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Cavalry charging into full HP infantry should be disastrous for the cavalry

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  • griffithx#1314griffithx#1314 Registered Users Posts: 1,518
    edited October 2021
  • Ninaran#8122Ninaran#8122 Registered Users Posts: 554

    Cycle charging in TW is based on unrealistic movement physics that allow cavalry to move like a school of fish where every horseman can instantly turn his horse on a dime and accelerate to full speed in the opposite direction in a second. It's not based on military tactics used in RL since RL horses are subject to inertia.

    infantry stopping cav in their path is based on unrealistic system in total war...come on dont be bias and apply the logic fairly, i agreed with REM that his point is correct but totally ignores the other aspect of "logic" also.

    Dont be a guy that only uses the argument that suits his point of view but ignores the rest of its application...

    I agree with you that what is happening is unrealistic BUT if you want to make it realistic than cav would just charge thru the unit while trampling the infantry on its way and come out on the back of it UNLESS the infantry was maybe 20+ models deep
    So, you're saying that cavalry should just be able to "charge thru" 20 rows of armoured, braced infantry and just trample them?
    Really? Is that how you imagine how cavalry worked?

    No wonder reaching a consensus is impossible on here.
  • ThisIsREMThisIsREM Registered Users Posts: 283
    Ninaran said:

    Cycle charging in TW is based on unrealistic movement physics that allow cavalry to move like a school of fish where every horseman can instantly turn his horse on a dime and accelerate to full speed in the opposite direction in a second. It's not based on military tactics used in RL since RL horses are subject to inertia.

    infantry stopping cav in their path is based on unrealistic system in total war...come on dont be bias and apply the logic fairly, i agreed with REM that his point is correct but totally ignores the other aspect of "logic" also.

    Dont be a guy that only uses the argument that suits his point of view but ignores the rest of its application...

    I agree with you that what is happening is unrealistic BUT if you want to make it realistic than cav would just charge thru the unit while trampling the infantry on its way and come out on the back of it UNLESS the infantry was maybe 20+ models deep
    So, you're saying that cavalry should just be able to "charge thru" 20 rows of armoured, braced infantry and just trample them?
    Really? Is that how you imagine how cavalry worked?

    No wonder reaching a consensus is impossible on here.
    Where did 20 rows of armoured braced and armoured infantry comes from exactly?

    100 armour mounted knights should be able to charge through spaghetti line of chaff yes, but the downside is that they should struggle to retreat so choosing the charges becomes the skill rather than microing non-stop cycle charges.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited October 2021

    Cycle charging in TW is based on unrealistic movement physics that allow cavalry to move like a school of fish where every horseman can instantly turn his horse on a dime and accelerate to full speed in the opposite direction in a second. It's not based on military tactics used in RL since RL horses are subject to inertia.

    infantry stopping cav in their path is based on unrealistic system in total war...come on dont be bias and apply the logic fairly, i agreed with REM that his point is correct but totally ignores the other aspect of "logic" also.

    Dont be a guy that only uses the argument that suits his point of view but ignores the rest of its application...

    I agree with you that what is happening is unrealistic BUT if you want to make it realistic than cav would just charge thru the unit while trampling the infantry on its way and come out on the back of it UNLESS the infantry was maybe 20+ models deep
    Nah, that's how it works in the movies, but not in RL. In RL horses are not unthinking and unfeeling robots with extendable force fields and footmen aren't soft, weightless helium balloons, so running straight into a solid block of troopers will just cause the cavalry to pile up and stumble over each other.

    That's why in RL, cavalry never charged into intact infantry blocks that stood their ground.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,358
    Ninaran said:

    Cycle charging in TW is based on unrealistic movement physics that allow cavalry to move like a school of fish where every horseman can instantly turn his horse on a dime and accelerate to full speed in the opposite direction in a second. It's not based on military tactics used in RL since RL horses are subject to inertia.

    infantry stopping cav in their path is based on unrealistic system in total war...come on dont be bias and apply the logic fairly, i agreed with REM that his point is correct but totally ignores the other aspect of "logic" also.

    Dont be a guy that only uses the argument that suits his point of view but ignores the rest of its application...

    I agree with you that what is happening is unrealistic BUT if you want to make it realistic than cav would just charge thru the unit while trampling the infantry on its way and come out on the back of it UNLESS the infantry was maybe 20+ models deep
    So, you're saying that cavalry should just be able to "charge thru" 20 rows of armoured, braced infantry and just trample them?
    Really? Is that how you imagine how cavalry worked?

    No wonder reaching a consensus is impossible on here.
    I dont think this shold happen in the game, but if you apply real life logic like people are for turing back than yes it should.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,358

    Cycle charging in TW is based on unrealistic movement physics that allow cavalry to move like a school of fish where every horseman can instantly turn his horse on a dime and accelerate to full speed in the opposite direction in a second. It's not based on military tactics used in RL since RL horses are subject to inertia.

    infantry stopping cav in their path is based on unrealistic system in total war...come on dont be bias and apply the logic fairly, i agreed with REM that his point is correct but totally ignores the other aspect of "logic" also.

    Dont be a guy that only uses the argument that suits his point of view but ignores the rest of its application...

    I agree with you that what is happening is unrealistic BUT if you want to make it realistic than cav would just charge thru the unit while trampling the infantry on its way and come out on the back of it UNLESS the infantry was maybe 20+ models deep
    Nah, that's how it works in the movies, but not in RL. In RL horses are not unthinking and unfeeling robots with extendable force fields and footmen aren't soft, weightless helium balloons, so running straight into a solid block of troopers will just cause the cavalry to pile up and stumble over each other.

    That's why in RL, cavalry never charged into intact infantry blocks that stood their ground.
    Actually if you do some reachers you will open your eyes how it worked in real life.

    6 deep infantry would not stop a cav charge, they would just thru them with ease and emerge on the other side
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Either way you can't apply realism arguments only when it suits the agenda.

    Realistically ungrim should have 1300 less mass (to 200) and knock_reaction_ignore_chance down to 10% from 80% or so.

    I wouldn't make a balanced and fun game though.... Same goes for all units, game design trumphs "realistic fantasy".

    That said, game design should stay true to logical outcomes of unit interactions, that makes the game play similar to what you would intuitively expect. Heavy shock cavalry being able to disengage and make use of their charge bonus is imo perfectly true to game design without becoming unintuitive. I find it much more unintuitive that foot soldiers with short weapons are guaranteed to inflict damage vs long lances charging them sending them flying.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • ThibixMagnus#8300ThibixMagnus#8300 Registered Users Posts: 860
    edited October 2021

    Either way you can't apply realism arguments only when it suits the agenda.

    Realistically ungrim should have 1300 less mass (to 200) and knock_reaction_ignore_chance down to 10% from 80% or so.

    I wouldn't make a balanced and fun game though.... Same goes for all units, game design trumphs "realistic fantasy".

    That said, game design should stay true to logical outcomes of unit interactions, that makes the game play similar to what you would intuitively expect. Heavy shock cavalry being able to disengage and make use of their charge bonus is imo perfectly true to game design without becoming unintuitive. I find it much more unintuitive that foot soldiers with short weapons are guaranteed to inflict damage vs long lances charging them sending them flying.

    though slower turn speed for the heavier shock cav, at least when in melee, would be intuitive for me, in exchange for more shock power. You showed in the beta a 1 second window as the optimal melee duration when cycle charging, that sounds horribly unintuitive for say Chaos Knights, I find it really lacks a sense of weight and gravitas, undermines the cinematic value of a heavy charge. I wound't mind some shock cavalry being worse than others at cycle charging, but better at charging. I think the "pull-out penalty", i.e. the difference in trade during the extraction, compared to the baseline trade, is an important variable to regulate cav-inf interation (along with vigour loss for charging), and a tool for a compromise - that would be impossible to find looking only at the trade during impact.
    ThisIsREM said:

    Ninaran said:

    Cycle charging in TW is based on unrealistic movement physics that allow cavalry to move like a school of fish where every horseman can instantly turn his horse on a dime and accelerate to full speed in the opposite direction in a second. It's not based on military tactics used in RL since RL horses are subject to inertia.

    infantry stopping cav in their path is based on unrealistic system in total war...come on dont be bias and apply the logic fairly, i agreed with REM that his point is correct but totally ignores the other aspect of "logic" also.

    Dont be a guy that only uses the argument that suits his point of view but ignores the rest of its application...

    I agree with you that what is happening is unrealistic BUT if you want to make it realistic than cav would just charge thru the unit while trampling the infantry on its way and come out on the back of it UNLESS the infantry was maybe 20+ models deep
    So, you're saying that cavalry should just be able to "charge thru" 20 rows of armoured, braced infantry and just trample them?
    Really? Is that how you imagine how cavalry worked?

    No wonder reaching a consensus is impossible on here.
    Where did 20 rows of armoured braced and armoured infantry comes from exactly?

    100 armour mounted knights should be able to charge through spaghetti line of chaff yes, but the downside is that they should struggle to retreat so choosing the charges becomes the skill rather than microing non-stop cycle charges.
    before you opened this thread I had a long post ready to address that :p I agree with you that some heavy cavalry should feel a bit more deliberate, more a commitment in how they are used. However
    (1) I don't think it is good to favour 1 type of skill over another. There were some lengthy discussions a while ago about what should be the rewarded skills in this game and at some point we have to find compromises, between let's say favouring judjement (what you say) and favouring execution (also a necessary thing in a RTS). I don't want to take away from those who enjoy a more micro-oriented gameplay either, not my preference but it is beautiful to watch. And managing fast-paced cycle charging over an entire map is certainly more than click-spam, as it requires splitting attention and decision-making. Also, it's not like fast-paced charging is no commitment, because you are easily counterattacked by the enemy mass so you have to evaluate the risk. Thus some cavalry could be more impactful but have a harder time pulling out, while say high elf armored cav could play a faster cycling (and of course light cav but I assume it was not part of your post). There are enough factions to allow for diversity.
    (2) again, it's a matter of degree. What you ask for is already the case in real game, in a good measure. It already takes time -thus free damage- to get out, models still get trapped, and vigor plays an important role here, you disengage slower from the follow-up charges than the first. More so, charging a messy brawl is quite different than a clean infantry formation. Models are much more easily surrounded and many more are lost during the retreat, so in practice it can be better to stay if you have some support available. Maybe that's also something that needs fixing, where a messy group of infantry is way more dangerous to cav than a disciplined line.
  • Ninaran#8122Ninaran#8122 Registered Users Posts: 554
    edited October 2021
    ThisIsREM said:

    Ninaran said:

    Cycle charging in TW is based on unrealistic movement physics that allow cavalry to move like a school of fish where every horseman can instantly turn his horse on a dime and accelerate to full speed in the opposite direction in a second. It's not based on military tactics used in RL since RL horses are subject to inertia.

    infantry stopping cav in their path is based on unrealistic system in total war...come on dont be bias and apply the logic fairly, i agreed with REM that his point is correct but totally ignores the other aspect of "logic" also.

    Dont be a guy that only uses the argument that suits his point of view but ignores the rest of its application...

    I agree with you that what is happening is unrealistic BUT if you want to make it realistic than cav would just charge thru the unit while trampling the infantry on its way and come out on the back of it UNLESS the infantry was maybe 20+ models deep
    So, you're saying that cavalry should just be able to "charge thru" 20 rows of armoured, braced infantry and just trample them?
    Really? Is that how you imagine how cavalry worked?

    No wonder reaching a consensus is impossible on here.
    Where did 20 rows of armoured braced and armoured infantry comes from exactly?

    100 armour mounted knights should be able to charge through spaghetti line of chaff yes, but the downside is that they should struggle to retreat so choosing the charges becomes the skill rather than microing non-stop cycle charges.
    Because I thought we'd have all agreed by now that bracing should be the preferred way to deal with cavalry charges, as counter-charging having more benefit is just flat-out silly.

    Yes, spaghetti lines, loose formations or fleeing units should get annihilated by cavalry.

    Cavalry charging into deep, braced infantry should annihilate each other.
    [Yes, within reason, of course Grail Knights charging into Spearmen shouldn't be the same as Marauder Horsemasters charging into Phoenix Guard]
    Post edited by Ninaran#8122 on
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