely wrong, I know this matchup very, very well at comp level and have beaten very good players from the HE side here. HE infantry have no trouble what so ever to counter bret cav, the problem for HE used to be that Grail Knights win decisively vs all HE cav, and without mobility HE struggled to kill trebs and archers. The box was always strong enough, the win con was always for HE to shut down bret ranged and arty before they dealt too much damage to pg. After dlc that changed a lot, silverins are cheaper options to do the job pg did, flying archmage gives more options to kill archers, and you got more funds over all to shut down ranged with. You can now play it in many different ways, but the problem was never that inf got owned by cav, it was that you had no way of contesting the cav game with DP vs GK, and that enabled bret ranged.
    That's objectively wrong. There was a point were a bretonnian spear formation could just go through elven infantry as if they weren't there.
    WE infantry yes, dreadspears yes, HE infantry no.... The spears have 50 more mass and do relatively well, pg even better. You have a dragon on overwatch so engaging the infantry with bret cav has to be made carefully. Xiphos showcased the HE pg-box several times in tournaments at the time if you don't take my word for it, and these are the reason bret needs to bring ranged vs HE.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,518
    Green0 said:

    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Literally all you need to do to counter cav is bring spears. I'm not asking for this to change, they would still be fine against cav.

    As a very simple example brettonia was considered unbeatable for high elves largely because spears and halbard didn’t counter cav. Now they do.

    Elite cav need some help. Many things have piled on to make them not balanced well. But the previous state of the game had problems as well.
    This is completely wrong, I know this matchup very, very well at comp level and have beaten very good players from the HE side here. HE infantry have no trouble what so ever to counter bret cav, the problem for HE used to be that Grail Knights win decisively vs all HE cav, and without mobility HE struggled to kill trebs and archers. The box was always strong enough, the win con was always for HE to shut down bret ranged and arty before they dealt too much damage to pg. After dlc that changed a lot, silverins are cheaper options to do the job pg did, flying archmage gives more options to kill archers, and you got more funds over all to shut down ranged with. You can now play it in many different ways, but the problem was never that inf got owned by cav, it was that you had no way of contesting the cav game with DP vs GK, and that enabled bret ranged.
    That's objectively wrong. There was a point were a bretonnian spear formation could just go through elven infantry as if they weren't there.
    at no point was charging your Grails train frontally into spears ever a good play. Yes models might not have attacked back vs cavalry charges in past patches, but cavalry models always got stuck inside infantey with each cycle or charging.Normally you would have 4-5 dead pwr cycle, in case of a frontal charge you are maybe even looking at 10 or so.

    Bret anti-infantey is and always was the Fey draining aura, it's ridiculous to suggest that Grail Knights or equivalent were capable of clearing whole infantey armies when this was never the case.
    This was so clearly the case that when expert players in my clan take all cav Brett armies Vs pure spear armies of high elves and (barely) lose they are shocked at how much the game has changed.

    Yeah you didn’t charge braced stuff from the front. But when you sometimes did it was no problem just retreat or send in another unit.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,182
    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Literally all you need to do to counter cav is bring spears. I'm not asking for this to change, they would still be fine against cav.

    As a very simple example brettonia was considered unbeatable for high elves largely because spears and halbard didn’t counter cav. Now they do.

    Elite cav need some help. Many things have piled on to make them not balanced well. But the previous state of the game had problems as well.
    This is completely wrong, I know this matchup very, very well at comp level and have beaten very good players from the HE side here. HE infantry have no trouble what so ever to counter bret cav, the problem for HE used to be that Grail Knights win decisively vs all HE cav, and without mobility HE struggled to kill trebs and archers. The box was always strong enough, the win con was always for HE to shut down bret ranged and arty before they dealt too much damage to pg. After dlc that changed a lot, silverins are cheaper options to do the job pg did, flying archmage gives more options to kill archers, and you got more funds over all to shut down ranged with. You can now play it in many different ways, but the problem was never that inf got owned by cav, it was that you had no way of contesting the cav game with DP vs GK, and that enabled bret ranged.
    That's objectively wrong. There was a point were a bretonnian spear formation could just go through elven infantry as if they weren't there.
    at no point was charging your Grails train frontally into spears ever a good play. Yes models might not have attacked back vs cavalry charges in past patches, but cavalry models always got stuck inside infantey with each cycle or charging.Normally you would have 4-5 dead pwr cycle, in case of a frontal charge you are maybe even looking at 10 or so.

    Bret anti-infantey is and always was the Fey draining aura, it's ridiculous to suggest that Grail Knights or equivalent were capable of clearing whole infantey armies when this was never the case.
    This was so clearly the case that when expert players in my clan take all cav Brett armies Vs pure spear armies of high elves and (barely) lose they are shocked at how much the game has changed.

    Yeah you didn’t charge braced stuff from the front. But when you sometimes did it was no problem just retreat or send in another unit.
    Thats only in the simple aspect brace spears vs charging cav

    usually in battle, the charging cav can also face missile fire, magic and counter charge from high mass units. Making charging into brace spears actually detrimental.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,747

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Literally all you need to do to counter cav is bring spears. I'm not asking for this to change, they would still be fine against cav.

    As a very simple example brettonia was considered unbeatable for high elves largely because spears and halbard didn’t counter cav. Now they do.

    Elite cav need some help. Many things have piled on to make them not balanced well. But the previous state of the game had problems as well.
    This is completely wrong, I know this matchup very, very well at comp level and have beaten very good players from the HE side here. HE infantry have no trouble what so ever to counter bret cav, the problem for HE used to be that Grail Knights win decisively vs all HE cav, and without mobility HE struggled to kill trebs and archers. The box was always strong enough, the win con was always for HE to shut down bret ranged and arty before they dealt too much damage to pg. After dlc that changed a lot, silverins are cheaper options to do the job pg did, flying archmage gives more options to kill archers, and you got more funds over all to shut down ranged with. You can now play it in many different ways, but the problem was never that inf got owned by cav, it was that you had no way of contesting the cav game with DP vs GK, and that enabled bret ranged.
    That's objectively wrong. There was a point were a bretonnian spear formation could just go through elven infantry as if they weren't there.
    at no point was charging your Grails train frontally into spears ever a good play. Yes models might not have attacked back vs cavalry charges in past patches, but cavalry models always got stuck inside infantey with each cycle or charging.Normally you would have 4-5 dead pwr cycle, in case of a frontal charge you are maybe even looking at 10 or so.

    Bret anti-infantey is and always was the Fey draining aura, it's ridiculous to suggest that Grail Knights or equivalent were capable of clearing whole infantey armies when this was never the case.
    This was so clearly the case that when expert players in my clan take all cav Brett armies Vs pure spear armies of high elves and (barely) lose they are shocked at how much the game has changed.

    Yeah you didn’t charge braced stuff from the front. But when you sometimes did it was no problem just retreat or send in another unit.
    Thats only in the simple aspect brace spears vs charging cav

    usually in battle, the charging cav can also face missile fire, magic and counter charge from high mass units. Making charging into brace spears actually detrimental.
    And that is the the propel goal of the game. A combination of arms. There are just too many factors involved but it seems everyone is focusing on the tree instead of the forest.

    Sure cav has seen a hit on it's performance. But if for argument's sake we revert the change that happened in the twisted/twilight patch, you end up with 2 units types strangling, not one.

    I mean I can't imagine why isn't considered a more immediate problem that cav basically begins the match with 38 models vs death lore factions, but counter charging infantry is. Which took quite a while to be noticed, which means it is not a regular occurrence.

    But I guess traditions die hard after years of a certain way of doing things.

    FWIW I do not think the current situation is good in the sense that moving inf, which means less cohesion, should have discernable disadvantage. As Asamu said the optimal would be to make non-chargedefence infantry to not get plowed by charges, and cavalry performing better vs moving infantry.

    Unfortunately as some pointed above, the braced units hardly land attacks and the charging ones go yolo so dunno.

    In any case, this charge thing isn't the top priority it's made out to be compared to other problems imho.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,182

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Literally all you need to do to counter cav is bring spears. I'm not asking for this to change, they would still be fine against cav.

    As a very simple example brettonia was considered unbeatable for high elves largely because spears and halbard didn’t counter cav. Now they do.

    Elite cav need some help. Many things have piled on to make them not balanced well. But the previous state of the game had problems as well.
    This is completely wrong, I know this matchup very, very well at comp level and have beaten very good players from the HE side here. HE infantry have no trouble what so ever to counter bret cav, the problem for HE used to be that Grail Knights win decisively vs all HE cav, and without mobility HE struggled to kill trebs and archers. The box was always strong enough, the win con was always for HE to shut down bret ranged and arty before they dealt too much damage to pg. After dlc that changed a lot, silverins are cheaper options to do the job pg did, flying archmage gives more options to kill archers, and you got more funds over all to shut down ranged with. You can now play it in many different ways, but the problem was never that inf got owned by cav, it was that you had no way of contesting the cav game with DP vs GK, and that enabled bret ranged.
    That's objectively wrong. There was a point were a bretonnian spear formation could just go through elven infantry as if they weren't there.
    at no point was charging your Grails train frontally into spears ever a good play. Yes models might not have attacked back vs cavalry charges in past patches, but cavalry models always got stuck inside infantey with each cycle or charging.Normally you would have 4-5 dead pwr cycle, in case of a frontal charge you are maybe even looking at 10 or so.

    Bret anti-infantey is and always was the Fey draining aura, it's ridiculous to suggest that Grail Knights or equivalent were capable of clearing whole infantey armies when this was never the case.
    This was so clearly the case that when expert players in my clan take all cav Brett armies Vs pure spear armies of high elves and (barely) lose they are shocked at how much the game has changed.

    Yeah you didn’t charge braced stuff from the front. But when you sometimes did it was no problem just retreat or send in another unit.
    Thats only in the simple aspect brace spears vs charging cav

    usually in battle, the charging cav can also face missile fire, magic and counter charge from high mass units. Making charging into brace spears actually detrimental.
    And that is the the propel goal of the game. A combination of arms. There are just too many factors involved but it seems everyone is focusing on the tree instead of the forest.

    Sure cav has seen a hit on it's performance. But if for argument's sake we revert the change that happened in the twisted/twilight patch, you end up with 2 units types strangling, not one.

    I mean I can't imagine why isn't considered a more immediate problem that cav basically begins the match with 38 models vs death lore factions, but counter charging infantry is. Which took quite a while to be noticed, which means it is not a regular occurrence.

    But I guess traditions die hard after years of a certain way of doing things.

    FWIW I do not think the current situation is good in the sense that moving inf, which means less cohesion, should have discernable disadvantage. As Asamu said the optimal would be to make non-chargedefence infantry to not get plowed by charges, and cavalry performing better vs moving infantry.

    Unfortunately as some pointed above, the braced units hardly land attacks and the charging ones go yolo so dunno.

    In any case, this charge thing isn't the top priority it's made out to be compared to other problems imho.
    I actually noticed it really early after they changed it, posted in the forum but ppl downplayed it in their zealous ride that anything that could slightly hurt infantry = end of infantry and cycle charging forever again
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Literally all you need to do to counter cav is bring spears. I'm not asking for this to change, they would still be fine against cav.

    As a very simple example brettonia was considered unbeatable for high elves largely because spears and halbard didn’t counter cav. Now they do.

    Elite cav need some help. Many things have piled on to make them not balanced well. But the previous state of the game had problems as well.
    This is completely wrong, I know this matchup very, very well at comp level and have beaten very good players from the HE side here. HE infantry have no trouble what so ever to counter bret cav, the problem for HE used to be that Grail Knights win decisively vs all HE cav, and without mobility HE struggled to kill trebs and archers. The box was always strong enough, the win con was always for HE to shut down bret ranged and arty before they dealt too much damage to pg. After dlc that changed a lot, silverins are cheaper options to do the job pg did, flying archmage gives more options to kill archers, and you got more funds over all to shut down ranged with. You can now play it in many different ways, but the problem was never that inf got owned by cav, it was that you had no way of contesting the cav game with DP vs GK, and that enabled bret ranged.
    That's objectively wrong. There was a point were a bretonnian spear formation could just go through elven infantry as if they weren't there.
    at no point was charging your Grails train frontally into spears ever a good play. Yes models might not have attacked back vs cavalry charges in past patches, but cavalry models always got stuck inside infantey with each cycle or charging.Normally you would have 4-5 dead pwr cycle, in case of a frontal charge you are maybe even looking at 10 or so.

    Bret anti-infantey is and always was the Fey draining aura, it's ridiculous to suggest that Grail Knights or equivalent were capable of clearing whole infantey armies when this was never the case.
    This was so clearly the case that when expert players in my clan take all cav Brett armies Vs pure spear armies of high elves and (barely) lose they are shocked at how much the game has changed.

    Yeah you didn’t charge braced stuff from the front. But when you sometimes did it was no problem just retreat or send in another unit.
    Thats only in the simple aspect brace spears vs charging cav

    usually in battle, the charging cav can also face missile fire, magic and counter charge from high mass units. Making charging into brace spears actually detrimental.
    And that is the the propel goal of the game. A combination of arms. There are just too many factors involved but it seems everyone is focusing on the tree instead of the forest.

    Sure cav has seen a hit on it's performance. But if for argument's sake we revert the change that happened in the twisted/twilight patch, you end up with 2 units types strangling, not one.

    I mean I can't imagine why isn't considered a more immediate problem that cav basically begins the match with 38 models vs death lore factions, but counter charging infantry is. Which took quite a while to be noticed, which means it is not a regular occurrence.

    But I guess traditions die hard after years of a certain way of doing things.

    FWIW I do not think the current situation is good in the sense that moving inf, which means less cohesion, should have discernable disadvantage. As Asamu said the optimal would be to make non-chargedefence infantry to not get plowed by charges, and cavalry performing better vs moving infantry.

    Unfortunately as some pointed above, the braced units hardly land attacks and the charging ones go yolo so dunno.

    In any case, this charge thing isn't the top priority it's made out to be compared to other problems imho.
    I actually noticed it really early after they changed it, posted in the forum but ppl downplayed it in their zealous ride that anything that could slightly hurt infantry = end of infantry and cycle charging forever again
    Story of my life.

    Thing is, cav was being questioned somewhat before this hit but after mass changes but most people found cav still being OK, while chariots were bad and the more abusive sems were balanced. That is what cav needs to be repaired to again, nobody is turning cav into mammoths (which they never were anyways).
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,182
    I seriously SERIOUSLY hope they make a new "size"
    infantry, cav, large

    for a long time, i felt cav is unfortunately dragged into the discussion and balance of SEM vs infantry problem when they do not have SEM's advantage.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    paying 25% to get speed with all the advantages that brings is reasonable. cavalry may need tweaks, shock cavalry in particular, like lowring MA and increasing MD or adding split damage...but cavalry doesnt need buffs, especially not vs generic infantry.
  • Totentanz777#2915Totentanz777#2915 Registered Users Posts: 823
    edited July 2021
    How to beat cavalry:

    1) Bring missiles and put spears all around them.

    2) shoot the cavalry with your missiles

    It isn't that hard folks. If cavalry aren't good against infantry without anti-large then what good are they at all? Just take infantry and you'll get more health and staying power per cost spent.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    edited July 2021

    How to beat cavalry:

    1) Bring missiles and put spears all around them.

    2) shoot the cavalry with your missiles

    It isn't that hard folks. If cavalry aren't good against infantry without anti-large then what good are they at all? Just take infantry and you'll get more health and staying power per cost spent.

    thats true of every unittype. there are units with antiinfantry, there are units with anti infantry abilities and mechanics. Those have been paid for by those units by acquiring new vulnerabilities; skirmish are weak in ranged attack for their cost, antiinfantry/antilarge units are weak in melee vs the sizetype they arent strong against.

    cavalry doesnt get to get extra bonuses because there exists unittypes that are specialized vs them.

    charge defense is compensated by cavalry being able to choose targets and being able to leverage their CB to overperform vs their combatvalues - indeed charge defense is only a partial protection and cavalry still gets to attack many more times than a bracing infantry unit does.

    demanding cavalry should beat infantry of equal tier is no different than demanding skirmish can beat ranged in ranged duels, or for chariots to beat heavy cavaklry on the countercharge, its just not how the game should work.
    Cavalry paid 25% to get speed, not unlike the premium on 360, it should not get to undo that cost by occasionally moving the unit.
  • MitechMitech Registered Users Posts: 134


    It isn't that hard folks. If cavalry aren't good against infantry without anti-large then what good are they at all? Just take infantry and you'll get more health and staying power per cost spent.

    What is cavalry good for other then running down AP infantry that's countercharging?

    Hard one.. let me think.
    Winning Fights on crucial points by charging already engaged infantry using their speed, running down fleeing units using their speed, running down skirmishers using their speed, threatening artillery because speed.
    People don't seem to remember the Old WH1 days, where if you won the cavalry,SEM fight you won the game.

    Yep cavalry is completely worthless.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 10,000
    edited July 2021
    How to beat infantry:

    1) Bring missiles

    2) Bring more infantry

    3) shoot the infantry with your missiles

    It isn't that hard folks. If u dont have the necessary intellect to use cav. Just take infantry and you'll get similar health and staying power per cost spent.

    Leave cav for the pros if incompetent to utilise them properly.

    Loves seeing the same cav spam players trying to cap a point in war3 when opponent brings 10x halberd lulzzzzz
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    Mitech said:


    It isn't that hard folks. If cavalry aren't good against infantry without anti-large then what good are they at all? Just take infantry and you'll get more health and staying power per cost spent.

    What is cavalry good for other then running down AP infantry that's countercharging?

    Hard one.. let me think.
    Winning Fights on crucial points by charging already engaged infantry using their speed, running down fleeing units using their speed, running down skirmishers using their speed, threatening artillery because speed.
    People don't seem to remember the Old WH1 days, where if you won the cavalry,SEM fight you won the game.

    Yep cavalry is completely worthless.
    Also: maneuvering to attack stronger units from several sides while their slow buddies are catching up, finding holes (or opening them with feint, magic, maneuvers, chariots) in the enemy box and destroying ranged, catching chariots.

    but yeah totally cant se any other reason to get cavalry than yoloing into elite AP infantry. pretty sure that their main purpose right?
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    @RawSugar I will have to give up trying to talk to you. No competent player in this game genuinely believe the role of shock cav is to only counter ranged or that they are not in a sad state at the moment.

    Fair enough if you have your personal reasons to argue for them to stay sad.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Totentanz777#2915Totentanz777#2915 Registered Users Posts: 823
    edited July 2021
    Mitech said:


    It isn't that hard folks. If cavalry aren't good against infantry without anti-large then what good are they at all? Just take infantry and you'll get more health and staying power per cost spent.

    What is cavalry good for other then running down AP infantry that's countercharging?

    Hard one.. let me think.
    Winning Fights on crucial points by charging already engaged infantry using their speed, running down fleeing units using their speed, running down skirmishers using their speed, threatening artillery because speed.
    People don't seem to remember the Old WH1 days, where if you won the cavalry,SEM fight you won the game.

    Yep cavalry is completely worthless.
    Most of what you described is only applicable to light cav, which I am not saying are weak and are taken far more often than heavy cav. People still take cheaper cavalry units, yes. But why would you pay a huge premium for AP demi lances if they will die to a charge of infantry? Are demi lances not supposed to be good against armored infantry? If not what is their role and why would anyone in their right mind ever take them then?

  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642

    Mitech said:


    It isn't that hard folks. If cavalry aren't good against infantry without anti-large then what good are they at all? Just take infantry and you'll get more health and staying power per cost spent.

    What is cavalry good for other then running down AP infantry that's countercharging?

    Hard one.. let me think.
    Winning Fights on crucial points by charging already engaged infantry using their speed, running down fleeing units using their speed, running down skirmishers using their speed, threatening artillery because speed.
    People don't seem to remember the Old WH1 days, where if you won the cavalry,SEM fight you won the game.

    Yep cavalry is completely worthless.
    Most of what you described is only applicable to light cav, which I am not saying are weak and are taken far more often than heavy cav. People still take cheaper cavalry units, yes. But why would you pay a huge premium for AP demi lances if they will die to a charge of infantry? Are demi lances not supposed to be good against armored infantry? If not what is their role and why would anyone in their right mind ever take them then?

    because they are strong vs light cav, chariots, chaff, good in melee ranged, situationally vs stronger infantry. Basically same reasons you bring heavy infantry, the job is similar but you're stronger in melee in exchange for losing numbers.

    @Disposable Hero as long as you realize you were wrong , thats fine then.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Literally all you need to do to counter cav is bring spears. I'm not asking for this to change, they would still be fine against cav.

    As a very simple example brettonia was considered unbeatable for high elves largely because spears and halbard didn’t counter cav. Now they do.

    Elite cav need some help. Many things have piled on to make them not balanced well. But the previous state of the game had problems as well.
    This is completely wrong, I know this matchup very, very well at comp level and have beaten very good players from the HE side here. HE infantry have no trouble what so ever to counter bret cav, the problem for HE used to be that Grail Knights win decisively vs all HE cav, and without mobility HE struggled to kill trebs and archers. The box was always strong enough, the win con was always for HE to shut down bret ranged and arty before they dealt too much damage to pg. After dlc that changed a lot, silverins are cheaper options to do the job pg did, flying archmage gives more options to kill archers, and you got more funds over all to shut down ranged with. You can now play it in many different ways, but the problem was never that inf got owned by cav, it was that you had no way of contesting the cav game with DP vs GK, and that enabled bret ranged.
    That's objectively wrong. There was a point were a bretonnian spear formation could just go through elven infantry as if they weren't there.
    at no point was charging your Grails train frontally into spears ever a good play. Yes models might not have attacked back vs cavalry charges in past patches, but cavalry models always got stuck inside infantey with each cycle or charging.Normally you would have 4-5 dead pwr cycle, in case of a frontal charge you are maybe even looking at 10 or so.

    Bret anti-infantey is and always was the Fey draining aura, it's ridiculous to suggest that Grail Knights or equivalent were capable of clearing whole infantey armies when this was never the case.
    This was so clearly the case that when expert players in my clan take all cav Brett armies Vs pure spear armies of high elves and (barely) lose they are shocked at how much the game has changed.

    Yeah you didn’t charge braced stuff from the front. But when you sometimes did it was no problem just retreat or send in another unit.
    Thats only in the simple aspect brace spears vs charging cav

    usually in battle, the charging cav can also face missile fire, magic and counter charge from high mass units. Making charging into brace spears actually detrimental.
    And that is the the propel goal of the game. A combination of arms. There are just too many factors involved but it seems everyone is focusing on the tree instead of the forest.

    Sure cav has seen a hit on it's performance. But if for argument's sake we revert the change that happened in the twisted/twilight patch, you end up with 2 units types strangling, not one.

    I mean I can't imagine why isn't considered a more immediate problem that cav basically begins the match with 38 models vs death lore factions, but counter charging infantry is. Which took quite a while to be noticed, which means it is not a regular occurrence.

    But I guess traditions die hard after years of a certain way of doing things.

    FWIW I do not think the current situation is good in the sense that moving inf, which means less cohesion, should have discernable disadvantage. As Asamu said the optimal would be to make non-chargedefence infantry to not get plowed by charges, and cavalry performing better vs moving infantry.

    Unfortunately as some pointed above, the braced units hardly land attacks and the charging ones go yolo so dunno.

    In any case, this charge thing isn't the top priority it's made out to be compared to other problems imho.
    I actually noticed it really early after they changed it, posted in the forum but ppl downplayed it in their zealous ride that anything that could slightly hurt infantry = end of infantry and cycle charging forever again
    So you want a game where you can bring nothing but heavy cav and hard-counter both infantry and skirmishers with no or minimal losses then?

    Sometimes I really wonder just what kind of game people want to play here.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,099

    Mitech said:


    It isn't that hard folks. If cavalry aren't good against infantry without anti-large then what good are they at all? Just take infantry and you'll get more health and staying power per cost spent.

    What is cavalry good for other then running down AP infantry that's countercharging?

    Hard one.. let me think.
    Winning Fights on crucial points by charging already engaged infantry using their speed, running down fleeing units using their speed, running down skirmishers using their speed, threatening artillery because speed.
    People don't seem to remember the Old WH1 days, where if you won the cavalry,SEM fight you won the game.

    Yep cavalry is completely worthless.
    Most of what you described is only applicable to light cav, which I am not saying are weak and are taken far more often than heavy cav. People still take cheaper cavalry units, yes. But why would you pay a huge premium for AP demi lances if they will die to a charge of infantry? Are demi lances not supposed to be good against armored infantry? If not what is their role and why would anyone in their right mind ever take them then?

    You use them to launch side charges on heavily armored infantry who have engaged with your chaff line. Light cavalry with low AP values would do extremely poorly; high-AP, high-CB shock cavalry, however, will inflict massive damage and break the targeted unit very quickly in that situation, which can give you a decided advantage in the front line fight. Alternatively, you can use them to charge into infantry who are at low Leadership and/or HP from previous combat or missile fire, letting you route then quickly and break through to attack another target. Or you can use them to attack weaker enemy cavalry and break them, giving yourself dominance in the mobility game and the ability to pick your fights as your please.

    Now of course Demigryph lances specifically have been suboptimal for a long time, and probably should get some stat buffs - but my point stands. There are plenty of things high-tier heavy cavalry do well that are not charging headlong into the faces of undamaged, unshaken heavy infantry.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,642
    Green0 said:



    which also happens to be the most common playstyle you see in tournaments, sometimes missiles are substituted by cavalry archers but you are right this is how 80% of games are played.

    just not true. at least as many funds are spent on cavalry as on ranged and infantry. elite infantry is comparatively rare but elite cavalry is very common - because its breaks chaff and ranged alike.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Literally all you need to do to counter cav is bring spears. I'm not asking for this to change, they would still be fine against cav.

    As a very simple example brettonia was considered unbeatable for high elves largely because spears and halbard didn’t counter cav. Now they do.

    Elite cav need some help. Many things have piled on to make them not balanced well. But the previous state of the game had problems as well.
    This is completely wrong, I know this matchup very, very well at comp level and have beaten very good players from the HE side here. HE infantry have no trouble what so ever to counter bret cav, the problem for HE used to be that Grail Knights win decisively vs all HE cav, and without mobility HE struggled to kill trebs and archers. The box was always strong enough, the win con was always for HE to shut down bret ranged and arty before they dealt too much damage to pg. After dlc that changed a lot, silverins are cheaper options to do the job pg did, flying archmage gives more options to kill archers, and you got more funds over all to shut down ranged with. You can now play it in many different ways, but the problem was never that inf got owned by cav, it was that you had no way of contesting the cav game with DP vs GK, and that enabled bret ranged.
    That's objectively wrong. There was a point were a bretonnian spear formation could just go through elven infantry as if they weren't there.
    at no point was charging your Grails train frontally into spears ever a good play. Yes models might not have attacked back vs cavalry charges in past patches, but cavalry models always got stuck inside infantey with each cycle or charging.Normally you would have 4-5 dead pwr cycle, in case of a frontal charge you are maybe even looking at 10 or so.

    Bret anti-infantey is and always was the Fey draining aura, it's ridiculous to suggest that Grail Knights or equivalent were capable of clearing whole infantey armies when this was never the case.
    This was so clearly the case that when expert players in my clan take all cav Brett armies Vs pure spear armies of high elves and (barely) lose they are shocked at how much the game has changed.

    Yeah you didn’t charge braced stuff from the front. But when you sometimes did it was no problem just retreat or send in another unit.
    Thats only in the simple aspect brace spears vs charging cav

    usually in battle, the charging cav can also face missile fire, magic and counter charge from high mass units. Making charging into brace spears actually detrimental.
    And that is the the propel goal of the game. A combination of arms. There are just too many factors involved but it seems everyone is focusing on the tree instead of the forest.

    Sure cav has seen a hit on it's performance. But if for argument's sake we revert the change that happened in the twisted/twilight patch, you end up with 2 units types strangling, not one.

    I mean I can't imagine why isn't considered a more immediate problem that cav basically begins the match with 38 models vs death lore factions, but counter charging infantry is. Which took quite a while to be noticed, which means it is not a regular occurrence.

    But I guess traditions die hard after years of a certain way of doing things.

    FWIW I do not think the current situation is good in the sense that moving inf, which means less cohesion, should have discernable disadvantage. As Asamu said the optimal would be to make non-chargedefence infantry to not get plowed by charges, and cavalry performing better vs moving infantry.

    Unfortunately as some pointed above, the braced units hardly land attacks and the charging ones go yolo so dunno.

    In any case, this charge thing isn't the top priority it's made out to be compared to other problems imho.
    I actually noticed it really early after they changed it, posted in the forum but ppl downplayed it in their zealous ride that anything that could slightly hurt infantry = end of infantry and cycle charging forever again
    So you want a game where you can bring nothing but heavy cav and hard-counter both infantry and skirmishers with no or minimal losses then?

    Sometimes I really wonder just what kind of game people want to play here.
    That's a situation that have never existed in game 2 and recreating the performance of the balanced cav before the stag fix will not magically turn balanced cav into imaginary mammoths.

    There is so much drama and fear here. All we want is to repair the things the stag "fix" broke.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 3,182

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Literally all you need to do to counter cav is bring spears. I'm not asking for this to change, they would still be fine against cav.

    As a very simple example brettonia was considered unbeatable for high elves largely because spears and halbard didn’t counter cav. Now they do.

    Elite cav need some help. Many things have piled on to make them not balanced well. But the previous state of the game had problems as well.
    This is completely wrong, I know this matchup very, very well at comp level and have beaten very good players from the HE side here. HE infantry have no trouble what so ever to counter bret cav, the problem for HE used to be that Grail Knights win decisively vs all HE cav, and without mobility HE struggled to kill trebs and archers. The box was always strong enough, the win con was always for HE to shut down bret ranged and arty before they dealt too much damage to pg. After dlc that changed a lot, silverins are cheaper options to do the job pg did, flying archmage gives more options to kill archers, and you got more funds over all to shut down ranged with. You can now play it in many different ways, but the problem was never that inf got owned by cav, it was that you had no way of contesting the cav game with DP vs GK, and that enabled bret ranged.
    That's objectively wrong. There was a point were a bretonnian spear formation could just go through elven infantry as if they weren't there.
    at no point was charging your Grails train frontally into spears ever a good play. Yes models might not have attacked back vs cavalry charges in past patches, but cavalry models always got stuck inside infantey with each cycle or charging.Normally you would have 4-5 dead pwr cycle, in case of a frontal charge you are maybe even looking at 10 or so.

    Bret anti-infantey is and always was the Fey draining aura, it's ridiculous to suggest that Grail Knights or equivalent were capable of clearing whole infantey armies when this was never the case.
    This was so clearly the case that when expert players in my clan take all cav Brett armies Vs pure spear armies of high elves and (barely) lose they are shocked at how much the game has changed.

    Yeah you didn’t charge braced stuff from the front. But when you sometimes did it was no problem just retreat or send in another unit.
    Thats only in the simple aspect brace spears vs charging cav

    usually in battle, the charging cav can also face missile fire, magic and counter charge from high mass units. Making charging into brace spears actually detrimental.
    And that is the the propel goal of the game. A combination of arms. There are just too many factors involved but it seems everyone is focusing on the tree instead of the forest.

    Sure cav has seen a hit on it's performance. But if for argument's sake we revert the change that happened in the twisted/twilight patch, you end up with 2 units types strangling, not one.

    I mean I can't imagine why isn't considered a more immediate problem that cav basically begins the match with 38 models vs death lore factions, but counter charging infantry is. Which took quite a while to be noticed, which means it is not a regular occurrence.

    But I guess traditions die hard after years of a certain way of doing things.

    FWIW I do not think the current situation is good in the sense that moving inf, which means less cohesion, should have discernable disadvantage. As Asamu said the optimal would be to make non-chargedefence infantry to not get plowed by charges, and cavalry performing better vs moving infantry.

    Unfortunately as some pointed above, the braced units hardly land attacks and the charging ones go yolo so dunno.

    In any case, this charge thing isn't the top priority it's made out to be compared to other problems imho.
    I actually noticed it really early after they changed it, posted in the forum but ppl downplayed it in their zealous ride that anything that could slightly hurt infantry = end of infantry and cycle charging forever again
    So you want a game where you can bring nothing but heavy cav and hard-counter both infantry and skirmishers with no or minimal losses then?

    Sometimes I really wonder just what kind of game people want to play here.
    No i want a forum where you stop putting words in people mouth and learn about nuance
  • Totentanz777#2915Totentanz777#2915 Registered Users Posts: 823

    Mitech said:


    It isn't that hard folks. If cavalry aren't good against infantry without anti-large then what good are they at all? Just take infantry and you'll get more health and staying power per cost spent.

    What is cavalry good for other then running down AP infantry that's countercharging?

    Hard one.. let me think.
    Winning Fights on crucial points by charging already engaged infantry using their speed, running down fleeing units using their speed, running down skirmishers using their speed, threatening artillery because speed.
    People don't seem to remember the Old WH1 days, where if you won the cavalry,SEM fight you won the game.

    Yep cavalry is completely worthless.
    Most of what you described is only applicable to light cav, which I am not saying are weak and are taken far more often than heavy cav. People still take cheaper cavalry units, yes. But why would you pay a huge premium for AP demi lances if they will die to a charge of infantry? Are demi lances not supposed to be good against armored infantry? If not what is their role and why would anyone in their right mind ever take them then?

    You use them to launch side charges on heavily armored infantry who have engaged with your chaff line. Light cavalry with low AP values would do extremely poorly; high-AP, high-CB shock cavalry, however, will inflict massive damage and break the targeted unit very quickly in that situation, which can give you a decided advantage in the front line fight. Alternatively, you can use them to charge into infantry who are at low Leadership and/or HP from previous combat or missile fire, letting you route then quickly and break through to attack another target. Or you can use them to attack weaker enemy cavalry and break them, giving yourself dominance in the mobility game and the ability to pick your fights as your please.

    Now of course Demigryph lances specifically have been suboptimal for a long time, and probably should get some stat buffs - but my point stands. There are plenty of things high-tier heavy cavalry do well that are not charging headlong into the faces of undamaged, unshaken heavy infantry.
    The problem is every charge will get a few cavalry models stuck. So your very expensive knight units will die to units half their cost, even if you have chaff in front. So why would you ever take expensive cavalry for this job when you can get cheaper knight units like knights of the blazing sun or empire knights which have more unit models. For the game right now there is very little reason to ever take demigryph knights.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,099

    Mitech said:


    It isn't that hard folks. If cavalry aren't good against infantry without anti-large then what good are they at all? Just take infantry and you'll get more health and staying power per cost spent.

    What is cavalry good for other then running down AP infantry that's countercharging?

    Hard one.. let me think.
    Winning Fights on crucial points by charging already engaged infantry using their speed, running down fleeing units using their speed, running down skirmishers using their speed, threatening artillery because speed.
    People don't seem to remember the Old WH1 days, where if you won the cavalry,SEM fight you won the game.

    Yep cavalry is completely worthless.
    Most of what you described is only applicable to light cav, which I am not saying are weak and are taken far more often than heavy cav. People still take cheaper cavalry units, yes. But why would you pay a huge premium for AP demi lances if they will die to a charge of infantry? Are demi lances not supposed to be good against armored infantry? If not what is their role and why would anyone in their right mind ever take them then?

    You use them to launch side charges on heavily armored infantry who have engaged with your chaff line. Light cavalry with low AP values would do extremely poorly; high-AP, high-CB shock cavalry, however, will inflict massive damage and break the targeted unit very quickly in that situation, which can give you a decided advantage in the front line fight. Alternatively, you can use them to charge into infantry who are at low Leadership and/or HP from previous combat or missile fire, letting you route then quickly and break through to attack another target. Or you can use them to attack weaker enemy cavalry and break them, giving yourself dominance in the mobility game and the ability to pick your fights as your please.

    Now of course Demigryph lances specifically have been suboptimal for a long time, and probably should get some stat buffs - but my point stands. There are plenty of things high-tier heavy cavalry do well that are not charging headlong into the faces of undamaged, unshaken heavy infantry.
    The problem is every charge will get a few cavalry models stuck. So your very expensive knight units will die to units half their cost, even if you have chaff in front. So why would you ever take expensive cavalry for this job when you can get cheaper knight units like knights of the blazing sun or empire knights which have more unit models. For the game right now there is very little reason to ever take demigryph knights.
    You don't take cheaper units to do those jobs because they don't do them as well.

    Now, as I said, Demigryph Knights/Lances specifically are a bit underpowered for their cost and have been for a long time. But if you want a unit to win a cavalry fight as VC, you take Blood Knights, because Black Knights will lose. If you want a unit to flank charge heavily-armored infantry as Bretonnia you take Questing Knights, because Knights of the Realm would lose. Etc, etc, etc.
  • KIT#5531KIT#5531 Registered Users Posts: 499
    edited July 2021
    eumaies said:

    elite cav need some help for sure.

    I'm unclear though if bestigors (for example) charging cav do extra damage relative to bestigors charging infantry. Would be curious for someone to say if they've found a good way of testing that. Seems relevant for understanding how they might best help cav.

    Yeah the high value cav elite cav is useless. Built range uints and cheap inf to stop the cav and shot them down.
  • DuskyCatDuskyCat Registered Users Posts: 28
    As i see the problem after some observations:
    infantry model, which started they charge atack animation now always hits target, even if it was knocked back. This leads to very "unfair" trade. Then 1 cav model knocks back seweral inf models it does not lands charged melee hit to all of them (AFAIK), cav model only deals small collision damage to knocked models. But in exchange 1 cav model recieves seweral charged melee atacks from knocked inf models.
    For cavalry now would be better, if knockback mechanic was disabled at all.

    Countercharging infantry SHOULD deal charged melee atacks, but only those Inf models who:
    1. Standing on their feet/hooves, not flying in the air
    2. Properly executed their atack animation
    For now countercharge mechanic is broken.
  • Dragonsteel82Dragonsteel82 Registered Users Posts: 222
    I'll post my suggestion to reduce the overall damage spikes being seen:

    Change the charge bonus to include a % effective factor. This factor is based on the following:

    Max Reduction = Min[0.5, X * Mass.1 * Speed.1 / (Mass.1 * Speed.1 + Mass.2 * Speed.2)]

    Obviously vise-versa for the 2nd unit, and where X is the overall reduction factor.

    Essentially, the % effective factor would always be less than 1 and would apply like a damage reduction. So instead of a flat percent, the reduction value is based on speed and mass, giving more powerful cavalry a larger reduction in damage taken. This way, heavier and faster units would have a much higher effective trade over infantry units. This effective factor would only apply to two units charging each other.

    Really it is only a balance ratio of the momentum (not force) of the two objects hitting each other. (F = m*a) is not an appropriate item as the units are not really accelerating towards each other. A better measure would be the impact which is measured as a change in momentum or impact: delta Velocity * Mass = Integral (F*dt) from time 1 to time 2. But for simplicity, doing a ratio of the momentum based on the two units speeds, and the two unit masses, and then applying a % effective factor seems better.

    Something like savage orcs that are supposed to be big and have more momentum would trade differently than some smaller infantry units like goblins.

    The overall damage output of the two units charging each other would drop.

    Now, numbers may need to be tweaked as when I calc it out, the reduction in damage received (impact only) is 11% for the bestigors and 89% for the questing knights.

    I think capping the damage reduction to 50% would be a good start.
This discussion has been closed.