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Sotek video on how These are Daemon factions (Not Mortals) for TWW3

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  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 7,570

    man these bad takes from him keep coming. Why is he so determined to defend CA on this?

    "Stop complaining CA should give us less and we should want less for our money!"

    like in what world does someone think this is a reasonable position.

    I think you are missing the context here as this video alone doen't really show his whole argument. He isn't "defending CA", at least in any way I can see. He is doing mental gymnastics to argue what we are getting is what he prefers, which is a greater focus on the WoC. I don't think that comes across well in this video as it more focusses on him thinking the Khorne blog shows the Monos won't get mortal LLs, rather than the big picture of him thinking said mortal LLs will ALL go to WoC.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 32,291
    Controversy creates cash. The fact you're talking about it makes it a successful video.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster

  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 7,570
    JungleElf said:

    Goatforce said:

    JungleElf said:

    Pocman said:

    Crossil said:

    So I disagree with Sotek's take, but I see a lot of people misinterpreting his position. Sotek is arguing that monogods are going to have mechanics specifically for daemon led factions that will differ from the mortal led factions, both under the monogod umbrella. So when Valkia is added if she is in monoKhorne (which I think she will be) she won't have access to some of the base Khorne mechanics and will have elements based around being a "mortal" champion. This has nothing to do with the presence of mortals, but with their mechanical implementation.

    No, we already know full well what his position is. He says that there will be no mortals in the God aligned races, whereas there is only some mechanics that will be shared with Khornate factions, aka the Khornate factions of WoC sharing a mechanic with Khorne Daemons race, that is factions of the Khorne race. He's adamantly claiming that the Daemon mechanics are what proves there won't be mortals in the Monogod races.

    You should listen carefully to how he's presenting it. It might not be entirely obvious in this video, but he has made his position obvious before. And it's pretty clear here if you pay attention to how he's presenting it.

    He's entirely wrong, of course.
    Agree. He is trying to use the fact that some mechanics are "demonic" while other are "khornate" as an argument. I don't think it is the argument he thinks it is.
    It's funny, because we're told those shown mechanics are actually 'race'-wide (to some fashion), completely deflecting his point if Mortal Legendary Lords (likely) will be a thing.
    Yeah I remember on a stream of his saying that, to counter his argument of essentially "what about WoC" I said: "well perhaps WoC will be able to confed mortal mono LLs" and he thought that would be strange and unworkable.

    Now he seems to think that aligned WoC LLs will get the general race mechanics of their patron god! As if that is more workable than being able to take control of a few LLs in WoC!
    To be fair, I don't think Monogod races could or should confederate with each other, or with Undivided. Undivided couldn't confederate with Beastmen or Norsca, either.

    It's still loreful for mortal champions to lead Monogod armies as they're usually lieutenants for such marked units.

    So, my take:
    - Mortal champions (Vilitch, Tamurkhan, Valkia, etc.) will be part of Monogod armies.
    - They'll generally use those 'racial' mechanics.
    - They'll also have some kind of LL-specific mechanic.
    - They can confederate with other Lords from the same race, where reasonable (Khorne <-> Khorne).
    - They can't confederate with other Monogod armies, nor with Chaos Undivided and their derivatives.

    This has generally been the case for each race thus far, and I doubt the Monogods will be the exception.

    As for more loreful Chaos Invasions? Those should feature a combination of Undivided, Monogod, Beastmen and Norscan and , keeping those armies separate, but still loreful. Remember; the Chaos Gods sent multiple servants with armies to 'serve' Archaeon, but also themselves, during the End Times.

    People wanting all of chaos on one big heap, are basically the people wanting the cake, but eating it too.
    I don't mean confederate in necessarily the same way as it is implemented now. Perhaps better to say access in the same sense of the "recruit defeated LLs" mod, if you are familiar with it. In essence if you defeat the mortal Mono LL's race you can force them to submit and they will be added to the LL pool for your race (maybe with the red skill line altered to fit WoC).

    In essence Archaon or other WoC characters can force individual mortal LLs to join their cause by wiping out their armies.

    At least I see it as something like that (I am hoping for something similar with Be'Lakor with Daemons), in essence even though you cannot start with these characters, you will still be able to have access to the whole WoC list of characters, or at least those in the WoC and Mono roster, through conquest
  • Rasmus242Rasmus242 Registered Users Posts: 660
    Skaven are just mad/scheming enough to consider alliances, while Norscans, Beastmen, and the Warriors of Chaos are, of course, mortal servants.


    I remember way back before WH3 announcement one of the big arguments vs monogods were WoC and how it made more sense to just keep them separated. Now that we have monogods it'd be confusing as all hell to have neat division of the gods in the DoC realm but WoC is all in one basket. Even if you argue CA could renovate WoC to support it, it'd get really awkard with the discrepancy and naming.

    I honestly just think WoC will be this placeholder thing and that we'll see the mortal parts of the monogods expanded in future DLC's.

    Or maybe WoC will get turned into Chaos Undivided and they add Be'lakor to that faction? Could be a spicy rework that makes more sense with the theme + sorting.
  • Spellbound55Spellbound55 Registered Users Posts: 1,031
    Crossil said:

    So I disagree with Sotek's take, but I see a lot of people misinterpreting his position. Sotek is arguing that monogods are going to have mechanics specifically for daemon led factions that will differ from the mortal led factions, both under the monogod umbrella. So when Valkia is added if she is in monoKhorne (which I think she will be) she won't have access to some of the base Khorne mechanics and will have elements based around being a "mortal" champion. This has nothing to do with the presence of mortals, but with their mechanical implementation.

    No, we already know full well what his position is. He says that there will be no mortals in the God aligned races, whereas there is only some mechanics that will be shared with Khornate factions, aka the Khornate factions of WoC sharing a mechanic with Khorne Daemons race, that is factions of the Khorne race. He's adamantly claiming that the Daemon mechanics are what proves there won't be mortals in the Monogod races.

    You should listen carefully to how he's presenting it. It might not be entirely obvious in this video, but he has made his position obvious before. And it's pretty clear here if you pay attention to how he's presenting it.

    He's entirely wrong, of course.
    I'm just going off what he's said in this video, which doesn't preclude mortal lords in monogods. He spends some time pointing out that WoC are still a race, which no one was disputing, rather than stating that mortal lords are only going to end up in WoC. He notes he expects that mortal lords will have hybrid mechanics, but whether that makes them WoC or monogod is someone pedantic. The real question is one of roster access. If there is additional context indicating that he thinks this means we won't see mortal lords in monogod factions at all I haven't seen it. I was more responding to people noting that we know mortals are in monogod races, which isn't a point he's disputed in this video.

    Regardless of which wrong position he holds he is most definitely wrong so we're on the same page there.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 28,328
    Krunch said:

    ArneSo said:

    He has no idea what he’s talking about. We know that they are Monogods since February.

    Lol ArneSo, I think you have some "fans". You literally said the same thing as everyone else in the thread and got disagrees for it.
    Yeah there are some people here who follow me and disagree with everything I post no matter what.

    I think that this behaviour is quite pathetic and stupid honestly. 😅
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 6,177
    ArneSo said:

    Krunch said:

    ArneSo said:

    He has no idea what he’s talking about. We know that they are Monogods since February.

    Lol ArneSo, I think you have some "fans". You literally said the same thing as everyone else in the thread and got disagrees for it.
    Yeah there are some people here who follow me and disagree with everything I post no matter what.

    I think that this behaviour is quite pathetic and stupid honestly. 😅
    Oh definitely. I sometimes agree with you, sometimes not. You're one of this forums' butts sometimes, but you're our butt.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,301
    Although i disagree with his premise, i don't think he is saying there will be no mortals in this armies (which would be a stupid thing to say for obvious reasons) but that the focus is going to be put in the demons, with mortals being a footnote. Whicch, as of today, is true.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 28,328
    JungleElf said:

    ArneSo said:

    Krunch said:

    ArneSo said:

    He has no idea what he’s talking about. We know that they are Monogods since February.

    Lol ArneSo, I think you have some "fans". You literally said the same thing as everyone else in the thread and got disagrees for it.
    Yeah there are some people here who follow me and disagree with everything I post no matter what.

    I think that this behaviour is quite pathetic and stupid honestly. 😅
    Oh definitely. I sometimes agree with you, sometimes not. You're one of this forums' butts sometimes, but you're our butt.
    That’s the nature of a forum mate. Sometimes you agree, sometimes you disagree. Sometimes it might even get a bit hot in a discussion and sometimes I write harsher than I want to be.

    I just think it’s silly if people include personal feelings towards other users here. But it is what it is.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,917
    Pocman said:

    Although i disagree with his premise, i don't think he is saying there will be no mortals in this armies (which would be a stupid thing to say for obvious reasons) but that the focus is going to be put in the demons, with mortals being a footnote. Whicch, as of today, is true.

    As of release it is; but its illogical to think that in long term. Given that DLC and FLC are confirmed. The moment one Mortal LL is introduced its not a Daemon faction.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 6,177
    Djau said:

    Pocman said:

    Although i disagree with his premise, i don't think he is saying there will be no mortals in this armies (which would be a stupid thing to say for obvious reasons) but that the focus is going to be put in the demons, with mortals being a footnote. Whicch, as of today, is true.

    As of release it is; but its illogical to think that in long term. Given that DLC and FLC are confirmed. The moment one Mortal LL is introduced its not a Daemon faction.
    They're actually not a demon army already, as 1/4 is mortal.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 32,291
    JungleElf said:

    ArneSo said:

    Krunch said:

    ArneSo said:

    He has no idea what he’s talking about. We know that they are Monogods since February.

    Lol ArneSo, I think you have some "fans". You literally said the same thing as everyone else in the thread and got disagrees for it.
    Yeah there are some people here who follow me and disagree with everything I post no matter what.

    I think that this behaviour is quite pathetic and stupid honestly. 😅
    Oh definitely. I sometimes agree with you, sometimes not. You're one of this forums' butts sometimes, but you're our butt.
    The irony of Arne whining about this when I ignored him for like 2 years while he followed me around desperate for my attention is delicious.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    #JusticeForCathay

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster

  • MaelasMaelas Registered Users Posts: 5,180
    Classical Sotek logic :

    "Mhmm, the mortal side of the Mono races is disappointing, how could I twist it in a way that justify and excuse my favorite multi-million dollars company ? Oh yes, I'll say they are just daemon factions, so it's actually done on purpose !"

    Man is swallowing the entire cuissarde at this point
  • MaelasMaelas Registered Users Posts: 5,180

    Sotek - great when talking about existing lore; terrible when speculating I'm afraid :D

    Addendum : Not great at talking about new lore, given how he was fumbling about the Dragon Emperor actually having the same power level as back in the Old World, trying to cobble together out-of-context lore tidbits, instead of just accepting the perfectly fine, and non-problematic fact that yes, the Cathayan Dragon Emperor is very different than before, and no, that doesn't mean it's bad.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 7,570
    Maelas said:

    Classical Sotek logic :

    "Mhmm, the mortal side of the Mono races is disappointing, how could I twist it in a way that justify and excuse my favorite multi-million dollars company ? Oh yes, I'll say they are just daemon factions, so it's actually done on purpose !"

    Man is swallowing the entire cuissarde at this point

    As I said above to someone else, that isn't his overall argument though. He wants all the mortal LLs in WoC, and seems to be of the opinion if Monos get Mortal LLs then that means WoC will be basically left behind. Whilst he doesn't communicate the overall gist of his argument in this video he has talked about it a fair amount on his streams. That's why he wants the Monos to be "daemons+some mortals" only.

    It's not a point of view I agree with at all, but it is not done to shill at all.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,917
    Warriors of Chaos is doomed to that essentially though by virtue of being a DLC faction. Why should Monos be treated worse than a DLC?
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 7,570
    Djau said:

    Warriors of Chaos is doomed to that essentially though by virtue of being a DLC faction. Why should Monos be treated worse than a DLC?

    Yeah I think the confidence he has that WoC will get a ton of characters in game 3 is very misplaced. The amount of focus it would take on a single race would be pretty staggering, it would make the Skaven in WH2 look just moderately benefiting from some increased focus, or the Vamps in WH 1 getting a tad more FLC attention.

    They will get a rework, which will probably make them very fun to play, and will be linked to the mortal side of the Monos in some way though to what extent we don't know (I think at the very least WoC owners will be able to use stuff like Skullcrushers in game 3's ME). But personally I don't think they will get DLC, they will thrive off the mortal gains in Monos for the most part imo, and might get some FLC LLs.

    That's my take anyway.
  • MaelasMaelas Registered Users Posts: 5,180
    Goatforce said:


    As I said above to someone else, that isn't his overall argument though. He wants all the mortal LLs in WoC, and seems to be of the opinion if Monos get Mortal LLs then that means WoC will be basically left behind.

    I hear you, but the question I'd ask then is : If the mortal side of monogods wasn't severely lacking at release, would Sotek still do the same claim ? Or is it a justification a posteriori, like he's known to do, that good old olympic mental gymnast!
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 7,570
    Maelas said:

    Goatforce said:


    As I said above to someone else, that isn't his overall argument though. He wants all the mortal LLs in WoC, and seems to be of the opinion if Monos get Mortal LLs then that means WoC will be basically left behind.

    I hear you, but the question I'd ask then is : If the mortal side of monogods wasn't severely lacking at release, would Sotek still do the same claim ? Or is it a justification a posteriori, like he's known to do, that good old olympic mental gymnast!
    Couldn't say honestly. I mean the lack of mortal stuff generally speaks to me of an intent to fill the void later, but then a quality issue could be viewed as the opposite, but that is just how I see it.

    As to Sotek's view on that particular I couldn't say with any reliability. I would hazard a guess at yes judging from his current content as he seems dead set on the Monos not getting massive support and focus shifting to WoC, but I cannot remember if that was his original position at announce.
  • WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,307
    Reeks said:

    Tldr version?

    Sotek (intentionally?) misses the "monogod" word on the first paragraph of the Tzeentch blog, and has been pretty adamant that Monogods are more Daemons & Friends or plain Daemon rather than monogod. Thats it.
  • xDEMOSxxDEMOSx Registered Users Posts: 969
    It's no accident that Sotek thinks the lists of gods are completely fine and doesn't really criticize anything other than their existence as lists.

    He doesn't understand until now, what is monogods.
    The chaos situation prevents me from enjoying or having the hype for the game, and without chaos nothing else matters, CA didn't do a good job and I won't buy this game, it's not worth my money.
  • duglandtotoduglandtoto Registered Users Posts: 439
    edited October 2021
    MiniaAr said:

    Neodeinos said:

    Sotek - great when talking about existing lore; terrible when speculating I'm afraid :D

    Yeah, I very much enjoy his positivity and excitement when he plays the game on stream and when he talks about the lore but when speculating or criticising CA it's impossible to take him seriously.
    My point as well.

    He's loremaster for a reason, he has access to a lot of lore which is good. But he's not a reviewer. But it's ok, each Youtuber can have distinct strengths for distinct crowds. Legend is there for the cheeser, Turin&Indypride for multiplayer, etc...
    Are you kidding? Indypride knows as much about Lore as he does about battles and campaigns. He is for me, by far, the best English youtuber on Warhammer. Unlike Sotek, he doesn't have a biaised opinion on the stuff we getting because he doesn't wanna please CA, just wants to speak frankly on the lore, on the game, on what is good or bad.
    Unlike Legend, he is not only focusing on figures and stats but covers all.

    Sotek is a shame. He just blame people for complaining about the recolored models. He says a faction with mortals is a deamon faction, He also tried to lecture us amid the blacklivematter trend as if people needed to be lectured because they are too dumb for him.

    I never watch his videos full of ....
    Just Total war, indypride, and sometimes Grudges when he makes interesting speculations.
  • doclumbagodoclumbago Registered Users Posts: 2,149
    I think Soteks reasoning is fine.
    He's just wrong because he is putting too much value on certain facts, like there seems to be mechanics for Chaos Demons and Mortals.
    But non-Skryre Skaven have no Workshop
    so that is not an argument
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 28,328
    Djau said:

    Warriors of Chaos is doomed to that essentially though by virtue of being a DLC faction. Why should Monos be treated worse than a DLC?

    They can still get 1 great LP tho since there is more than enough great undivided stuff missing.
    - Chaos War Shrine
    - Giant Chaos Spawn
    - Chimera
    - Chaos Ogres
    - Flayerkin
  • BloodydaggerBloodydagger Registered Users Posts: 3,641
    Sotek low key doesn't know what he leads on about Warhammer. He knows some things, but he's not the master some think he is.
  • MrDragonMrDragon Registered Users Posts: 3,152
    edited October 2021
    I think he's wildly overthinking things here but to play devil's advocate.
    The blogs for Khorne and Tzeentch do use the word Daemon there and it is possible that a faction led by say Horstmann or Valkia has somewhat divergent mechanics to symbolise them being mortal-led.

    There is no way to know though until the DLCs start dropping. The blogs are fairly explicitly telling us that there will be additional lords for the monogod factions with all this: "This is Tzeentch mechanics, not Kairos mechanics." stuff.

    The wordings on the blogs leaves room to speculate at least but Sotek as per usual takes things a little too far.
    To his credit, he does bring out that "thinking cap" to metaphorically sprinkle some salt over his own takes.
  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 8,917
    Its weird, cause they also use the term Monogod too.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.

    We're paying full price for a Chaos Warrior of Tzeentch without any actual Tzeentch markings or changes to the model? Change this now CA, #JusticeForTzeentch #TLM
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