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Locking Memnon's unique army behind a horde is a waste.

DruidsbrookDruidsbrook Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 257
My opinion is worth nothing but its so dissapointing to see Memnon be a permanent horde. I was so excited to lead an army with Egyptian and Nubian influences but its trapped behind the whack-a-mole endless tedium of a permanent horde. I thought the beastmen rework signalled the end of this style.

The worst part is unlike the Amazons we dont have a choice of normal faction and horde faction for this culture. Additionally you can probably forget seeing Memnon AI showing up in your games as he will likely get squashed like Penthislea in the opening stages of the game.

It feels like also a disservice to his character as now Memon is being reduced to a savage despoiler destroying everything he comes across while the new Thracian character seems to be a normal empire builder.

Comments

  • ChicoperarioChicoperario Registered Users Posts: 255
    It's really a shame that the AI doesn't know how to play Hordes, but personally the most fun I've had with Troy was with Penthesilea. Empire building is fun, but empire management on late game isnt - it's just the player queueing the same building chain upgrades over and over, until an AI full stack sneaks by and pillages your settlements, erasing 30 turns of development and growth. With Penthe, once you give up on the idea of "raze everything and KEEP IT RAZED", you can move forward south towards the Achean heartlands, slowly building up your horde without looking back. I only really go back and reraze a settlement if it's an AI that I want to eliminate - a homeric faction. If a minor faction resettles it, whatever.

    I was wishing that Memnon would be a hybrid faction, an horde that can temporarily settle, but oh well.
  • toskyruntoskyrun Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 548
    yes I agree, it is a pity that it is only a horde, for me the best thing would have been like the goths in attila, a horde but with the possibility of becoming permanent.
  • DruidsbrookDruidsbrook Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 257
    edited December 2021
    toskyrun said:

    yes I agree, it is a pity that it is only a horde, for me the best thing would have been like the goths in attila, a horde but with the possibility of becoming permanent.

    Yeah I really enjoyed the migration phase of the goths and transition into a kingdom it felt like a journey with a destination.

    With Memnon being the only hero choice for the Aethiopian culture I feel like they should have given some versatility to his campaign options. Let you take him down either the horde path or the empire path they could even tie it into the story, defend Troy or claim new land for the Pharaoh.
  • Toiox43uqToiox43uq Registered Users Posts: 135
    memnon........could have a trigger to create an empire path , maybe after a certain amounts of turns, ie 50 as an example

    where is memnon and the rhesus starting point on the map ?
  • Ulfhedinn_Ulfhedinn_ Registered Users Posts: 237
    I agree that Memnon should have been like the Goths in Attila!
  • ChicoperarioChicoperario Registered Users Posts: 255
    Toiox43uq said:

    memnon........could have a trigger to create an empire path , maybe after a certain amounts of turns, ie 50 as an example

    where is memnon and the rhesus starting point on the map ?

    Memnon starts in one of those islands near Sarpedon. Rhodes I think?

    Rhesus appears in the north, but not the northernmost province I think, 1 or 2 provinces south of the Black Sea.

    What surprises me is that Memnon starts quite close to the Acheans. After you clear Rhodes, you can sail West, go throught Crete (or ignore it), and bam, you're in Sparta already.
  • Ulfhedinn_Ulfhedinn_ Registered Users Posts: 237
    What if Memnon has a mechanic where he is able to conquer cities, but when he leaves, he becomes a nomad again? This would force us to always have a hero fixed in a city. And the number of cities that Memnon could maintain would be extremely limited because of the capacity for heroes he could recruit and also leave "inactive".
  • Toiox43uqToiox43uq Registered Users Posts: 135

    Toiox43uq said:

    memnon........could have a trigger to create an empire path , maybe after a certain amounts of turns, ie 50 as an example

    where is memnon and the rhesus starting point on the map ?

    Memnon starts in one of those islands near Sarpedon. Rhodes I think?

    Rhesus appears in the north, but not the northernmost province I think, 1 or 2 provinces south of the Black Sea.

    What surprises me is that Memnon starts quite close to the Acheans. After you clear Rhodes, you can sail West, go throught Crete (or ignore it), and bam, you're in Sparta already.
    does memnon attack sarpedon or do they start the game as allies ?

    I heard Rhesus starts near a major city in the north and not the furthest north on the black sea ........must be the next one below it ...........he is supposed to unite the thracian and go west along the aegean coast.

    is Rhesus allied to Penti at start of the game ? .................he is Thracian, she is Thracian-Cimmerian
  • ChicoperarioChicoperario Registered Users Posts: 255
    I would think they start with eachother in that "not really allies, but small diplo bonus", like Penthesilea and the Trojans.
  • Ulfhedinn_Ulfhedinn_ Registered Users Posts: 237
    No khopesh infantry in Memnon's roster... :|
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 12,916
    edited December 2021
    Isn't Memnon going to start in Rhodes?

    What will happen to Tlepolemus?
    Shouldn't Rhodes be an Achaean ally since its leader Tlepolemus is an Achaean ally?
  • Dalnar1983Dalnar1983 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 899
    edited December 2021
    Memnom as horde makes perfect sense story-wise. Considering he had huge army that fled after his death. As for his arrival, I think him appearing in the center of asia minor makes most sense, as he supposedly conquered sardis/susa on his way towards Troy, so somewhere between Hector and Amazons. But making him appear on Rhodes does make things easier for the AI.
  • DruidsbrookDruidsbrook Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 257
    edited December 2021

    Memnom as horde makes perfect sense story-wise. Considering he had huge army that fled after his death. As for his arrival, I think him appearing in the center of asia minor makes most sense, as he supposedly conquered sardis/susa on his way towards Troy, so somewhere between Hector and Amazons.

    You can justify it certainly but they did not have to. Achilles would have made sense as a horde but they chose not to for good reason. With the Amazons they made sure to offer a settled version of the faction because of how controversial hordes are. Penthislea made some sense as a horde, she is on a mission of vengence and is ruthless, plus the Scythian inspiration of the Amazons leans to a more nomadic horde.

    Memnon is there to defend Troy and seems noble and a loyal vassal of the great Egyptian empire. So they make him a slobbering horde that destroys everything he touches? Why? Apparently his only goal is to 'destroy the Acheans' so you just made Penthislea again but without the revenge story to justify it.

    There is so many other ways they could have done it, what if Memnon's had limited recruitment from settlements so had to appease the Phararoh by sending him desired resources in exchange for elite units? The Phararoh could also issue missions for Memnon. Capturing and improving ports improves your supply of reinforcements. His army cap could be limited until he performs special missions to reflect his 'far from home' trait and how the army is reliant on him.
  • Dalnar1983Dalnar1983 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 899
    I think making him like Odysseus but not for ports, but for inland/trojan cities in Asia Minor would be my preferred approach instead horde simply for the sake of novelty. He supposedly arrived by land not sea after all.

    I mean he is certainly not there for conquest, so taking cities does not make much sense, but his supposedly huge army should need some logistics backbone.
  • Ulfhedinn_Ulfhedinn_ Registered Users Posts: 237

    I think making him like Odysseus but not for ports, but for inland/trojan cities in Asia Minor would be my preferred approach instead horde simply for the sake of novelty. He supposedly arrived by land not sea after all.

    I mean he is certainly not there for conquest, so taking cities does not make much sense, but his supposedly huge army should need some logistics backbone.

    I agree with that. This would control Memnon's advance and leave him in a much more defensive posture.
  • DruidsbrookDruidsbrook Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 257
    edited December 2021

    I think making him like Odysseus but not for ports, but for inland/trojan cities in Asia Minor would be my preferred approach instead horde simply for the sake of novelty. He supposedly arrived by land not sea after all.

    I mean he is certainly not there for conquest, so taking cities does not make much sense, but his supposedly huge army should need some logistics backbone.

    A lot of characters are not there for conquest most of the Acheans are there by obligation to get Helen back. Only really Agenemenon can be seen as a conquerer but Total War is a sandbox with a loose narrative. This is why there is a 'Homeric Victory' and a 'Total War Victory' It means as Aeneas I can decide that actually I think I'd quite like Troy for myself and betray my allies. The story and motivations are merely a suggestion.

    Memnon and hordes leave little room for fun. Yes you could attack the Trojans but theres basically no gain from it. You cant claim territory or have any meaningful impact on the map, just focus on your mission objectives and stop playing.
  • Toiox43uqToiox43uq Registered Users Posts: 135

    Memnom as horde makes perfect sense story-wise. Considering he had huge army that fled after his death. As for his arrival, I think him appearing in the center of asia minor makes most sense, as he supposedly conquered sardis/susa on his way towards Troy, so somewhere between Hector and Amazons.

    You can justify it certainly but they did not have to. Achilles would have made sense as a horde but they chose not to for good reason. With the Amazons they made sure to offer a settled version of the faction because of how controversial hordes are. Penthislea made some sense as a horde, she is on a mission of vengence and is ruthless, plus the Scythian inspiration of the Amazons leans to a more nomadic horde.

    Memnon is there to defend Troy and seems noble and a loyal vassal of the great Egyptian empire. So they make him a slobbering horde that destroys everything he touches? Why? Apparently his only goal is to 'destroy the Acheans' so you just made Penthislea again but without the revenge story to justify it.

    There is so many other ways they could have done it, what if Memnon's had limited recruitment from settlements so had to appease the Phararoh by sending him desired resources in exchange for elite units? The Phararoh could also issue missions for Memnon. Capturing and improving ports improves your supply of reinforcements. His army cap could be limited until he performs special missions to reflect his 'far from home' trait and how the army is reliant on him.
    as you say......memnon is a vassal of Egypt and most of his army would be paid mercenaries from lands egypt controlled or had influence over .........clearly a reason why, on memnon death, that the army dispersed ( went back home ) ................the game could have made memnon keep one town at a time, when he gains a town he releases the previous one
  • Lotor12Lotor12 Registered Users Posts: 769

    Memnom as horde makes perfect sense story-wise.

    This...

    I think, it would be non-sense to have Memmon as classic settled faction

  • DruidsbrookDruidsbrook Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 257
    Its pretty telling that even in the Warhammer games that have lots of mindless destroyers that fit the horde style its been abandoned, Beastmen got turned into a hybrid faction and the upcoming Khorne faction which is dedicated to war can still take settlements. The 'Warriors of Chaos' faction the last horde in the game has been seen to hold settlements in Warhammer 3 so they are up next.

    Theres no motivation to do anything except the campaign objectives. I've always seen the objectives as advice if you are not sure what to do but as a horde it is an order just raze x amount of settlements (they will all be recolonised instantly but it doesnt matter they were razed at one point) kill this faction and that one, now stop playing.

    Build your own Bronze Age Empire, choose where to invade and expand, do diplomacy, trade, build infrastructure and defend it? Nope just do what the game tells you and quit.

    And yes I am a tad bitter about this haha :(
  • Lotor12Lotor12 Registered Users Posts: 769


    Build your own Bronze Age Empire, choose where to invade and expand, do diplomacy, trade, build infrastructure and defend it? Nope just do what the game tells you and quit.

    For this , we would need new campaign map covering larger area includung Egypt, Babylon etc

    I opened this topic in the past
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/3149182#Comment_3149182
  • DariosDarios Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 571
    I'm OKAY with Memnon being a horde, simply because of how he was associated with Penthesilea during the Trojan War.

    However, hordes do take a lot of fun out of the gameplay as a whole as there's a lot of micromanagement and you're always one major defeat away from losing the campaign. To compensate, the campaigns often become a bit too gimmicky for my taste. I've very rarely encountered AI-controlled Penthesilea in my campaigns.

    I personally would have preferred to see Penthesilea and Memnon as normal factions.
  • DruidsbrookDruidsbrook Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 257
    Darios said:

    I'm OKAY with Memnon being a horde, simply because of how he was associated with Penthesilea during the Trojan War.

    However, hordes do take a lot of fun out of the gameplay as a whole as there's a lot of micromanagement and you're always one major defeat away from losing the campaign. To compensate, the campaigns often become a bit too gimmicky for my taste. I've very rarely encountered AI-controlled Penthesilea in my campaigns.

    I personally would have preferred to see Penthesilea and Memnon as normal factions.

    While I think my dislike of hordes is quite clear at least Penthislea is only one of two heroes belonging to the Amazon culture group so there is still a normal Amazon option with Hippolyta, sure she has some unique units you wont be able to access but most of the roster is there.

    Memnon looks to have the most unique army in the game with units from Egypt, Nubia and the East there are no other heroes from this culture so Memnon is your only option.

    You can forget fighting Memnon in the campaign, hordes have no staying power without absurd cheats (even by AI standards) to keep them alive (The Huns in Attila and Warriors of Chaos in Warhammer)
  • Ulfhedinn_Ulfhedinn_ Registered Users Posts: 237
    Toiox43uq said:

    the game could have made memnon keep one town at a time, when he gains a town he releases the previous one

    Another good option.
  • Toiox43uqToiox43uq Registered Users Posts: 135
    edited December 2021
    Toiox43uq said:

    Toiox43uq said:

    memnon........could have a trigger to create an empire path , maybe after a certain amounts of turns, ie 50 as an example

    where is memnon and the rhesus starting point on the map ?

    Memnon starts in one of those islands near Sarpedon. Rhodes I think?

    Rhesus appears in the north, but not the northernmost province I think, 1 or 2 provinces south of the Black Sea.

    What surprises me is that Memnon starts quite close to the Acheans. After you clear Rhodes, you can sail West, go throught Crete (or ignore it), and bam, you're in Sparta already.
    does memnon attack sarpedon or do they start the game as allies ?

    I heard Rhesus starts near a major city in the north and not the furthest north on the black sea ........must be the next one below it ...........he is supposed to unite the thracian and go west along the aegean coast.

    is Rhesus allied to Penti at start of the game ? .................he is Thracian, she is Thracian-Cimmerian
    checking one of the troy testers site ...........he states Rhesus starts on the ancient strymon river, which in the game sits west of the Thracian Cicones tribes , maybe between the Cicones and the city of Abdera which is no longer Thrace in the game

    but they state on the river Strymon which is next to the city of Galepsos ....but this is not Thrace lands
    Post edited by Toiox43uq on
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