How are forest spirits made ( lore wise)

Nightengale

I want to know how forest spirits are made.

Are they made by athel loren and are put in a tree and need to wake up like durthu and the others did?

What happens to the forest spirit if it dies?

Does it go back to athel loren and find a new tree or is it gone forever?
Lost in the warp to be preyed upon by daemons?

Docpain222#3241

Well you see, when one tree loves another tree, they connect roots, during this process two becomes one, and the spirit of the forest receives a new member. Just joking, I'm also interested in how this happens... my guess would be when a tree or wood elve dies, that may have been super powerful, it can come back as a spirit?

sykall#1105

There is sadly never a real explanation how this happened and where Athel Lorens spirits come from originally. Only Tree Kin are made from the souls of deceased Wood Elves. The rest is a mystery as is Athel Lorens origin itself.

My personal theory is that Athel Loren is akin to a autonomus terraforming machine created by the Old Ones. Whilst it was not stated that the forest was directly created by the Old Ones it must be part of the Great Plan. Otherwose this forest could not have prospered so much under their reign. And it must be adaptive, as the forest accepted the WE under its banner.

Following this allegory the Forest Spirits are akin to independent AIs in service of this greater entitiy. They can drive external bodies (dryads/Treemen) to fulllfill purposes and bring up creative solutions the Forest could not do alone. E.g. defending the woods, purifying them from corruption, interacting with mortals etc. Pp.
This could mean that forest spirits are created or spawned by the forest itself. Probably in regular intervalls like the Lizardmen. Depending on the purpose of the spirits some are then taking over a mortal form and become dryads, Treemen.

At the same time Wood elves were adopted by the Forest and are part of the Weave, the natural balance of life and death. And when they die, their souls are absorbed by it and by extension Athel Loren.
As the Tree kin example shows elven souls can be repurposed by the weave to create tree kin. By exeggeratiom I would thus say that Athel Loren is absorbing the elven souls into its data base and remoulding them into a new, servicable form. And maybe WE souls are also an foundation for other forest spirits after their integration into the Athel Loren complex

Edit: lizardmen are regulary spawned not beastmen...

Maelas

I remember an excessively cool piece of lore. When Daemons first invaded Ulthuan and went to Avelorn, they got confused as to why Tree Spirit attacked them, because they thought they were weird demons.

Basically, Tree Spirits are to Athel Loren what Daemons are to the Chaos Realm !

Maelas

(Which means that technically, you could consider Athel Loren itself a minor chaos god in its own right, with its own goals and own agency)

General_Hijalti#1213

sykall said:

There is sadly never a real explanation how this happened and where Athel Lorens spirits come from originally. Only Tree Kin are made from the souls of deceased Wood Elves. The rest is a mystery as is Athel Lorens origin itself.

My personal theory is that Athel Loren is akin to a autonomus terraforming machine created by the Old Ones. Whilst it was not stated that the forest was directly created by the Old Ones it must be part of the Great Plan. Otherwose this forest could not have prospered so much under their reign. And it must be adaptive, as the forest accepted the WE under its banner.

Following this allegory the Forest Spirits are akin to independent AIs in service of this greater entitiy. They can drive external bodies (dryads/Treemen) to fulllfill purposes and bring up creative solutions the Forest could not do alone. E.g. defending the woods, purifying them from corruption, interacting with mortals etc. Pp.
This could mean that forest spirits are created or spawned by the forest itself. Probably in regular intervalls like the Lizardmen. Depending on the purpose of the spirits some are then taking over a mortal form and become dryads, Treemen.

At the same time Wood elves were adopted by the Forest and are part of the Weave, the natural balance of life and death. And when they die, their souls are absorbed by it and by extension Athel Loren.
As the Tree kin example shows elven souls can be repurposed by the weave to create tree kin. By exeggeratiom I would thus say that Athel Loren is absorbing the elven souls into its data base and remoulding them into a new, servicable form. And maybe WE souls are also an foundation for other forest spirits after their integration into the Athel Loren complex

Edit: lizardmen are regulary spawned not beastmen...

Pretty sure I have seen the great seeding of athel loren by the old ones mentioned in lore

Otters007#7127

Maelas said:

I remember an excessively cool piece of lore. When Daemons first invaded Ulthuan and went to Avelorn, they got confused as to why Tree Spirit attacked them, because they thought they were weird demons.

Basically, Tree Spirits are to Athel Loren what Daemons are to the Chaos Realm !

That is cool! Love the idea of them being demons in a sense.

Sir_Godspeed#8395

sykall said:

There is sadly never a real explanation how this happened and where Athel Lorens spirits come from originally. Only Tree Kin are made from the souls of deceased Wood Elves. The rest is a mystery as is Athel Lorens origin itself.

My personal theory is that Athel Loren is akin to a autonomus terraforming machine created by the Old Ones. Whilst it was not stated that the forest was directly created by the Old Ones it must be part of the Great Plan. Otherwose this forest could not have prospered so much under their reign. And it must be adaptive, as the forest accepted the WE under its banner.

Following this allegory the Forest Spirits are akin to independent AIs in service of this greater entitiy. They can drive external bodies (dryads/Treemen) to fulllfill purposes and bring up creative solutions the Forest could not do alone. E.g. defending the woods, purifying them from corruption, interacting with mortals etc. Pp.
This could mean that forest spirits are created or spawned by the forest itself. Probably in regular intervalls like the Lizardmen. Depending on the purpose of the spirits some are then taking over a mortal form and become dryads, Treemen.

At the same time Wood elves were adopted by the Forest and are part of the Weave, the natural balance of life and death. And when they die, their souls are absorbed by it and by extension Athel Loren.
As the Tree kin example shows elven souls can be repurposed by the weave to create tree kin. By exeggeratiom I would thus say that Athel Loren is absorbing the elven souls into its data base and remoulding them into a new, servicable form. And maybe WE souls are also an foundation for other forest spirits after their integration into the Athel Loren complex

Edit: lizardmen are regulary spawned not beastmen...

Doesn't Athel Loren and the Treemen PREDATE the Old Ones?

Mr_Finley7#4571

@sykall i have the same head canon. I also lump the Ancient Widow spirit of the land of Kislev into the same category of a kind of “programmed” environmental intelligence.

@Sir_Godspeed you could very well be right.

Anyone know of a lore quote to clarify?

sykall#1105

Sir_Godspeed said:

sykall said:

There is sadly never a real explanation how this happened and where Athel Lorens spirits come from originally. Only Tree Kin are made from the souls of deceased Wood Elves. The rest is a mystery as is Athel Lorens origin itself.

My personal theory is that Athel Loren is akin to a autonomus terraforming machine created by the Old Ones. Whilst it was not stated that the forest was directly created by the Old Ones it must be part of the Great Plan. Otherwose this forest could not have prospered so much under their reign. And it must be adaptive, as the forest accepted the WE under its banner.

Following this allegory the Forest Spirits are akin to independent AIs in service of this greater entitiy. They can drive external bodies (dryads/Treemen) to fulllfill purposes and bring up creative solutions the Forest could not do alone. E.g. defending the woods, purifying them from corruption, interacting with mortals etc. Pp.
This could mean that forest spirits are created or spawned by the forest itself. Probably in regular intervalls like the Lizardmen. Depending on the purpose of the spirits some are then taking over a mortal form and become dryads, Treemen.

At the same time Wood elves were adopted by the Forest and are part of the Weave, the natural balance of life and death. And when they die, their souls are absorbed by it and by extension Athel Loren.
As the Tree kin example shows elven souls can be repurposed by the weave to create tree kin. By exeggeratiom I would thus say that Athel Loren is absorbing the elven souls into its data base and remoulding them into a new, servicable form. And maybe WE souls are also an foundation for other forest spirits after their integration into the Athel Loren complex

Edit: lizardmen are regulary spawned not beastmen...

Doesn't Athel Loren and the Treemen PREDATE the Old Ones?

Not sure. Many things from the time of the Old Ones is vague. But Athel Loren must be part of the Old Ones plan somehow.
They could have created it. Or they could have seen it akin to dragons. Useful natural assets. Or something in between, e.g. that the forest was in a primitive state and the Old Ones uplifted it into its current form.
But IIRC the lore is contadictory here and there.

Kouran_Darkhand#6365

They were always daemon-like for me.
They even shared many rules in the TT.

Itharus#3127

Maelas said:

(Which means that technically, you could consider Athel Loren itself a minor chaos god in its own right, with its own goals and own agency)

Gotta go with this one.

Also, I think Athel Loren was there from the start, wasn't it? Don't think the Old Ones put it in.

The WHFB world had several sentient and powerful races already on it when the Old Ones came. The Old Ones committed mass genocide and reshaped the world, more or less. They are a bunch of murderous bastards, when you get right down to it. Hell, Saurus were designed JUST to commit global genocide. Some of the more powerful ruins and artifacts in WHFB are actually ruins that predate the coming of the old ones, lol. Dirt rises fast, though, over the millennia... much as with real life, history gets buried.

Bastilean#7242

Does that make Orion a Daemon Prince?

Seswatha#7633

When a papa forest spirit and a mama forest spirit love each other very much a stork brings them a baby forest spirit.

Loupi#8512

ancient treeman are like greater demons, dryads are like the basic demons, but made (maybe) by the old ones. Its a bit of a mystery, which is nice.

Maelas

Bastilean said:

Does that make Orion a Daemon Prince?

Honestly, Orion and Ariel are kind of Daemon Princes indeed !

A cool idea, if emotions and souls feeds chaos gods, then maybe Athel Loren is the warp manifestation of nature itself !

Maelas

Oh and for those that wanted the quote, here it is, from the Wood Elves armybook

Omega_Warrior

I thought Athel Loren along with the dragons were on the planet prior to the old ones coming around.

Maedrethnir#1968

Maelas said:

I remember an excessively cool piece of lore. When Daemons first invaded Ulthuan and went to Avelorn, they got confused as to why Tree Spirit attacked them, because they thought they were weird demons.

Basically, Tree Spirits are to Athel Loren what Daemons are to the Chaos Realm !

8ED AB p. 16:

Greatest of these heroes was Aenarion the Defender, first of the Phoenix Kings. It was he who rallied the Elves to hold back the daemonic tide, and his example ever spurred others to greater deeds. In time, Aenarion took the Everqueen Astarielle as his wife, and she bore him two fine children: Morelion, and Yvraine. As the Phoenix King fought to preserve Ulthuan, the Everqueen withdrew into the hallowed woods of Avelorn to raise their children as far from war as those days would allow. Avelorn had so far been spared the horrors of the invasion, for the Daemons sensed that Durthu and his kind were not dissimilar in nature to themselves, and were wary of attacking their domain if easier prey was close at hand. Such a state of affairs could not last, however. One fateful day, when Aenarion’s army was campaigning far from Avelorn, a daemonic host greater than any yet seen descended upon Avelorn, and the slaughter began.

General_Hijalti said:

sykall said:

There is sadly never a real explanation how this happened and where Athel Lorens spirits come from originally. Only Tree Kin are made from the souls of deceased Wood Elves. The rest is a mystery as is Athel Lorens origin itself.

My personal theory is that Athel Loren is akin to a autonomus terraforming machine created by the Old Ones. Whilst it was not stated that the forest was directly created by the Old Ones it must be part of the Great Plan. Otherwose this forest could not have prospered so much under their reign. And it must be adaptive, as the forest accepted the WE under its banner.

Following this allegory the Forest Spirits are akin to independent AIs in service of this greater entitiy. They can drive external bodies (dryads/Treemen) to fulllfill purposes and bring up creative solutions the Forest could not do alone. E.g. defending the woods, purifying them from corruption, interacting with mortals etc. Pp.
This could mean that forest spirits are created or spawned by the forest itself. Probably in regular intervalls like the Lizardmen. Depending on the purpose of the spirits some are then taking over a mortal form and become dryads, Treemen.

At the same time Wood elves were adopted by the Forest and are part of the Weave, the natural balance of life and death. And when they die, their souls are absorbed by it and by extension Athel Loren.
As the Tree kin example shows elven souls can be repurposed by the weave to create tree kin. By exeggeratiom I would thus say that Athel Loren is absorbing the elven souls into its data base and remoulding them into a new, servicable form. And maybe WE souls are also an foundation for other forest spirits after their integration into the Athel Loren complex

Edit: lizardmen are regulary spawned not beastmen...

Pretty sure I have seen the great seeding of athel loren by the old ones mentioned in lore

8ED AB p. 16:

Long ago, before the coming of Chaos, before even the rise of the Elves, a great forest took root upon the world. Like much that came to exist in that halcyon time, the forest was the work of the mysterious Old Ones, who planted its seeds and saplings as part of their grand experiment. This was no magically tainted arborea, as the jungles of the south would one day become, but a form of life utterly unique in all the realms of the world. Of course, other forests had existed before that time, and would exist again, but they were pitiable things in comparison, populated by trees that possessed neither voice nor thought and were unable to protect themselves from the predations of those who sought their boughs for fire and shelter.

This great forest was different, for powerful spirits dwelt within and amongst its trees. It is impossible to say whether this was part of the Old Ones’ design, the work of the Elf gods or caused by some other influence that seeped into the trees’ souls, but as time went on, the trees came to think in a way that trees were never meant to, and learned of feelings such as anger and hate. Before long, the great forest became aware of itself, and of the blooded life that crawled upon the world like insects. The great forest treated some races with tolerance, and even friendship. Others, especially those greedy folk who saw the trees only as a ready source of fuel, were met with ruthless fury, sparking legends of remorseless tree-daemons that would last for millennia.

Bastilean said:

Does that make Orion a Daemon Prince?

Orion is more than a Daemon Prince, he is the Avatar of Kurnous.

Rubz2293#7512

The Ent wifes from Middle-Earth migrated and settled in Athel Loren.

lucibuis#6195

They were probably created by the old ones like all the other races in the setting.

In terms of folklore, the forests spirits are ancestral and archetypical entities, predating humanlike life forms and probably all life forms.

They are the bearer of life and nature’s deepest power.

NemoTheElf101#1472

Maelas said:

I remember an excessively cool piece of lore. When Daemons first invaded Ulthuan and went to Avelorn, they got confused as to why Tree Spirit attacked them, because they thought they were weird demons.

Basically, Tree Spirits are to Athel Loren what Daemons are to the Chaos Realm !

This basically. Tree spirits, elementals, daemons, benevolent spirits, and the like are all aethyric entities from the Realm of Chaos, or some kind of expression of the land itself.

Just because a being is made of "chaos" doesn't mean they are squarely of Chaos.

Kouran_Darkhand#6365

Maelas said:

Oh and for those that wanted the quote, here it is, from the Wood Elves armybook

Good find.

They weren’t the unique seen as equals by the daemons. They called brother Aenarion during his final battles, when he was completely consumed by hate and the influence of Khaine.

Itharus#3127

Bastilean said:

Does that make Orion a Daemon Prince?

Kind of. He's a lesser chaos deity. Technically? So is Sigmar at this point. I don't know if having a mortal origin changes anything in Sigmar's case or not, though (quite possibly?). Being a "chaos deity" may require a pure start in the warp, I dunno. Hashut's a lesser chaos deity, so are all of the elven gods, and even the Nehekharan gods, the great horned rat, and really all the gods other than the big 4 'dark gods of chaos' (for whom there is nothing lesser about them).

Potential exceptions for Gork and Mork... they are weird, and sort of "foreign" to the warp. The Old Ones are also foreign gods, so to speak.

Nightengale

sykall said:

There is sadly never a real explanation how this happened and where Athel Lorens spirits come from originally. Only Tree Kin are made from the souls of deceased Wood Elves. The rest is a mystery as is Athel Lorens origin itself.

My personal theory is that Athel Loren is akin to a autonomus terraforming machine created by the Old Ones. Whilst it was not stated that the forest was directly created by the Old Ones it must be part of the Great Plan. Otherwose this forest could not have prospered so much under their reign. And it must be adaptive, as the forest accepted the WE under its banner.

Following this allegory the Forest Spirits are akin to independent AIs in service of this greater entitiy. They can drive external bodies (dryads/Treemen) to fulllfill purposes and bring up creative solutions the Forest could not do alone. E.g. defending the woods, purifying them from corruption, interacting with mortals etc. Pp.
This could mean that forest spirits are created or spawned by the forest itself. Probably in regular intervalls like the Lizardmen. Depending on the purpose of the spirits some are then taking over a mortal form and become dryads, Treemen.

At the same time Wood elves were adopted by the Forest and are part of the Weave, the natural balance of life and death. And when they die, their souls are absorbed by it and by extension Athel Loren.
As the Tree kin example shows elven souls can be repurposed by the weave to create tree kin. By exeggeratiom I would thus say that Athel Loren is absorbing the elven souls into its data base and remoulding them into a new, servicable form. And maybe WE souls are also an foundation for other forest spirits after their integration into the Athel Loren complex

Edit: lizardmen are regulary spawned not beastmen...

I like this one as I have also though of this.

Athel loren grows trees that have a forest spirit in or there is a tree that makes dryads

I,e, durthu was a forest spirit that gained awareness and dryads are basically Daemons so athel loren makes then but ones like durthu have to be awaken

Nightengale

Otters007 said:

Maelas said:

I remember an excessively cool piece of lore. When Daemons first invaded Ulthuan and went to Avelorn, they got confused as to why Tree Spirit attacked them, because they thought they were weird demons.

Basically, Tree Spirits are to Athel Loren what Daemons are to the Chaos Realm !

That is cool! Love the idea of them being demons in a sense.

Well to my knowledge, dryads are, but not treeman or treekin