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Humans vs Elves: Which race would win in an all out war?

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  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29
    As for Grey Seers vs Slaan - I believe it was most of the Grey Seers vs most of the Slaan. Because most of the Slaan were exhausted and incapacitated after this duel when Pestilens invaded Lustria. There are no numbers but basically this is most mages of a magically weaker but numerous faction vs most mages of the best magical faction of the setting.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,959

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    HE hold a massive numbers advantage over the DE, it was 20:1 when the DE emigrated and should have grown since then as the Druchii are involved in near constant wars and pointless, bloody infighting. The HE can even boast of having better mages simply by virtue of the DE ideology making it a bad idea to reveal secrets to third persons since those could and would then just use that knowledge against you while HE society isn't anywhere near as dysfunctional. I mean Morathi not sharing her secrets of perpetual youth with anyone is just the most prominent example, who knows how much magical know-how the Druchii lost just because a mage of theirs took their secrets to the grave?

    And yet the HE couldn't just eliminate the Druchii in 2,5 millenia.

    Of course, that's the power of bad writing and worldbuilding at work here, but taken at face level it means beating all of humanity is beyond the reach of the elves, even if they'd stick all together for once.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 31,153

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Great points MD!
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  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,959

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world even when not united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,959

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,959

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.



  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.

  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 126
    High magic is the most technical of all magic. It is not the strongest. Once again human mages with there single lores dive deeper into them then the elves to the point where they almost become a wellspring for the wind. Something elf mages can not do creating a deeper understanding of the wind for the wizard then they of the elf. Nice examples of things. Bright wizards becoming more aggressive and literally on fire at higher lvls, shadow wizards for humans eventually become shade like, beasts have a stronger connection to the animals they come summon and take on animal like traits etc
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,959

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,422

    :D

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.

  • Icebern12Icebern12 Registered Users Posts: 202

    Icebern12 said:




    There is ridiculous space for the elves in the inner kingdoms alone. Take Japan or the Netherlands as real life examples. Japan has absolute crap geography, it's so mountainous only four zones are good for agriculture and large population concentration, that didn't hamper it's growth throughout the centuries.

    The Netherlands is pretty small, and yet it is the second largest exporter of food in the world. It's not so much the space as how you use it.

    But Ulthuan has idillic fields and space even if you take into account the mountains. Food is not a problem for the day to day life the lowest of elves there.

    You say that and then show a map that shows just how little space there's actually to Ulthuan. It's lousy with mountain ranges which produce no food and parts of it are wasteland and swamp. Not to speak of all the forests.

    And Japan was hampered in its population growth until it opened up to the world again, just one look at its population development shows it. If Japan got cut off from the outside now, major starvation would be the result.

    Ulthuan cannot sustain any sort of large population with the limited space available to it. Not enough to be relevant on thw world stage. That they have universal conscription cripples them even more since all those elves taken out of the workforce to play soldier of course also do not contribute to the domestic economy.
    I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

    UK is comparatively speaking small. It never had the population of european demographic giants like France or Germany (both of which have lots of forests, especially germany, that didn't seem to hamper its huge population). UK was still the prime international world power thanks to its commercial and naval power. Now which nation in the warhammer world can be compared to the commercial and naval power of the UK? Only with more land and more influence?

    Just as a great part of Ulthuan is covered in mountain ranges there is also a whole lot of it in the inner and outer kingdoms that isn't. You can tell me food can't be grown in the mountains, true, that means food will have to be grown in the plains so what? There is enough space for it not to mention that just makes the population to concentrate in those plains.



    For scale because the game shrinks a lot of ulthuan



    Hell you said earlier that although the empire is covered in forests its lower half isn't and that is its breadbasket. Leaving aside that Reikland is covered in forests and yet it is famous for how fertile and prosperous it is how is this different from the example I gave you with the inner and outer kingdoms? Even Caledor can grow a good deal of food considering it is full of dormant volcanoes and that makes the soil near the mountain slopes highly fertile. Chrace, Cothique and Tiranoc are not precisely bargain bin soil, they are still better than most of the lands of the empire and bretonnia. They are only worse compared to the idillic fields of places like Eataine, Ellyrion or Saphery. Not to mention all the coast the island continent has for fishing both inside and outside which can also contribute to feeding the population.

    You say that the mandatory conscription for every elf to serve half a year hampers its economy and food production. Of course it does! You should rather ask yourself how the hell can a whole nation have a 6 month every year conscription of every elf and not implode. It's because the soil is so rich overall that they do not need to tend to their fields as much as others do. Hell in saphery alone the Farmers tend to their fields for weeks only thanks to the mages there.

    Ulthuan is a land saturated with magic to its bedrock, literally. It is an island continent, has rich fields and more mineral resources it can count, a strong navy and commercial connexions everywhere. It has everything and more a nation needs to be a superpower, and it is.

    The only reason they are diminishing is because GW decided they were diminishing, following the tolkien trope of mighty civilisation that slowly fades into myth paving the way for the new races.

    But to tell me it can't even grow or sustain a huge population looking at the geography and what the lore says about its land is ridiculous.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,422
    I am yet to see a compeling argument why would an elven goddess be against the elves in a war in which it is humans vs elves

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29

    I am yet to see a compeling argument why would an elven goddess be against the elves in a war in which it is humans vs elves

    Grail knights maintain their powers in ET even when they learn about Lileath and forsake her. And before end times, they fight and kill Dark Elves and Wood Elves, but don't lose their powers anyway (nor does Lileath forsake them because of it).

    Note that Lileath being The Lady is a part of "ET drivel" as you call it, so if you accept it, you have to accept all the other ET lore too.

  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,422
    edited August 29

    I am yet to see a compeling argument why would an elven goddess be against the elves in a war in which it is humans vs elves

    Grail knights maintain their powers in ET even when they learn about Lileath and forsake her. And before end times, they fight and kill Dark Elves and Wood Elves, but don't lose their powers anyway.
    No new grail knights and there are not much of them. Also she can give similar blessing to elfs instead

    I would note if no outside influences are allowed Caledor Dragontamer and his mages are free to enter the fray

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29

    I am yet to see a compeling argument why would an elven goddess be against the elves in a war in which it is humans vs elves

    Grail knights maintain their powers in ET even when they learn about Lileath and forsake her. And before end times, they fight and kill Dark Elves and Wood Elves, but don't lose their powers anyway.
    No new grail knights and there are not much of them. Also she can give similar blessing to elfs instead

    I would note if we no outside influences are allowed Caledor Dragontamer and his mages are free to enter the fray
    I don't think she can give similar blessings to elves. Only humans seem to get superpowers when influenced by Chaos, gods or dark magic. There are no elf vampires, elf chaos followers are the same power level as regular elves (whereas humans get supercharged), and there are no elf "grail knights", the closest we get is phoenix guard and they're not as strong. Elven reproduction is so slow no new elf elites can effectively be made either until the war is over anyway.

    That's assuming Lileath actually stops supporting Bretonnians, which she didn't do in previous human-elf conflicts.

    If Caledor is released:
    1. The world is **** because no Vortex
    2. Sigmar is also released

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,959

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.

  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,422

    I am yet to see a compeling argument why would an elven goddess be against the elves in a war in which it is humans vs elves

    Grail knights maintain their powers in ET even when they learn about Lileath and forsake her. And before end times, they fight and kill Dark Elves and Wood Elves, but don't lose their powers anyway.
    No new grail knights and there are not much of them. Also she can give similar blessing to elfs instead

    I would note if we no outside influences are allowed Caledor Dragontamer and his mages are free to enter the fray
    I don't think she can give similar blessings to elves. Only humans seem to get superpowers when influenced by Chaos, gods or dark magic. There are no elf vampires, elf chaos followers are the same power level as regular elves (whereas humans get supercharged), and there are no elf "grail knights", the closest we get is phoenix guard and they're not as strong. Elven reproduction is so slow no new elf elites can effectively be made either until the war is over anyway.

    That's assuming Lileath actually stops supporting Bretonnians, which she didn't do in previous human-elf conflicts.
    This would not be some small conflict
    1. The world is **** because no Vortex
    2. Sigmar is also released
    Based on what you think she can't ? elfs are not interest in becoming Vampires.
    You said no outside forces so Chaos would not interfere so there is no reason for the vortex?
    Why would sigmar be back?He is a god not a mage trapped in stasis

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29

    I am yet to see a compeling argument why would an elven goddess be against the elves in a war in which it is humans vs elves

    Grail knights maintain their powers in ET even when they learn about Lileath and forsake her. And before end times, they fight and kill Dark Elves and Wood Elves, but don't lose their powers anyway.
    No new grail knights and there are not much of them. Also she can give similar blessing to elfs instead

    I would note if we no outside influences are allowed Caledor Dragontamer and his mages are free to enter the fray
    I don't think she can give similar blessings to elves. Only humans seem to get superpowers when influenced by Chaos, gods or dark magic. There are no elf vampires, elf chaos followers are the same power level as regular elves (whereas humans get supercharged), and there are no elf "grail knights", the closest we get is phoenix guard and they're not as strong. Elven reproduction is so slow no new elf elites can effectively be made either until the war is over anyway.

    That's assuming Lileath actually stops supporting Bretonnians, which she didn't do in previous human-elf conflicts.
    This would not be some small conflict
    1. The world is **** because no Vortex
    2. Sigmar is also released
    Based on what you think she can't ? elfs are not interest in becoming Vampires.
    You said no outside forces so Chaos would not interfere so there is no reason for the vortex?
    Why would sigmar be back?He is a god not a mage trapped in stasis
    There are no elf vampires, maybe they theoretically can but they don't. If it enhanced their powers to the same extent it enhances human powers, someone certainly would try.

    Destroying the Vortex is basically **** up the world, even if we say the daemons don't interfere for this conflict it's not a victory if you defeat the humans and then the world ends anyway.

    Sigmar is back for the same reason he's back in the ET. He's trapped in the Vortex. I'll add that he's the only one who can beat the likes of Ka'bandha (who soloed 5 other Incarnates) and stalemate Archaon in a 1v1 fight.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,959

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by looking up the army comps for scenario based TT battles or just reading about typical army compositions in the lore.

    Have you any proof of elves having more mages in total? With their population problems seems to be a stretch.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore. And yes, let's just ignore he fact that "Chaos Champions" are not cav and they mention specifically the units with the best TT stats.

  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 126

    I am yet to see a compeling argument why would an elven goddess be against the elves in a war in which it is humans vs elves

    once again she had an avatar of anther god kill itself for attacking the brets and stop the wild hunts agaisnt brets for hundreds of years. She would at best help both sides and at worse help neither
  • Coldrage20Coldrage20 Registered Users Posts: 126

    I am yet to see a compeling argument why would an elven goddess be against the elves in a war in which it is humans vs elves

    Grail knights maintain their powers in ET even when they learn about Lileath and forsake her. And before end times, they fight and kill Dark Elves and Wood Elves, but don't lose their powers anyway.
    No new grail knights and there are not much of them. Also she can give similar blessing to elfs instead

    I would note if we no outside influences are allowed Caledor Dragontamer and his mages are free to enter the fray
    I don't think she can give similar blessings to elves. Only humans seem to get superpowers when influenced by Chaos, gods or dark magic. There are no elf vampires, elf chaos followers are the same power level as regular elves (whereas humans get supercharged), and there are no elf "grail knights", the closest we get is phoenix guard and they're not as strong. Elven reproduction is so slow no new elf elites can effectively be made either until the war is over anyway.

    That's assuming Lileath actually stops supporting Bretonnians, which she didn't do in previous human-elf conflicts.
    This would not be some small conflict
    1. The world is **** because no Vortex
    2. Sigmar is also released
    Based on what you think she can't ? elfs are not interest in becoming Vampires.
    You said no outside forces so Chaos would not interfere so there is no reason for the vortex?
    Why would sigmar be back?He is a god not a mage trapped in stasis
    elfs can not become vampires. the magic doesnt work on them
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,959

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,620
    edited August 29

    Dark Elves choose to use True Dhar because it requires more will and absolutism to wield than High Magic, which requires tranquillity, focus, and patience. At the bidding of the insane Witch King himself, the Dark Elves have bent all their arcane knowledge to creating throughout Naggaroth an environment where True Dhar can form more easily than almost anywhere else in the world.

    If there is little or no True Dhar in their vicinity, then Dark Elf sorcerers like Malekith and Morathi are able to channel and crush together all the Winds of Magic, focussing them perfectly to create an entirely intentional manifestation of Dhar that they can utilise as they please


    Humans

    True Dhar must be actively wrestled into shape, requiring supreme strength of mind, a megalomaniacal self-confidence, and an absolutism of will and purpose that only Humans of true or borderline insanity could ever hope to possess. Even the most sane and balanced person exposed long enough to the malign energy of True Dhar will become psychotic, absolutely self-obsessed, and completely uncaring of other living creatures.


    Very few humans can use it and nor can they ‘create it’, unlike the DE.

    They’re just second best, I don’t know why this is a point to argue.

    Did I say they're better? I said they're not that much weaker, and more numerous to boot. And there are some special cases like Nagash, who became more powerful than any elf.

    Also no, they're not second best, probably fourth best at most. Slaan > Tzeentch Daemons > Elves > Humans.

    High Magic, also called True Magic or Qhaysh, is the art of using all of the Winds of Magic in harmony and unison, creating some of the most powerful spells known to mortal-kind. Exclusive to the Elves and Slann, High Magic spells are powerful, beyond the ken of Human minds and ability. In fact, the spells Teclis taught the Human Wizards were but minor spells of True Magic. Teclis' Human students revealed they lacked the finesse at manipulating anything more complicated than what could be achieved through a single Wind. The reason is because Elves are better suited to sensing the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic better than any other race, anticipating dangerous changes before they occur. Its polar opposite is True Dhar.

    Humans are nothing like on par with Elves.

    Yep, they're maybe like 30% weaker on average and much more numerous. Also humans can use Dhar, which is the equivalent of High Magic. And can invent new things elves couldn't, as demonstrated earlier.
    ‘30%’ - pick a percentage.. any percentage.
    I'm going by TT power levels, for the lack of better power scale. If we talk about feats, human wizards have feats just as impressive as shown earlier. Otherwise we're just going by armybook BS hype texts, comparing which is an exercise in futility.
    Armybook BS.. you mean you the lore?
    No, I mean BS overexaggerations each armybook makes. Everyone is the best. Grail Knights are the best and better than Vampires but Vampires are the best and better than Grail Knights. You can't seriously make any conclusions based on that. Then you have the stats that give you a more reasonable view on power levels.
    They are that much weaker. If the HE can use complex high magic and humans can't even manipulate more than one wind of magic at once they a inferior. The are not in tune with what they are using.

    Every example you showed me on that little idea of yours fell short. The Armybooks simply tell the standard to the extreme abilities of each race as they are meant to do.
    Wielding all winds is only an advantage in terms of flexibility, a single wind can be as destructive as any other. There are humans wielding multiple winds as well as I've shown before, just not all 8 (well, except for the Fay).

    You haven't shown any examples at all, apart from some hype texts, which are plentiful on both sides. I have shown examples of human mages accomplishing feats similar to elves or surpassing them on occasion.

    Another one that was already posted earlier:

    "By concentrating their attack on Ulthuan and leaving the isle of Albion, the Chaos hordes made a fatal flaw in their plan of conquest. The Truthsayers, or Druids as they were called by the people of Albion, gathered together the Giants and bade them also to construct a series of stone circles. With such immense strength at their disposal, the Truthsayers soon had a great many of these circles whose mystical properties would allow them to channel their spells and bind the forces of Chaos to the north.

    In many ways their mastery of this form of magic was better than that of the Elves. Not only were they able to contain the Chaos mists, but they were also able to use the stones to weave their own veil of fog around their island, protecting what they called the Ogham Stones from danger. The Elves would certainly have been overrun had the Druids of Albion not stemmed the flow. But the mist that shrouded the isle also blocked out the sun. Something in the nature of the stone circles attracted rain and storms, and over a short period of time the fertile land of Albion became a boggy region where few crops grew."

    And there are many more examples.

    Numbers do matter a lot, Skaven Grey Seers were able to overpower the Slaan in the moon tug-o-war in the end times, despite every Grey Seer being much weaker than the Slaan and the Slaan being the ultimate magic users of the setting. So, a lot of weaker mages can be > a few strong mages.

    I can also start taking the hype texts literally. E.g. Empire armybook says:

    "Were it not for the endless wars, famines, and corruption that has plagued the Empire's long history, no other nation could have hope to stop them should they be allowed to concentrate their entire military might into a single earth-shattering campaign".

    Given that in this scenario, Empire is united and external forces don't interfere, no other nation could hope to stop them. Empire wins, case closed. That's how arguing based on BS over-exaggerations in the armybooks sounds.
    We have some top tier barrel scraping going on here.

    You’re missing the point. It’s not about multiple magic, it’s about interacting those magics into something single. Humans simply aren’t advanced enough to do it. It’s like a mathematician being unable to mix trig and calculus, fine doing them separate, but together? No. That would mean they are less of a mathematical than someone who can. This is obvious.

    The entire point about Albion is beyond me. Albion is a naturally powerful place and they channeled some energy.. ipso facto they could take a HE out in magic. Sigh..

    Numbers matter (never said they didn’t). How many Skaven? How good were they? How good were the Slann involved? What was the context? What a pointless paragraph.

    ‘Should they be allowed’ nuff said. How can you have an army in a single campaign against multiple armies and factions?

    Again, top quality barrel scraping.

    Very nice metaphors, but all beside the point. Kemmler, a single human necromancer, is able to threaten the entire WE kingdom with their more powerful mages. Elf magic doesn't seem so superior in practice. How better is high magic than mastery of dhar or a single wind? You have no reference.

    They would totally be allowed in described circumstances if we remove other threats and humans unite. Empire destroys Ulthuan in a single campaign, while the rest of humanity deals with minor elf factions. The end. Empire is also said to be the most powerful nation in the Old World even in the current state, which includes WE and Dwarfs (who rekt HE in the past in War of the Beard).

    While HE are said to be on their way out even by their own armybook:

    "Isolated and alone in a world they no longer control, the High Elves are facing the twilight years of their existence, their cities no longer bustling with vibrancy and life as they used to be but now serve as a gloomy reminder of their ultimate, impending demise."

    "Facing this
    steady decline, the High Elves remain resolute and
    unbowed. The time of the High Elves has passed, or so
    it is said, yet such is their pride that they fight on
    nonetheless. If oblivion is indeed to be their fate, they
    have chosen to face it with arrow nocked and sword
    held high, defending the world they have loved to the
    last."

    Top quality barrel scaping indeed, but on your end, with no actual examples of elf superiority.
    No, it is the point. If an Elf can control and are in tune with the winds of magic they are better at controlling them in all contexts. If you fully understand trig and calculus you can combine them. If you gave a reasonable knowledge of both, chances are you can’t. This is fundamental to knowledge, first understanding the parts and then the whole.

    The amount of times you’ve said something as if it proves your point and I’ve had a quick check and it doesn’t makes me think this Kemmler narrative will go the same way. Is he supported by the magic of the vampires, is there some special narrative plot that allows this similar to the BM and Huskk Gnawbone? Do you actually have an example of the factions we are actually discussing invading the WEs? Nope.

    Apart from the fact that HE are proven better magic users than humans? If you say so.

    Let’s just pick a few words out ‘I believe’, ‘most of the Greyseers’ ; ‘most of the Slann’

    It’s the eye for detail I like, bordering on Karl Pilkington level of storytelling.. ‘there was a story about some sparrows that were somewhere’
    No, it's your handwaving of how things work, with no actual examples of how it's so much better, while I provide actual examples where human mages accomplish comparable or better feats (and I'm not even claiming they're better, just that it's not a given that HE will have an overwhelming magical superiority vs a bigger number of human mages). BM are not even particularly powerful mages (Morghur isn't a mage at all). Factions we're discussing have no motivation to invade WE, nor do WE have a motivation to fight them. I have examples of them beating WE in battle with even numbers though, posted earlier.

    Are HE better magic users on average than humans individually? Yes. Is it enough for all HE mages to match all human mages and for HE to beat human armies? Well, Empire armybook says it wins, so they totally can't lose. That's the current level of the argument.

    Well, to be specific, the lore says it was ALL of the Slaans, Mazdamundi included. It's unclear if it were all of the Grey Seers, but I assume at least the vast majority of them was involved (some outside of the order and affiliated with particular clans might not have participated). I don't like absolutist statements, because I try to actually take a moderate look on the events and account for possible inaccuracies in the storytelling. But I can totally start going around with absolutist statements like you do.
    Really? I clearly explain the complexities of manipulating the winds of magic, something humans can't even begin to understand which is stated clearly in the lore which I referenced and your answer is, some inhabitants of Albion created some stone circles in a place blessed with magic by the old ones which is of course better than being able to feel and manipulate the winds? You site Dhar to bring humans up to the same level as the Elves yet it's a clumsy skill that take pure will and very few humans can do it anyway, nor can they produce it themselves, but that's no evidence?

    The Empire armybook says nothing of the sort, unless you take away important sections of the human personality or natural disasters.

    Moghur, an unnatural creation that corrupts everything that he comes into contact with and was finally killed by the WE, not something the humans would've been able to do.

    I'll tell you what, this Slann vs Greyseer is getting better.

    How many though? All of them
    How many is all of them? Dunno
    What are the circumstances? Dunno
    What's the context? Dunno?
    Where the Slann focusing on the corruptive power of Morislab and not all Skaven? ssshhhh

    Good stuff.
    You clearly explain the complexities of something that has no quantifiable complexity, because it does not exist. You ask me to provide exact numbers and account for all possible external factors, while you yourself don't provide or accout for any. Is high magic 2 times harder to master? 3? Is it more powerful than a strong single wind user? By how much? Can a single high magic user take on 2 or more single wind users? Do we account for the vast power spectrum among said magic users? Is a random elf mage stronger than Balthasar Gelt?

    Empire armybooks says exactly what it says, united empire stomps (and we assume united empire, just like we assume united elves, otherwise we "discount the important aspect that high elves hate the dark elves") and is the strongest faction in the old world when united. HElves have lost their dominant position long ago.

    How many mages elves have? dunno
    How much more powerful than a human mage they are? dunno
    Is an average mage better than a cannon? dunno
    What are the circumstances of the battle? also dunno

    I give you actual examples with known outcomes, you give general talk with no numbers, proof or anything but that's supposed to be taken as the absolute truth.

    Good stuff indeed.
    I quote the meaning of high magic that states it requires an understanding and connection to the winds of magic that is 'beyond the ken' of man. It can't be any clearer.

    Your point is.. an unknown amount of Skaven beat an unknown amount of Slann so humans win. I'm not saying you're missing everything, I'm saying you're missing everything, what info did you actually give? Was it the magic of 1 vs the magic of another? No, the Slann had to fight against the Chaos energy of Morisleb not the Greyseers, so, what is your point apart from the idea that numbers matter? Yeah, numbers is a single factor in a sea of factors.

    You need to read your own evidence.. it said if you take away famine, take away corruption and allow everyone to work together in unison in a single campaign the would be unstoppable.. well if you took away Skaven cowardice and their self serving nature Skaven would be invincible.. but you can't. Just like you can't get rid of famine or corruption with a single finger click.

    Read and understand your own evidence, it would save me explaining it to you.
    We do take away high elf and dark elf hatred of each other, and we take away human lack of cooperation. Only fair. Elves united, humans united. Skaven example just shows that being lauded as "the most powerful" magical race ever doesn't mean that you win, you can be beaten by a bigger number of weaker mages. Do humans have the necessary numbers advantage? We don't know, they could. So you can't claim that the elves would win just because their mages are individually stronger.

    Does "beyond the ken of men" mean that they're 10% stronger? 20% stronger? 50% stronger? 10x stronger? Is any elf mage superior to any human mage? I'll tell you it's not 10x stronger, because Gelt would wipe the floor with any hero-level high elf mage. How does that fare with the fact that certain human individuals have achieved things with magic most elves can only dream of?

    I suggest you take your own advice.
    Ermmm no. All factions work together, however, that’s doesn’t mean humans within the Empire don’t take part in corruption for personal gain nor do famines and other natural disasters suddenly stop (especially if a few clandestine troops salt the Earth). In the same way you can’t say Skaven will stop backstabbing members of their own race or suddenly turn into the Tau.

    Again, admitting the guesswork involved and claiming to know an outcome there’s no evidence for. The highest for of magic is unknowable by humans, why? They’re second rate at magic. In this even a debate?

    Not really, as you’ve still not given any examples and as we both know as soon as you do a simple read through or check will prove you wrong. Same old; same old.

    I'm not calming I know the outcome. I'm not the one making absolutist statements here, not until I start to emulate your type of arguments anyway. After all you're saying that elves are superior and can win being outnumbered 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 no matter what. A lot of famines in Empire are caused by the Skaven, who we discount as "external forces" (if we don't discount external forces, it's probably even worse for Elves). All elves work together, all human provinces work together. Or else we can start arguing that Dark Elves would start randomly sacking cities of their allies (because it's their nature).

    You and I both know that I've given at least some approximations which power levels can be based on (because WHFB lore is super vague and you can't say things for sure), while all your arguments are baseless handwaving with nothing behind them. So yes, same old.

    I'll give you another absolutist statement based on the armybook ads:

    "Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat"

    Does that mention elves anywhere? No. So elven warriors can't possibly ever match a Grail Knight in combat, because it says so here.
    When did I make absolute claims? It’s generally accepted that the Slann and HE are the most powerful magic users in the WH universe, that’s why they can use more technical versions of it. If you can use the most technical version than your basics are better, so in general, you’re better at magic. Your points are bordering on odd, a number of Skaven beat a number of LM, ipso facto men are stronger than elves.. seriously?

    You make the same mistake over and over again. I need to break it down for you so I don’t have to repeat this the next time:

    Among the most fearsome fighters in the World, only the most skilled Blood Knights and Chaos Champions can hope to match a Grail Knight in combat


    It’s saying that Grail Knights are ‘among’ some of the best cavalry in the world, not ‘the’ most. They’re not going to mention every single possible cavalry unit. See?

    They’re talking about heavy cavalry and more likely their likely enemies. You need to start thinking a little deeper and with a little more clarity, it’s tiresome pointing out the basics.
    I didn't say that humans surely win, I said it's not a given elves would. Elves being individually more technical mages on average doesn't mean they always win, especially vs superior numbers, nor does it mean that any elf is better than any human at magic. I agree that elves on a 1v1 basis are better on average, but there are exceptions as well.

    Grail Knights are not compared to cavalry, they're said to be the most fearsome fighters in the world, cavalry or not. The only two other groups who can match them are Blood Knights and Chaos Champions. They could've mentioned more, or just generally mentioned that they are one of the strongest, but they explicitly mention these 3 groups as the most elite. Btw TT also totally supports this, no non monstrous cavalry can match these 3 (and their riders have stats superior to pretty much every other human sized troops).

    Now do I think it's impossible for an elf to beat a grail knight? No, but on average grail knights are stronger than even elite elves. But It's not impossible for a human mage to beat an elf mage either, and there are enough examples in the lore. Even if on average they are inferior.


    :D

    They still can't hope to match a Grail Knight though, because the armybook says so.
    There’s nothing to suggest that elves would be seriously outnumbered. They are all naturally attuned to the WoM and would more than likely be overall stronger. The skills and understanding to use multiple (at once) WoM puts the x beyond human ability. The evidence is in the lore.

    Yes, it’s a coincidence that they are compared to 2 other similar heavy cavalry of their natural enemies 🤦🏻

    Painful.

    Yes, it's a complete coincidence they've mentioned the 3 most powerful human sized units on TT (by far), lol.

    Per elf lore, they usually have 1-2 mages per army. Per empire lore, they usually have at least one wizard per army. If we add up all human nations, humans have more armies. There are tons of examples human mages surpassing the elves in the lore, so while on average they are stronger, an elf mage is not always stronger that a human mage. Unless you're gonna seriously argue a random elf mage can match Kadon, Shriebner, Gelt or Kemmler.

    Painful indeed.
    Yes, let’s just forget that heavy cav can be taken by elite spears no matter how elite and let’s just ignore the fact they’re talking about cavalry and the enemies of Bretonnia.. like they usually do.

    Have we got to that point were you’re just pulling figures out of your behind? Oh no, I heard they take a 100 per battle.. I read it somewhere 🤦🏻
    You can easily look it up by reading about high elf mages and battle wizards.

    Spears are not a counter to cav on TT and Grail Knights fight on foot often and just as well in the lore.
    I think that’s good advice for you tbf.

    So, knights run straight into spears and Grail Knights are likely to be on foot in battle?

    Sigh..
    You're the one constantly asking for references for stuff obvious to everyone who understands WHFB like Chaos Warriors having the most elite soldiers.

    Grail knights fight on foot on multiple occasions so I don't see why they wouldn't go on foot if the situation requires it, they're not glued to the horse. On TT spears are not anti cav. Historically, spears are a soft counter to heavy cav at most.

    Sigh indeed.

This discussion has been closed.