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The Beastmen - What would you change?

LuciferLucifer MemberEngland U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
edited July 2021 in General Discussion
As the title says, and I'll give my own reason for strongly pushing for the disband units at the beginning of the game; which of course as a modder, I can change it, but what would be the best change for two or three units to start with that would please everyone? I'm also a genocidal maniac and enjoyed the chaos too much, so was reluctant to let that go, but here it is. >:)

"Start Units too op"
The quick fix: disband units you do not like or feel it makes the game too easy for you, and recruit the appropriate units yourself. The modding fix requires me to change the startpos file and recompile it every time it needs a change, which makes the first option the best one, and pleases everyone. That said, its not hard to do.

After reading many threads and disagreements I've never really seen a general list of what would be the ideal starting units to begin the campaign with. So what units would you use and why?

The dread system I've already changed and made it for the long haul in mind. You will have a lot to work for, and it will take a lot of time. It will also inhibit your game pace a lot. The items list costs I will be looking at vastly increasing the costs for items, but not sure by how much.





So what would you change for the Beastmen and why, and say what you would change it to or by how many, or would think by how many would be best, for items, recruiting, etc, etc. Keep it constructive.

To-do list:
1. Recruitment turns per unit type or tier. Done.
2. Recruitment capacity. Done.
3. Various unit costs favor or dread, upkeep. Done.
4. Horde growth. Done.
5. Settlement upgrade costs. Done.
6. Rampage/Momentum (script).
7. Ruination (script).
8. Morslieb The Dark Moon (script).
9. Startpos starting units per Beastman legendary lord.

The main most requested items have been done, some in a minor or large way. Further requests welcome.


Legendary lords Dread Cost

Khazrak One Eye 5,500
Malagor the Dark Omen 10,000
Morghur the Shadowgave 8,000
Taurox the Brass Bull 12,000

Heroes Dread Cost

Wargor 900
Gorebull 900
Bray-Shamen 900


Upgrades Dread Cost

Tier 2-Rune-Covered Herdstones Upgrade 1,700
Tier 3-Bone-Strewn Herdstones Upgrade 2,400
Tier 4-Spired Herdstones Upgrade 3,600
Tier 5-Great Herdstones Upgrade 5000


Lords and heroes 5 rank 7,000
Lords & Heroes 10 rank 13,500
Lords and heroes 15 rank 15,000


Horde armies tier 2 building 1,750
Horde armies encampment lvl 2 and den 5,000
Horde armies encampment lvl 2+den and scorched grass plains already constructed 10,500

Item cost changes

Common -4000
Uncommon -8500
Rare -20000
Unique -30000


Recruit time in turns

Giants 2
Feral Manticor 2
Minotaurs 2
Cygor 3
Jabberslythe 3
Ghorgon 4

Favor Upkeep

Lords 250
Jabberslythe 250
Ghorgon 260
Cygor 120
Manticor 40
Minotaurs 25
Chaos Spawn 50
Giant 100

The mod has been finalized with final changes.
The list so far. Want it changed, increased, more unit tiers or types changed? Feedback, please.
The mod is updated to current changes 21/07/2021 22:00gmt.


"Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
Kislev - from darkness to light.19/3

My steam workshop - mods.
Post edited by Lucifer on
«134

Comments

  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    As stated;
    My idea of the item changes, and constructive criticism welcome.




    Like? Yes/No, maybe, could be better, should be more, should be waaaay more?


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
    Kislev - from darkness to light.19/3

    My steam workshop - mods.
  • whatever14whatever14 Registered Users Posts: 464
    just gonna c/p from my thread

    1. they recruit like crazy. right now my the turn 10 you can recruit 6 or 7 units in a single turn in your horde and you get additional recruit slots for herdstone. also there is no recruitment cost. what happens is if the battles go bad you can just disband all your high tier units and get new ones next turn. it doesn't matter if you do that with ungols but once you start doing that with minotaurs, jabber and ghorgon then the battles become pointless. you can just autoresolve everything and recruit new units. solution: cooldown for higher tier units. more valuable the unit, higher the cooldown, for instance; minotaurs -> 10 turn cooldown ghorgon -> 20 turn cooldown

    2. too much growth and too much money. by turn 15 my horde was tier 4 already. no faction should be able to do that. i was constantly packed with money too. it allowed me to get higher tier units way before enemy factions.

    3. taurox starting units. they are simply too strong. taurox alone is strong af, minotaurs are very strong, there is no need for ghorgon in his starting army.

    4. taurox rampage movement. we have all seen what it can do. no questions asked it's the most powerful thing in the game by far. fix is simple, limit it to 1 use per rampage ciclus. once you reach last stage of the rampage you get to use it. once you used it rampage resets. having an extra move is extremely strong (and i admit fun) but yeah moving through whole map in one turn is plain stupid.

    these are glaring issues, much bigger than dread cost imo.

    recruitment -> growth -> economy

    recruitment is the biggest problem. you can change everyrhing about them but while you can recruit t5 units in one turn, one the fly, for no cost and with such a huge capacity, bm will remain a joke.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 10,371
    This looks better. Slowing the Beastmen campaign down is a priority. The actual rework itself is good.

    There is no reason that Beastmen should be able to recruit faster than Tomb Kings that early on in the campaign; since thats supposed to be the Tomb King's advantage.

  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    edited July 2021
    Amonkhet said:

    This looks better. Slowing the Beastmen campaign down is a priority. The actual rework itself is good.

    There is no reason that Beastmen should be able to recruit faster than Tomb Kings that early on in the campaign; since thats supposed to be the Tomb King's advantage.

    I agree with this, and that's why I've pretty much been brutal in the dread changes. I did feel you could get too much too quickly, and now you have to rely on normal lords more, and it will be a big loss to lose one. I like the Tomb Kings also and feel that to be their uniqueness. So I will be making further changes as it goes on.


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
    Kislev - from darkness to light.19/3

    My steam workshop - mods.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    edited July 2021

    just gonna c/p from my thread

    1. they recruit like crazy. right now my the turn 10 you can recruit 6 or 7 units in a single turn in your horde and you get additional recruit slots for herdstone. also there is no recruitment cost. what happens is if the battles go bad you can just disband all your high tier units and get new ones next turn. it doesn't matter if you do that with ungols but once you start doing that with minotaurs, jabber and ghorgon then the battles become pointless. you can just autoresolve everything and recruit new units. solution: cooldown for higher tier units. more valuable the unit, higher the cooldown, for instance; minotaurs -> 10 turn cooldown ghorgon -> 20 turn cooldown

    2. too much growth and too much money. by turn 15 my horde was tier 4 already. no faction should be able to do that. i was constantly packed with money too. it allowed me to get higher tier units way before enemy factions.

    3. taurox starting units. they are simply too strong. taurox alone is strong af, minotaurs are very strong, there is no need for ghorgon in his starting army.

    4. taurox rampage movement. we have all seen what it can do. no questions asked it's the most powerful thing in the game by far. fix is simple, limit it to 1 use per rampage ciclus. once you reach last stage of the rampage you get to use it. once you used it rampage resets. having an extra move is extremely strong (and i admit fun) but yeah moving through whole map in one turn is plain stupid.

    these are glaring issues, much bigger than dread cost imo.

    recruitment -> growth -> economy

    recruitment is the biggest problem. you can change everyrhing about them but while you can recruit t5 units in one turn, one the fly, for no cost and with such a huge capacity, bm will remain a joke.

    Trust me, after a few days reading all these posts. I get it, I really do. The question still stands, what would you change each item on your list to? Also, which units would you feel would be the best starting units and why?


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
    Kislev - from darkness to light.19/3

    My steam workshop - mods.
  • whatever14whatever14 Registered Users Posts: 464
    edited July 2021
    Lucifer said:

    just gonna c/p from my thread

    1. they recruit like crazy. right now my the turn 10 you can recruit 6 or 7 units in a single turn in your horde and you get additional recruit slots for herdstone. also there is no recruitment cost. what happens is if the battles go bad you can just disband all your high tier units and get new ones next turn. it doesn't matter if you do that with ungols but once you start doing that with minotaurs, jabber and ghorgon then the battles become pointless. you can just autoresolve everything and recruit new units. solution: cooldown for higher tier units. more valuable the unit, higher the cooldown, for instance; minotaurs -> 10 turn cooldown ghorgon -> 20 turn cooldown

    2. too much growth and too much money. by turn 15 my horde was tier 4 already. no faction should be able to do that. i was constantly packed with money too. it allowed me to get higher tier units way before enemy factions.

    3. taurox starting units. they are simply too strong. taurox alone is strong af, minotaurs are very strong, there is no need for ghorgon in his starting army.

    4. taurox rampage movement. we have all seen what it can do. no questions asked it's the most powerful thing in the game by far. fix is simple, limit it to 1 use per rampage ciclus. once you reach last stage of the rampage you get to use it. once you used it rampage resets. having an extra move is extremely strong (and i admit fun) but yeah moving through whole map in one turn is plain stupid.

    these are glaring issues, much bigger than dread cost imo.

    recruitment -> growth -> economy

    recruitment is the biggest problem. you can change everyrhing about them but while you can recruit t5 units in one turn, one the fly, for no cost and with such a huge capacity, bm will remain a joke.

    Trust me, after a few days reading all these posts. I get it, I really do. The question still stands, what would you change each item on your list to? Also, which units would you feel would be the best starting units and why?

    Also; I've already changed the costs for the lords settlements. It's much higher now.


    when it comes to recruitment there are few things that can be done:

    - flat decrease in recruitment capacity. it might be better to tie more recruitment capacity to herdstones than to horde itself. that way you can't recruit huge amounts of units with many armies. it's also kinda loreful, more bm gathering around herstone if you care about that.
    - put high tier units on cooldown after recruiting or at least increase recruitment time. there is no reason ghorgon or jabber should be recruited in 1 turn

    - when it comes to growth, idk, rage increases growth but it doesn't say by how much, but i would def cut it by half. rn you can have t5 building by turn 25-30.

    - starting units, for taurox 1 minotaur is enough, instead of ghorgon you can give him pigs since he focuses on rushing enemies.

    - instead of inflating price of everything i would rather cut the money you get for defeating settlement. you can get no problem 8-10k a turn for destroying settlements. you increased price of items, but buildings still have same cost.

    -rampage 1 extra move per ciclus, no more, it's extremely strong.
  • NeodeinosNeodeinos Registered Users Posts: 14,475
    - Make high tier units such as Minotaurs, Ghorgon, Jabberslythe, Giant, etc... take more than one turn to recruit. Currently if you make a mistake and get one of those units killed then you simply aren't punished. Why should you care if you lose one of the strongest unit you can get if you can just recruit it in one turn ? It's even a better choice to disband units and recruit them again instead of waiting them to replenish, this is absurd.

    - Increase the Dread cost for increasing caps for mid/high tier units, they are way too fast to get. By increasing the dread cost then you are forced to use lower tier units, indirectly nerfing the high tier ones without nerfing the units themselves.

    - Hero Dread cost should scale so you can't spam them. You can just spam level 15 heroes, it's too much.

    - Nerf the Ungors, they are meant to be your very weak units that just hold the line but they are a bit overtuned right now, even against Savage Orcs I had no issue holding the line in very early while they would get destroyed before this rework. Ungor archers should also be capped. As a comparison Tomb Kings uncapped warriors have half as much of leadership, longer melee interval (they attack less frequently), less armour piercing, less health, less charge bonus, less speed. If you're going to let the Ungors be free without any upkeep then it should've been nerfed a bit to compensate.

    This should make the player have to take meaningful decisions instead of just spamming gorghon because you get Dread too fast. There are probably more that I would change about the campaign, this is just a basis of an idea as I haven't thought it through a lot yet.

  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    edited July 2021
    Neodeinos said:

    - Make high tier units such as Minotaurs, Ghorgon, Jabberslythe, Giant, etc... take more than one turn to recruit. Currently if you make a mistake and get one of those units killed then you simply aren't punished. Why should you care if you lose one of the strongest unit you can get if you can just recruit it in one turn ? It's even a better choice to disband units and recruit them again instead of waiting them to replenish, this is absurd.

    - Increase the Dread cost for increasing caps for mid/high tier units, they are way too fast to get. By increasing the dread cost then you are forced to use lower tier units, indirectly nerfing the high tier ones without nerfing the units themselves.

    - Hero Dread cost should scale so you can't spam them. You can just spam level 15 heroes, it's too much.

    - Nerf the Ungors, they are meant to be your very weak units that just hold the line but they are a bit overtuned right now, even against Savage Orcs I had no issue holding the line in very early while they would get destroyed before this rework. Ungor archers should also be capped. As a comparison Tomb Kings uncapped warriors have half as much of leadership, longer melee interval (they attack less frequently), less armour piercing, less health, less charge bonus, less speed. If you're going to let the Ungors be free without any upkeep then it should've been nerfed a bit to compensate.

    This should make the player have to take meaningful decisions instead of just spamming gorghon because you get Dread too fast. There are probably more that I would change about the campaign, this is just a basis of an idea as I haven't thought it through a lot yet.

    Okay, regarding the recruitment capacity, yes it can be changed. However, when you start changing other items such as recruitment times and you're already recruiting for multiple armies in the same region, you may be stuck there for a long time, maybe even more than 10 turns and I'm not sure I want to wait that long or anyone else. That said, maybe with some tweaks it would improve. It's a trade off as is fast recruitment for one army in one region, but I get what you mean.

    I've already increased the initial dread costs for legendary lords and heroes and some units. Also look at the pictures in the post to get a clearer look.


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
    Kislev - from darkness to light.19/3

    My steam workshop - mods.
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,756
    edited July 2021
    Simple changes:
    -Less recruitment slots
    -More turns to recruit high tier units
    -Make OP craftable items craftable only once (at least the regen item and the cygor summon item)
    -Increase dread costs for extra stacks
    -Make lord recruitment cost a bit of dread

    Complex changes:

    I think the new dread system is unfortunately dysfunctional. There's almost no way for you to lose power after you've gained power as the cap increases are permanent, and you can easily re-recruit the armies, so not matter how much you lose it's super easy to bounce back at the same strength as before. Without a massive rework, units lost should at least result in some temporary cap reduction, effectively implementing a "cooldown" on units. But tbh I don't think it's a good system in the first place, caps should be tied to something you can lose. I have a number of ideas, but don't think it could ever happen as anything other than a mod, because CA is unlikely to do a major overhaul again.

    I'm not sure why most people are praising the BM rework so much, in my opinion it's vastly inferior to the Wood Elf rework.

  • NeodeinosNeodeinos Registered Users Posts: 14,475
    Lucifer said:

    Neodeinos said:

    - Make high tier units such as Minotaurs, Ghorgon, Jabberslythe, Giant, etc... take more than one turn to recruit. Currently if you make a mistake and get one of those units killed then you simply aren't punished. Why should you care if you lose one of the strongest unit you can get if you can just recruit it in one turn ? It's even a better choice to disband units and recruit them again instead of waiting them to replenish, this is absurd.

    - Increase the Dread cost for increasing caps for mid/high tier units, they are way too fast to get. By increasing the dread cost then you are forced to use lower tier units, indirectly nerfing the high tier ones without nerfing the units themselves.

    - Hero Dread cost should scale so you can't spam them. You can just spam level 15 heroes, it's too much.

    - Nerf the Ungors, they are meant to be your very weak units that just hold the line but they are a bit overtuned right now, even against Savage Orcs I had no issue holding the line in very early while they would get destroyed before this rework. Ungor archers should also be capped. As a comparison Tomb Kings uncapped warriors have half as much of leadership, longer melee interval (they attack less frequently), less armour piercing, less health, less charge bonus, less speed. If you're going to let the Ungors be free without any upkeep then it should've been nerfed a bit to compensate.

    This should make the player have to take meaningful decisions instead of just spamming gorghon because you get Dread too fast. There are probably more that I would change about the campaign, this is just a basis of an idea as I haven't thought it through a lot yet.

    Okay, regarding the recruitment capacity, yes it can be changed. However, when you start changing other items such as recruitment times and you're already recruiting for multiple armies in the same region, you may be stuck there for a long time, maybe even more than 10 turns and I'm not sure I want to wait that long or anyone else. That said, maybe with some tweaks it would improve. It's a trade off as is fast recruitment for one army in one region, but I get what you mean.

    I've already increased the initial dread costs for legendary lords and heroes and some units. Also look at the pictures in the post to get a clearer look.
    I don't really mind the recruitment capacity but the recruitment times have to be changed. Beastmen is currently the only race that can recruit every high tier unit in a single turn. This is simply absurd.

  • whatever14whatever14 Registered Users Posts: 464
    Lucifer said:

    Neodeinos said:

    - Make high tier units such as Minotaurs, Ghorgon, Jabberslythe, Giant, etc... take more than one turn to recruit. Currently if you make a mistake and get one of those units killed then you simply aren't punished. Why should you care if you lose one of the strongest unit you can get if you can just recruit it in one turn ? It's even a better choice to disband units and recruit them again instead of waiting them to replenish, this is absurd.

    - Increase the Dread cost for increasing caps for mid/high tier units, they are way too fast to get. By increasing the dread cost then you are forced to use lower tier units, indirectly nerfing the high tier ones without nerfing the units themselves.

    - Hero Dread cost should scale so you can't spam them. You can just spam level 15 heroes, it's too much.

    - Nerf the Ungors, they are meant to be your very weak units that just hold the line but they are a bit overtuned right now, even against Savage Orcs I had no issue holding the line in very early while they would get destroyed before this rework. Ungor archers should also be capped. As a comparison Tomb Kings uncapped warriors have half as much of leadership, longer melee interval (they attack less frequently), less armour piercing, less health, less charge bonus, less speed. If you're going to let the Ungors be free without any upkeep then it should've been nerfed a bit to compensate.

    This should make the player have to take meaningful decisions instead of just spamming gorghon because you get Dread too fast. There are probably more that I would change about the campaign, this is just a basis of an idea as I haven't thought it through a lot yet.

    Okay, regarding the recruitment capacity, yes it can be changed. However, when you start changing other items such as recruitment times and you're already recruiting for multiple armies in the same region, you may be stuck there for a long time, maybe even more than 10 turns and I'm not sure I want to wait that long or anyone else. That said, maybe with some tweaks it would improve. It's a trade off as is fast recruitment for one army in one region, but I get what you mean.

    I've already increased the initial dread costs for legendary lords and heroes and some units. Also look at the pictures in the post to get a clearer look.
    rn every horde has its own recruitment pool so that won't happen unless you want to recruit high tier units from a herdstone. in that case you shouldn't be able to fill more armies in just few turns from a single herdstone.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    edited July 2021

    Simple changes:
    -Less recruitment slots
    -More turns to recruit high tier units
    -Make OP craftable items craftable only once (at least the regen item and the cygor summon item)
    -Increase dread costs for extra stacks
    -Make lord recruitment cost a bit of dread

    Complex changes:

    I think the new dread system is unfortunately dysfunctional. There's almost no way for you to lose power after you've gained power as the cap increases are permanent, and you can easily re-recruit the armies, so not matter how much you lose it's super easy to bounce back at the same strength as before. Without a massive rework, units lost should at least result in some temporary cap reduction, effectively implementing a "cooldown" on units. But tbh I don't think it's a good system in the first place, caps should be tied to something you can lose. I have a number of ideas, but don't think it could ever happen as anything other than a mod, because CA is unlikely to do a major overhaul again.

    I'm not sure why most people are praising the BM rework so much, in my opinion it's vastly inferior to the Wood Elf rework.

    Much of them changes I've already covered and added. It will cost a huge amount of dread for each legendary lord. It will also make normal lords more viable and losing one will be a big deal. The items I've already increased the cost so if you get an item stolen during combat, you will feel that pain in a much bigger way.

    The other things such as recruitment times I'll look in to but I don't want to overdo it. Spending too long doing nothing really isn't that much fun, but its a trade-off for a loss so, lets see how it pans out. I've also increased the costs for increasing capacity for some of the units I've seen talked about a lot. So, increasing the capacity of them will be a bit harder especially tied in to the other dread costs. >:)


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
    Kislev - from darkness to light.19/3

    My steam workshop - mods.
  • AraethonAraethon Registered Users Posts: 835
    My two cents would be:
    1. Make Dread now more aligned as a recruitment cost, in that you can use it as you do now to increase the total slots of available units, but you don't gain those free slots back if the unit is say disbanded or destroyed. This mean's that you won't be able to casually lose your high tier units, as they now cost dread.
    2. As previous commenters have stated as well, increased recruit timers are definitely necessary. I'm not sure if it should be the traditional method of 1-3 turns depending on the unit tier, but something definitely needs to be done in regards to you recruiting your jabber/ghorgon in a single turn.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    edited July 2021

    Lucifer said:

    Neodeinos said:

    - Make high tier units such as Minotaurs, Ghorgon, Jabberslythe, Giant, etc... take more than one turn to recruit. Currently if you make a mistake and get one of those units killed then you simply aren't punished. Why should you care if you lose one of the strongest unit you can get if you can just recruit it in one turn ? It's even a better choice to disband units and recruit them again instead of waiting them to replenish, this is absurd.

    - Increase the Dread cost for increasing caps for mid/high tier units, they are way too fast to get. By increasing the dread cost then you are forced to use lower tier units, indirectly nerfing the high tier ones without nerfing the units themselves.

    - Hero Dread cost should scale so you can't spam them. You can just spam level 15 heroes, it's too much.

    - Nerf the Ungors, they are meant to be your very weak units that just hold the line but they are a bit overtuned right now, even against Savage Orcs I had no issue holding the line in very early while they would get destroyed before this rework. Ungor archers should also be capped. As a comparison Tomb Kings uncapped warriors have half as much of leadership, longer melee interval (they attack less frequently), less armour piercing, less health, less charge bonus, less speed. If you're going to let the Ungors be free without any upkeep then it should've been nerfed a bit to compensate.

    This should make the player have to take meaningful decisions instead of just spamming gorghon because you get Dread too fast. There are probably more that I would change about the campaign, this is just a basis of an idea as I haven't thought it through a lot yet.

    Okay, regarding the recruitment capacity, yes it can be changed. However, when you start changing other items such as recruitment times and you're already recruiting for multiple armies in the same region, you may be stuck there for a long time, maybe even more than 10 turns and I'm not sure I want to wait that long or anyone else. That said, maybe with some tweaks it would improve. It's a trade off as is fast recruitment for one army in one region, but I get what you mean.

    I've already increased the initial dread costs for legendary lords and heroes and some units. Also look at the pictures in the post to get a clearer look.
    rn every horde has its own recruitment pool so that won't happen unless you want to recruit high tier units from a herdstone. in that case you shouldn't be able to fill more armies in just few turns from a single herdstone.
    This is something I've been looking at. Just how much do I reduce the horde capacity and other things. You can of course spec lords to increase this anyway. However just how much you can recruit per turn and I've seen around ten slots using both the horde and local, so If you change it for one army it will pretty much change it for all, so it's a pretty hefty change especially if you're recruiting for more than one army in a region. I think with some fine tuning, we can get it right in a way many will agree with.

    Each horde settlement I could reduce the capacity of it, and certain units perhaps add a favor cost. It's something I have been pondering on much. I could also increase each horde settlement upgrade cost vastly also.


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
    Kislev - from darkness to light.19/3

    My steam workshop - mods.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    edited July 2021
    Araethon said:

    My two cents would be:
    1. Make Dread now more aligned as a recruitment cost, in that you can use it as you do now to increase the total slots of available units, but you don't gain those free slots back if the unit is say disbanded or destroyed. This mean's that you won't be able to casually lose your high tier units, as they now cost dread.
    2. As previous commenters have stated as well, increased recruit timers are definitely necessary. I'm not sure if it should be the traditional method of 1-3 turns depending on the unit tier, but something definitely needs to be done in regards to you recruiting your jabber/ghorgon in a single turn.

    Interesting, I like the idea.

    So also add a dread cost to the actual recruitment of the unit. Yes, the recruitment times I'm reluctant at changing, for my own selfish reasons, but I'll look anyway, because seriously, you could be stuck in a region doing nothing for a long long time if I over-do it.


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
    Kislev - from darkness to light.19/3

    My steam workshop - mods.
  • JirzikJirzik Registered Users Posts: 376
    My ideas what to change:

    BM not having Slugtongue, Ungrol, Ghorros and Moonclaw change to BM having Slugtongue, Ungrol, Ghorros and Moonclaw. Right now we are missing more lords than units.

    "Wand of summoning two Cygors" buyable from turn one change to "Wand of summoning two Cygors" buyable in middle game.

    Re-recruit doomstack very next turn you were defeated change to Maybe keep recruiting cost without upkeep? IDK this one is tricky.

    Number two and three are not that important. I'm terrified of the day when AI starts using all the "toys" it has at its disposal. But that day is far far in the future so only number one really matter.
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,756
    edited July 2021
    Yeah, I like the idea of units having a dread and/or favour recruitment cost (except for the basic ungors maybe). It should be constant though, not scale like the cap increase cost. It's still not ideal imo but simple enough and fixes the most pressing issue with recruitment.

    Other than that, I think horde buildings and some landmarks giving a little bit of unit caps while making unit caps through dread a bit more expensive might be a good idea, as you need to maintain the herdstones and the hordes to maintain the cap.

    If all Wood Elf forests had unique herdstones that provided unit caps it would also give BM a reason to fight WE over others.

  • MisterSquidMisterSquid Florida, USARegistered Users Posts: 2,013
    I actually think their units should have a Favor cost to recruit, but they're still free to upkeep. That way, you're somewhat restricted by the amount of cash you have, and unreliant on sacking and raiding to build up your army. You can't just recruit a 20 stack for free, and you'd be more careful not to lose expensive units, but they're not bleeding you dry every minute they're in your army.
    Remember: there's no reason to get angry on the forums. Be polite and respectful towards other people's opinions, even if you disagree.

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  • Ben1990Ben1990 Registered Users Posts: 1,814
    Lucifer said:

    As the title says, and I'll give my own reason for strongly pushing for the disband units at the beginning of the game; which of course as a modder, I can change it, but what would be the best change for two or three units to start with that would please everyone?

    "Start Units too op"
    The quick fix: disband units you do not like or feel it makes the game too easy for you, and recruit the appropriate units yourself. The modding fix requires me to change the startpos file and recompile it every time it needs a change, which makes the first option the best one, and pleases everyone. That said, its not hard to do.

    After reading many threads and disagreements I've never really seen a general list of what would be the ideal starting units to begin the campaign with. So what units would you use and why?

    The dread system I've already changed and made it for the long haul in mind. You will have a lot to work for, and it will take a lot of time. It will also inhibit your game pace a lot. The items list costs I will be looking at vastly increasing the costs for items, but not sure by how much.






    So what would you change for the Beastmen and why, and say what you would change it to or by how many, or would think by how many would be best, for items, recruiting, etc, etc. Keep it constructive.
    Add more units they had access to via Monstrous Arcanum and Storm of Magic and who fit in thematically. Also add back Chaos Trolls and Dragon Ogre units like they had in Beasts of Chaos.
  • roekkumroekkum Registered Users Posts: 422
    The one really, really welcome change in the rework are herdstones and bloodgrounds, so you not only have an area of influence and a path of destruction, but also so that the AI can't resettle easy.

    The way recruitment works right now however is a mistake. It is my main beef after having played half a campaign. I quit because it was neither fun nor meaningful. As Morghur I could attack Altdorf by turn 20 or so with an army of 14 buffed Chaos Spawn and 4 Giants and just retrain them afterwards in my invisible stance and go on autoresolving.

    Atleast in the old hordes there was a limit on your roster in the early game because it cost growth, not only money, to construct buildings. Now there's nothing else to use money on, since training and upkeep is free, so you get top tier very quickly.

    It is also very easy now to get new lords/hordes, and with free recruitment and all those recruitment slots there's really no stopping the pain train.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,601
    I would take the minos from Taurox initial army, and reduce the recruitment cap at the start (maybe add techs to increase it later: he recruits to fast while on his blood grounds.


    Also, I would nerf his rampage to avoid the more cheesy 15 battles turns. I would not take out that possibility entirely, but would make it ultra difficult.
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,756
    For Taurox rampage, I would implement some stackable debuff applied every time you use it. Reducing both combat stats this turn and replenishment you'll get going into the next turn.

  • peabodyestatepeabodyestate Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    edited July 2021
    I feel Malagor is in a great place balance wise right now - he should simply be the template from which the rest should be balanced.

    As for the Brass Bull, its fine that he is stomping around lusting for death - but he cannot die. Whats particularly odd is that he should perma die if he gets a conker to the throat.

    So...... For Taurox:
    Option 1) Give no SEM at beginning, or have different starting armies for different difficulties (No SEM in legendary).
    Option 2) Keep him OP, but make sure he dies regularly. Perhaps if he dies he is reset to skill level 1 or something. The point im making is we only have half the deal - we have the brass bit, but none of the throat stuff.

    An argument could be made that the stomping lusting Brass Bull does not ambush, does not set traps, does not dilly dally - rather charing into battle with no control whatsoever. Could ambush/ hide go? I dont know the lore.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    edited July 2021
    Jirzik said:

    My ideas what to change:

    BM not having Slugtongue, Ungrol, Ghorros and Moonclaw change to BM having Slugtongue, Ungrol, Ghorros and Moonclaw. Right now we are missing more lords than units.

    "Wand of summoning two Cygors" buyable from turn one change to "Wand of summoning two Cygors" buyable in middle game.

    Re-recruit doomstack very next turn you were defeated change to Maybe keep recruiting cost without upkeep? IDK this one is tricky.

    Number two and three are not that important. I'm terrified of the day when AI starts using all the "toys" it has at its disposal. But that day is far far in the future so only number one really matter.

    This is CA's department when it comes to bringing in new lords. I can make custom legendary or heroes, but they can do a far better job of it than me. Also, I have enough to do for now. I've added a to-do list that covers all of the most popular change requests. As for toys - I could perhaps allow Taurox ai use the rampage on you all. Mwahahaha >:)


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  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    edited July 2021
    Right so, getting on with probably the most requested and discussed one of all, the recruitment turns per unit type. I've had a good read of the posts so far and made a to-do list on main post.




    So, this is only recruiting for one army, and it's three units from horde and two from local. How do you all feel about that, does it look right, good, bad, bit over the top?

    Recruit time in turns:
    Giants 2
    Feral Manticor 2
    Minotaurs 2
    Tuskor Chariots 2
    Cygor 3
    Jabberslythe 3
    Ghorgon 4

    The list so far.

    I've also lowered the growth and recruitment slots from the settlements. This picture, from a tier 5.




    Thoughts and feedback please.
    Post edited by Lucifer on


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
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  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,756
    Looks pretty good to me.

    I think +3 recruit slots at t5 herdstone is still a bit high (I assume you'll have 5 local? that gives you 8 slots with your horde at least).

    Manticores probably don't deserve 2 turn recruitment.

  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177

    Looks pretty good to me.

    I think +3 recruit slots at t5 herdstone is still a bit high (I assume you'll have 5 local? that gives you 8 slots with your horde at least).

    Manticores probably don't deserve 2 turn recruitment.

    I actually reduced it by 2 slots, as it was 5 slots base. It seems okay, because I've locked it down now to tier type per turns, so trash units will take one turn, while valuable ones two or more. Just need to make a list by tier per turn so I have a ballpark to make it from, so feed back is good regarding the tier or unit types.


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
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  • whatever14whatever14 Registered Users Posts: 464
    edited July 2021
    i still think this is too much recruitment capacity.

    i don't think bm should deviate in that department from other factions. they can already recruit much more than other factions considering they can have more armies.

    let's take a look at other factions. as a base they can recruit 3 units + 1 from commandment. let's say base is 4. i think that should be a base for every horde.

    every extra recruitment slot should come from hordestone itself. since you can get t5 herstone instantly i think it would be better to tie extra recruitment to building you have to actually build inside herdstones. they have 3 tiers and you get +1 for each.

    in total you have 7 recruitment slots wit extra if you really want from skill tree.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 2,177
    edited July 2021

    i still think this is too much recruitment capacity.

    i don't think bm should deviate in that department from other factions. they can already recruit much more than other factions considering they can have more armies.

    let's take a look at other factions. as a base they can recruit 3 units + 1 from commandment. let's say base is 4. i think that should be a base for every horde.

    every extra recruitment slot should come from hordestone itself. since you can get t5 herstone instantly i think it would be better to tie extra recruitment to building you have to actually build inside herdstones. they have 3 tiers and you get +1 for each.

    in total you have 7 recruitment slots wit extra if you really want from skill tree.

    I kind-of agree with this, but I am trying to make the herdstone feel unique as it does give the extra capacity on a special settlement and that's worth fighting for, especially at tier 5. With an army not in the herdstones range, you are limited to just three recruitment slots, base. More, if you spec for it. Even with that, you're still now locked behind the recruitment tier types per turn, sure you'll get trash units quickly, but you'll have to wait for the good stuff, four or more turns. Let's see how others see it also.


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
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  • Surge_2Surge_2 Registered Users Posts: 9,704
    edited July 2021
    I think you are on the right path.

    Recruitment should be improved at the herdstone, its whole point is to serve as a focal point in the lore.

    I would dramatically slow recruitment away from the herdstone, 1 turn SEM recruitment is stupid.
    I would increase the cost on dread unit caps.
    I would again make recruitment easier at the stone, with a possible buff for recruitment after enacting a ritual.

    Thats what I would do to slow things down a bit.

    EDIT: I was thinking yesterday, that the Vampire system of raising units could also be in play here. There is no reason we should be able to just plop down 5 fresh Mino units in a turn, every turn, if we like. That makes no sense.
    Glory matters not.

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