Wallbreaker on Ogres is not Ideal

Wyvax#7456

So, I'm glad to see that Wallbreaker is in the game on giant monsters like the Giant and Stonehorn, but it being on the ogres themselves seems quite excessive. Is this exclusive to the OK or will other monstrous infantry get it as well such as Kroxigors and Trolls? They're already capable of attacking doors which is cool, but smashing down the walls sounds overkill, that's akin to regular infantry chopping down the doors. IMO Wallbreaker only makes sense on very specific units, the most massive and powerful of SEMs (Shaggoths, Dread Saurians, Giants, Mammoths, etc) or on specialist units such as Warp Grinders and Dwarfen Miners.

Honestly it just seems like sieges are just being even more trivialized. There's no reason that monstrous infantry like ogres can't make a big ramp/siege tower to get onto the walls or scale them from the inside.

Commissar_G#7535

I'd be willing to bet most units with siege attacker have it now.

Except maybe Vlad. But that would look badass and I want it now that I think about it.

Valkaar#2507

Wallbreaker also breaks down the walls way too quickly.

It only further encourages you to abandon them immediately.

I'm okay with it being a trait, but it should take a more significant amount of time.

brago90#3911

Wyvax said:

So, I'm glad to see that Wallbreaker is in the game on giant monsters like the Giant and Stonehorn, but it being on the ogres themselves seems quite excessive. Is this exclusive to the OK or will other monstrous infantry get it as well such as Kroxigors and Trolls? They're already capable of attacking doors which is cool, but smashing down the walls sounds overkill, that's akin to regular infantry chopping down the doors. IMO Wallbreaker only makes sense on very specific units, the most massive and powerful of SEMs (Shaggoths, Dread Saurians, Giants, Mammoths, etc) or on specialist units such as Warp Grinders and Dwarfen Miners.

Honestly it just seems like sieges are just being even more trivialized. There's no reason that monstrous infantry like ogres can't make a big ramp/siege tower to get onto the walls or scale them from the inside.

Ogres can break walls because they cannot scale walls.

#568367

I'm guessing it's to compensate for lacking many units that can scale walls


Definitely not ideal, so let's hope it's Ogre specific

Loreguy#1056

brago90 said:

Wyvax said:

So, I'm glad to see that Wallbreaker is in the game on giant monsters like the Giant and Stonehorn, but it being on the ogres themselves seems quite excessive. Is this exclusive to the OK or will other monstrous infantry get it as well such as Kroxigors and Trolls? They're already capable of attacking doors which is cool, but smashing down the walls sounds overkill, that's akin to regular infantry chopping down the doors. IMO Wallbreaker only makes sense on very specific units, the most massive and powerful of SEMs (Shaggoths, Dread Saurians, Giants, Mammoths, etc) or on specialist units such as Warp Grinders and Dwarfen Miners.

Honestly it just seems like sieges are just being even more trivialized. There's no reason that monstrous infantry like ogres can't make a big ramp/siege tower to get onto the walls or scale them from the inside.

Ogres can break walls because they cannot scale walls.

I think it's this. If they can't fight on the walls they can at least attack the walls.

Wyvax#7456

GreenColoured said:

I'm guessing it's to compensate for lacking many units that can scale walls


Definitely not ideal, so let's hope it's Ogre specific

That begs the question though, if it's Ogre specific then it's pretty immersion breaking. So the big chungus cavemen can batter down stone walls but Dragon Ogres, Fimir and hulk hand Kroxigors can not? There's no internal consistency there.

#568367

Wyvax said:

GreenColoured said:

I'm guessing it's to compensate for lacking many units that can scale walls


Definitely not ideal, so let's hope it's Ogre specific

That begs the question though, if it's Ogre specific then it's pretty immersion breaking. So the big chungus cavemen can batter down stone walls but Dragon Ogres, Fimir and hulk hand Kroxigors can not? There's no internal consistency there.

Pretty sure ogres are quite a bit stronger than fimir looking at respective arm sizes



Bit weird for Kroxies and dragon ogres not tho if ogres could.


Ooohh but if Animated Hulks could maybe they might be used for once!

Wyvax#7456

GreenColoured said:

Wyvax said:

GreenColoured said:

I'm guessing it's to compensate for lacking many units that can scale walls


Definitely not ideal, so let's hope it's Ogre specific

That begs the question though, if it's Ogre specific then it's pretty immersion breaking. So the big chungus cavemen can batter down stone walls but Dragon Ogres, Fimir and hulk hand Kroxigors can not? There's no internal consistency there.

Pretty sure ogres are quite a bit stronger than fimir looking at respective arm sizes



Bit weird for Kroxies and dragon ogres not tho if ogres could.


Ooohh but if Animated Hulks could maybe they might be used for once!

I mean have you seen the great maces the Fimir are rocking? Those things are straight up boss weapons from Dark Souls! But I digress. With each cool new thing coming in WH3 there seems to be a design or mechanic decision implemented that I find really off putting. I play things vanilla almost exclusively but it's getting to the point were I feel like I'm going to have to mod the game in order to play it without getting irked by something that I view as really really poor design.

elkapp

One might say, the siege rework has not been ideal.
Like, at all.

Red_Dox#2328

GreenColoured said:

Wyvax said:

GreenColoured said:

I'm guessing it's to compensate for lacking many units that can scale walls


Definitely not ideal, so let's hope it's Ogre specific

That begs the question though, if it's Ogre specific then it's pretty immersion breaking. So the big chungus cavemen can batter down stone walls but Dragon Ogres, Fimir and hulk hand Kroxigors can not? There's no internal consistency there.

Pretty sure ogres are quite a bit stronger than fimir looking at respective arm sizes

Ushabti has S6
Troll has S5
Treekin has S5
Rat Ogre has S5
Dragon Ogre would be S5 too, but they are Monstrous Beasts not Monstrous Infantry like the rest mentioned here.
Kroxigor has S4
Generic Ogre is S4. The more elite ones (Maneater, characters) have 5.
Fimir Warriors have S4

Monstrous Infantry while mostly around the same stats can have some different attributes depending on race/lore and possible extra equipment. In case of Ogres for example, when Ironguts with S4 wield Great Weapons for S+2, they would be on Ushabti strength level. Same goes for Fimir and probably Kroxigor (to lazy to pick up the armybook). Generic Ogres are certainly strong but not the strongest of the bunch. So every Ogre getting Wallbreaker is indeed a bit weird.

Yes, it might be because they can't climb walls. But neither do the other MI candidates. We can argue here that a Tomb King army will not mostly have Ushabti, but lets say I make a whole Ushabti stack. Should they then not also be Wallbreakers?

We had so far not seen much MI, since Cathay and Kislev have none. So besides Ogre Kingdoms the only other to keep an eye on would be recolored Chaos Spawns and Minotaurs. Anyone noticed if they got Wallbreaker too? Because if so, then it might become a generic MI special rule for game#3

-----Red Dox

Bloodydagger#9716

Ogre see Ogre crush

Rasmus242

elkapp said:

One might say, the siege rework has not been ideal.
Like, at all.

They didn't decide to remove buttladders. You disagree. I wouldn't call this making the siege rework a failure. I mean, obviously depending on what people expect it might be a failure to them but to me the most important part is if it makes the game more fun and enjoyable with varied sieges so you don't repeat the same boring map forever into eternity.

Wyvax#7456

Red_Dox said:

GreenColoured said:

Wyvax said:

GreenColoured said:

I'm guessing it's to compensate for lacking many units that can scale walls


Definitely not ideal, so let's hope it's Ogre specific

That begs the question though, if it's Ogre specific then it's pretty immersion breaking. So the big chungus cavemen can batter down stone walls but Dragon Ogres, Fimir and hulk hand Kroxigors can not? There's no internal consistency there.

Pretty sure ogres are quite a bit stronger than fimir looking at respective arm sizes

Ushabti has S6
Troll has S5
Treekin has S5
Rat Ogre has S5
Dragon Ogre would be S5 too, but they are Monstrous Beasts not Monstrous Infantry like the rest mentioned here.
Kroxigor has S4
Generic Ogre is S4. The more elite ones (Maneater, characters) have 5.
Fimir Warriors have S4

Monstrous Infantry while mostly around the same stats can have some different attributes depending on race/lore and possible extra equipment. In case of Ogres for example, when Ironguts with S4 wield Great Weapons for S+2, they would be on Ushabti strength level. Same goes for Fimir and probably Kroxigor (to lazy to pick up the armybook). Generic Ogres are certainly strong but not the strongest of the bunch. So every Ogre getting Wallbreaker is indeed a bit weird.

Yes, it might be because they can't climb walls. But neither do the other MI candidates. We can argue here that a Tomb King army will not mostly have Ushabti, but lets say I make a whole Ushabti stack. Should they then not also be Wallbreakers?

We had so far not seen much MI, since Cathay and Kislev have none. So besides Ogre Kingdoms the only other to keep an eye on would be recolored Chaos Spawns and Minotaurs. Anyone noticed if they got Wallbreaker too? Because if so, then it might become a generic MI special rule for game#3

-----Red Dox

So I took a look at two vids from Zerkovich and Indypride respectively, and the neither of the stat cards for Minotaurs of Khorne or Spawn of Tzeentch have the Wallbreaker icon. So it's confirmed that only the OK get it. I'm going to be overcome with cynical laughter if it's available to the OK giant but not the GS, WoC, BM or Norscan giants. Talk about arbitrary, arcadey design.

elkapp

Rasmus242 said:

elkapp said:

One might say, the siege rework has not been ideal.
Like, at all.

They didn't decide to remove buttladders. You disagree. I wouldn't call this making the siege rework a failure. I mean, obviously depending on what people expect it might be a failure to them but to me the most important part is if it makes the game more fun and enjoyable with varied sieges so you don't repeat the same boring map forever into eternity.

My issue is, they damn feel like nothing has been improved compared to the WH2 sieges.

On the defense WH2 sieges solved essentially on the flag square since that was the only defensible place of the map. Various layouts made this arbitrarily easier or harder, but still that you would abandon insta the wall (except for Skaven and LM due to op towers) and (try to) create a killzone on the entrance to the flag square.
I disliked this since it made siege battles feel like some rushed project barely put in the game a week before launch. Bloody hell how i couldn't given how they would give you cannons (i repeat, cannons) that you couldn't neither put on the walls nor beyond them. Walls bloody felt an issue rather than a tool: almost a forced nerf for the defender.

Attack even wasn't great: you could from one side set a static artillery line to bombard the enemy from range, but would see no resistance from mobile units (which were kept for some reason in the flag square) nor there were any long-range tools the enemy could use to snipe my artillery; from the other you could send a half-stack of SEM to rush the gate, and since the AI's pathing is good like a fist in the face they couldn't use ranged troops to seriously damage them.
And is not like those armies shouldn't perform well in sieges. They should (i picked them for that reason), just, the enemy should have some tools to punish their bad use.

Now, what did the the siege rework do to fix this? On the defense, they made more deadly choke points, and on the offensive they made the AI split their forces so you can pick them apart more easily with melee troops (and apparently reduce the number of towers for some sides). It made them just easier, but no more interesting tactically.

Asamu#6386

Red_Dox said:

Ushabti has S6
Troll has S5
Treekin has S5
Rat Ogre has S5
Dragon Ogre would be S5 too, but they are Monstrous Beasts not Monstrous Infantry like the rest mentioned here.
Kroxigor has S4
Generic Ogre is S4. The more elite ones (Maneater, characters) have 5.
Fimir Warriors have S4

Kroxigors were S5 on tabletop.


As far as the topic:

It actually makes some sense for Ogres to get it, but not all necessarily monstrous infantry from other factions. Ogres don't care about the walls. They don't want them even if they take the city. They don't really get the concept of building things that can last.

Kroxigors, are pretty dumb, but they're also part of a civilization that uses fortifications, and primarily serve to help with their construction. Breaking down walls doesn't really fit their goals.

For minotaurs and spawn, such a point doesn't really hold though, since beastmen universally HATE cities (Being driven mad by "civilization" is an important part of their lore), and Spawn are pretty much completely mindless.

Red_Dox#2328

Asamu said:

Red_Dox said:

Ushabti has S6
Troll has S5
Treekin has S5
Rat Ogre has S5
Dragon Ogre would be S5 too, but they are Monstrous Beasts not Monstrous Infantry like the rest mentioned here.
Kroxigor has S4
Generic Ogre is S4. The more elite ones (Maneater, characters) have 5.
Fimir Warriors have S4

Kroxigors were S5 on tabletop.

I said I was lazy and just flipped through the rulebook, but there it was listed as 4

Still not in the mood to pick up the Lizard armybook to check if actually 5 there

-----Red Dox

Maedrethnir#1968

Walls? The obstacles standing in the way of the updated sieges, urban warfareTM? Seriously, I loathe how the Game3 is going to trivialise the walls. I want to mount artillery on them and gain access to other besieger repellents.

mightygloin#2446

In this case many other monstrous infantry should get it as well because why not.

Also regular infantry can already break down gates or is it changed?

Phee2

Defending against an Ogre siege would be pretty easy if they didn't have Wallbreaker.

Kill their artillery, even if it means sacrificing a unit or two of light cav or some cheap flying monsters.

Stick some half decent infantry on the walls (nothing crazy; only has to be able to beat Gnoblars).

Send anti-large infantry and missile units to defend the gate against the mass of Ogres trying to push through it. Drop AoE spells to further weaken the bobbed Ogres.

Victory.

With few options for alternative strategies, this is how most Ogre sieges would play out. Victory or defeat would hang on whether the defenders have decent mages and enough anti-large to deal with the Ogres gate assault.

Mr_Finley7#4571

Man, would it really have been that hard to include wall climbing or ladder animations for monstrous infantry?

Pr4vda#6038

Mr_Finley7 said:

Man, would it really have been that hard to include wall climbing or ladder animations for monstrous infantry?

That. I Can understand Kroxigors or Minotaurs to be too dumb or Frenzy to use ladders and go on walls ... But Ogres ?

No point defending the walls against them if they Can insta kill the walls and doors in seconds lol

elkapp

McPhee said:

Defending against an Ogre siege would be pretty easy if they didn't have Wallbreaker.

Kill their artillery, even if it means sacrificing a unit or two of light cav or some cheap flying monsters.

Stick some half decent infantry on the walls (nothing crazy; only has to be able to beat Gnoblars).

Send anti-large infantry and missile units to defend the gate against the mass of Ogres trying to push through it. Drop AoE spells to further weaken the bobbed Ogres.

Victory.

With few options for alternative strategies, this is how most Ogre sieges would play out. Victory or defeat would hang on whether the defenders have decent mages and enough anti-large to deal with the Ogres gate assault.

If the AI (defending against Ogres) is smart enough then they can retreat towards the back of the city where they can abuse chokepoints. Is not like they can be flanked from there (unless if they have like 3 units), nor ogres can "jump" those chokepoints like they can break walls.
The total surface is bigger than that of all gates combined, true, but not by a significant margin.

Pocman#6295

It looks terrible too: they clip with the wall...


They should have gone for wider walls and let them climb on them: maybe add a specific siege engine for them.

cavebear56

Red_Dox said:

Asamu said:

Red_Dox said:

Ushabti has S6
Troll has S5
Treekin has S5
Rat Ogre has S5
Dragon Ogre would be S5 too, but they are Monstrous Beasts not Monstrous Infantry like the rest mentioned here.
Kroxigor has S4
Generic Ogre is S4. The more elite ones (Maneater, characters) have 5.
Fimir Warriors have S4

Kroxigors were S5 on tabletop.

I said I was lazy and just flipped through the rulebook, but there it was listed as 4

Still not in the mood to pick up the Lizard armybook to check if actually 5 there

-----Red Dox

No the poster was correct in 8th edition at least, Kroxigors were strength 5 base (7 with great weapons) and Ushabti had strength 4 base (6 with great weapons).

That said, not as if CA are following TT rules. At best they look at TT stuff as a rough guide towards a design process but not in any way as a "minimum" of how a design will be processed.

General_Hijalti#1213

Remember when 3K showed the first siege battle and the walls were destroyed by 1 artillery volley.


Yet in the game it takes more than that.

Maelas

brago90 said:

Wyvax said:

So, I'm glad to see that Wallbreaker is in the game on giant monsters like the Giant and Stonehorn, but it being on the ogres themselves seems quite excessive. Is this exclusive to the OK or will other monstrous infantry get it as well such as Kroxigors and Trolls? They're already capable of attacking doors which is cool, but smashing down the walls sounds overkill, that's akin to regular infantry chopping down the doors. IMO Wallbreaker only makes sense on very specific units, the most massive and powerful of SEMs (Shaggoths, Dread Saurians, Giants, Mammoths, etc) or on specialist units such as Warp Grinders and Dwarfen Miners.

Honestly it just seems like sieges are just being even more trivialized. There's no reason that monstrous infantry like ogres can't make a big ramp/siege tower to get onto the walls or scale them from the inside.

Ogres can break walls because they cannot scale walls.

Which beg the question, why can weapon teams main walls, but Ogres can't ?

brago90#3911

Maelas said:

brago90 said:

Wyvax said:

So, I'm glad to see that Wallbreaker is in the game on giant monsters like the Giant and Stonehorn, but it being on the ogres themselves seems quite excessive. Is this exclusive to the OK or will other monstrous infantry get it as well such as Kroxigors and Trolls? They're already capable of attacking doors which is cool, but smashing down the walls sounds overkill, that's akin to regular infantry chopping down the doors. IMO Wallbreaker only makes sense on very specific units, the most massive and powerful of SEMs (Shaggoths, Dread Saurians, Giants, Mammoths, etc) or on specialist units such as Warp Grinders and Dwarfen Miners.

Honestly it just seems like sieges are just being even more trivialized. There's no reason that monstrous infantry like ogres can't make a big ramp/siege tower to get onto the walls or scale them from the inside.

Ogres can break walls because they cannot scale walls.

Which beg the question, why can weapon teams main walls, but Ogres can't ?

That is a question for devs not for me.

Otters007#7127

Commissar_G said:

I'd be willing to bet most units with siege attacker have it now.

Except maybe Vlad. But that would look badass and I want it now that I think about it.

Well, Vlad probably does have Ogre tier strength. And if the Ogres have it...

Biggles#4266

Maelas said:

brago90 said:

Wyvax said:

So, I'm glad to see that Wallbreaker is in the game on giant monsters like the Giant and Stonehorn, but it being on the ogres themselves seems quite excessive. Is this exclusive to the OK or will other monstrous infantry get it as well such as Kroxigors and Trolls? They're already capable of attacking doors which is cool, but smashing down the walls sounds overkill, that's akin to regular infantry chopping down the doors. IMO Wallbreaker only makes sense on very specific units, the most massive and powerful of SEMs (Shaggoths, Dread Saurians, Giants, Mammoths, etc) or on specialist units such as Warp Grinders and Dwarfen Miners.

Honestly it just seems like sieges are just being even more trivialized. There's no reason that monstrous infantry like ogres can't make a big ramp/siege tower to get onto the walls or scale them from the inside.

Ogres can break walls because they cannot scale walls.

Which beg the question, why can weapon teams main walls, but Ogres can't ?

They can put their equipment on their back to climb the stairs/ladders.

drogarito#2548

Instead of making some cool siege engines for every race, they will give us ladders, towers, battering rams and stupid deployables. And that wallbreaker skill for most of the units. Just sad.