Rework prayers similar to rune magic

BjornNorlinder#2423

Just add one type of prayer and rework the spammable praying system to something similar to rune magic. That would make it less spammable and also nerf op and broken volkmar. The additional prayer and rework of certain prayers could counterbalance any possible nerf at least somewhat.

Don't u love it when volkmar spams all his prayers all at once? I don't think sigmar or whoever it is would be so keen to grant him all his prayers all the time

Bastilean#7242

I am of the opinion Runes Lore needs a lot of help.

Until CA makes Rune Lore more flexible and less gated especially for Lords and expecially for Lords mounted on the anvil of runes this discussion isn't worth having yet.

But in theory I total agree with the principal of the idea, and I would love to see 3 more Litanies of Sigmar.

yst#1879

Nah wrong approach.

Should rework useless runes like prayers

ShevaTsar#8662

That's actually a pretty good idea, all in all prayers behave like Runes without the drawback. It needs some sort of resource to be used, whether is it caps or your suggestion.
Point is current implementation is a bit too much on the strong side of things.

Lotus_Moon#2452

yst said:

Nah wrong approach.

Should rework useless runes like prayers

How are runes usless?

i mean i think 3 of them need a buff, but the MA AOE, the slow, and wrath and ruin are all quite useful, the other 3 just suck that is all.

Bastilean#7242

The MA AOE cost the same as a Fight or Die but has a longer cool down and a shared cool down and the guy you are buying it for has terrible stats.

Need shorter cool downs. Need shorter shared cool downs. Otherwise, they end up being over priced garbage.

Kebab_man

Bastilean said:

I am of the opinion Runes Lore needs a lot of help.

Until CA makes Rune Lore more flexible and less gated especially for Lords and expecially for Lords mounted on the anvil of runes this discussion isn't worth having yet.

But in theory I total agree with the principal of the idea, and I would love to see 3 more Litanies of Sigmar.

rune lore does need a buff, but the buff it needs is to be able to have 3 runes in your rotation of rune cooldown waiting, that's a pretty simple fix, just one number needs changed for that, if prayers worked the same way it would also want that, though with the option of magic they might only need 2 to be viable, but that's hard to say without testing and on how they change the prayers in the process

Bastilean#7242

MA AOE AKA Rune of Speed it has a name (120 cool down) +speed (also has to share cool downs)

Smash'em Faster and Fight or Die (90 cool down) +leadership

Hammer of Sigmar (60 second cool down) +50% longer duration (also costs half as much)

BjornNorlinder#2423

ShevaTsar said:

That's actually a pretty good idea, all in all prayers behave like Runes without the drawback. It needs some sort of resource to be used, whether is it caps or your suggestion.
Point is current implementation is a bit too much on the strong side of things.

Making it a faction wide resource based is one idea I had in mind Instead of a boring timer like the dawi. The more desperate and holding of the line, the more points u get to recharge ur prayers

Lotus_Moon#2452

I actually think the way runes should of been done is that dwarfs get 20 WOM, they can never be regenerated 30. Since runes are stored magic they just use that pool, all runes can use same say 2 and OC version uses 3, + reasonably long cooldown maybe like now BUT not shared cooldown.

The 20 Base is just base, if you have a runelord its +10 and each runesmith adds +5.

That way dwarfs can spam runes if they want to but can get limited in someway.

Basically like spells but the WOM never regenerate.

eumaies#1128

Lotus_Moon said:

yst said:

Nah wrong approach.

Should rework useless runes like prayers

How are runes usless?

i mean i think 3 of them need a buff, but the MA AOE, the slow, and wrath and ruin are all quite useful, the other 3 just suck that is all.

I think the only rune that sucks (and only because it's dwarfs) is the armour rune. I don't think there are clear winners from across the other 5 it really just depends on matchup and build.

eumaies#1128

Lotus_Moon said:

I actually think the way runes should of been done is that dwarfs get 20 WOM, they can never be regenerated 30. Since runes are stored magic they just use that pool, all runes can use same say 2 and OC version uses 3, + reasonably long cooldown maybe like now BUT not shared cooldown.

The 20 Base is just base, if you have a runelord its +10 and each runesmith adds +5.

That way dwarfs can spam runes if they want to but can get limited in someway.

Basically like spells but the WOM never regenerate.

the current system works well and is very dwarven and characterful. It's low payoff at first but if you don't kill off the runelord they will gradually punish you more and more. it's a very loreful contrast to magic which often pays off with early impacts to swing a battle.

Lotus_Moon#2452

eumaies said:

Lotus_Moon said:

yst said:

Nah wrong approach.

Should rework useless runes like prayers

How are runes usless?

i mean i think 3 of them need a buff, but the MA AOE, the slow, and wrath and ruin are all quite useful, the other 3 just suck that is all.

I think the only rune that sucks (and only because it's dwarfs) is the armour rune. I don't think there are clear winners from across the other 5 it really just depends on matchup and build.

i do feel the other 2 could also use help, i think the armour sunder one could be AOE on overcast (same duration as normal one though), The armour one could come with some MD perhaps, since even on slayers its not worth it as people took AP anyway, +12MD in addition to the armour could be nice alternatively +24MD but lower duration, that is in addtion to armour, for me the dmg reduction one is way to situational to be considered good, id like it if it did dmg reduction and gave maybe +8 LD. I find the other 3 quite good, only 1 issue for me is that slowness is very good Overcast but normal cast hardly worth it unless combined with other slows, but i guess that is ok.

eumaies#1128

Lotus_Moon said:

eumaies said:

Lotus_Moon said:

yst said:

Nah wrong approach.

Should rework useless runes like prayers

How are runes usless?

i mean i think 3 of them need a buff, but the MA AOE, the slow, and wrath and ruin are all quite useful, the other 3 just suck that is all.

I think the only rune that sucks (and only because it's dwarfs) is the armour rune. I don't think there are clear winners from across the other 5 it really just depends on matchup and build.

i do feel the other 2 could also use help, i think the armour sunder one could be AOE on overcast (same duration as normal one though), The armour one could come with some MD perhaps, since even on slayers its not worth it as people took AP anyway, +12MD in addition to the armour could be nice alternatively +24MD but lower duration, that is in addtion to armour, for me the dmg reduction one is way to situational to be considered good, id like it if it did dmg reduction and gave maybe +8 LD. I find the other 3 quite good, only 1 issue for me is that slowness is very good Overcast but normal cast hardly worth it unless combined with other slows, but i guess that is ok.

Would be interesting to do some tests on the different runes to better quantify their potential impact.

On the armour cast, I think the problem is both that it's for dwarfs and that it's a very long duration on a pretty minor effect (basic cast). Dwarfs will face non-AP attacks but if they do it will not reliably be in a long protracted fight, and if you're trying to save a completely naked unit like slayers it would be insane to want them to stay in combat/under fire taking non-AP damage for an extended period just because they got +30 armour.

if there has to be an armour rune I would suggest the overcast be for the duration doubling while the basic cast be shorter but give +60 armour instead. But I also like your idea of it adding MD, which is more practical for dwarfs.

re: the armour sunder rune, it seems like one of the best to me. It's always useful for something, is effectively long range if you cast it on a ranged unit, and is sort of like a type of ulthar's bonus but without having to take ulthars. Because the armour sundering is the big thing I wouldn't recommend it to be AOE on overcast, since typically armour sundering is used to focus a single unit down.

Lotus_Moon#2452

eumaies said:

Lotus_Moon said:

eumaies said:

Lotus_Moon said:

yst said:

Nah wrong approach.

Should rework useless runes like prayers

How are runes usless?

i mean i think 3 of them need a buff, but the MA AOE, the slow, and wrath and ruin are all quite useful, the other 3 just suck that is all.

I think the only rune that sucks (and only because it's dwarfs) is the armour rune. I don't think there are clear winners from across the other 5 it really just depends on matchup and build.

i do feel the other 2 could also use help, i think the armour sunder one could be AOE on overcast (same duration as normal one though), The armour one could come with some MD perhaps, since even on slayers its not worth it as people took AP anyway, +12MD in addition to the armour could be nice alternatively +24MD but lower duration, that is in addtion to armour, for me the dmg reduction one is way to situational to be considered good, id like it if it did dmg reduction and gave maybe +8 LD. I find the other 3 quite good, only 1 issue for me is that slowness is very good Overcast but normal cast hardly worth it unless combined with other slows, but i guess that is ok.

Would be interesting to do some tests on the different runes to better quantify their potential impact.

On the armour cast, I think the problem is both that it's for dwarfs and that it's a very long duration on a pretty minor effect (basic cast). Dwarfs will face non-AP attacks but if they do it will not reliably be in a long protracted fight, and if you're trying to save a completely naked unit like slayers it would be insane to want them to stay in combat/under fire taking non-AP damage for an extended period just because they got +30 armour.

if there has to be an armour rune I would suggest the overcast be for the duration doubling while the basic cast be shorter but give +60 armour instead. But I also like your idea of it adding MD, which is more practical for dwarfs.

re: the armour sunder rune, it seems like one of the best to me. It's always useful for something, is effectively long range if you cast it on a ranged unit, and is sort of like a type of ulthar's bonus but without having to take ulthars. Because the armour sundering is the big thing I wouldn't recommend it to be AOE on overcast, since typically armour sundering is used to focus a single unit down.

The idea on AOE is that it would find better use to cast in groups of melee units, if you could affect to 2 to 3 combats, for ranged yeah it does not matter almost at all.

eumaies#1128

Lotus_Moon said:

eumaies said:

Lotus_Moon said:

eumaies said:

Lotus_Moon said:

yst said:

Nah wrong approach.

Should rework useless runes like prayers

How are runes usless?

i mean i think 3 of them need a buff, but the MA AOE, the slow, and wrath and ruin are all quite useful, the other 3 just suck that is all.

I think the only rune that sucks (and only because it's dwarfs) is the armour rune. I don't think there are clear winners from across the other 5 it really just depends on matchup and build.

i do feel the other 2 could also use help, i think the armour sunder one could be AOE on overcast (same duration as normal one though), The armour one could come with some MD perhaps, since even on slayers its not worth it as people took AP anyway, +12MD in addition to the armour could be nice alternatively +24MD but lower duration, that is in addtion to armour, for me the dmg reduction one is way to situational to be considered good, id like it if it did dmg reduction and gave maybe +8 LD. I find the other 3 quite good, only 1 issue for me is that slowness is very good Overcast but normal cast hardly worth it unless combined with other slows, but i guess that is ok.

Would be interesting to do some tests on the different runes to better quantify their potential impact.

On the armour cast, I think the problem is both that it's for dwarfs and that it's a very long duration on a pretty minor effect (basic cast). Dwarfs will face non-AP attacks but if they do it will not reliably be in a long protracted fight, and if you're trying to save a completely naked unit like slayers it would be insane to want them to stay in combat/under fire taking non-AP damage for an extended period just because they got +30 armour.

if there has to be an armour rune I would suggest the overcast be for the duration doubling while the basic cast be shorter but give +60 armour instead. But I also like your idea of it adding MD, which is more practical for dwarfs.

re: the armour sunder rune, it seems like one of the best to me. It's always useful for something, is effectively long range if you cast it on a ranged unit, and is sort of like a type of ulthar's bonus but without having to take ulthars. Because the armour sundering is the big thing I wouldn't recommend it to be AOE on overcast, since typically armour sundering is used to focus a single unit down.

The idea on AOE is that it would find better use to cast in groups of melee units, if you could affect to 2 to 3 combats, for ranged yeah it does not matter almost at all.

Yup, but then you need to have two fights next to each other that are non-AP, which is adding to the situational nature of it.

If instead like it currently is it lasts longer it means you pick one important targets that you want sundered and you keep it sundered for longer, which feels stronger.