All Generic Lords & Heroes need unique skills.

Cosmic_Lich#1188

TL;DR:
Title.

Introduction:
All Generic Lords & Heroes need skills unique to that lord or race specific skills. There is a clear disparity between newer and older skill trees. Newer and updated content has fancy skills or even skill paths for generic lords and their LL counterparts that make them unique and thematic for their race. What I have gathered here is a collection of screenshots to compare what are good skill trees and empty skill trees.

Beware, traveler. Lots of screenshots ahead.

The Hunstman General is new and the Archlector received an update to their skill trees giving them thematic skills to either boost their army or the faction at large. The General of the Empire is notably empty by comparison. They have nothing to boost their army that other Empire Lords don't already have and have the same skill tree just like any warrior lord in any race.
Arch Lector:

Hunstman General:

General of the Empire:


Here I am comparing two caster lords. The High Elven Archmage has Archmage specific skills that boost their casting as well as a skill choice, shared with other High Elven Lords, to boost one's army. That god specific skill choice is unique to High Elves and even if others have a similar system it is still thematic with their units and gods.

The Prophetess, on the other hand, has some skills that are shared with the Bretonnian Lord to boost the army. These skills, however, are not unique to Bretonnia as the Virtue of Empathy is the exact same as the VCount Aura of Dark Majesty, Dwarven Brass Lunged, etc. The Basic Training skill is the exact same the Dwarf Obstinacy. The only skills unique to Bretonnian Lords and Prophetesses are the Lionhearted, Aura of the Lady, and Blessing of the Lady skills. Lionhearted is OK, Aura of the Lady is a weak 10% in a small area, and the Blessing of the Lady skill is redundant as Lords have two ways of getting that blessing without wasting a skill point. And Prophetesses should start with the blessing anyway.
Archmage:

Prophetess:


The Wight King, the Empire Captain, the Paladin, and others have the specific role of Melee Specialist and yet compared to newer heroes they have an empty skill tree. Consider the New Dwarven Thane who has three new skill choices that buff their army and themselves in specific ways or the Mourngul Haunter who has 4 skills that buff that hero's melee capabilities. The High Elven Noble has 3 options that buff the diplomacy and income of the whole faction.
Wight King:

Thane (Ignore that it's an ancestor ghost):

Mourngul Haunter:

Noble:


Conclusion:
There are MANY more examples of Lords and Heroes with this specific issue of empty skill trees. Even some WH2 Lords and Heroes. Some Lords & Heroes even have skills that seem unique at first glance, but have the same effect that Lords from other races already have. This issue has gotten better with the reworks. Bretonnia at least has vows. Some Dwarf Lords & Heroes have fun and thematic skills as other races have. Arch Lectors have been updated. Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast don't have this issue at all so this seems to be the new standard for newer races.

I am advocating for CA to keep this issue in mind when reworking and updating older races. Newer skills, as masterfully done with VCoast and Tomb Kings, will improve the game's asymmetry and immersive themes. Paladins should not be the same as Empire Captains. Mage Lords and Warrior Lords should have skills that differentiate them from both other lord types of the same race and other races with the same lord types.

Edit: Separated Archmage & Prophetess paragraphs.
Edit 2: Changed the title a bit.

busbee247#5862

i mean i see nothing wrong with the general of the empire tbh, hes the only one that gets a flying sem mount. the arch lector does need to be nerfed though, like at least make the unique skills not available at level 2

Cosmic_Lich#1188

epic_162578572945FgdWSzp said:

i mean i see nothing wrong with the general of the empire tbh, hes the only one that gets a flying sem mount. the arch lector does need to be nerfed though, like at least make the unique skills not available at level 2

Mounts are not relevant to skill uniqueness. IDK why you would think that. I think the whole mount system for Lords & Heroes needs to be reworked, but that's for another day. Arch Lectors should probably be nerfed. I can agree to that.

busbee247#5862

Cosmic_Lich said:

epic_162578572945FgdWSzp said:

i mean i see nothing wrong with the general of the empire tbh, hes the only one that gets a flying sem mount. the arch lector does need to be nerfed though, like at least make the unique skills not available at level 2

Mounts are not relevant to skill uniqueness. IDK why you would think that. I think the whole mount system for Lords & Heroes needs to be reworked, but that's for another day. Arch Lectors should probably be nerfed. I can agree to that.

what do you mean? with arch lectors you get some hero recruitment, untainted and battle prayers, with huntsmen generals you get some bonus vs large, with empire generals the unique thing is getting flying units something the empire completely lacks without them...

Cosmic_Lich#1188

epic_162578572945FgdWSzp said:

Cosmic_Lich said:

epic_162578572945FgdWSzp said:

i mean i see nothing wrong with the general of the empire tbh, hes the only one that gets a flying sem mount. the arch lector does need to be nerfed though, like at least make the unique skills not available at level 2

Mounts are not relevant to skill uniqueness. IDK why you would think that. I think the whole mount system for Lords & Heroes needs to be reworked, but that's for another day. Arch Lectors should probably be nerfed. I can agree to that.

what do you mean? with arch lectors you get some hero recruitment, untainted and battle prayers, with huntsmen generals you get some bonus vs large, with empire generals the unique thing is getting flying units something the empire completely lacks without them...

I’m just not convinced that any mount is enough. It feels like suggesting that Witch Hunters are less unique because they lack a mount option. Even if I were to grant mounts, then it’s still nothing unique to the Empire.

Szemis#3402

Little side note, I would like to see the Prophetess get a Unicorn mount option too.

Cortes31#6909

Why is everybody talking mounts here? OP has shown a much more important matter here:

The lack of unique skills for many, many lords and heroes!

#568367

Cortes31 said:

Why is everybody talking mounts here? OP has shown a much more important matter here:

The lack of unique skills for many, many lords and heroes!

I'm relatively ok with a very bland generic skill tree for Empire General as long as they're viable


These guys are Ryu. They're there to be generic, for everyone else's craziness to shine up against.


Empire General will get the job done without anything fancy and that's what I like about Empire.

Cosmic_Lich#1188

Cortes31 said:

Why is everybody talking mounts here? OP has shown a much more important matter here:

The lack of unique skills for many, many lords and heroes!

It's an honest point of contention. Mounts are skills, even though they shouldn't be. Even if they weren't skills, they still make Lords & Heroes different from those without certain mounts.

Rob18446

Yeah that sounds good OP, ad you say though it's mostly just difference between updated races and those that aren't, will likely be fixed as the races go through their second round of updates.

Ben1990#8909

Cosmic_Lich said:

TL;DR:
Title.

Introduction:
All Generic Lords & Heroes need skills unique to that lord or race specific skills. There is a clear disparity between newer and older skill trees. Newer and updated content has fancy skills or even skill paths for generic lords and their LL counterparts that make them unique and thematic for their race. What I have gathered here is a collection of screenshots to compare what are good skill trees and empty skill trees.

Beware, traveler. Lots of screenshots ahead.

The Hunstman General is new and the Archlector received an update to their skill trees giving them thematic skills to either boost their army or the faction at large. The General of the Empire is notably empty by comparison. They have nothing to boost their army that other Empire Lords don't already have and have the same skill tree just like any warrior lord in any race.
Arch Lector:

Hunstman General:

General of the Empire:


Here I am comparing two caster lords. The High Elven Archmage has Archmage specific skills that boost their casting as well as a skill choice, shared with other High Elven Lords, to boost one's army. That god specific skill choice is unique to High Elves and even if others have a similar system it is still thematic with their units and gods.

The Prophetess, on the other hand, has some skills that are shared with the Bretonnian Lord to boost the army. These skills, however, are not unique to Bretonnia as the Virtue of Empathy is the exact same as the VCount Aura of Dark Majesty, Dwarven Brass Lunged, etc. The Basic Training skill is the exact same the Dwarf Obstinacy. The only skills unique to Bretonnian Lords and Prophetesses are the Lionhearted, Aura of the Lady, and Blessing of the Lady skills. Lionhearted is OK, Aura of the Lady is a weak 10% in a small area, and the Blessing of the Lady skill is redundant as Lords have two ways of getting that blessing without wasting a skill point. And Prophetesses should start with the blessing anyway.
Archmage:

Prophetess:


The Wight King, the Empire Captain, the Paladin, and others have the specific role of Melee Specialist and yet compared to newer heroes they have an empty skill tree. Consider the New Dwarven Thane who has three new skill choices that buff their army and themselves in specific ways or the Mourngul Haunter who has 4 skills that buff that hero's melee capabilities. The High Elven Noble has 3 options that buff the diplomacy and income of the whole faction.
Wight King:

Thane (Ignore that it's an ancestor ghost):

Mourngul Haunter:

Noble:


Conclusion:
There are MANY more examples of Lords and Heroes with this specific issue of empty skill trees. Even some WH2 Lords and Heroes. Some Lords & Heroes even have skills that seem unique at first glance, but have the same effect that Lords from other races already have. This issue has gotten better with the reworks. Bretonnia at least has vows. Some Dwarf Lords & Heroes have fun and thematic skills as other races have. Arch Lectors have been updated. Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast don't have this issue at all so this seems to be the new standard for newer races.

I am advocating for CA to keep this issue in mind when reworking and updating older races. Newer skills, as masterfully done with VCoast and Tomb Kings, will improve the game's asymmetry and immersive themes. Paladins should not be the same as Empire Captains. Mage Lords and Warrior Lords should have skills that differentiate them from both other lord types of the same race and other races with the same lord types.

Edit: Separated Archmage & Prophetess paragraphs.
Edit 2: Changed the title a bit.

I feel your pain. The Empire General should have at least a couple of skills that would allow him to focus on specific aspects of the Empire's military (like being a master infantry commander, a peerless cavalry commander, a siege specialist, or offense or defense oriented and so on). In case of the Hutsman General he should have one of the blue skills replaced with an ambush increasing one. I could go more with the other characters but it would be too long.

Cosmic_Lich#1188

Ben1990 said:

Cosmic_Lich said:

TL;DR:
Title.

Introduction:
All Generic Lords & Heroes need skills unique to that lord or race specific skills. There is a clear disparity between newer and older skill trees. Newer and updated content has fancy skills or even skill paths for generic lords and their LL counterparts that make them unique and thematic for their race. What I have gathered here is a collection of screenshots to compare what are good skill trees and empty skill trees.

Beware, traveler. Lots of screenshots ahead.

The Hunstman General is new and the Archlector received an update to their skill trees giving them thematic skills to either boost their army or the faction at large. The General of the Empire is notably empty by comparison. They have nothing to boost their army that other Empire Lords don't already have and have the same skill tree just like any warrior lord in any race.
Arch Lector:

Hunstman General:

General of the Empire:


Here I am comparing two caster lords. The High Elven Archmage has Archmage specific skills that boost their casting as well as a skill choice, shared with other High Elven Lords, to boost one's army. That god specific skill choice is unique to High Elves and even if others have a similar system it is still thematic with their units and gods.

The Prophetess, on the other hand, has some skills that are shared with the Bretonnian Lord to boost the army. These skills, however, are not unique to Bretonnia as the Virtue of Empathy is the exact same as the VCount Aura of Dark Majesty, Dwarven Brass Lunged, etc. The Basic Training skill is the exact same the Dwarf Obstinacy. The only skills unique to Bretonnian Lords and Prophetesses are the Lionhearted, Aura of the Lady, and Blessing of the Lady skills. Lionhearted is OK, Aura of the Lady is a weak 10% in a small area, and the Blessing of the Lady skill is redundant as Lords have two ways of getting that blessing without wasting a skill point. And Prophetesses should start with the blessing anyway.
Archmage:

Prophetess:


The Wight King, the Empire Captain, the Paladin, and others have the specific role of Melee Specialist and yet compared to newer heroes they have an empty skill tree. Consider the New Dwarven Thane who has three new skill choices that buff their army and themselves in specific ways or the Mourngul Haunter who has 4 skills that buff that hero's melee capabilities. The High Elven Noble has 3 options that buff the diplomacy and income of the whole faction.
Wight King:

Thane (Ignore that it's an ancestor ghost):

Mourngul Haunter:

Noble:


Conclusion:
There are MANY more examples of Lords and Heroes with this specific issue of empty skill trees. Even some WH2 Lords and Heroes. Some Lords & Heroes even have skills that seem unique at first glance, but have the same effect that Lords from other races already have. This issue has gotten better with the reworks. Bretonnia at least has vows. Some Dwarf Lords & Heroes have fun and thematic skills as other races have. Arch Lectors have been updated. Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast don't have this issue at all so this seems to be the new standard for newer races.

I am advocating for CA to keep this issue in mind when reworking and updating older races. Newer skills, as masterfully done with VCoast and Tomb Kings, will improve the game's asymmetry and immersive themes. Paladins should not be the same as Empire Captains. Mage Lords and Warrior Lords should have skills that differentiate them from both other lord types of the same race and other races with the same lord types.

Edit: Separated Archmage & Prophetess paragraphs.
Edit 2: Changed the title a bit.

I feel your pain. The Empire General should have at least a couple of skills that would allow him to focus on specific aspects of the Empire's military (like being a master infantry commander, a peerless cavalry commander, a siege specialist, or offense or defense oriented and so on). In case of the Hutsman General he should have one of the blue skills replaced with an ambush increasing one. I could go more with the other characters but it would be too long.

My guy. You didn't have to quote the whole post.