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Humans vs Elves: Which race would win in an all out war?

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  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 237

    Magic again boils down to numbers.

    An Elf Mage is probably a little stronger than a human mage on average, but there's a finite supply of Elf mages. Not so for Humans.

    Eh wouldn't be so sure human magic schools in the Empire were founded by Magnus the Pious who lifted the ancient laws against the practice of wizardry and founded the eight Colleges of Magic .Even now magic users are frawned upon and hunted down in many of the human realms
    No they were founded by Telis training the humans and using elf teaching they have a deeper understanding of the lores then elves do as they are toned to there singular lore better then the elfs. Witches and rouge mages are hunted down AE those who dont report to the collages for the proper training and are risking everyones lives by throwing around magic.

    The 2 lores of magic elves use that humans cant arnt because humans are worse then the elves its because outside of nerco human mages can only understand 1 wind and High magic is using all the winds in harmony together and dark magic is just slaming them together and being good at not having that kill you
    Actually it's just empire mages that learn only one wind, and there are exceptions like the aforementioned Shreibner.

    Bretonnian Prophetesses can use 3 lores at the same time, so it's not like humans are incapable of using multiple lores.
    the Enchantress can but not the normal ones as far as im aware anyways but your not wrong anyways not that i think about it because wiitchs use dark nagash used dark to make necro etc
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,738

    Magic again boils down to numbers.

    An Elf Mage is probably a little stronger than a human mage on average, but there's a finite supply of Elf mages. Not so for Humans.

    Eh wouldn't be so sure human magic schools in the Empire were founded by Magnus the Pious who lifted the ancient laws against the practice of wizardry and founded the eight Colleges of Magic .Even now magic users are frawned upon and hunted down in many of the human realms
    No they were founded by Telis training the humans and using elf teaching they have a deeper understanding of the lores then elves do as they are toned to there singular lore better then the elfs. Witches and rouge mages are hunted down AE those who dont report to the collages for the proper training and are risking everyones lives by throwing around magic.

    The 2 lores of magic elves use that humans cant arnt because humans are worse then the elves its because outside of nerco human mages can only understand 1 wind and High magic is using all the winds in harmony together and dark magic is just slaming them together and being good at not having that kill you
    Actually it's just empire mages that learn only one wind, and there are exceptions like the aforementioned Shreibner.

    Bretonnian Prophetesses can use 3 lores at the same time, so it's not like humans are incapable of using multiple lores.
    the Enchantress can but not the normal ones as far as im aware anyways but your not wrong anyways not that i think about it because wiitchs use dark nagash used dark to make necro etc
    "Much like lesser Grail Damsels, Prophetesses are capable of mastering both the Lore of Life and the Lore of Beasts. Such is their power, however, that they can also call upon the Lore of Heavens. This is highly unusual, for even the greatest Wizards of the Empire can only master one lore of magic."

  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,429

    "Lay waste to entire armies" still sounds far less impressive than "Greatest mages on the face of the earth" and "topple cities with a wave of a hand" slaan have :D. Plus it's not even an armybook quote, it's from the games. All exaggerations if we look at practical deeds. Human mages are also said to cast destructive spells that decimate entire regiments. This is just standard armybook hype, cuz all of them still prone to dying to a good old bullet to the head or even axe to the face despite their range advantage.

    If we talk numbers, let's remember it's not only Empire but Bretonnia, Kislev, Southern realms. All of these have mages too, and haven't really shunned the practice of magic. If we add Asian humans we also have Cathayan mages or can we agree that Cathay would be too much at this point?

    If it's all elves vs just Empire I would agree that Empire loses lol. But for some reason in this discussion it often seems like it is. Bretonnia has stronger mages and grail knights are some of the best warriors in the setting, only surpassed by the most elite chaos followers and vampires, still arguable on both accounts.

    Ok here is from the army books i am not comparing them to the slann
    Chief amongst the magic-wielders of Naggaroth are the sisters of the Dark Convent of Sorceresses who are gathered in the great fortress of Ghrond. Competition for positions in the Dark Convent is bloody and fierce. Those that survive their sisters' ambitions learn some of the most powerful magic in the world. They can call upon ancient daemonic entities to devour their enemies, hurl storms of wicked shards at their foes or engulf them in dark energy.

    Pretty sure it is frawn upon in Southern realms as well.Kislev tends to suppress all other kinds of magic except ice magic

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    edited August 2021

    "Lay waste to entire armies" still sounds far less impressive than "Greatest mages on the face of the earth" and "topple cities with a wave of a hand" slaan have :D. Plus it's not even an armybook quote, it's from the games. All exaggerations if we look at practical deeds. Human mages are also said to cast destructive spells that decimate entire regiments. This is just standard armybook hype, cuz all of them still prone to dying to a good old bullet to the head or even axe to the face despite their range advantage.

    If we talk numbers, let's remember it's not only Empire but Bretonnia, Kislev, Southern realms. All of these have mages too, and haven't really shunned the practice of magic. If we add Asian humans we also have Cathayan mages or can we agree that Cathay would be too much at this point?

    If it's all elves vs just Empire I would agree that Empire loses lol. But for some reason in this discussion it often seems like it is. Bretonnia has stronger mages and grail knights are some of the best warriors in the setting, only surpassed by the most elite chaos followers and vampires, still arguable on both accounts.

    Ok here is from the army books i am not comparing them to the slann
    Chief amongst the magic-wielders of Naggaroth are the sisters of the Dark Convent of Sorceresses who are gathered in the great fortress of Ghrond. Competition for positions in the Dark Convent is bloody and fierce. Those that survive their sisters' ambitions learn some of the most powerful magic in the world. They can call upon ancient daemonic entities to devour their enemies, hurl storms of wicked shards at their foes or engulf them in dark energy.

    Pretty sure it is frawn upon in Southern realms as well.Kislev tends to suppress all other kinds of magic except ice magic
    "Among these talented Wizards, there are a few with a steely nerve and unmatched talent which are selected and groomed to become Battle Wizards, masters of “battle magic.” This approach to magic involves particularly destructive spells permitted to be used only on the battlefield. Exceptionally powerful, they can cast spells that evoke terrible windstorms, rain fire on armies, and some say even call down stars from the sky to destroy the Empire’s enemies."

    Using these quotes is pointless, they will all be lauded as army destroying machines. The truth is, elves are a bit better than humans but not 2x better. And a mage most likely isn't any more destructive than a hellstorm battery, and is as vulnerable to weapons as your average dude/gal.

    Hireling wizards seem to be accepted just fine in Southern Realms. Kislev mostly practices ice magic but do you really need multiple lores to kill your enemies. I think mastering a couple of destructive spells would do just fine in most cases.

  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 237

    Magic again boils down to numbers.

    An Elf Mage is probably a little stronger than a human mage on average, but there's a finite supply of Elf mages. Not so for Humans.

    Eh wouldn't be so sure human magic schools in the Empire were founded by Magnus the Pious who lifted the ancient laws against the practice of wizardry and founded the eight Colleges of Magic .Even now magic users are frawned upon and hunted down in many of the human realms
    No they were founded by Telis training the humans and using elf teaching they have a deeper understanding of the lores then elves do as they are toned to there singular lore better then the elfs. Witches and rouge mages are hunted down AE those who dont report to the collages for the proper training and are risking everyones lives by throwing around magic.

    The 2 lores of magic elves use that humans cant arnt because humans are worse then the elves its because outside of nerco human mages can only understand 1 wind and High magic is using all the winds in harmony together and dark magic is just slaming them together and being good at not having that kill you
    Actually it's just empire mages that learn only one wind, and there are exceptions like the aforementioned Shreibner.

    Bretonnian Prophetesses can use 3 lores at the same time, so it's not like humans are incapable of using multiple lores.
    the Enchantress can but not the normal ones as far as im aware anyways but your not wrong anyways not that i think about it because wiitchs use dark nagash used dark to make necro etc
    "Much like lesser Grail Damsels, Prophetesses are capable of mastering both the Lore of Life and the Lore of Beasts. Such is their power, however, that they can also call upon the Lore of Heavens. This is highly unusual, for even the greatest Wizards of the Empire can only master one lore of magic."
    I see good to know never actually got my hands on a bret book
  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 237

    "Lay waste to entire armies" still sounds far less impressive than "Greatest mages on the face of the earth" and "topple cities with a wave of a hand" slaan have :D. Plus it's not even an armybook quote, it's from the games. All exaggerations if we look at practical deeds. Human mages are also said to cast destructive spells that decimate entire regiments. This is just standard armybook hype, cuz all of them still prone to dying to a good old bullet to the head or even axe to the face despite their range advantage.

    If we talk numbers, let's remember it's not only Empire but Bretonnia, Kislev, Southern realms. All of these have mages too, and haven't really shunned the practice of magic. If we add Asian humans we also have Cathayan mages or can we agree that Cathay would be too much at this point?

    If it's all elves vs just Empire I would agree that Empire loses lol. But for some reason in this discussion it often seems like it is. Bretonnia has stronger mages and grail knights are some of the best warriors in the setting, only surpassed by the most elite chaos followers and vampires, still arguable on both accounts.

    Ok here is from the army books i am not comparing them to the slann
    Chief amongst the magic-wielders of Naggaroth are the sisters of the Dark Convent of Sorceresses who are gathered in the great fortress of Ghrond. Competition for positions in the Dark Convent is bloody and fierce. Those that survive their sisters' ambitions learn some of the most powerful magic in the world. They can call upon ancient daemonic entities to devour their enemies, hurl storms of wicked shards at their foes or engulf them in dark energy.

    Pretty sure it is frawn upon in Southern realms as well.Kislev tends to suppress all other kinds of magic except ice magic
    "Among these talented Wizards, there are a few with a steely nerve and unmatched talent which are selected and groomed to become Battle Wizards, masters of “battle magic.” This approach to magic involves particularly destructive spells permitted to be used only on the battlefield. Exceptionally powerful, they can cast spells that evoke terrible windstorms, rain fire on armies, and some say even call down stars from the sky to destroy the Empire’s enemies."

    Using these quotes is pointless, they will all be lauded as army destroying machines. The truth is, elves are a bit better than humans but not 2x better. And a mage most likely isn't any more destructive than a hellstorm battery and as vulnerable to weapons as your average dude/gal.

    Hireling wizards seem to be accepted just fine in Southern Realms. Kislev mostly practices ice magic but do you need multiple lores to kill your enemies. I think mastering a couple of destructive spells would do just fine in most cases.
    There are also lesser collages in the southern realms and with the quote you have said in the passed they likely have there own spells and much like kis own lores. hard to say tho as lore there is under developed

    also random thing do we count the Ghoul king who is ruling a human kingdom in this? Not like it will matter but is funny idea
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,429
    edited August 2021

    "Lay waste to entire armies" still sounds far less impressive than "Greatest mages on the face of the earth" and "topple cities with a wave of a hand" slaan have :D. Plus it's not even an armybook quote, it's from the games. All exaggerations if we look at practical deeds. Human mages are also said to cast destructive spells that decimate entire regiments. This is just standard armybook hype, cuz all of them still prone to dying to a good old bullet to the head or even axe to the face despite their range advantage.

    If we talk numbers, let's remember it's not only Empire but Bretonnia, Kislev, Southern realms. All of these have mages too, and haven't really shunned the practice of magic. If we add Asian humans we also have Cathayan mages or can we agree that Cathay would be too much at this point?

    If it's all elves vs just Empire I would agree that Empire loses lol. But for some reason in this discussion it often seems like it is. Bretonnia has stronger mages and grail knights are some of the best warriors in the setting, only surpassed by the most elite chaos followers and vampires, still arguable on both accounts.

    Ok here is from the army books i am not comparing them to the slann
    Chief amongst the magic-wielders of Naggaroth are the sisters of the Dark Convent of Sorceresses who are gathered in the great fortress of Ghrond. Competition for positions in the Dark Convent is bloody and fierce. Those that survive their sisters' ambitions learn some of the most powerful magic in the world. They can call upon ancient daemonic entities to devour their enemies, hurl storms of wicked shards at their foes or engulf them in dark energy.

    Pretty sure it is frawn upon in Southern realms as well.Kislev tends to suppress all other kinds of magic except ice magic
    "Among these talented Wizards, there are a few with a steely nerve and unmatched talent which are selected and groomed to become Battle Wizards, masters of “battle magic.” This approach to magic involves particularly destructive spells permitted to be used only on the battlefield. Exceptionally powerful, they can cast spells that evoke terrible windstorms, rain fire on armies, and some say even call down stars from the sky to destroy the Empire’s enemies."

    Using these quotes is pointless, they will all be lauded as army destroying machines. The truth is, elves are a bit better than humans but not 2x better. And a mage most likely isn't any more destructive than a hellstorm battery, and is as vulnerable to weapons as your average dude/gal.

    Hireling wizards seem to be accepted just fine in Southern Realms. Kislev mostly practices ice magic but do you really need multiple lores to kill your enemies. I think mastering a couple of destructive spells would do just fine in most cases.
    Nothing about casting most powerful magics in that quote though :wink:

    Ice lore is said to become weaker the warmer the weather so it does limit Kislev some

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,738

    "Lay waste to entire armies" still sounds far less impressive than "Greatest mages on the face of the earth" and "topple cities with a wave of a hand" slaan have :D. Plus it's not even an armybook quote, it's from the games. All exaggerations if we look at practical deeds. Human mages are also said to cast destructive spells that decimate entire regiments. This is just standard armybook hype, cuz all of them still prone to dying to a good old bullet to the head or even axe to the face despite their range advantage.

    If we talk numbers, let's remember it's not only Empire but Bretonnia, Kislev, Southern realms. All of these have mages too, and haven't really shunned the practice of magic. If we add Asian humans we also have Cathayan mages or can we agree that Cathay would be too much at this point?

    If it's all elves vs just Empire I would agree that Empire loses lol. But for some reason in this discussion it often seems like it is. Bretonnia has stronger mages and grail knights are some of the best warriors in the setting, only surpassed by the most elite chaos followers and vampires, still arguable on both accounts.

    Ok here is from the army books i am not comparing them to the slann
    Chief amongst the magic-wielders of Naggaroth are the sisters of the Dark Convent of Sorceresses who are gathered in the great fortress of Ghrond. Competition for positions in the Dark Convent is bloody and fierce. Those that survive their sisters' ambitions learn some of the most powerful magic in the world. They can call upon ancient daemonic entities to devour their enemies, hurl storms of wicked shards at their foes or engulf them in dark energy.

    Pretty sure it is frawn upon in Southern realms as well.Kislev tends to suppress all other kinds of magic except ice magic
    "Among these talented Wizards, there are a few with a steely nerve and unmatched talent which are selected and groomed to become Battle Wizards, masters of “battle magic.” This approach to magic involves particularly destructive spells permitted to be used only on the battlefield. Exceptionally powerful, they can cast spells that evoke terrible windstorms, rain fire on armies, and some say even call down stars from the sky to destroy the Empire’s enemies."

    Using these quotes is pointless, they will all be lauded as army destroying machines. The truth is, elves are a bit better than humans but not 2x better. And a mage most likely isn't any more destructive than a hellstorm battery, and is as vulnerable to weapons as your average dude/gal.

    Hireling wizards seem to be accepted just fine in Southern Realms. Kislev mostly practices ice magic but do you really need multiple lores to kill your enemies. I think mastering a couple of destructive spells would do just fine in most cases.
    Nothing about casting most powerful magics in that quote though :wink:

    Ice lore is said to become weaker the warmer the weather so it does limit Kislev some
    No, but the actual spells seem on par with what the elves can do. Again, this is just pointless hype, and maybe human magic isn't the "most powerful" because it's 10% weaker than elf magic, although elf magic is also definitely not the most powerful because Slaan exist. I like to defer to TT in these cases when the lore is just unreasonable hype. Elf mages are able to go up 1 level higher than human mages (apart from named human mages, who also hit level 4). But that doesn't make them 2x stronger, 2 human mages are still better.

  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,429
    Leading a raid on Bretonnia, his forces were intercepted by a army led by the local Duke. Noting that the open field favoured the large amount of enemy cavalry, he orderd the 500 slaves he had collected thus far released - then had them killed with missile fire as they ran for the Bretonnian lines, killing the last survivior himself with a crossbow bolt. The resulting mounds of the dead chnaged the terrain and he ordered the attack, killing the Duke himnself in single combat. The surviving peasents and men at arms where then rounded up to replace the slaughtered slaves. [1a]

    More stories of what befalls our Bretonian friend when they face elves

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 34,666

    Leading a raid on Bretonnia, his forces were intercepted by a army led by the local Duke. Noting that the open field favoured the large amount of enemy cavalry, he orderd the 500 slaves he had collected thus far released - then had them killed with missile fire as they ran for the Bretonnian lines, killing the last survivior himself with a crossbow bolt. The resulting mounds of the dead chnaged the terrain and he ordered the attack, killing the Duke himnself in single combat. The surviving peasents and men at arms where then rounded up to replace the slaughtered slaves. [1a]

    More stories of what befalls our Bretonian friend when they face elves

    They won a battle. A battle.

    It's not exactly impressive.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor

  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,429

    Leading a raid on Bretonnia, his forces were intercepted by a army led by the local Duke. Noting that the open field favoured the large amount of enemy cavalry, he orderd the 500 slaves he had collected thus far released - then had them killed with missile fire as they ran for the Bretonnian lines, killing the last survivior himself with a crossbow bolt. The resulting mounds of the dead chnaged the terrain and he ordered the attack, killing the Duke himnself in single combat. The surviving peasents and men at arms where then rounded up to replace the slaughtered slaves. [1a]

    More stories of what befalls our Bretonian friend when they face elves

    They won a battle. A battle.

    It's not exactly impressive.
    How much times humans being owned is required for it to count?


    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 34,666

    Leading a raid on Bretonnia, his forces were intercepted by a army led by the local Duke. Noting that the open field favoured the large amount of enemy cavalry, he orderd the 500 slaves he had collected thus far released - then had them killed with missile fire as they ran for the Bretonnian lines, killing the last survivior himself with a crossbow bolt. The resulting mounds of the dead chnaged the terrain and he ordered the attack, killing the Duke himnself in single combat. The surviving peasents and men at arms where then rounded up to replace the slaughtered slaves. [1a]

    More stories of what befalls our Bretonian friend when they face elves

    They won a battle. A battle.

    It's not exactly impressive.
    How much times humans being owned is required for it to count?

    Backstabbing an enemy isn't impressive. That tactic works precisely once.

    Regardless, I'm sure all army books have examples of the race winning. That's how army books work. It doesn't change the reality that the DE are up against a vastly superior enemy.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor

  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,429
    edited August 2021

    Leading a raid on Bretonnia, his forces were intercepted by a army led by the local Duke. Noting that the open field favoured the large amount of enemy cavalry, he orderd the 500 slaves he had collected thus far released - then had them killed with missile fire as they ran for the Bretonnian lines, killing the last survivior himself with a crossbow bolt. The resulting mounds of the dead chnaged the terrain and he ordered the attack, killing the Duke himnself in single combat. The surviving peasents and men at arms where then rounded up to replace the slaughtered slaves. [1a]

    More stories of what befalls our Bretonian friend when they face elves

    They won a battle. A battle.

    It's not exactly impressive.
    How much times humans being owned is required for it to count?

    Backstabbing an enemy isn't impressive. That tactic works precisely once.

    Regardless, I'm sure all army books have examples of the race winning. That's how army books work. It doesn't change the reality that the DE are up against a vastly superior enemy.
    Has worked for them more then once.But yeah maybe one day humies will become better at magic and detect a glamour.

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • SaintCornSaintCorn Registered Users Posts: 2,590

    Leading a raid on Bretonnia, his forces were intercepted by a army led by the local Duke. Noting that the open field favoured the large amount of enemy cavalry, he orderd the 500 slaves he had collected thus far released - then had them killed with missile fire as they ran for the Bretonnian lines, killing the last survivior himself with a crossbow bolt. The resulting mounds of the dead chnaged the terrain and he ordered the attack, killing the Duke himnself in single combat. The surviving peasents and men at arms where then rounded up to replace the slaughtered slaves. [1a]

    More stories of what befalls our Bretonian friend when they face elves

    They won a battle. A battle.

    It's not exactly impressive.
    How much times humans being owned is required for it to count?

    Backstabbing an enemy isn't impressive. That tactic works precisely once.

    Regardless, I'm sure all army books have examples of the race winning. That's how army books work. It doesn't change the reality that the DE are up against a vastly superior enemy.
    Also, in a scenario where every elf is at war with every human faction, dressing up like a High Elf wouldn't make people think you're an ally.
    So, this trick would be almost laughably bad in this scenario.

  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,429
    SaintCorn said:

    Leading a raid on Bretonnia, his forces were intercepted by a army led by the local Duke. Noting that the open field favoured the large amount of enemy cavalry, he orderd the 500 slaves he had collected thus far released - then had them killed with missile fire as they ran for the Bretonnian lines, killing the last survivior himself with a crossbow bolt. The resulting mounds of the dead chnaged the terrain and he ordered the attack, killing the Duke himnself in single combat. The surviving peasents and men at arms where then rounded up to replace the slaughtered slaves. [1a]

    More stories of what befalls our Bretonian friend when they face elves

    They won a battle. A battle.

    It's not exactly impressive.
    How much times humans being owned is required for it to count?

    Backstabbing an enemy isn't impressive. That tactic works precisely once.

    Regardless, I'm sure all army books have examples of the race winning. That's how army books work. It doesn't change the reality that the DE are up against a vastly superior enemy.
    Also, in a scenario where every elf is at war with every human faction, dressing up like a High Elf wouldn't make people think you're an ally.
    So, this trick would be almost laughably bad in this scenario.
    Didn't dress up used a glamour i think they wwould not have a problem to manage to look like humans as well

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,429

    Magic again boils down to numbers.

    An Elf Mage is probably a little stronger than a human mage on average, but there's a finite supply of Elf mages. Not so for Humans.

    Eh wouldn't be so sure human magic schools in the Empire were founded by Magnus the Pious who lifted the ancient laws against the practice of wizardry and founded the eight Colleges of Magic .Even now magic users are frawned upon and hunted down in many of the human realms
    No they were founded by Telis training the humans and using elf teaching they have a deeper understanding of the lores then elves do as they are toned to there singular lore better then the elfs. Witches and rouge mages are hunted down AE those who dont report to the collages for the proper training and are risking everyones lives by throwing around magic.

    The 2 lores of magic elves use that humans cant arnt because humans are worse then the elves its because outside of nerco human mages can only understand 1 wind and High magic is using all the winds in harmony together and dark magic is just slaming them together and being good at not having that kill you
    Actually it's just empire mages that learn only one wind, and there are exceptions like the aforementioned Shreibner.

    Bretonnian Prophetesses can use 3 lores at the same time, so it's not like humans are incapable of using multiple lores.
    the Enchantress can but not the normal ones as far as im aware anyways but your not wrong anyways not that i think about it because wiitchs use dark nagash used dark to make necro etc
    "Much like lesser Grail Damsels, Prophetesses are capable of mastering both the Lore of Life and the Lore of Beasts. Such is their power, however, that they can also call upon the Lore of Heavens. This is highly unusual, for even the greatest Wizards of the Empire can only master one lore of magic."
    It has something to do with being blessed by ze Lady

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 34,666
    SaintCorn said:

    Leading a raid on Bretonnia, his forces were intercepted by a army led by the local Duke. Noting that the open field favoured the large amount of enemy cavalry, he orderd the 500 slaves he had collected thus far released - then had them killed with missile fire as they ran for the Bretonnian lines, killing the last survivior himself with a crossbow bolt. The resulting mounds of the dead chnaged the terrain and he ordered the attack, killing the Duke himnself in single combat. The surviving peasents and men at arms where then rounded up to replace the slaughtered slaves. [1a]

    More stories of what befalls our Bretonian friend when they face elves

    They won a battle. A battle.

    It's not exactly impressive.
    How much times humans being owned is required for it to count?

    Backstabbing an enemy isn't impressive. That tactic works precisely once.

    Regardless, I'm sure all army books have examples of the race winning. That's how army books work. It doesn't change the reality that the DE are up against a vastly superior enemy.
    Also, in a scenario where every elf is at war with every human faction, dressing up like a High Elf wouldn't make people think you're an ally.
    So, this trick would be almost laughably bad in this scenario.
    Yeah. It's a terrible example for all out war.
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  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,261
    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    edited August 2021
    "The Castellan of Quenelles Guillaume de Grenouille, was honour-bound to accept the Elves' challenge. The conditions were tightened: six duels for life and death. At the request of the duke, Agravain also took part. It was customary before that the fair Lady Melisande gave favour to the valiant knights. To this she gave her clothes to the fighters as tokens of her affection. Agravain was the last one. When he faced the now half-naked and perplexed Melisande, Agravain renounced chivalry to her favour, unwilling to embarrass her further. She cut a curl from her hair and gave it as a gift, hoping Agravain would survive. The tournament began, and the the Wood Elves proved worthy opponents, before Agravain two knights lost their lives. But the skilled knight was superior to his own opponents and proved victorious"

    "Before the island of Challotte, where the Grail chapel stood, they encountered the Wood Elves, led by a Highborn known as Athelwyn. The Elf Prince explained to the Bretonnians that the great Tree of Shields had overgrown the ruins of the chapel and was now a holy place for the elves. He then took the chalice of Chanterelle and threw it at the bretons. It landed in the swamp and sank before the eyes of both armies. Agravain observed the tree and saw countless shields of Questing Knights who had died there. One particular shield he recognised was that of the long lost hero, Fragonnarde de Montecannes. Their shields were hung as both a sign of warning and as trophies. Agravain tried to control his rage, but the other knights could not. Both sides clashed, the Battle of the Tree of Shields had begun.

    While Aloys de Montjoie fought aside his five Grail Knight companions at the centre of the battle, Agravain rode over the flank with his Questing Knights and Eleanor. They reached the island and carried out a successful attack against the elves defending it. Within the mist blanketing the island, there remained but a single, deadly Wood Elf hero, Gyferth. Agravain himself fought man to man with the brave and doomed Elf Prince. Gyferth was in every way a worthy adversary, but nonetheless fell to Agravain's lance.

    The battle proved costly, for Bretonnian and Elf alike. It ended after Aloys had slain Athelwyn, sacrificing himself to the Prince's Highborn bodyguard. Upon seeing their leader fall, the Wood Elves turned to escape, incapable of defeating the Bretonnians."

    Bretonnian knights are more than capable of defeating elven armies and elves in single combat. So elves can sometimes beat an evenly matched human force? Cool. What about when being severely outnumbered and in a big battle rather than a raid?

  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    edited August 2021

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,261

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    edited August 2021

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,261
    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,261

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    edited August 2021

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,261

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    edited August 2021

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 34,666

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    Great points MD.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

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  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,261

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    edited August 2021

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.

This discussion has been closed.