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Cavalty beta patch doesn't change much :/ Not sure where to post this

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  • drogarito#2548drogarito#2548 Registered Users Posts: 1,816
    Itharus said:

    If cavalry gets OP, races like Skaven that don't have cavalry wouldn't stand a chance against it. It would be cool if units like spearmen and halberdiers are immune to charge knockback effect

    Skaven have many direct and devastating counters to cavalry, don't worry. Just use all the tools in your tool box.
    I cannot underline how wrong it is to see Skaven Halberdiers getting melted and scattered by a frontal cavalry charge. I would completely understand if the unit is caught from the rear or from the back. That makes sense, to see them flying around due to the charge. And I am talking multiplayer, where you need to think about every $ spent. But having a knockdown effect head on to the halberd is just stupid. Like, imagine cavalry charging to a sarissa phalanx unit, and phalangites all of the sudden start flying around as if they were made of paper or something. MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL! Make cavalry more powerful but with a price. Don't make them OP. Every type of unit should have its counter.
  • PhobochaiPhobochai Registered Users Posts: 27
    Some people think it's fine and balanced to have GW infantry wreck cav that cost more than they do.

    On top of that, GW infantry also wreck shielded infantry in a melee, and stomp all over anti-large spearmen or halberds. As if it isn't enough that they already trade very well vs heroes & lords, mounted or on foot,

    GW infantry, the one infantry to kill them all.

    Heaven forbid elite shock cav actually out trades GW infantry.. can't have that.

    Then they complain about potential imbalance if cav is strong, and how you would have to spam spearmen to counter cav, ignoring the fact that cav are expensive and nobody spams them in MP. Or the fact cav dies easily to missile units as they are a large & easy to hit target.

    It really is pathetic what CA has done to heavy cav in WH1 and 2.
  • Iron_Crown#5779Iron_Crown#5779 Registered Users Posts: 1,853
    The biggest problem with cavalry apart from the counter-charge issue is that they simply take way too much damage too quickly. Which I guess happens because they are large entities and are always almost immediately sourrounded by a number of enemy infantry entities. So while every cavalry entity can only attack one foe at a time, they are attacked by many foes at once.

    But would a cavalry unit really let this happen? Especially an elite one riding imposing beasts like a Demigryph? They just ride into a crowd and then stand there while the enemy infantry fearlessly surround them? Even if you try to disengage immediately after the charge, it almost never works and many riders get stuck. The rest of the unit stops moving properly because they always try to get back to their trapped comrades but those will always die anyway because they can't get out. And while they are trying, they appear to not even fight back anymore.

    An elite cavalry unit should lose fewer entities in a typical battle than a low-tier infantry unit. Their much smaller unit size clearly suggests that they should, and this is in line with historical battles where knights were far less numerous than peasant fighters but also tended to survive battles much better. But in this game it's the exact opposite: Cavalry is always completely beat up after every battle, losing most of their health in the first few seconds of an engagement, while infantry can fight for minutes and still comes out of the battle with minimal losses. That's just completely wrong, and any solution must be measured by whether it can achieve different results here.

  • bli-nk#6314bli-nk#6314 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,980
    edited September 2021
    Cavalry should probably have some type of ward save going along with the charge bonus that ticks down- maybe starts at 50% and decreases as charge bonus fades, would lower casualties when cycle charging.

    High mass infantry or braced infantry would take relatively few casualties and could still tie up the cavalry before they could withdraw so shock cavalry would really have to cycle charge successfully a few times to get their value which puts them more often in higher risk to get full value area for units but they could also finish off already damaged or unbraced units with few casualties along with the normal job of chasing routers to make the payoff over a full battle more likely if used well.

    Theoretically cavalry charge into rear/flank of units should do more damage and it sort of does depending on a lot of factors but even charging the rear of an infantry unit, enough models turn quickly enough they end up doing only a little bit less damage than the cavalry did on the charge so a timed ward save to represent the 'shock' of the charge seems appropriate.

    I would rather have that implemented than extra splash damage to cavalry which can quickly get out of hand as seen in 3K.
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society.” Mark Twain
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,481
    Heavy cavalry in the fashion of knights should really not be so susceptible to infantry that aren't wielding things like halberds (or other like polearms) or long spears/pikes. And even charging spearmen are going to be at a disadvantage against charging knights.

    Light cavalry or medium cavalry? It should go better to an extent. But heavily armored knights on barded warhorses aren't being given their due. Also lance-armed cavalry should have a high advantage against anything that's not wielding an appropriate polearm. Remember that these are first strike weapons (and longer than basic spears, mind you) -- designed to break the first couple ranks so that the knights can get in among the now terrified enemy and start hacking for a bit.

    I'm starting to think the entire problem here is that AP damage is just TOO DAMNED PREVALENT in this series -- PERIOD. And even small amounts add up insanely quickly given how many models are in units. It's especially awful on ranged units.

    There needs to be some sort of mitigating factor in some scenarios I think. Even if it's just giving certain units physical resist or some other mitigating aid against other classes of unit. Make giants and SEM more resistant to basic missile fire while you're at it -- it should take artillery to properly hurt most of those at range.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    O god, I read all this nonsense and I see CA giving in and enabling brainless Rohirrim charges for all.

    Well, the game's already crap on battlefield balance thanks to OP
    Ichon said:

    Cavalry should probably have some type of ward save going along with the charge bonus that ticks down- maybe starts at 50% and decreases as charge bonus fades, would lower casualties when cycle charging uty high mass infantry or braced infantry would take relatively few casualties and could still tie up the cavalry before they could withdraw so shock cavalry would really have to cycle charge successfully a few times to get their value which puts them more often in higher area for units but they could also finish off alrady damaged or unbraced units with few casualties.

    Theoretically cavalry charge into rear/flank of units should do more damage and it sort of does depending on a lot of factors but even charging the rear of an infantry unit, enough models turn quickly enough they end up doing only a little bit less damage than the cavalry did on the charge so a timed ward save to represent the 'shock' of the charge seems appropriate.

    I would rather have that implemented than extra splash damage to cavalry which can quickly get out of hand as seen in 3K.

    Not a fan of this. So if a cavalry unit is attacked by something else mid-charge, that damage is mitigated too no matter what it is? Would cause more problems than it solves.

    Also, the first thing CA would have to solve is to make sure that loose formation units aren't better prepared to take charges and have an easier time entangling charging units than tight formation units. A unit of Skavenslaves or Zombies can deal with charging cavalry better than Stormvermin or Grave Guard which is plain dumb and an issue CA let fester for years now.
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,481
    I don't think anyone wants cavalry to be able to charge through 100 ranks of braced spearmen?

    I'd love some orc spearmen though ;)

    The horses running thru endless ranks of orcs with spears was really stupid in those movies. I won't even comment on horses charging down what was nearly a cliff in two towers.

    Dat speech, tho.
  • drogarito#2548drogarito#2548 Registered Users Posts: 1,816
    The trait "Charge Defence against Large" *( which actually negates the charge effect of any large units such as cavalry or SEM when bracing) actually doesn't work properly, since halberders are still flying around. And this trait should prevent knockback when bracing. That does not mean that spearmen will get OP, because skaven halberds are elite skaven spearmen unit. Clanrats Spears and eshin triads both have "charge defence against large" trait, but they are actually terrible for head on charge. Maybe low-tier units such as Clanrats shouldn't have this trait but having this trait working for Eshin and halberds would make a lot of sense, especially if you have in mind that Skaven alone don't have flying nor cavalry and are one of the slowest factions in the game (only beaten by the dwarves). So @CA_Simone this is something you all should have in mind regarding the new cavalry patch. To sum it up, trash-tier spearmen shouldn't be immune to knockback, but mid-tier and high tier definitely should. I mean, what's the point of being an elite spearmen unit when you can't withstand a unit that you are THE COUNTER in the first place.
  • drogarito#2548drogarito#2548 Registered Users Posts: 1,816
  • drogarito#2548drogarito#2548 Registered Users Posts: 1,816
    And yeah, we need the "Bracing" icon, for sure!
  • Gloire_bbGloire_bb Registered Users Posts: 17
    Ichon said:


    Devs please take a look, it reiterates the point of this post. I came to similar conclusions. Heavy cavalry need to stand out as elite units, perhaps slightly more expensive elite units. Mirroring the elite knights of the tabletop game and medieval warfare wouldn't be a bad thing, in my view. Any change that makes them more distinct, fulfilling their intended niche on the battlefield would be a good one.

    The main problem I have with many of these videos is 'good' micro seems to include frontal charges agaisnt heavy infantry.

    That was never considered 'good' micro in past TWs where it was obvious that cavalry need to attack from the flank or rear.
    To be fair. it is a basic logical mistake.
    Whole point of heavy cavalry is ability to deliver frontal charges - against anything other than pikes. Otherwise, its whole point is being kinda lost - no matter if it is a historical or fantasy game.
    Cycle charging into the rear needs neither heaviest horses and armor - in fact, quite the opposite.

    When applied to TW:WH games - maybe this logic shall be applied carefully (it's simple to overdo things in a game with a ton of monstrous cav), but it still stands.
  • bli-nk#6314bli-nk#6314 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,980
    edited September 2021

    O god, I read all this nonsense and I see CA giving in and enabling brainless Rohirrim charges for all.

    Not a fan of this. So if a cavalry unit is attacked by something else mid-charge, that damage is mitigated too no matter what it is? Would cause more problems than it solves.

    Also, the first thing CA would have to solve is to make sure that loose formation units aren't better prepared to take charges and have an easier time entangling charging units than tight formation units. A unit of Skavenslaves or Zombies can deal with charging cavalry better than Stormvermin or Grave Guard which is plain dumb and an issue CA let fester for years now.

    Yes, so far much of the cavalry complaints I have seen want cavalry to win frontal charges which is not something people used to expect for TW. That said, not everyone is clamoring for such crazy changes and cavalry has definite issues which need to be addressed for the future of the game.

    Cavalry getting a ward save could only be activated if the cavalry actually reach their target- if they are attacked at the same time either they also get the bonus vs the target which attacked them which seems right if the cavalry were in charge formation, they are basically attacking the attackers- if the attackers are themselves cavalry they also get a ward save and the end result is the cavalry do some damage to their main target if it wasn't braced but are then tangled up and tables turned once the charge bonus/ward save wears off in a few seconds.

    Other option is that any attack that hits more than 10% of the models of any unit disrupts the charge bonus/ward save.

    Cavalry have way too much problems with incidental contact totally disrupting movement/charge currently and I don't see CA solving that anytime soon so roughly approximating a full charge disruption vs incidental contact on the peripheray of a charging unit needs to be dealt with.
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society.” Mark Twain
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited September 2021
    Gloire_bb said:

    <
    Whole point of heavy cavalry is ability to deliver frontal charges - against anything other than pikes.

    Yeah no, that's actually not at all the point of heavy cavalry. We don't even have any pike unit in the game, so what then, heavy cavalry can just obliterate any infantry frontline in the most braindead and mindless manner possible? How much more do you want battles to get dumbed down?

    The trait "Charge Defence against Large" *( which actually negates the charge effect of any large units such as cavalry or SEM when bracing) actually doesn't work properly, since halberders are still flying around.

    CDvL only negates the charge bonus to attacks. Knockdown is a completely separate calculation. And by that I mean whether a unit gets knocked around is independent of whether it took any damage. So you can have soldiers get punted across the battlefield but not suffering any damage which is so unbelievably STUPID.

    This disconnect is why knockdown is utter crap in this game and obscures and obfuscates interactions.
  • Gloire_bbGloire_bb Registered Users Posts: 17

    Gloire_bb said:

    <
    Whole point of heavy cavalry is ability to deliver frontal charges - against anything other than pikes.

    Yeah no, that's actually not at all the point of heavy cavalry. We don't even have any pike unit in the game, so what then, heavy cavalry can just obliterate any infantry frontline in the most braindead and mindless manner possible? How much more do you want battles to get dumbed down?
    Historical/role bickering:
    The whole point of armor on the rider and the horse is surviving the charge and the ensuing melee.
    If anything, heavy armor on the rider and especially on the steed drastically reduces its ability to cycle anything - because it's simply heavy, and horses laden so heavily become only capable of 1, at best 2 charges (and you won't have replacement destriers in armor on standby), are incapable of pursuit, and so on.
    There is a lot of other things to talk about, but in the end it leads to somewhat weird representation of heavy cav in all TW games - it does things it shouldn't, it can't do that it should and it can do other things it shouldn't be able to.
    In a way, we have never even played heavy shock cav before in TW games.

    Game bickering:
    1, while we don't have any pikes indeed - there is more than enough spear units with charge resistance. 2, pikes will likely appear eventually - there aren't too many of them, but they're actually present in WH lore.
    Furthermore, actually further taking apart capabilities and gameplay of shock and melee cavalries, horse and monster cavs, light, medium and heavy cavs, capabilities of armoured and unarmoured steeds - will only make game richer.

    2, Yes, spear infantry gameplay will become more complex than just brace them&watch, leaving out cycle charging dilemma completely. Isn't it only appropriate to require some clicks from both sides?
    This is especially applicable to WH, where bonus v large works against both cavalry AND monstrous units, which aren't exactly the same thing.

    3, Finally - it honestly is weird that all heavy/melee infantry by design is essentially secondary anti-cav infantry. Competition b/n heavy(shock) cav and heavy infantry is a competition between two unspecialized units outside of their area of competence. One-sided slaughter doesn't make too much sense.
  • Ninaran#8122Ninaran#8122 Registered Users Posts: 554
    Itharus said:

    If cavalry gets OP, races like Skaven that don't have cavalry wouldn't stand a chance against it. It would be cool if units like spearmen and halberdiers are immune to charge knockback effect

    Skaven have many direct and devastating counters to cavalry, don't worry. Just use all the tools in your tool box.
    >Just use every tool in your tool box
    >meanwhile, cavalry enjoyers: "I want to frontal charge this highly offensive shock infantry without repercussions, also braced halberds need nerfs!"

    It's like poetry.
  • Iron_Crown#5779Iron_Crown#5779 Registered Users Posts: 1,853
    I don't see why any unit except those that are braced AND wield special anti-cavalry weapons that are at least 2 meters long (halberds, pikes) shouldn't be extremely vulnerable to cavalry charges, including frontal charges. How is a rat or a man with a simple sword going to withstand the charge of an armored horse coming full speed at him? It would require completely suicidal behavior to even try and get a counter-attack in. Any sane fighter would only try to evade the horse and the rider's weapon, and survive.

    Large multiple-entity units are all way too weak in this game. They should be much more effective, probably cost more, and be rare.

  • EarthDragonEarthDragon Registered Users Posts: 1,180
    Conversation is happening fast but I wanted to highlight something: AP damage

    It is way too prevalent, and those that have it often have too much.

    There could be way more varying degrees being implemented, but too many AP weapons go from 21 reg and 7 AP to 7 reg and 21 AP.

    More weapons could be at 40-50-60% AP ratios, and not immediately over to 75% land.

    If that was more under control, we could actually get back to cavalry not all having to move at 80+ as slower more heavily armored Cav wouldn’t get chewed up in seconds by over half the damn infantry.

    I don’t know why the over abundance of Anti-large and AP doesn’t come up during these discussion, at least when it comes to how big some of these bonuses are and whether it really needs to be that way
  • bli-nk#6314bli-nk#6314 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,980


    It is way too prevalent, and those that have it often have too much.

    More weapons could be at 40-50-60% AP ratios, and not immediately over to 75% land.

    If that was more under control, we could actually get back to cavalry not all having to move at 80+ as slower more heavily armored Cav wouldn’t get chewed up in seconds by over half the damn infantry.

    I don’t know why the over abundance of Anti-large and AP doesn’t come up during these discussion, at least when it comes to how big some of these bonuses are and whether it really needs to be that way

    Because of SEM and Lords/Heroes being nearly invulnerable without facing AP. SEM changes are interesting and partially address that but I distinctly remember in WH1 when there weren't as many AP units that a single Lord + Hero could win a siege assault vs full garrison.

    Even now it can happen in Belegar and some other campaigns with the ancestral ghosts though those have extra physical resistance/ward save buffs going on.

    I think part of it is that CA started the design cycle of the game with rock, paper, scissors, formula of all other TWs in mind but then lost track with SEM, monstrous infantry, flyers, and characters all of which can belong to different categories specializing vs something else and 90% of the time that vs requires some AP as armor and MD are the main defensive stats on all units. I personally think MD is a bit under-used but that is becuse CA designed ranged units to be a bit OP and thus units with high MD but low armour can be deleted rather quickly, even anyting with less than 100 armour and no shields can die right quick vs 2 ranged units targeting them.

    So much of the problems would be fixed if ranged had lower accuracy, especially at long distance, AND there were less AP on most units.
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society.” Mark Twain
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,481
    Ninaran said:

    Itharus said:

    If cavalry gets OP, races like Skaven that don't have cavalry wouldn't stand a chance against it. It would be cool if units like spearmen and halberdiers are immune to charge knockback effect

    Skaven have many direct and devastating counters to cavalry, don't worry. Just use all the tools in your tool box.
    >Just use every tool in your tool box
    >meanwhile, cavalry enjoyers: "I want to frontal charge this highly offensive shock infantry without repercussions, also braced halberds need nerfs!"

    It's like poetry.
    I never said braced halberds need nerfs. I said braced polearm units should be the ones who properly resist a charge like this, where as others with hand weapons shouldn't do so hot. If I indicated halberds need a nerf, then it was probably a typo. I did suggest nerfing Armor Piercing damage though - which would indirectly nerf Halberds I suppose.

    Also... wtf are people thinking Heavy Knights never charged into infantry for? That's precisely what they were for... that and against other cavalry. Even basic units of spearmen were not knight-proof. Again. See lances. Remember that a lance is like a couched frigging pike. It's a first strike weapon The lances would break the first couple of ranks and allow the knights to plough in and wreak havoc. These knights were typically followed by a charge of infantry behind them if it was a frontal charge. This is why pikes and spikey hooked polearms became a thing (well, the pikes re-became a thing I suppose, lol).

    I mean did they say "oh look, lets charge into those spearmen!" -- lol no, but it did happen. And if the spearmen in question were conscripts it happened rather more frequently than you'd think. Honestly... being charged by heavy cavalry should come with a morale shock IMO. Seeing a large animal running at you is scary. A large armored animal running at you carrying an armored man wielding a lance aimed at your heart would be even more terrifying... especially when you're trapped in a formation and have no where to go -- that armor you wear won't stop a couched lance at the gallop.

    But yeah... this weird thought that cavalry were only fighting other cavalry is totally absurd.
  • gorgos96#5405gorgos96#5405 Member Registered Users Posts: 381
    Ichon said:


    It is way too prevalent, and those that have it often have too much.

    More weapons could be at 40-50-60% AP ratios, and not immediately over to 75% land.

    If that was more under control, we could actually get back to cavalry not all having to move at 80+ as slower more heavily armored Cav wouldn’t get chewed up in seconds by over half the damn infantry.

    I don’t know why the over abundance of Anti-large and AP doesn’t come up during these discussion, at least when it comes to how big some of these bonuses are and whether it really needs to be that way

    Because of SEM and Lords/Heroes being nearly invulnerable without facing AP. SEM changes are interesting and partially address that but I distinctly remember in WH1 when there weren't as many AP units that a single Lord + Hero could win a siege assault vs full garrison.

    Even now it can happen in Belegar and some other campaigns with the ancestral ghosts though those have extra physical resistance/ward save buffs going on.

    I think part of it is that CA started the design cycle of the game with rock, paper, scissors, formula of all other TWs in mind but then lost track with SEM, monstrous infantry, flyers, and characters all of which can belong to different categories specializing vs something else and 90% of the time that vs requires some AP as armor and MD are the main defensive stats on all units. I personally think MD is a bit under-used but that is becuse CA designed ranged units to be a bit OP and thus units with high MD but low armour can be deleted rather quickly, even anyting with less than 100 armour and no shields can die right quick vs 2 ranged units targeting them.

    So much of the problems would be fixed if ranged had lower accuracy, especially at long distance, AND there were less AP on most units.
    Lords and heros get wound mechanic too
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited September 2021
    Itharus said:

    Ninaran said:

    Itharus said:

    If cavalry gets OP, races like Skaven that don't have cavalry wouldn't stand a chance against it. It would be cool if units like spearmen and halberdiers are immune to charge knockback effect

    Skaven have many direct and devastating counters to cavalry, don't worry. Just use all the tools in your tool box.
    >Just use every tool in your tool box
    >meanwhile, cavalry enjoyers: "I want to frontal charge this highly offensive shock infantry without repercussions, also braced halberds need nerfs!"

    It's like poetry.
    I never said braced halberds need nerfs. I said braced polearm units should be the ones who properly resist a charge like this, where as others with hand weapons shouldn't do so hot. If I indicated halberds need a nerf, then it was probably a typo. I did suggest nerfing Armor Piercing damage though - which would indirectly nerf Halberds I suppose.

    Also... wtf are people thinking Heavy Knights never charged into infantry for? That's precisely what they were for... that and against other cavalry. Even basic units of spearmen were not knight-proof. Again. See lances. Remember that a lance is like a couched frigging pike. It's a first strike weapon The lances would break the first couple of ranks and allow the knights to plough in and wreak havoc. These knights were typically followed by a charge of infantry behind them if it was a frontal charge. This is why pikes and spikey hooked polearms became a thing (well, the pikes re-became a thing I suppose, lol).

    I mean did they say "oh look, lets charge into those spearmen!" -- lol no, but it did happen. And if the spearmen in question were conscripts it happened rather more frequently than you'd think. Honestly... being charged by heavy cavalry should come with a morale shock IMO. Seeing a large animal running at you is scary. A large armored animal running at you carrying an armored man wielding a lance aimed at your heart would be even more terrifying... especially when you're trapped in a formation and have no where to go -- that armor you wear won't stop a couched lance at the gallop.

    But yeah... this weird thought that cavalry were only fighting other cavalry is totally absurd.
    Nope, that's in fact not how heavy cavalry was ever used. When they charged from the front then only when they were secure in the knowledge that their targets would break and run away. If they stood their ground, it would have been massively dangerous to insist on the charge. You are not ramming into one guy, but an entire row of guys and that will cause your horse to come to a sudden stop, probably get you thrown off and have all the horsemen behind you crash into your horse.

    And that only worked in the middle ages when armies consisted for the most part of untrained peasant levies who'd be easily intimidated by the thunder of incoming heavy horsemen . As soon as professional infantry showed up again, heavy shock cavalry took a backseat and the heavy knights disappeared from the scene.

    The Rohirrim charge, which is 100% to blame for this misconception, is complete fantasy and would not have worked if the movies hadn't invoked cartoon physics where all the orks suddenly have all the weight and sturdiness of helium balloons.
  • gorgos96#5405gorgos96#5405 Member Registered Users Posts: 381

    Itharus said:

    Ninaran said:

    Itharus said:

    If cavalry gets OP, races like Skaven that don't have cavalry wouldn't stand a chance against it. It would be cool if units like spearmen and halberdiers are immune to charge knockback effect

    Skaven have many direct and devastating counters to cavalry, don't worry. Just use all the tools in your tool box.
    >Just use every tool in your tool box
    >meanwhile, cavalry enjoyers: "I want to frontal charge this highly offensive shock infantry without repercussions, also braced halberds need nerfs!"

    It's like poetry.
    I never said braced halberds need nerfs. I said braced polearm units should be the ones who properly resist a charge like this, where as others with hand weapons shouldn't do so hot. If I indicated halberds need a nerf, then it was probably a typo. I did suggest nerfing Armor Piercing damage though - which would indirectly nerf Halberds I suppose.

    Also... wtf are people thinking Heavy Knights never charged into infantry for? That's precisely what they were for... that and against other cavalry. Even basic units of spearmen were not knight-proof. Again. See lances. Remember that a lance is like a couched frigging pike. It's a first strike weapon The lances would break the first couple of ranks and allow the knights to plough in and wreak havoc. These knights were typically followed by a charge of infantry behind them if it was a frontal charge. This is why pikes and spikey hooked polearms became a thing (well, the pikes re-became a thing I suppose, lol).

    I mean did they say "oh look, lets charge into those spearmen!" -- lol no, but it did happen. And if the spearmen in question were conscripts it happened rather more frequently than you'd think. Honestly... being charged by heavy cavalry should come with a morale shock IMO. Seeing a large animal running at you is scary. A large armored animal running at you carrying an armored man wielding a lance aimed at your heart would be even more terrifying... especially when you're trapped in a formation and have no where to go -- that armor you wear won't stop a couched lance at the gallop.

    But yeah... this weird thought that cavalry were only fighting other cavalry is totally absurd.
    Nope, that's in fact not how heavy cavalry was ever used. When they charged from the front then only when they were secure in the knowledge that their targets would break and run away. If they stood their ground, it would have been massively dangerous to insist on the charge. You are not ramming into one guy, but an entire row of guys and that will cause your horse to come to a sudden stop, probably get you thrown off and have all the horsemen behind you crash into your horse.

    And that only worked in the middle ages when armies consisted for the most part of untrained peasant levies who'd be easily intimidated by the thunder of incoming heavy horsemen . As soon as professional infantry showed up again, heavy shock cavalry took a backseat and the heavy knights disappeared from the scene.

    The Rohirrim charge, which is 100% to blame for this misconception, is complete fantasy and would not have worked if the movies hadn't invoked cartoon physics where all the orks suddenly have all the weight and sturdiness of helium balloons.
    what? rear charges werent as common as we see in video games my dude :D If you were getting rear charged it meant either ambush or you've already lost the battle. Heavy cav with lances were intended to frontline charge
  • Ethorin#1178Ethorin#1178 Registered Users Posts: 778
    gorgos96 said:

    Itharus said:

    Ninaran said:

    Itharus said:

    If cavalry gets OP, races like Skaven that don't have cavalry wouldn't stand a chance against it. It would be cool if units like spearmen and halberdiers are immune to charge knockback effect

    Skaven have many direct and devastating counters to cavalry, don't worry. Just use all the tools in your tool box.
    >Just use every tool in your tool box
    >meanwhile, cavalry enjoyers: "I want to frontal charge this highly offensive shock infantry without repercussions, also braced halberds need nerfs!"

    It's like poetry.
    I never said braced halberds need nerfs. I said braced polearm units should be the ones who properly resist a charge like this, where as others with hand weapons shouldn't do so hot. If I indicated halberds need a nerf, then it was probably a typo. I did suggest nerfing Armor Piercing damage though - which would indirectly nerf Halberds I suppose.

    Also... wtf are people thinking Heavy Knights never charged into infantry for? That's precisely what they were for... that and against other cavalry. Even basic units of spearmen were not knight-proof. Again. See lances. Remember that a lance is like a couched frigging pike. It's a first strike weapon The lances would break the first couple of ranks and allow the knights to plough in and wreak havoc. These knights were typically followed by a charge of infantry behind them if it was a frontal charge. This is why pikes and spikey hooked polearms became a thing (well, the pikes re-became a thing I suppose, lol).

    I mean did they say "oh look, lets charge into those spearmen!" -- lol no, but it did happen. And if the spearmen in question were conscripts it happened rather more frequently than you'd think. Honestly... being charged by heavy cavalry should come with a morale shock IMO. Seeing a large animal running at you is scary. A large armored animal running at you carrying an armored man wielding a lance aimed at your heart would be even more terrifying... especially when you're trapped in a formation and have no where to go -- that armor you wear won't stop a couched lance at the gallop.

    But yeah... this weird thought that cavalry were only fighting other cavalry is totally absurd.
    Nope, that's in fact not how heavy cavalry was ever used. When they charged from the front then only when they were secure in the knowledge that their targets would break and run away. If they stood their ground, it would have been massively dangerous to insist on the charge. You are not ramming into one guy, but an entire row of guys and that will cause your horse to come to a sudden stop, probably get you thrown off and have all the horsemen behind you crash into your horse.

    And that only worked in the middle ages when armies consisted for the most part of untrained peasant levies who'd be easily intimidated by the thunder of incoming heavy horsemen . As soon as professional infantry showed up again, heavy shock cavalry took a backseat and the heavy knights disappeared from the scene.

    The Rohirrim charge, which is 100% to blame for this misconception, is complete fantasy and would not have worked if the movies hadn't invoked cartoon physics where all the orks suddenly have all the weight and sturdiness of helium balloons.
    what? rear charges werent as common as we see in video games my dude :D If you were getting rear charged it meant either ambush or you've already lost the battle. Heavy cav with lances were intended to frontline charge
    Weirdly, they still happened a lot...

    I suppose when you've got a force designed to do it you go to great lengths to make it happen eh?
  • Gloire_bbGloire_bb Registered Users Posts: 17


    Nope, that's in fact not how heavy cavalry was ever used. When they charged from the front then only when they were secure in the knowledge that their targets would break and run away. If they stood their ground, it would have been massively dangerous to insist on the charge. You are not ramming into one guy, but an entire row of guys and that will cause your horse to come to a sudden stop, probably get you thrown off and have all the horsemen behind you crash into your horse.

    And that only worked in the middle ages when armies consisted for the most part of untrained peasant levies who'd be easily intimidated by the thunder of incoming heavy horsemen . As soon as professional infantry showed up again, heavy shock cavalry took a backseat and the heavy knights disappeared from the scene.

    Oh, another historical rant. everyone uninterested can feel free to skip it - I'll add game-relevant conclusions below.
    ------------------
    1. Majority of charges throughout history were against pointy sticks in some form. For a stupid reason of pointy sticks being the single most widely spread weapon throughout history. Worth noting, that shooty pointy stick(rifle with bayonet) stopped being the main infantry weapon well after the end of cavalry as whole.
    2. Purpose of heavy cavalry was precisely to break targets. There were many ways of doing it, European galloping charge is only one of them. But still, it was done throughout whole medieval era, up till and into modernity. Even on unarmored horses(mostly on unarmored horses, in fact). The whole direction of progress of western saddles was aimed precisely at remaining on horse when horse reacts(or someone tries to forcefully pull you off horse). Never worked 100%, but this is the rule of the game.
    Furthermore, unlike often depicted - typical formation of European charge(knight charge) was just two rows thick(lighter cavalry behind could be behind, but that's another thing), and normally offset - not a nape-to-nape formation. Furthermore, it's only weeell after the end of knightly era when European cav truly learned how to gallop charge boot-to-boot (it's an 18th-century tactic).
    3. Sane horse won't enter steady infantry ranks - it's sane, after all - and will stop right before the steady infantry wall (insane/mad from pain horses may act different, much like humans). But, if we're talking about game-era, lance-armed rider - this moment will be after the lance strike - and only pikes could prevent this; it's more complicated with pre-14th century cavalry spear - but charges still were generally effective enough. In fact, they remained effective and routine even after both horse armor and spears went away(the latter were simply replaced with pistols) completely. Why they were replaced with pistols? Well, both were single-use weapons anyways.
    4. The only way to prevent such usage was to outrange cavalry weapons with infantry weapon reach. It didn't happen until 15th century, and even then wasn't reliable - you don't become swiss pikemen just by getting longer sticks. It should be noted, that pikes are anything but "simple and obvious" solution - if you don't believe me, take 6m long wooden stick into your hands, and you'll immediately understand what's wrong.

    ------------------
    When we translate it into the game, conclusions are as follows:
    1. Shock cav shouldn't ram into steady infantry formations the way melee/monstrous infantry does it(sending it flying) - that's what lances (or pistols) are for. Melee cav can do it - but not from gallop(against coherent infantry formation), and with simple, infantry-like charge bonus. Strictly speaking, shock cav shall be able to do the same - but only with secondary weapons (swords, maces).
    Of course, crashing into loose formations and trampling them is still fine(if the horse will be able to find/push its way through). If horsemen get stuck in the process - well, bad luck.
    2. Reach matters - only pikes shall truly be able to prevent lance charge. Short spears, halberds and other "intermediate" weapons can't and shouldn't outreach knightly charge. What they should, however, allow the infantry to do - is to counterattack/defend against knights after absorbing the charge(and they should be able to absorb this charge in reasonable shape). Yes, that's far riskier and more gameplay-intensive than just leave them be - sorry.
    (ironically, Bretonnian knights probably shouldn't be able to use such longer lances - their backwardness plays against them. Should or shouldn't it be invoked is outside of the context of this post).
    5. True heavy(with barded horses) cav should get tired(and thus unable to gallop) very fast - in a matter of a couple of hundred meters. Strictly speaking, in this thing horse already should be superior to the competition - monster cav in game is typically based off animals which can't maintain top speeds for long even w/o any loads. Basically - they probably shouldn't be "shock" cavalries at all(in a sense that implies gallop lance charge).
    6. Cycle charging shouldn't be the role of the armored cav - it's against its whole point. Medium cavalry, melee/monstrous cavalry, melee infantry, SEMs - sure.
    7. Melee weapon-equipped cavalry should be able to decently trade against melee infantry(i.e. weapon without range advantage against cav). Melee cavalry with range advantage (short spears, halberds) should actually handily outtrade such infantry. Of course, can with range disadvantage should suffer very heavily.

    Complex? Yes. Far less friendly to infantry? Yes as well. But if we want the state of affairs to remind medieval/early modern combat - it's the way to go.
    And all WH nations are equipped to deal with this change - even races such as Skaven.
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,481
    edited September 2021
    Right... ok... I am specifically talking about heavily armored European knights.

    Not light cavalry.

    Not medium cavalry.

    Not unbarded cavalry.

    Heavily armored medieval knights.

    And what made knights go away was pike-and-shot tactics and better field artillery and the mass adoption of better muskets. Speed and a good breastplate became better than heavy armor at that time.

    *******

    We're hella off topic tho. This is supposed to be about gameplay changes, not ideologies on how it should play... but comments on how it does play and how it affects balance. So apologies for the digression.
  • gorgos96#5405gorgos96#5405 Member Registered Users Posts: 381
    Ethorin said:

    gorgos96 said:

    Itharus said:

    Ninaran said:

    Itharus said:

    If cavalry gets OP, races like Skaven that don't have cavalry wouldn't stand a chance against it. It would be cool if units like spearmen and halberdiers are immune to charge knockback effect

    Skaven have many direct and devastating counters to cavalry, don't worry. Just use all the tools in your tool box.
    >Just use every tool in your tool box
    >meanwhile, cavalry enjoyers: "I want to frontal charge this highly offensive shock infantry without repercussions, also braced halberds need nerfs!"

    It's like poetry.
    I never said braced halberds need nerfs. I said braced polearm units should be the ones who properly resist a charge like this, where as others with hand weapons shouldn't do so hot. If I indicated halberds need a nerf, then it was probably a typo. I did suggest nerfing Armor Piercing damage though - which would indirectly nerf Halberds I suppose.

    Also... wtf are people thinking Heavy Knights never charged into infantry for? That's precisely what they were for... that and against other cavalry. Even basic units of spearmen were not knight-proof. Again. See lances. Remember that a lance is like a couched frigging pike. It's a first strike weapon The lances would break the first couple of ranks and allow the knights to plough in and wreak havoc. These knights were typically followed by a charge of infantry behind them if it was a frontal charge. This is why pikes and spikey hooked polearms became a thing (well, the pikes re-became a thing I suppose, lol).

    I mean did they say "oh look, lets charge into those spearmen!" -- lol no, but it did happen. And if the spearmen in question were conscripts it happened rather more frequently than you'd think. Honestly... being charged by heavy cavalry should come with a morale shock IMO. Seeing a large animal running at you is scary. A large armored animal running at you carrying an armored man wielding a lance aimed at your heart would be even more terrifying... especially when you're trapped in a formation and have no where to go -- that armor you wear won't stop a couched lance at the gallop.

    But yeah... this weird thought that cavalry were only fighting other cavalry is totally absurd.
    Nope, that's in fact not how heavy cavalry was ever used. When they charged from the front then only when they were secure in the knowledge that their targets would break and run away. If they stood their ground, it would have been massively dangerous to insist on the charge. You are not ramming into one guy, but an entire row of guys and that will cause your horse to come to a sudden stop, probably get you thrown off and have all the horsemen behind you crash into your horse.

    And that only worked in the middle ages when armies consisted for the most part of untrained peasant levies who'd be easily intimidated by the thunder of incoming heavy horsemen . As soon as professional infantry showed up again, heavy shock cavalry took a backseat and the heavy knights disappeared from the scene.

    The Rohirrim charge, which is 100% to blame for this misconception, is complete fantasy and would not have worked if the movies hadn't invoked cartoon physics where all the orks suddenly have all the weight and sturdiness of helium balloons.
    what? rear charges werent as common as we see in video games my dude :D If you were getting rear charged it meant either ambush or you've already lost the battle. Heavy cav with lances were intended to frontline charge
    Weirdly, they still happened a lot...

    I suppose when you've got a force designed to do it you go to great lengths to make it happen eh?
    A standard battle tactic for heavy cav was to charge the flank infantry and if they managed to break the flank they would go around and rear charge. At that point the battle would be already lost. There were ofc many exceptions to this and some even to the extreme (agincourt) but still the use of heavy cav was to frontline charge. They literally did the rohirrim charge to ottomans in the siege of Vienna.
  • Rat-ee-jiK#7094Rat-ee-jiK#7094 Registered Users Posts: 194
    edited September 2021

    O god, I read all this nonsense and I see CA giving in and enabling brainless Rohirrim charges for all.

    Well, the game's already crap on battlefield balance thanks to OP

    Ichon said:

    Cavalry should probably have some type of ward save going along with the charge bonus that ticks down- maybe starts at 50% and decreases as charge bonus fades, would lower casualties when cycle charging uty high mass infantry or braced infantry would take relatively few casualties and could still tie up the cavalry before they could withdraw so shock cavalry would really have to cycle charge successfully a few times to get their value which puts them more often in higher area for units but they could also finish off alrady damaged or unbraced units with few casualties.

    Theoretically cavalry charge into rear/flank of units should do more damage and it sort of does depending on a lot of factors but even charging the rear of an infantry unit, enough models turn quickly enough they end up doing only a little bit less damage than the cavalry did on the charge so a timed ward save to represent the 'shock' of the charge seems appropriate.

    I would rather have that implemented than extra splash damage to cavalry which can quickly get out of hand as seen in 3K.

    Not a fan of this. So if a cavalry unit is attacked by something else mid-charge, that damage is mitigated too no matter what it is? Would cause more problems than it solves.

    Also, the first thing CA would have to solve is to make sure that loose formation units aren't better prepared to take charges and have an easier time entangling charging units than tight formation units. A unit of Skavenslaves or Zombies can deal with charging cavalry better than Stormvermin or Grave Guard which is plain dumb and an issue CA let fester for years now.
    You aren't discussing this in a very reasonable way. CA suggested the heavy cavalry changes and I agree with them that heavy cavalry needs improvement.

    I'm not arguing that spearmen and halberds should be less effective against cavalry. Quite the opposite, I agree that bracing on these units should function better. Perhaps the bracing effect could also apply an additional anti-large bonus. However, higher tier anti cav infantry are already pretty effective against cavalry in general. It should still be possible for these units to lose to heavy cavalry when they are caught off-guard. As stated before, heavy cavalry costs and upkeep cold be increased to compensate for stronger cavalry charges. Unit caps for heavy cavalry and monstrous cavalry could also be considered to prevent excessive spamming. In my experience the real issue all cavalry suffer from is getting caught inside units when they charge. To fix this CA could increase the mass of cavalry. In a mod I made years ago I increased cavalry mass by 50%, which made cavalry charges more powerful. I think it would have the added effect of making heavy cavalry able to avoid getting stuck in engagements so often. This in turn, would mean that they lose less health when they break off and cycle charging tactics would work better.
  • bli-nk#6314bli-nk#6314 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,980
    edited September 2021
    If we are talking a historical game then lance cavalry should probably be able to carry out frontal charges vs even pikes but would take high losses via charge reflect unless they did somehow have longer weapons or the infantry already had wavering morale when charged and broke immediately.

    For Warhammer there are no pikes and not many lances in the cavalry units and if cavalry can simply obliterate infantry who already die to everything else in the game with a single frontal charge, no charge cycling required, why bother with infantry?

    Shock cavalry in Warhammer should be about eliminating artillery, routing units, weapons teams, and monsters who can't push thru cavalry like they can infantry with their high mass.

    Melee cavalry should be able to hold for longer than they do against infantry but I don't see a way around that with how TW mechanics work unless they get crazy high stats because as it is now simply more infantry can attack each cavalry model which is usually outnumbered 4x1 or more at the front line.

    Currently melee cavalry have few roles other than other than blunting shock cavalry charge or chasing routers as they get stuck on artillery and weapons teams and might eventually win a 1 v 1 but without the extra damage from shock charge they would usually be forced to retreat before routing their target from nearby enemy units.

    Ideally melee cavalry would be a bit closer to 3K cavalry where they specialized in protecting the flanks vs fast moving enemy trying to get to the ranged/artillery and able to plug a gap in the line where a vortex spell just hit or a unit routed. If they tried that now they would rout in under 10 seconds given current stats.

    IF we want to talk historical... shock cavalry routinely made dozens or more charges against disciplined infantry before the infantry broke formation either due to collapse of morale or finally believing the cavalry retreat was real and following the innate instinct to finish off something that has posed a danger for hours with constant charges being repulsed.

    We have sources from many battles in the medieval era recording how many horses died under such and such person due to repeated charges or how many times the line held, later closer to the modern era in the 16th and 17th centuries we have actual letters from participants in battles saying it took nearly 20 charges to break the enemy and battles sometimes lasted from morning until nightfall.

    Secondly, what is often described as a 'frontal' charge is not actually a frontal charge vs a readied enemy but more often cavalry attacking in a wedge aimed at a break in the enemy front line or formation.

    The two line deep cavalry charge did occur sometimes, we do have accounts of that but usually such charges were vs other cavalry or at vulnerable targets such as archers without earthworks or pikes to protect them.

    As mentioned it was common for a single unit of cavalry to consist of actually several different styles of cavalry, 3K finally introduced hybrid infantry units but hybrid cavalry units were probably even more common in history.

    The front ranks of a mixed cavalry force would have the higher status/more armoured/most experienced men while following them would be the younger sons or warriors in training and taking up the rear would be servants or lesser warriors often armed as skirmishers but capable of attacking with melee weapons against a broken enemy.

    We can suspect that many steppe peoples did this as some accounts of the Huns and later Mongols indicate mixed formations but the first verified sources explicitly stating this is how cavalry fought are from the Tang dynasty fighting the Göktürks and later by the Jin and Jurchen who used similar formations- heavily armoured shock cavalry both horse and rider armoured at the front, more lightly armoured archer/light lancers in the rear.

    The heavy armoured cavalry would smash into enemy formations making a hole which the lighter armoured cavalry poured into and used lance and arrows at close range to then shatter that formation and spread chaos in the enemy army. Mongols and Jurchen supposedly had standing orders that the medium cavalry lancer/archers would kill any of the heavily armoured cavalry at the front of the formation who tried to retreat once the charge had begun.

    This type of cavalry was deemed impossible to resist in flat terrain with only infantry. Earthworks and walled forts or commonly on the steppes, wagon lagers were considered necessary to have a hope of resisting such a charge.

    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society.” Mark Twain
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited September 2021
    There was no cavalry that was meant to smash into braced infantry from the front.

    Macedon's Companion cavalry were among the first to use long lances on the charge, they flanked or attacked form the rear, not the front. Knights never attacked from the front if they thought the target would stand its ground. Trained warhorses were expensive.

    The Romans never used pikes or spears with their legionaries after the Samnite Wars and yet they didn't have a crippling weakness to cavarly charges. At Carrhae they weren't repeatedly charged from the front, they were peppered with missiles for days until their ranks were thinned out and ramshackle enough to allow for a charge with the heavy cataphracts. If the Parthians had tried to go for moronic Rohirrim charge right away, Crassus would have gotten the military triumph he so badly sought after.

    Infantry was always the king of the battlefield until WW freaking One. This game turning infantry into nothing but mobile obstacles is a disgrace and it should not be compounded by turning cavalry into freakin' tanks that can just roll them over.
  • Rat-ee-jiK#7094Rat-ee-jiK#7094 Registered Users Posts: 194

    There was no cavalry that was meant to smash into braced infantry from the front.

    Macedon's Companion cavalry were among the first to use long lances on the charge, they flanked or attacked form the rear, not the front. Knights never attacked from the front if they thought the target would stand its ground. Trained warhorses were expensive.

    The Romans never used pikes or spears with their legionaries after the Samnite Wars and yet they didn't have a crippling weakness to cavarly charges. At Carrhae they weren't repeatedly charged from the front, they were peppered with missiles for days until their ranks were thinned out and ramshackle enough to allow for a charge with the heavy cataphracts. If the Parthians had tried to go for moronic Rohirrim charge right away, Crassus would have gotten the military triumph he so badly sought after.

    Infantry was always the king of the battlefield until WW freaking One. This game turning infantry into nothing but mobile obstacles is a disgrace and it should not be compounded by turning cavalry into freakin' tanks that can just roll them over.

    1. Firstly the parthians used horse archers to beat crassus, not heavy armoured cavalry such as cataphracts. Skirmish tactics were a necessity, not an option.
    2. Infantry was NOT the king of the battlefield until WW1. This varies historically. In medieval Europe knights frequently dominated battlefields and were the most decisive part of an engagement, whether or not they were charging a prepared infantry position.
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