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Siege Rework Looks Great!

#324448#324448 Florida, USARegistered Users Posts: 2,146
Gotta say, I had a lot of concerns about sieges, and while I'm a little sad that wall-mounted artillery appears to not be a thing, I'm generally impressed by the new siege mechanics. They feel heavily inspired by the Fortress Gate Battles from the Hunter and the Beast's update, and I think the new layouts + internally defendable positions will go a long way towards making sieges more fulfilling.
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Let Slip the Dogs of War - A fanmade Campaign Pack concept
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  • mecanojavi99#6562mecanojavi99#6562 EspañaRegistered Users Posts: 11,492
    I have seen Crane Guns on the walls, so at least Weapon Teams can be put on walls, for artillety we will have to wait until the proper blog.
    "By the fires of Hashut, let them burn in the flames of eternal torment!"
    - Anonymous
  • 1v0#35621v0#3562 Registered Users Posts: 2,350
    I like it, now the last thing to make this perfect for me is. Special stuff(build/capture point/mines) for every race.
    Question:Presumably you’ve needed to create a huge number of new Daemon units to properly flesh them out and give them their own armies?
    Answer:IR: What you’ve just said is so true,
  • #324448#324448 Florida, USARegistered Users Posts: 2,146
    Also, just wanted to add- I'm really happy we got to see more gameplay. More videos like this please, CA, even if it's just showing off regular battles!
    Remember: there's no reason to get angry on the forums. Be polite and respectful towards other people's opinions, even if you disagree.

    Let Slip the Dogs of War - A fanmade Campaign Pack concept
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/303462/let-loose-the-dogs-of-war-a-fanmade-campaign-pack-concept
  • Neodeinos#5871Neodeinos#5871 Registered Users Posts: 16,123
    This looks exactly like what I expected so consider me aroused.
  • Bayes#3307Bayes#3307 Senior Member NorwayRegistered Users Posts: 5,021
    Im sure we could dream of it being even better, but I think almost everyone can agree that this is at the very least satisfactory. Personally it has exceeded my expectations.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    I have some doubts.

    And I don't at all like the way they did the resource system.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • neverending#5226neverending#5226 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,953
    Can't say it's very exciting IMHO, and it's about what i figured (they'd use or reuse, however you like to look at it) stuff from survival battles. The main thing I see that might be a new feature is ambushes, which unfortunately might get extremely predictable once you learn the ambush spots over time (especially since/if city layouts are shared between races).

    Everything else seems to have been doable with mods. At this point I guess the only hope is to have some tech-god-tier-modder who could work on the siege AI and work with GCCM. We're never going to battle with "the scenery" really, otherwise.

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  • Lunaticprince#9972Lunaticprince#9972 Registered Users Posts: 6,914
    Honestly like it alot!

    Just shame that walls got so little change.

    I think i got ca for focus more on the street because the walls are just no exciting element.

    But kinda would wish they do some stuff.

    But else love it and definitly gonna play the **** out of it.


  • Serkelet#1834Serkelet#1834 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,088
    So they solved several issues siege battles had. Now artillery will have a purpose instead of being useless, you can fight in the city and there are ways to flank with cavalry. I would say those were the main problems.

    Now, am I fine with building stuff mid battle? I am not sure about that, it feels gamey, but as long as it's fun, I'm fine with it. Plus, building stuff takes time, it seems, so you still have to start building in advance, you can't just pop stuff out of thin air instantaneously, so it's fine by me.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    Serkelet said:

    So they solved several issues siege battles had.

    By making it into less of a siege and more of a chokepoint battle.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • IoriYamadaIoriYamada WalesRegistered Users Posts: 792
    Crossil said:

    Serkelet said:

    So they solved several issues siege battles had.

    By making it into less of a siege and more of a chokepoint battle.
    Once they get into a city then you would take advantages of choke points as well as cutting off key areas. This seems like the correct way to do a siege once the walls have fallen.
  • ladymissfit#8688ladymissfit#8688 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,480
    it's really good refocus. yes, I would have greatly preferred more wall focus. but as far as changes go, it does solve the major issues with sieges as far as i can tell, if not exactly in the way i was hoping. good on them.
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  • IxalmarisIxalmaris Registered Users Posts: 851
    It looks awful.
    Walls are still speedbumps instead of your primary means of defence because of magic pocket ladders and artillery having to stand behind walls.
    It still comes down to who can blob the best at a chokepoint.

    Instead of reworking sieges CA simply declared that what players did as a workaround for the bad sieges is now the intended way to play and called it a day.
  • KronusXKronusX Registered Users Posts: 2,464
    Crossil said:

    Serkelet said:

    So they solved several issues siege battles had.

    By making it into less of a siege and more of a chokepoint battle.
    I mean sieges back in the days had choke points too.
  • drclaw_twdrclaw_tw Registered Users Posts: 289
    I don't get the desire to have arty on walls. Seems ineffective once the enemy closes in or even takes the position.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,593

    I have seen Crane Guns on the walls, so at least Weapon Teams can be put on walls, for artillety we will have to wait until the proper blog.

    we got the proper blog

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 1,237
    I mean, it was bound to make someone unhappy. Can't please equally two different groups that ask for different things, one must fall and the other rise.

    Today it was the time of theme park siege battles to rise.

    Can't say i'm happy. To me it feels like old sieges but with colorful smoke around it, and the fact that small settlement battles will also be chokepoint simulator upon indestructible building simulator makes me fear that CP will be more repetitive than it should've been.

    Time will tell.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    KronusX said:

    Crossil said:

    Serkelet said:

    So they solved several issues siege battles had.

    By making it into less of a siege and more of a chokepoint battle.
    I mean sieges back in the days had choke points too.
    Once a city's walls were breached, the siege was as good as over unless there was also a citadel to fall back to. The whole point of walls was to not let the enemy get inside and put his hands on your population and infrastructure.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    I dunno why people expect walls to be super important and the "win loose" condition of a siege. This isn't real world.

    They got magic, flying units, ginormous entities not to forget artillery that really should make walls redudant. (they stopped making walls everywhere once cannons became a thing if im right historically\our world).

    So to me, siege battles is fine as they are. Having a single outlying wall be the win condition sounds monumentally stupid to me.
  • HeresyHoundHeresyHound Registered Users Posts: 8,285
    I'm personally just excited that some units can now attack walls directly when previously it was only artillery and warpgrinders. Hopefully that means big monsters.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited October 2021
    Laindesh said:

    I dunno why people expect walls to be super important and the "win loose" condition of a siege. This isn't real world.

    If walls are meant to worthless, why have any in the first place? City walls are terrible for cities outside of their protective function as they box the city in and cost a crapton of money to maintain. They are usually the first thing to go if a nation experiences peace and prosperity and has an army powerful enough to not let invaders come that close in the first place.

    Also, this is a BS argument anyway, fortifications in WH lore are meant to be highly efficient and a means to break waves of invaders on.

    So making them pushovers makes for bad gameplay and a bad adaption of the source material.
  • IoriYamadaIoriYamada WalesRegistered Users Posts: 792
    Laindesh said:

    I dunno why people expect walls to be super important and the "win loose" condition of a siege. This isn't real world.

    They got magic, flying units, ginormous entities not to forget artillery that really should make walls redudant. (they stopped making walls everywhere once cannons became a thing if im right historically\our world).

    So to me, siege battles is fine as they are. Having a single outlying wall be the win condition sounds monumentally stupid to me.

    I prefer it personally. It breaks up the battle into multiple sections and allows a decent plan to be hatched during the siege with multiple strong points.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,738

    Laindesh said:

    I dunno why people expect walls to be super important and the "win loose" condition of a siege. This isn't real world.

    If walls are meant to worthless, why have any in the first place? City walls are terrible for cities outside of their protective function as they box the city in and cost a crapton of money to maintain. They are usually the first thing to go if a nation experiences peace and prosperity and has an army powerful enough to not let invaders come that close in the first place.

    Also, this is a BS argument anyway, fortifications in WH lore are meant to be highly efficient and a means to break waves of invaders on.

    So making them pushovers makes for bad gameplay and a bad adaption of the source material.
    I just think it sounds boring and i disagree its bad for gameplay though that depends entirely on who one asks.

    And if attackers is meant to break on the wall and have little to no chance of victory, thats bloody bad gameplay too.

    Not everything in the lore makes for good gameplay if translated 1:1.
  • Jo_Proulx#5293Jo_Proulx#5293 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,838
    It really does look great, we'll see!
    "Fear me mortals, for I am the Anointed, the favored Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall."

    ~ Archaon, Lord of the End Times
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,898
    Laindesh said:

    They got magic, flying units, ginormous entities not to forget artillery that really should make walls redudant.

    Then why are there walls to begin with?
    Laindesh said:

    (they stopped making walls everywhere once cannons became a thing if im right historically\our world).

    That's just false.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,099
    Every TW game has had easily-surmountable walls. In Rome 2 you could bring a billion pieces of siege equipment, including turtles that broke walls contemptuously quickly. In Shogun 2 your infantry could climb straight over walls with grappling hooks. In Medieval 2, where walls were probably the most impactful in theory, the AI was so bad that you could completely ignore them and just rush the gate. In Napoleon and Empire you had artillery units with infinite ammunition that could knock down as many chunks of wall as you wanted with no penalty and usually no retaliation.

    Walls are not, never have been, and never will be the be-all and end-all of Total War sieges. I don't like the fact that the pocket ladders appear out of nowhere - I would rather have more interesting and varied animations, and I would like to see units actually carrying the ladders with them - but overall this siege rework looked great and I'm excited for it.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    edited October 2021
    SerPus said:

    Laindesh said:

    They got magic, flying units, ginormous entities not to forget artillery that really should make walls redudant.

    Then why are there walls to begin with?
    Laindesh said:

    (they stopped making walls everywhere once cannons became a thing if im right historically\our world).

    That's just false.
    "That's just false."
    Yup, i read up on it now and i dunno why i had that idea XD My mistake.

    "Then why are there walls to begin with? "
    I dont actually mind walls, my core point is that a wall defence only siege (where the whole battle is about breaching the wall) sounds super boring. It would work too heavily in favor of the player too who can easily abuse tightly packed enemy units stationed on the wall, with magic. And the AI breaching the wall, with as dumb as it is? nah.

  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Every TW game has had easily-surmountable walls. In Rome 2 you could bring a billion pieces of siege equipment, including turtles that broke walls contemptuously quickly. In Shogun 2 your infantry could climb straight over walls with grappling hooks. In Medieval 2, where walls were probably the most impactful in theory, the AI was so bad that you could completely ignore them and just rush the gate. In Napoleon and Empire you had artillery units with infinite ammunition that could knock down as many chunks of wall as you wanted with no penalty and usually no retaliation.

    Walls are not, never have been, and never will be the be-all and end-all of Total War sieges. I don't like the fact that the pocket ladders appear out of nowhere - I would rather have more interesting and varied animations, and I would like to see units actually carrying the ladders with them - but overall this siege rework looked great and I'm excited for it.

    That's wrong.

    They changed R2 in the last few patches so that artillery can no longer knockdown walls with disgusting ease due to massively lowered accuracy and the tortoise is so slow, the defenders actually have a chance of killing the soldiers pushing it before it gets close (and most factions can't even build it at all). Troy, Attila and 3K have very strong towers and defenses and attacking them unprepared (or without lame cheese tactics) will cost you a lot of troopers. In 3K and Attila you are also strongly discouraged from allowing enemy troops into the city as they can set it on fire which debuffs your troops. You also can't exit walls wherever you want, so you are funnelled into certain avenues that can be blocked. In all of those titles you are encouraged to starve the defenders out rather than attack them as a first resort.

    It's only TWWH where fortifications have been neutered into complete nothingness.
  • Pocman#6295Pocman#6295 Registered Users Posts: 5,761
    drclaw_tw said:

    I don't get the desire to have arty on walls. Seems ineffective once the enemy closes in or even takes the position.

    Nos arty is uneffective during the whole battle.
  • HeresyHoundHeresyHound Registered Users Posts: 8,285
    Pocman said:

    drclaw_tw said:

    I don't get the desire to have arty on walls. Seems ineffective once the enemy closes in or even takes the position.

    Nos arty is uneffective during the whole battle.
    Well artillery that fires like mortars is currently kinda useful but I do see your point. I feel like the raised parts and bridges further in are going to be the only effective way to use cannons and such during a siege. Which is hilarious since that means you are just blasting artillery into your own city.
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