Chaos Ogres - For all gods or just Nurgle?

TheWattman#7460

The Ogres fight for anyone who makes sure to pay them in gold and meat, even the forces of Chaos. There are plenty of instances in the lore where they appear together, but I would like to focus this discussion on the possibilities of getting god-dedicated Ogre infantry further down the line (because clearly none of them are getting them at launch). So here is what we have to go on in the lore, which I will go through in order of likelyness:

1. Tamurkhan's Plague Ogres

Since the confirmation of Plague Toads in the Nurgle starting roster, its safe to say that the entire Throne of Chaos supplement is fair-game content for game 3 additions. This makes the Nurgle-dedicated Plague Ogres the first and foremost candidates when it comes to Ogre additions to the armies of the Daemons in WH3. Monstrous infantry with regeneration, a bit like Trolls but with a good bit more armour, fits right in with Nurgle's theme.

2. Ogre followers of Khorne

As for the other gods beside Nurgle, I would say Khorne would be the one closest to having a specific connection with the Ogres. Now of course, Chaos Ogres are a part of the 8th edition WoC armybook where they can take any mark they want, but if we go back to 7th edition, the relationship to the Blood God is especially emphazised:
"Khorne is the patron of many of these monstrous warriors, for their constant offerings of skulls - generally picked very clean indeed - are pleasing to the Blood God. Some Ogres even go to battle clad in gigantic suits of Chaos Armour, forged by their Chaos Dwarf allies specifically to fit the Ogres' overly muscled frames. A heavily armoured Ogre berserker is a terrifying foe indeed; a whole unit of them is a nigh unstoppable force."
Ogres would fit rather nicely into Khorne's roster as well, being the big lumbering killing machines they are and would form a useful link of mid-sized creatures, along with the Spawns and Minotaurs, inbetween the largely mortal infantry armies Khorne will end up with and their larger Bloodthirster masters.

3. Slaaneshi Ogres
There is atleast one mention of an Ogre dedicated to Slaanesh outside of the armybook marks, which is Jharkill, a Chaos Ogre who served as a hunter/beast-keeper for the Daemon Prince Aggramon, from who Archaon would steal his steed Dhorgar. Jharkill later became Archaon's Beastmaster. Here is his description:
"A massively bloated creature, Jharkill had been gifted with a mutation in form of a second face upon his body that dribbled a black poison. One of his arms was short and atrophied, the other even more muscle-bound. Armed with a great bow made out of ivory, arrows the size of spears and a primitive form of shamanic magic, Jharkill was a formidable fighter."
Would this be a useful addition for the Slaaneshi armies?

4. Ogres of Tzeentch?
Other than the mark options, I personally do not known of any instances in the lore mentioning Ogres dedicated to Tzeentch. Do you guys know any?

What do you think guys? Should Ogres be added to all Chaos armies, or just a few?

Captain_Rex#1635

Plague Ogres for Nurgle



Chaos Ogres for WoC





They are 2 different units just like Bile Trolls and Chaos Trolls.

TheWattman#7460

ArneSo said:

Plague Ogres for Nurgle

Chaos Ogres for WoC

They are 2 different units just like Bile Trolls and Chaos Trolls.

So nothing for Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch?

Captain_Rex#1635

TheWattman said:

ArneSo said:

Plague Ogres for Nurgle

Chaos Ogres for WoC

They are 2 different units just like Bile Trolls and Chaos Trolls.

So nothing for Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch?

Of course not. Why should they get them?

busbee247#5862

no need for chaos ogres for woc, just let them recruit ogre mercs from camps, saves dev time

Captain_Rex#1635

epic_162578572945FgdWSzp said:

no need for chaos ogres for woc, just let them recruit ogre mercs from camps, saves dev time

Ewww no what a terrible idea. Chaos Ogres exist so WoC should get them.

SerPus#7395

ArneSo said:

Why should they get them?

Chaos Ogres could use all four marks.

TheWattman#7460

ArneSo said:

Of course not. Why should they get them?

Why should they not get them? If COs can take all 4 marks, what's there to stop there being Ogres in all four god rosters?

Captain_Rex#1635

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Why should they get them?

Chaos Ogres could use all four marks.

Doesn’t matter, Minotaurs could also have marks of all gods. Giving them to any Mono Race would destroy uniqueness.

Captain_Rex#1635

TheWattman said:

ArneSo said:

Of course not. Why should they get them?

Why should they not get them? If COs can take all 4 marks, what's there to stop there being Ogres in all four god rosters?

Because they don’t fit? Duh

SerPus#7395

ArneSo said:

Doesn’t matter, Minotaurs could also have marks of all gods. Giving them to any Mono Race would destroy uniqueness.

That reminds me of "Tzeentch shouldn't have Chaos Warriors" debates. It's the exact same argument that was used there.

TheWattman#7460

ArneSo said:

Because they don’t fit? Duh

With Tzeentch and Slaanesh I can undestand that. But for Khorne? Think it they fit in rather handsomely in there?

Captain_Rex#1635

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Doesn’t matter, Minotaurs could also have marks of all gods. Giving them to any Mono Race would destroy uniqueness.

That reminds me of "Tzeentch shouldn't have Chaos Warriors" debates. It's the exact same argument that was used there.

Wrong. Chaos Warriors are the essential core of Chaos and marked Warriors are a major part of Monogods.

Chaos Ogres are just a fun side unit like Khorne Minotaurs.

SerPus#7395

ArneSo said:

Wrong. Chaos Warriors are the essential core of Chaos and marked Warriors are a major part of Monogods.

Chaos Ogres are just a fun side unit like Khorne Minotaurs.

Chaos Ogres are an 8th edition army book unit.

Captain_Rex#1635

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Wrong. Chaos Warriors are the essential core of Chaos and marked Warriors are a major part of Monogods.

Chaos Ogres are just a fun side unit like Khorne Minotaurs.

Chaos Ogres are an 8th edition army book unit.

Yes and they should be a unit for WoC.

But let’s not make all monos the same okay? I mean we also don’t give Centigors and Minitaurs to everyone right?

SerPus#7395

ArneSo said:

But let’s not make all monos the same okay?

Ah yes, the same content denial approach again. I can't think of anything worse than that.

mecanojavi99#6562

There should be 5 variants of Chaos Ogres in the game, 4 MonoGod ones (they can take any mark on TT) and 1 undivided for WoC.

mecanojavi99#6562

ArneSo said:

TheWattman said:

ArneSo said:

Of course not. Why should they get them?

Why should they not get them? If COs can take all 4 marks, what's there to stop there being Ogres in all four god rosters?

Because they don’t fit? Duh

Are you telling me that Slaanesh Ogres, dedicated to the Chaos God with an entire circle of his realm dedicated to glutonny, somehow doesn't fit?

mecanojavi99#6562

ArneSo said:

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Wrong. Chaos Warriors are the essential core of Chaos and marked Warriors are a major part of Monogods.

Chaos Ogres are just a fun side unit like Khorne Minotaurs.

Chaos Ogres are an 8th edition army book unit.

Yes and they should be a unit for WoC.

But let’s not make all monos the same okay? I mean we also don’t give Centigors and Minitaurs to everyone right?

By this logic Khorne should be the one with Chaos Warriors, and Tzeentch the only one with Gors.

Spellbound1875#4610

ArneSo said:

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Doesn’t matter, Minotaurs could also have marks of all gods. Giving them to any Mono Race would destroy uniqueness.

That reminds me of "Tzeentch shouldn't have Chaos Warriors" debates. It's the exact same argument that was used there.

Wrong. Chaos Warriors are the essential core of Chaos and marked Warriors are a major part of Monogods.

Chaos Ogres are just a fun side unit like Khorne Minotaurs.

What leads you to draw the line here though? What makes Chaos Warriors more centrally important from a playstyle perspective than Chaos Ogres is both have equal support from the source material by being available in army books.

While everyone would agree that mortals of some kind need to be in every monogod roster you're arguing that chaos warriors the unit are central but chaos ogres are not which is a much more specific claim, and one that seems in tension with itself.

As someone who disagrees with @SerPus almost entirely on what I think should be in the roster they are correct that you're holding a double standard here. If you aren't going by either the army book or an interest in gameplay then it appears you're just going by your personal tastes. Those are fine to have but they aren't a convincing argument.

For the record I don't want Chaos Ogres in any faction. Bile Trolls are cooler while also filling the slot of AP Regenerating Monstrous Infantry for Nurgle, none of the other monogod factions have a particularly compelling connection to Ogres, and WoC already has a lot of monstrous infantry and doesn't need more dedicated units in that class. Ogre Mercenaries are available to the chaos factions so excluding Chaos Ogres don't take much away from the faction in terms of gameplay in campaign or in multiplayer. I'd much prefer unique and interesting units designed to match a factions playstyle.

Captain_Rex#1635

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

But let’s not make all monos the same okay?

Ah yes, the same content denial approach again. I can't think of anything worse than that.

So should all monos also get Centigors and Minotaurs? How about Marauder Horsemen?

Captain_Rex#1635

mecanojavi99 said:

ArneSo said:

TheWattman said:

ArneSo said:

Of course not. Why should they get them?

Why should they not get them? If COs can take all 4 marks, what's there to stop there being Ogres in all four god rosters?

Because they don’t fit? Duh

Are you telling me that Slaanesh Ogres, dedicated to the Chaos God with an entire circle of his realm dedicated to glutonny, somehow doesn't fit?

Slaanesh yes.

Captain_Rex#1635

Spellbound55 said:

ArneSo said:

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Doesn’t matter, Minotaurs could also have marks of all gods. Giving them to any Mono Race would destroy uniqueness.

That reminds me of "Tzeentch shouldn't have Chaos Warriors" debates. It's the exact same argument that was used there.

Wrong. Chaos Warriors are the essential core of Chaos and marked Warriors are a major part of Monogods.

Chaos Ogres are just a fun side unit like Khorne Minotaurs.

What leads you to draw the line here though? What makes Chaos Warriors more centrally important from a playstyle perspective than Chaos Ogres is both have equal support from the source material by being available in army books.

While everyone would agree that mortals of some kind need to be in every monogod roster you're arguing that chaos warriors the unit are central but chaos ogres are not which is a much more specific claim, and one that seems in tension with itself.

As someone who disagrees with @SerPus almost entirely on what I think should be in the roster they are correct that you're holding a double standard here. If you aren't going by either the army book or an interest in gameplay then it appears you're just going by your personal tastes. Those are fine to have but they aren't a convincing argument.

For the record I don't want Chaos Ogres in any faction. Bile Trolls are cooler while also filling the slot of AP Regenerating Monstrous Infantry for Nurgle, none of the other monogod factions have a particularly compelling connection to Ogres, and WoC already has a lot of monstrous infantry and doesn't need more dedicated units in that class. Ogre Mercenaries are available to the chaos factions so excluding Chaos Ogres don't take much away from the faction in terms of gameplay in campaign or in multiplayer. I'd much prefer unique and interesting units designed to match a factions playstyle.

Chaos Warriors are THE most iconic unit in WH. They are the embodiment of Chaos.

Ogres are ogres.

DaGangster#8697

As people said above bile trolls for Nurgle and regular chaos ogres for WoC. Sounds good enough to me.

SerPus#7395

ArneSo said:

So should all monos also get Centigors and Minotaurs?

In the context of WHFB marked Beastmen are obscure enough to not be included in their own army book, so I wouldn't care even if CA ignored them altogether.
Anyway, the point is that there is a difference between (not) wanting something and presenting your personal preferences as facts and viable justification why something should/shouldn't be in the game. Especially in the case where all the options are equally represented in the source material.
So yes, if marked Centigors and Minotaurs are being used then god-aligned races have equal claims to get them, regardless of what my personal preferences are.

Fingolfin_the-Golden#2157

ArneSo said:

Spellbound55 said:

ArneSo said:

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Doesn’t matter, Minotaurs could also have marks of all gods. Giving them to any Mono Race would destroy uniqueness.

That reminds me of "Tzeentch shouldn't have Chaos Warriors" debates. It's the exact same argument that was used there.

Wrong. Chaos Warriors are the essential core of Chaos and marked Warriors are a major part of Monogods.

Chaos Ogres are just a fun side unit like Khorne Minotaurs.

What leads you to draw the line here though? What makes Chaos Warriors more centrally important from a playstyle perspective than Chaos Ogres is both have equal support from the source material by being available in army books.

While everyone would agree that mortals of some kind need to be in every monogod roster you're arguing that chaos warriors the unit are central but chaos ogres are not which is a much more specific claim, and one that seems in tension with itself.

As someone who disagrees with @SerPus almost entirely on what I think should be in the roster they are correct that you're holding a double standard here. If you aren't going by either the army book or an interest in gameplay then it appears you're just going by your personal tastes. Those are fine to have but they aren't a convincing argument.

For the record I don't want Chaos Ogres in any faction. Bile Trolls are cooler while also filling the slot of AP Regenerating Monstrous Infantry for Nurgle, none of the other monogod factions have a particularly compelling connection to Ogres, and WoC already has a lot of monstrous infantry and doesn't need more dedicated units in that class. Ogre Mercenaries are available to the chaos factions so excluding Chaos Ogres don't take much away from the faction in terms of gameplay in campaign or in multiplayer. I'd much prefer unique and interesting units designed to match a factions playstyle.

Chaos Warriors are THE most iconic unit in WH. They are the embodiment of Chaos.

Ogres are ogres.

One of the most iconic units, and we have had them since day one. So all’s well.

Djau#5149

ArneSo said:

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Why should they get them?

Chaos Ogres could use all four marks.

Doesn’t matter, Minotaurs could also have marks of all gods. Giving them to any Mono Race would destroy uniqueness.

I think later editions removed Minotaurs taking Marks apart from Khorne, barring Hero/Lord Minotaurs. Could be wrong tho.

PoorManatee6197#6481

ArneSo said:

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

But let’s not make all monos the same okay?

Ah yes, the same content denial approach again. I can't think of anything worse than that.

So should all monos also get Centigors and Minotaurs? How about Marauder Horsemen?

Yes.

Spellbound1875#4610

ArneSo said:

Spellbound55 said:

ArneSo said:

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Doesn’t matter, Minotaurs could also have marks of all gods. Giving them to any Mono Race would destroy uniqueness.

That reminds me of "Tzeentch shouldn't have Chaos Warriors" debates. It's the exact same argument that was used there.

Wrong. Chaos Warriors are the essential core of Chaos and marked Warriors are a major part of Monogods.

Chaos Ogres are just a fun side unit like Khorne Minotaurs.

What leads you to draw the line here though? What makes Chaos Warriors more centrally important from a playstyle perspective than Chaos Ogres is both have equal support from the source material by being available in army books.

While everyone would agree that mortals of some kind need to be in every monogod roster you're arguing that chaos warriors the unit are central but chaos ogres are not which is a much more specific claim, and one that seems in tension with itself.

As someone who disagrees with @SerPus almost entirely on what I think should be in the roster they are correct that you're holding a double standard here. If you aren't going by either the army book or an interest in gameplay then it appears you're just going by your personal tastes. Those are fine to have but they aren't a convincing argument.

For the record I don't want Chaos Ogres in any faction. Bile Trolls are cooler while also filling the slot of AP Regenerating Monstrous Infantry for Nurgle, none of the other monogod factions have a particularly compelling connection to Ogres, and WoC already has a lot of monstrous infantry and doesn't need more dedicated units in that class. Ogre Mercenaries are available to the chaos factions so excluding Chaos Ogres don't take much away from the faction in terms of gameplay in campaign or in multiplayer. I'd much prefer unique and interesting units designed to match a factions playstyle.

Chaos Warriors are THE most iconic unit in WH. They are the embodiment of Chaos.

Ogres are ogres.

Based on what? Simply saying a thing doesn't make it true and clearly GW even in 8th felt the gods were better represented by special units with unique models above and beyond the mark system.

Skullcrushers and Hellstriders are both specific mortal servants of a god but only Skullcrushers are Warriors in the sense of being drawn from the ranks of chaos warriors rather than simply being in the 8th edition army book. In fact it's fairly easy to read marauders as more clearer Slaaneshi and Warriors as more clearer Khornate if we're only using the 8th edition book.

The idea that line infantry in heavy army of 4 different colors is the "most iconic" thing in chaos (much less the most iconic thing in warhammer) doesn't seem to have a basis beyond your personal tastes. It's not well supported by the text and it involves acting as though the single most diverse faction in warhammer is just dudes in armor.

Again I don't think army books, much less the 8th edition army book, should be the end all be all of what ends up in any faction in Total War Warhammer, but simply rejecting a framework is insufficient to support a position. If your argument comes down solely to "I really like chaos warriors and I don't like chaos Ogres" that's fine but that won't convince people on either side of the "true to tabletop" vs "unique gameplay/unique roster" debate.

Ben1990#8909

TheWattman said:

The Ogres fight for anyone who makes sure to pay them in gold and meat, even the forces of Chaos. There are plenty of instances in the lore where they appear together, but I would like to focus this discussion on the possibilities of getting god-dedicated Ogre infantry further down the line (because clearly none of them are getting them at launch). So here is what we have to go on in the lore, which I will go through in order of likelyness:

1. Tamurkhan's Plague Ogres

Since the confirmation of Plague Toads in the Nurgle starting roster, its safe to say that the entire Throne of Chaos supplement is fair-game content for game 3 additions. This makes the Nurgle-dedicated Plague Ogres the first and foremost candidates when it comes to Ogre additions to the armies of the Daemons in WH3. Monstrous infantry with regeneration, a bit like Trolls but with a good bit more armour, fits right in with Nurgle's theme.

2. Ogre followers of Khorne

As for the other gods beside Nurgle, I would say Khorne would be the one closest to having a specific connection with the Ogres. Now of course, Chaos Ogres are a part of the 8th edition WoC armybook where they can take any mark they want, but if we go back to 7th edition, the relationship to the Blood God is especially emphazised:
"Khorne is the patron of many of these monstrous warriors, for their constant offerings of skulls - generally picked very clean indeed - are pleasing to the Blood God. Some Ogres even go to battle clad in gigantic suits of Chaos Armour, forged by their Chaos Dwarf allies specifically to fit the Ogres' overly muscled frames. A heavily armoured Ogre berserker is a terrifying foe indeed; a whole unit of them is a nigh unstoppable force."
Ogres would fit rather nicely into Khorne's roster as well, being the big lumbering killing machines they are and would form a useful link of mid-sized creatures, along with the Spawns and Minotaurs, inbetween the largely mortal infantry armies Khorne will end up with and their larger Bloodthirster masters.

3. Slaaneshi Ogres
There is atleast one mention of an Ogre dedicated to Slaanesh outside of the armybook marks, which is Jharkill, a Chaos Ogre who served as a hunter/beast-keeper for the Daemon Prince Aggramon, from who Archaon would steal his steed Dhorgar. Jharkill later became Archaon's Beastmaster. Here is his description:
"A massively bloated creature, Jharkill had been gifted with a mutation in form of a second face upon his body that dribbled a black poison. One of his arms was short and atrophied, the other even more muscle-bound. Armed with a great bow made out of ivory, arrows the size of spears and a primitive form of shamanic magic, Jharkill was a formidable fighter."
Would this be a useful addition for the Slaaneshi armies?

4. Ogres of Tzeentch?
Other than the mark options, I personally do not known of any instances in the lore mentioning Ogres dedicated to Tzeentch. Do you guys know any?

What do you think guys? Should Ogres be added to all Chaos armies, or just a few?

Yes. I'd like Chaos Ogres for each monogod faction, as well as for Warriors of Chaos with the addition of an undivided variant like there was in the past. Bonus if each Ogre gets a unique set of traits and abilities on top of unique looks and weapon loadouts.

JToegiTheSnotling#6624

Warriors of Chaos should definitely get them.