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Siege Rework Looks Great!

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  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    Pocman said:

    drclaw_tw said:

    I don't get the desire to have arty on walls. Seems ineffective once the enemy closes in or even takes the position.

    Nos arty is uneffective during the whole battle.
    Didnt the blog specifically mention that many of the new siege maps will now have elevations to play artillery on? :)
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Laindesh said:

    Pocman said:

    drclaw_tw said:

    I don't get the desire to have arty on walls. Seems ineffective once the enemy closes in or even takes the position.

    Nos arty is uneffective during the whole battle.
    Didnt the blog specifically mention that many of the new siege maps will now have elevations to play artillery on? :)
    Which is plain stupid because it means you are firing into your city.

    You should be firing on the enemy, OUTSIDE the city.
  • Jo_Proulx#5293Jo_Proulx#5293 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,838

    Every TW game has had easily-surmountable walls. In Rome 2 you could bring a billion pieces of siege equipment, including turtles that broke walls contemptuously quickly. In Shogun 2 your infantry could climb straight over walls with grappling hooks. In Medieval 2, where walls were probably the most impactful in theory, the AI was so bad that you could completely ignore them and just rush the gate. In Napoleon and Empire you had artillery units with infinite ammunition that could knock down as many chunks of wall as you wanted with no penalty and usually no retaliation.

    Walls are not, never have been, and never will be the be-all and end-all of Total War sieges. I don't like the fact that the pocket ladders appear out of nowhere - I would rather have more interesting and varied animations, and I would like to see units actually carrying the ladders with them - but overall this siege rework looked great and I'm excited for it.

    That's wrong.

    They changed R2 in the last few patches so that artillery can no longer knockdown walls with disgusting ease due to massively lowered accuracy and the tortoise is so slow, the defenders actually have a chance of killing the soldiers pushing it before it gets close (and most factions can't even build it at all). Troy, Attila and 3K have very strong towers and defenses and attacking them unprepared (or without lame cheese tactics) will cost you a lot of troopers. In 3K and Attila you are also strongly discouraged from allowing enemy troops into the city as they can set it on fire which debuffs your troops. You also can't exit walls wherever you want, so you are funnelled into certain avenues that can be blocked. In all of those titles you are encouraged to starve the defenders out rather than attack them as a first resort.

    It's only TWWH where fortifications have been neutered into complete nothingness.
    Yes but since its also a game to have fun, it needs a middle ground.

    I would prefer for defences to be very strong but also for siege equipment to be faster to build and really make a difference for the attacker.

    Because if you dont need equipment, you will just attack now to not waste precious turns

    If defences are strong and equipment take so long to build, you might as well starve them out instead of bothering attacking.

    But what I want as a player is to play battles and I want them to be fun to play as well.
    "Fear me mortals, for I am the Anointed, the favored Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall."

    ~ Archaon, Lord of the End Times
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,898
    Laindesh said:

    wall defence only siege

    What? The point is that the walls should be useful, not that the siege map shouldn't go past them.

  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,738

    Laindesh said:

    Pocman said:

    drclaw_tw said:

    I don't get the desire to have arty on walls. Seems ineffective once the enemy closes in or even takes the position.

    Nos arty is uneffective during the whole battle.
    Didnt the blog specifically mention that many of the new siege maps will now have elevations to play artillery on? :)
    Which is plain stupid because it means you are firing into your city.

    You should be firing on the enemy, OUTSIDE the city.
    Eh? If the artillery is on raised elevation, wont they be able to fire outside the city? Thats how i thought it would work ;)
    SerPus said:

    Laindesh said:

    wall defence only siege

    What? The point is that the walls should be useful, not that the siege map shouldn't go past them.

    are you trolling? cause thats like my point?
  • IoriYamadaIoriYamada WalesRegistered Users Posts: 792
    SerPus said:

    Laindesh said:

    wall defence only siege

    What? The point is that the walls should be useful, not that the siege map shouldn't go past them.

    That's pretty much what people have been asking for, greater options on approach and more complex siege maps. If you don't personally like that it's fine but it is what people have asked for.
  • Bonutz#3949Bonutz#3949 Registered Users Posts: 5,765
    I’m very content with the siege rework. They addressed a ton of the current issues and added some new features which is nice.

    Ass ladders are still cringey as ever but overall, very happy.

    8/10
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,898
    Laindesh said:

    are you trolling? cause thats like my point?

    Is it? From what I've seen, you are claiming that walls should be redundant because of magic and artillery.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Pocman said:

    drclaw_tw said:

    I don't get the desire to have arty on walls. Seems ineffective once the enemy closes in or even takes the position.

    Nos arty is uneffective during the whole battle.
    Didnt the blog specifically mention that many of the new siege maps will now have elevations to play artillery on? :)
    Which is plain stupid because it means you are firing into your city.

    You should be firing on the enemy, OUTSIDE the city.
    Eh? If the artillery is on raised elevation, wont they be able to fire outside the city? Thats how i thought it would work ;)
    SerPus said:

    Laindesh said:

    wall defence only siege

    What? The point is that the walls should be useful, not that the siege map shouldn't go past them.

    are you trolling? cause thats like my point?
    Nope, because those raised platforms are further inside the city, so no, you can't aim at units outside the walls...because the walls block LoS.

    Ain't it swell that walls seemingly protect the attacker more than the defender?
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,898

    That's pretty much what people have been asking for, greater options on approach and more complex siege maps. If you don't personally like that it's fine but it is what people have asked for.

    And people also asked for walls to finally be useful
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,738
    SerPus said:

    Laindesh said:

    are you trolling? cause thats like my point?

    Is it? From what I've seen, you are claiming that walls should be redundant because of magic and artillery.
    I think i fail massively to get my thoughts across on that matter, so i'll drop it. Forget that argument.



    Bonutz said:

    I’m very content with the siege rework. They addressed a ton of the current issues and added some new features which is nice.

    Ass ladders are still cringey as ever but overall, very happy.

    8/10

    multilayered sieges, with elevated spots for artillery, multiple sides to attack.
    Looks good :)

    Them using the survival stuff for it was expected.
  • Boria#9178Boria#9178 Registered Users Posts: 410
    looks like this is not a rework implies reworking something old hence WH1 and WH2. It's a feature of WH3. there no mention of changing Mortal Empires joined map sieges on WH1 and WH2. which means that about 75% of the map won't have minor settlement sieges.

    I am reasonable I don't mean unique maps for WH1/WH2 but minimum minor settlements for WH1 and WH2 races.

    This is the only game where with more revealed the less hyped I become.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,738

    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Pocman said:

    drclaw_tw said:

    I don't get the desire to have arty on walls. Seems ineffective once the enemy closes in or even takes the position.

    Nos arty is uneffective during the whole battle.
    Didnt the blog specifically mention that many of the new siege maps will now have elevations to play artillery on? :)
    Which is plain stupid because it means you are firing into your city.

    You should be firing on the enemy, OUTSIDE the city.
    Eh? If the artillery is on raised elevation, wont they be able to fire outside the city? Thats how i thought it would work ;)
    SerPus said:

    Laindesh said:

    wall defence only siege

    What? The point is that the walls should be useful, not that the siege map shouldn't go past them.

    are you trolling? cause thats like my point?
    Nope, because those raised platforms are further inside the city, so no, you can't aim at units outside the walls...because the walls block LoS.

    Ain't it swell that walls seemingly protect the attacker more than the defender?
    I dunno, i think they should be able to fire over the walls until the enemy units is too close to the walls, but that sounds pretty logical to me. (Aka the closer the enemy is to the wall the more LoS defender artillery loose.)

    I can't really toss an argument about it until i see how it works in action.
  • AxiosXiphos#9040AxiosXiphos#9040 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,717
    Boria said:

    looks like this is not a rework implies reworking something old hence WH1 and WH2. It's a feature of WH3. there no mention of changing Mortal Empires joined map sieges on WH1 and WH2. which means that about 75% of the map won't have minor settlement sieges.

    I am reasonable I don't mean unique maps for WH1/WH2 but minimum minor settlements for WH1 and WH2 races.

    This is the only game where with more revealed the less hyped I become.

    If you read the blog; it seems to suggest that all maps will use these new features. Bare in mind that Immortal empires probably won't be with us until 2023...
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited October 2021
    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Pocman said:

    drclaw_tw said:

    I don't get the desire to have arty on walls. Seems ineffective once the enemy closes in or even takes the position.

    Nos arty is uneffective during the whole battle.
    Didnt the blog specifically mention that many of the new siege maps will now have elevations to play artillery on? :)
    Which is plain stupid because it means you are firing into your city.

    You should be firing on the enemy, OUTSIDE the city.
    Eh? If the artillery is on raised elevation, wont they be able to fire outside the city? Thats how i thought it would work ;)
    SerPus said:

    Laindesh said:

    wall defence only siege

    What? The point is that the walls should be useful, not that the siege map shouldn't go past them.

    are you trolling? cause thats like my point?
    Nope, because those raised platforms are further inside the city, so no, you can't aim at units outside the walls...because the walls block LoS.

    Ain't it swell that walls seemingly protect the attacker more than the defender?
    I dunno, i think they should be able to fire over the walls until the enemy units is too close to the walls, but that sounds pretty logical to me. (Aka the closer the enemy is to the wall the more LoS defender artillery loose.)

    I can't really toss an argument about it until i see how it works in action.
    The further behind the walls any cannon is placed, the larger the blind spot in front of the walls gets. Rome2, Attila and 3K have artillery that's a dedicated part of the fortifications, why can't we have that in TWWH? Why this tower defense nonsense instead?
  • XxXScorpionXxX#2310XxXScorpionXxX#2310 Registered Users Posts: 6,146
    my first impressions of it is that it looks awful. I'll give it a chance but I'm not even a little bit enthusiastic.
    Request scorched body textures, and fire death effects. At least 30% of all damage in this game comes from fire sources. Request Fire for the Fire God DLC.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,738

    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Pocman said:

    drclaw_tw said:

    I don't get the desire to have arty on walls. Seems ineffective once the enemy closes in or even takes the position.

    Nos arty is uneffective during the whole battle.
    Didnt the blog specifically mention that many of the new siege maps will now have elevations to play artillery on? :)
    Which is plain stupid because it means you are firing into your city.

    You should be firing on the enemy, OUTSIDE the city.
    Eh? If the artillery is on raised elevation, wont they be able to fire outside the city? Thats how i thought it would work ;)
    SerPus said:

    Laindesh said:

    wall defence only siege

    What? The point is that the walls should be useful, not that the siege map shouldn't go past them.

    are you trolling? cause thats like my point?
    Nope, because those raised platforms are further inside the city, so no, you can't aim at units outside the walls...because the walls block LoS.

    Ain't it swell that walls seemingly protect the attacker more than the defender?
    I dunno, i think they should be able to fire over the walls until the enemy units is too close to the walls, but that sounds pretty logical to me. (Aka the closer the enemy is to the wall the more LoS defender artillery loose.)

    I can't really toss an argument about it until i see how it works in action.
    The further behind the walls any cannon is placed, the larger the blind spot in front of the walls gets. Rome2, Attila and 3K have artillery that's a dedicated part of the fortifications, why can't we have that in TWWH? Why this tower defense nonsense instead?
    Like i said: I shouldnt discuss this before i see how it works. The Blog is good and all, but i want to see it in action.

    my first impressions of it is that it looks awful. I'll give it a chance but I'm not even a little bit enthusiastic.

    after reading the blog, i think it sounds great. But how it'll work out in practise remains to be seen.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Laindesh said:

    Pocman said:

    drclaw_tw said:

    I don't get the desire to have arty on walls. Seems ineffective once the enemy closes in or even takes the position.

    Nos arty is uneffective during the whole battle.
    Didnt the blog specifically mention that many of the new siege maps will now have elevations to play artillery on? :)
    Which is plain stupid because it means you are firing into your city.

    You should be firing on the enemy, OUTSIDE the city.
    Eh? If the artillery is on raised elevation, wont they be able to fire outside the city? Thats how i thought it would work ;)
    SerPus said:

    Laindesh said:

    wall defence only siege

    What? The point is that the walls should be useful, not that the siege map shouldn't go past them.

    are you trolling? cause thats like my point?
    Nope, because those raised platforms are further inside the city, so no, you can't aim at units outside the walls...because the walls block LoS.

    Ain't it swell that walls seemingly protect the attacker more than the defender?
    I dunno, i think they should be able to fire over the walls until the enemy units is too close to the walls, but that sounds pretty logical to me. (Aka the closer the enemy is to the wall the more LoS defender artillery loose.)

    I can't really toss an argument about it until i see how it works in action.
    The further behind the walls any cannon is placed, the larger the blind spot in front of the walls gets. Rome2, Attila and 3K have artillery that's a dedicated part of the fortifications, why can't we have that in TWWH? Why this tower defense nonsense instead?
    Like i said: I shouldnt discuss this before i see how it works. The Blog is good and all, but i want to see it in action.

    my first impressions of it is that it looks awful. I'll give it a chance but I'm not even a little bit enthusiastic.

    after reading the blog, i think it sounds great. But how it'll work out in practise remains to be seen.
    We already had working artillery on walls in other TWs. There's absolutely no reason to not have it in TWWH too.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,684
    Gotta say: meh!
    Everything included is certainly an improvement though you could argue against the option of deploying, well deployables during the battle. It's a strategy game after all and strategy (in contrast to tactics) is all about having a plan in advance.
    Anyway, just using ladders in walls and gate rushing with characters and monsters doesn't seem to have been adressed. Walls are still barely an obstacle and siege engines rather unnecessary.
    I had hoped for more, though I didn't really expect it.
    I'm gonna repeat myself and say that boiling (AoE) oil on gates and rocks dropped at climbers would've been easy fixes to these issues.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,684
    edited October 2021
    Didn't work, please delete.
  • TheTrue_LordAndy#1434TheTrue_LordAndy#1434 Registered Users Posts: 1,004
    Agreed, the settlement design reminds me of Medieval 2 type siege experiences and better.

    Lots of nice improvements including some units being able to directly break the walls.

    The idea of the multiple capture points with supplies seems great. I am glad that they are incorporating many game improvements from three kingdoms and Troy in Warhammer,, such as the AI behavior during sieges.
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