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Any chance we will get to see Kurgans, Araby and Nippon?

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  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 6,414
    edited December 2021

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    I like the idea of a Kurgan faction, whether it’s done as a new race or Norsca overall is changed to Northern barbarians as a race and then split by sub factions. The Kurgan have a strong connection to elements of Kislev and could be done in a much different way to Norsca.

    The chances of any of these factions is unknown, as was Cathay.

    Most of the Warriors of Chaos and Marauders are actually Kurgan.

    Kurgan are already in the game.
    A weak argument, similar to the one used against the appearance of Sniktch as a LL.

    A basic set of cavalry units is of little consequence as CA can simply add new elements to them.
    Snikch was necessary if all major Skaven clans were to be represented.

    Vardek Crom could easily lead a Kurgan WoC faction, and nothing would be off.

    Even the Kurgan mammoths are used by the Norscans (which should honestly be called Tribes of Chaos).

    There are also no FW or other models left which are distinctively Kurgan. Even the Vampire Coast and Norsca relied on those.
    The majority of Eshin units were already present and there’s nothing stopping CA to add more and expand the Kurgan race as they did with the equally unlikely Cathay and Kislev.

    As I’ve said the Kurgan can come through a modified Northern Barbarian pack rather than a full on race. Kurgan are a strong narrative enemy to Kislev so it wouldn’t be a shock if they appear. Any counters to Kurgan are countered immediately by past CA decisions.

    To claim to know the mind of CA is dubious at best.
    But Clan Eshin itself wasn't in, yet. While the other major clans except for Moulder (which was quite likely to eventually come) were already there.

    They aren't a subrace or anything, they ARE most of the Warriors of Chaos units and lore.

    This is like argueing how Middenland should be its own race separate from the Empire. Or the Norse Dwarfs.

    There were mostly Clan Eshin units already in the game and that was the argument against them used. The idea that Ppl always thought all the major clans had to be represented by a DLC only came in after Sniktch was announced.

    Again, please stop using existing units as an argument when CA have produced totally new lore and units, it’s rather tiring to go over the same basic points.

    The Kurgan Tribes do not come from Norsca, they have a different culture as described in the lore. Why not say it’s ridiculous to expect Bretonnia as they are human just like Empire. Norsca was created out of WoC LLs so again, this is an empty argument.
    It's not an empty argument.

    I obviously am aware how the Kurgans aren't from Norsca, but the current 'Norsca'-race is the Marauder faction in everything but name. There were even quotes about the Kurgans added to the game 1 loading screens when Norsca launched.

    Kurgans are the go-to recruiting grounds for the Warriors of Chaos, as well. Most of its units are either from the Kurgan, Hung or Norscan tribes. They're basically the same, but with some regional differences too delicate to properly portray in this game (like regional differences between the Empire tags).
    So, it’s ‘the current’ race from game 3 and you’re under the impression it’s impossible that CA’s already read the lore connection between Kurgan and Kislev and have though ‘we cannot possibly expand this narrative through an upgrade for Norsca or a race pack?

    That’s great - but I disagree as I’ve learned the problems of thinking I know the mind of CA.
    'CA can do anything' is not an argument. In your eyes, everything is still possible, even though we now know how the map looks and how ALL of the Kurgan things are merged into the Norscan (marauders of Chaos) roster, and have been for years. The Kurgan have never been a serious minor race contender or anything, they're basically a forum-invention which hasn't even gone viral like the Hobgoblin-idea has (which is just a little bit less ridiculous).

    The Dolgans and some of the Kislevites were the same people many thousands of years ago, yes. But they're bitter enemies now, as the Kislevites obviously fight against the hordes of Chaos. Kislev versus Chaos is already one of the major themes. There's nothing new to this.

    Anyway, have you read Tamurkhan? All of those Kurgans of the Dolgan tribe were either WoC or Norscan units.
    Just having a look were I used ‘CA can do anything’ as an argument. I could’ve sworn I used the argument that narratively the Kurgan and Kislev are connected but sure when under pressure make stuff up.

    This reminds me of the time my arguments about CA wanting to gain on the success of 3K in the Chinese market by looking at Cathay as a similar option. I can’t remember the highly skilled counter to that argument but I’m getting similar vibes here.

    And Norsca used WoC LLs, your point is?
    Pathetic, sorry. You're telling me about the fact I can't know what CA will do (I'm not pretending to), that basically means anything you say could happen 'because I don't know CA's inner-workings'. Me being wrong on Cathay before we basically knew anything doesn't mean all of my comments are baseless and wrong, either. We know the map now. I told the forums back in February how the edges of the map were visible in the cinematic trailer, and that not all of Cathay (and Nippon, Khuresh, Ind, etc.) were probably on the map. And it turns out I was right on that one.

    Nothing is pointing towards the Kurgan as a distinct race, nor would it make any sense if all of their characters will probably come in the Monogod or WoC rosters. Their most distinct centrepiece unit is a Norscan unit, as well. A sixth Chaos race after Monogods and Chaos Dwarfs would be overkill, too.

    Kurgan are part of the Norsemen, together with the Hung and the Norscans. They're featured in the so-called 'Norscan' race, but that's basically the Norsemen-faction in all but name. Even the horsemen have Kurgan/Dolgan descriptions.

    I also doubt the Chinese market being the prime motivator to do Cathay.
  • Stacks_LeeStacks_Lee Registered Users Posts: 362


    There was no official art to the Cathayan culture and CA changed the look of Kislev.

    Right, and they both still had historical analogs for artistic direction.

    There is examples of art direction to the Kurgan and they don’t have the ‘Viking look’ of the region called Norsca (Norse-Ca).

    Norscans themselves don't even look like Vikings by and large. Chaos tribesmen just look like Chaos tribesmen. Even in Liber Chaotica where an attempt is made to put a spotlight on each tribe with their own illustrations... they all end up looking the exact same.
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 6,414
    edited December 2021
    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Thorgar_the_Blooded_One

    A Champion of the Khazags, a Kurgan tribe. Featured in Mark of Chaos.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,225
    edited December 2021
    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    I like the idea of a Kurgan faction, whether it’s done as a new race or Norsca overall is changed to Northern barbarians as a race and then split by sub factions. The Kurgan have a strong connection to elements of Kislev and could be done in a much different way to Norsca.

    The chances of any of these factions is unknown, as was Cathay.

    Most of the Warriors of Chaos and Marauders are actually Kurgan.

    Kurgan are already in the game.
    A weak argument, similar to the one used against the appearance of Sniktch as a LL.

    A basic set of cavalry units is of little consequence as CA can simply add new elements to them.
    Snikch was necessary if all major Skaven clans were to be represented.

    Vardek Crom could easily lead a Kurgan WoC faction, and nothing would be off.

    Even the Kurgan mammoths are used by the Norscans (which should honestly be called Tribes of Chaos).

    There are also no FW or other models left which are distinctively Kurgan. Even the Vampire Coast and Norsca relied on those.
    The majority of Eshin units were already present and there’s nothing stopping CA to add more and expand the Kurgan race as they did with the equally unlikely Cathay and Kislev.

    As I’ve said the Kurgan can come through a modified Northern Barbarian pack rather than a full on race. Kurgan are a strong narrative enemy to Kislev so it wouldn’t be a shock if they appear. Any counters to Kurgan are countered immediately by past CA decisions.

    To claim to know the mind of CA is dubious at best.
    But Clan Eshin itself wasn't in, yet. While the other major clans except for Moulder (which was quite likely to eventually come) were already there.

    They aren't a subrace or anything, they ARE most of the Warriors of Chaos units and lore.

    This is like argueing how Middenland should be its own race separate from the Empire. Or the Norse Dwarfs.

    There were mostly Clan Eshin units already in the game and that was the argument against them used. The idea that Ppl always thought all the major clans had to be represented by a DLC only came in after Sniktch was announced.

    Again, please stop using existing units as an argument when CA have produced totally new lore and units, it’s rather tiring to go over the same basic points.

    The Kurgan Tribes do not come from Norsca, they have a different culture as described in the lore. Why not say it’s ridiculous to expect Bretonnia as they are human just like Empire. Norsca was created out of WoC LLs so again, this is an empty argument.
    It's not an empty argument.

    I obviously am aware how the Kurgans aren't from Norsca, but the current 'Norsca'-race is the Marauder faction in everything but name. There were even quotes about the Kurgans added to the game 1 loading screens when Norsca launched.

    Kurgans are the go-to recruiting grounds for the Warriors of Chaos, as well. Most of its units are either from the Kurgan, Hung or Norscan tribes. They're basically the same, but with some regional differences too delicate to properly portray in this game (like regional differences between the Empire tags).
    So, it’s ‘the current’ race from game 3 and you’re under the impression it’s impossible that CA’s already read the lore connection between Kurgan and Kislev and have though ‘we cannot possibly expand this narrative through an upgrade for Norsca or a race pack?

    That’s great - but I disagree as I’ve learned the problems of thinking I know the mind of CA.
    'CA can do anything' is not an argument. In your eyes, everything is still possible, even though we now know how the map looks and how ALL of the Kurgan things are merged into the Norscan (marauders of Chaos) roster, and have been for years. The Kurgan have never been a serious minor race contender or anything, they're basically a forum-invention which hasn't even gone viral like the Hobgoblin-idea has (which is just a little bit less ridiculous).

    The Dolgans and some of the Kislevites were the same people many thousands of years ago, yes. But they're bitter enemies now, as the Kislevites obviously fight against the hordes of Chaos. Kislev versus Chaos is already one of the major themes. There's nothing new to this.

    Anyway, have you read Tamurkhan? All of those Kurgans of the Dolgan tribe were either WoC or Norscan units.
    Just having a look were I used ‘CA can do anything’ as an argument. I could’ve sworn I used the argument that narratively the Kurgan and Kislev are connected but sure when under pressure make stuff up.

    This reminds me of the time my arguments about CA wanting to gain on the success of 3K in the Chinese market by looking at Cathay as a similar option. I can’t remember the highly skilled counter to that argument but I’m getting similar vibes here.

    And Norsca used WoC LLs, your point is?
    Pathetic, sorry. You're telling me about the fact I can't know what CA will do (I'm not pretending to), that basically means anything you say could happen 'because I don't know CA's inner-workings'. Me being wrong on Cathay before we basically knew anything doesn't mean all of my comments are baseless and wrong, either. We know the map now. I told the forums back in February how the edges of the map were visible in the cinematic trailer, and that not all of Cathay (and Nippon, Khuresh, Ind, etc.) were probably on the map. And it turns out I was right on that one.

    Nothing is pointing towards the Kurgan as a distinct race, nor would it make any sense if all of their characters will probably come in the Monogod or WoC rosters. Their most distinct centrepiece unit is a Norscan unit, as well. A sixth Chaos race after Monogods and Chaos Dwarfs would be overkill, too.

    Kurgan are part of the Norsemen, together with the Hung and the Norscans. They're featured in the so-called 'Norscan' race, but that's basically the Norsemen-faction in all but name. Even the horsemen have Kurgan/Dolgan descriptions.

    I also doubt the Chinese market being the prime motivator to do Cathay.
    The pathetic part for me is a guy who never learns from his day one week one mistakes. ‘I JungleElf know what CA will and won’t include due to my psychic abilities’ proven so well with your guesswork on Cathay. While I on the other hand keeps an open mind on the remaining factions (those footnote factions? Heard that one before) is made out to be the unreasonable one.. you are funny.

    The Chinese market had little to do with it? Hahaha.

    Well give us some other reasons.. the need for 2 major good guys.. I said that as well 😉


    There was no official art to the Cathayan culture and CA changed the look of Kislev.

    Right, and they both still had historical analogs for artistic direction.

    There is examples of art direction to the Kurgan and they don’t have the ‘Viking look’ of the region called Norsca (Norse-Ca).

    Norscans themselves don't even look like Vikings by and large. Chaos tribesmen just look like Chaos tribesmen. Even in Liber Chaotica where an attempt is made to put a spotlight on each tribe with their own illustrations... they all end up looking the exact same.
    So? What historical analogues did Skaven, HE, DE have? Is this the new baseless fashionable argument? All new possible factions must have a historical monologue? I simply don’t accept your premise.

    The Norscana have mini looking Besetkers in their light infantry while they use Chais models to save money.

    Now, could CA use a Cavalry heavy with unique Kurgan based units backed up by general Chaos troops to further the narrative between Kislev’s fiercest foe? I personally think there’s a reasonable chance and nothing that’s been said makes me think any different.
  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 6,414
    edited December 2021

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    I like the idea of a Kurgan faction, whether it’s done as a new race or Norsca overall is changed to Northern barbarians as a race and then split by sub factions. The Kurgan have a strong connection to elements of Kislev and could be done in a much different way to Norsca.

    The chances of any of these factions is unknown, as was Cathay.

    Most of the Warriors of Chaos and Marauders are actually Kurgan.

    Kurgan are already in the game.
    A weak argument, similar to the one used against the appearance of Sniktch as a LL.

    A basic set of cavalry units is of little consequence as CA can simply add new elements to them.
    Snikch was necessary if all major Skaven clans were to be represented.

    Vardek Crom could easily lead a Kurgan WoC faction, and nothing would be off.

    Even the Kurgan mammoths are used by the Norscans (which should honestly be called Tribes of Chaos).

    There are also no FW or other models left which are distinctively Kurgan. Even the Vampire Coast and Norsca relied on those.
    The majority of Eshin units were already present and there’s nothing stopping CA to add more and expand the Kurgan race as they did with the equally unlikely Cathay and Kislev.

    As I’ve said the Kurgan can come through a modified Northern Barbarian pack rather than a full on race. Kurgan are a strong narrative enemy to Kislev so it wouldn’t be a shock if they appear. Any counters to Kurgan are countered immediately by past CA decisions.

    To claim to know the mind of CA is dubious at best.
    But Clan Eshin itself wasn't in, yet. While the other major clans except for Moulder (which was quite likely to eventually come) were already there.

    They aren't a subrace or anything, they ARE most of the Warriors of Chaos units and lore.

    This is like argueing how Middenland should be its own race separate from the Empire. Or the Norse Dwarfs.

    There were mostly Clan Eshin units already in the game and that was the argument against them used. The idea that Ppl always thought all the major clans had to be represented by a DLC only came in after Sniktch was announced.

    Again, please stop using existing units as an argument when CA have produced totally new lore and units, it’s rather tiring to go over the same basic points.

    The Kurgan Tribes do not come from Norsca, they have a different culture as described in the lore. Why not say it’s ridiculous to expect Bretonnia as they are human just like Empire. Norsca was created out of WoC LLs so again, this is an empty argument.
    It's not an empty argument.

    I obviously am aware how the Kurgans aren't from Norsca, but the current 'Norsca'-race is the Marauder faction in everything but name. There were even quotes about the Kurgans added to the game 1 loading screens when Norsca launched.

    Kurgans are the go-to recruiting grounds for the Warriors of Chaos, as well. Most of its units are either from the Kurgan, Hung or Norscan tribes. They're basically the same, but with some regional differences too delicate to properly portray in this game (like regional differences between the Empire tags).
    So, it’s ‘the current’ race from game 3 and you’re under the impression it’s impossible that CA’s already read the lore connection between Kurgan and Kislev and have though ‘we cannot possibly expand this narrative through an upgrade for Norsca or a race pack?

    That’s great - but I disagree as I’ve learned the problems of thinking I know the mind of CA.
    'CA can do anything' is not an argument. In your eyes, everything is still possible, even though we now know how the map looks and how ALL of the Kurgan things are merged into the Norscan (marauders of Chaos) roster, and have been for years. The Kurgan have never been a serious minor race contender or anything, they're basically a forum-invention which hasn't even gone viral like the Hobgoblin-idea has (which is just a little bit less ridiculous).

    The Dolgans and some of the Kislevites were the same people many thousands of years ago, yes. But they're bitter enemies now, as the Kislevites obviously fight against the hordes of Chaos. Kislev versus Chaos is already one of the major themes. There's nothing new to this.

    Anyway, have you read Tamurkhan? All of those Kurgans of the Dolgan tribe were either WoC or Norscan units.
    Just having a look were I used ‘CA can do anything’ as an argument. I could’ve sworn I used the argument that narratively the Kurgan and Kislev are connected but sure when under pressure make stuff up.

    This reminds me of the time my arguments about CA wanting to gain on the success of 3K in the Chinese market by looking at Cathay as a similar option. I can’t remember the highly skilled counter to that argument but I’m getting similar vibes here.

    And Norsca used WoC LLs, your point is?
    Pathetic, sorry. You're telling me about the fact I can't know what CA will do (I'm not pretending to), that basically means anything you say could happen 'because I don't know CA's inner-workings'. Me being wrong on Cathay before we basically knew anything doesn't mean all of my comments are baseless and wrong, either. We know the map now. I told the forums back in February how the edges of the map were visible in the cinematic trailer, and that not all of Cathay (and Nippon, Khuresh, Ind, etc.) were probably on the map. And it turns out I was right on that one.

    Nothing is pointing towards the Kurgan as a distinct race, nor would it make any sense if all of their characters will probably come in the Monogod or WoC rosters. Their most distinct centrepiece unit is a Norscan unit, as well. A sixth Chaos race after Monogods and Chaos Dwarfs would be overkill, too.

    Kurgan are part of the Norsemen, together with the Hung and the Norscans. They're featured in the so-called 'Norscan' race, but that's basically the Norsemen-faction in all but name. Even the horsemen have Kurgan/Dolgan descriptions.

    I also doubt the Chinese market being the prime motivator to do Cathay.
    The pathetic part for me is a guy who never learns from his day one week one mistakes. ‘I JungleElf know what CA will and won’t include due to my psychic abilities’ proven so well with your guesswork on Cathay. While I on the other hand keeps an open mind on the remaining factions (those footnote factions? Heard that one before) is made out to be the unreasonable one.. you are funny.


    There was no official art to the Cathayan culture and CA changed the look of Kislev.

    Right, and they both still had historical analogs for artistic direction.

    There is examples of art direction to the Kurgan and they don’t have the ‘Viking look’ of the region called Norsca (Norse-Ca).

    Norscans themselves don't even look like Vikings by and large. Chaos tribesmen just look like Chaos tribesmen. Even in Liber Chaotica where an attempt is made to put a spotlight on each tribe with their own illustrations... they all end up looking the exact same.
    So? What historical analogues did Skaven, HE, DE have? Is this the new baseless fashionable argument? All new possible factions must have a historical monologue? I simply don’t accept your premise.

    The Norscana have mini looking Besetkers in their light infantry while they use Chais models to save money.

    Now, could CA use a Cavalry heavy with unique Kurgan based units backed up by general Chaos troops to further the narrative between Kislev’s fiercest foe? I personally think there’s a reasonable chance and nothing that’s been said makes me think any different.
    The Kurgan-case isn't at all comparable to Cathay, is all I'm trying to point out to you. As the Kurgans are already established in a lot of (visual) material and are already parts of the WoC and 'Norscan' rosters.

    You're bashing me, not the points I'm making.

    Crom or Sayl could definitely come, but more than likely as a part of the Norscan or WoC rosters (together with a rework).
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,225
    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    I like the idea of a Kurgan faction, whether it’s done as a new race or Norsca overall is changed to Northern barbarians as a race and then split by sub factions. The Kurgan have a strong connection to elements of Kislev and could be done in a much different way to Norsca.

    The chances of any of these factions is unknown, as was Cathay.

    Most of the Warriors of Chaos and Marauders are actually Kurgan.

    Kurgan are already in the game.
    A weak argument, similar to the one used against the appearance of Sniktch as a LL.

    A basic set of cavalry units is of little consequence as CA can simply add new elements to them.
    Snikch was necessary if all major Skaven clans were to be represented.

    Vardek Crom could easily lead a Kurgan WoC faction, and nothing would be off.

    Even the Kurgan mammoths are used by the Norscans (which should honestly be called Tribes of Chaos).

    There are also no FW or other models left which are distinctively Kurgan. Even the Vampire Coast and Norsca relied on those.
    The majority of Eshin units were already present and there’s nothing stopping CA to add more and expand the Kurgan race as they did with the equally unlikely Cathay and Kislev.

    As I’ve said the Kurgan can come through a modified Northern Barbarian pack rather than a full on race. Kurgan are a strong narrative enemy to Kislev so it wouldn’t be a shock if they appear. Any counters to Kurgan are countered immediately by past CA decisions.

    To claim to know the mind of CA is dubious at best.
    But Clan Eshin itself wasn't in, yet. While the other major clans except for Moulder (which was quite likely to eventually come) were already there.

    They aren't a subrace or anything, they ARE most of the Warriors of Chaos units and lore.

    This is like argueing how Middenland should be its own race separate from the Empire. Or the Norse Dwarfs.

    There were mostly Clan Eshin units already in the game and that was the argument against them used. The idea that Ppl always thought all the major clans had to be represented by a DLC only came in after Sniktch was announced.

    Again, please stop using existing units as an argument when CA have produced totally new lore and units, it’s rather tiring to go over the same basic points.

    The Kurgan Tribes do not come from Norsca, they have a different culture as described in the lore. Why not say it’s ridiculous to expect Bretonnia as they are human just like Empire. Norsca was created out of WoC LLs so again, this is an empty argument.
    It's not an empty argument.

    I obviously am aware how the Kurgans aren't from Norsca, but the current 'Norsca'-race is the Marauder faction in everything but name. There were even quotes about the Kurgans added to the game 1 loading screens when Norsca launched.

    Kurgans are the go-to recruiting grounds for the Warriors of Chaos, as well. Most of its units are either from the Kurgan, Hung or Norscan tribes. They're basically the same, but with some regional differences too delicate to properly portray in this game (like regional differences between the Empire tags).
    So, it’s ‘the current’ race from game 3 and you’re under the impression it’s impossible that CA’s already read the lore connection between Kurgan and Kislev and have though ‘we cannot possibly expand this narrative through an upgrade for Norsca or a race pack?

    That’s great - but I disagree as I’ve learned the problems of thinking I know the mind of CA.
    'CA can do anything' is not an argument. In your eyes, everything is still possible, even though we now know how the map looks and how ALL of the Kurgan things are merged into the Norscan (marauders of Chaos) roster, and have been for years. The Kurgan have never been a serious minor race contender or anything, they're basically a forum-invention which hasn't even gone viral like the Hobgoblin-idea has (which is just a little bit less ridiculous).

    The Dolgans and some of the Kislevites were the same people many thousands of years ago, yes. But they're bitter enemies now, as the Kislevites obviously fight against the hordes of Chaos. Kislev versus Chaos is already one of the major themes. There's nothing new to this.

    Anyway, have you read Tamurkhan? All of those Kurgans of the Dolgan tribe were either WoC or Norscan units.
    Just having a look were I used ‘CA can do anything’ as an argument. I could’ve sworn I used the argument that narratively the Kurgan and Kislev are connected but sure when under pressure make stuff up.

    This reminds me of the time my arguments about CA wanting to gain on the success of 3K in the Chinese market by looking at Cathay as a similar option. I can’t remember the highly skilled counter to that argument but I’m getting similar vibes here.

    And Norsca used WoC LLs, your point is?
    Pathetic, sorry. You're telling me about the fact I can't know what CA will do (I'm not pretending to), that basically means anything you say could happen 'because I don't know CA's inner-workings'. Me being wrong on Cathay before we basically knew anything doesn't mean all of my comments are baseless and wrong, either. We know the map now. I told the forums back in February how the edges of the map were visible in the cinematic trailer, and that not all of Cathay (and Nippon, Khuresh, Ind, etc.) were probably on the map. And it turns out I was right on that one.

    Nothing is pointing towards the Kurgan as a distinct race, nor would it make any sense if all of their characters will probably come in the Monogod or WoC rosters. Their most distinct centrepiece unit is a Norscan unit, as well. A sixth Chaos race after Monogods and Chaos Dwarfs would be overkill, too.

    Kurgan are part of the Norsemen, together with the Hung and the Norscans. They're featured in the so-called 'Norscan' race, but that's basically the Norsemen-faction in all but name. Even the horsemen have Kurgan/Dolgan descriptions.

    I also doubt the Chinese market being the prime motivator to do Cathay.
    The pathetic part for me is a guy who never learns from his day one week one mistakes. ‘I JungleElf know what CA will and won’t include due to my psychic abilities’ proven so well with your guesswork on Cathay. While I on the other hand keeps an open mind on the remaining factions (those footnote factions? Heard that one before) is made out to be the unreasonable one.. you are funny.


    There was no official art to the Cathayan culture and CA changed the look of Kislev.

    Right, and they both still had historical analogs for artistic direction.

    There is examples of art direction to the Kurgan and they don’t have the ‘Viking look’ of the region called Norsca (Norse-Ca).

    Norscans themselves don't even look like Vikings by and large. Chaos tribesmen just look like Chaos tribesmen. Even in Liber Chaotica where an attempt is made to put a spotlight on each tribe with their own illustrations... they all end up looking the exact same.
    So? What historical analogues did Skaven, HE, DE have? Is this the new baseless fashionable argument? All new possible factions must have a historical monologue? I simply don’t accept your premise.

    The Norscana have mini looking Besetkers in their light infantry while they use Chais models to save money.

    Now, could CA use a Cavalry heavy with unique Kurgan based units backed up by general Chaos troops to further the narrative between Kislev’s fiercest foe? I personally think there’s a reasonable chance and nothing that’s been said makes me think any different.
    The Kurgan-case isn't at all comparable to Cathay, is all I'm trying to point out to you. As the Kurgans are already established in a lot of (visual) material and are already parts of the WoC and 'Norscan' rosters.

    You're bashing me, not the points I'm making.

    Crom or Sayl could definitely come, but more than likely as a part of the Norscan or WoC rosters (together with a rework).
    And I’m pointing out that none of that matters. According to you there was no chance Cathay could be part of game 3 because you put far too much weight into your guesswork.

    I can already hear your anti Norsca arguments, barbarians are already present; there are no LLs ( no you can’t use Chaos LLs) as they will be part of Chaos.

    Is it impossible that CA will use Chaos factions until they add more detail? A Lord pack between Kurgan and Kislev which plays on the narrative between them? Of course, you’d say impossible but again, these absolutes do nothing for me.

    You will always be more close minded than me and in some cases this maybe correct but in others (Cathay) you will be wrong. Try to accept this and stop being so confident in your tea leaf reading.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 34,458
    I've checked and the answer is still no.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

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  • JungleElfJungleElf Registered Users Posts: 6,414

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    I like the idea of a Kurgan faction, whether it’s done as a new race or Norsca overall is changed to Northern barbarians as a race and then split by sub factions. The Kurgan have a strong connection to elements of Kislev and could be done in a much different way to Norsca.

    The chances of any of these factions is unknown, as was Cathay.

    Most of the Warriors of Chaos and Marauders are actually Kurgan.

    Kurgan are already in the game.
    A weak argument, similar to the one used against the appearance of Sniktch as a LL.

    A basic set of cavalry units is of little consequence as CA can simply add new elements to them.
    Snikch was necessary if all major Skaven clans were to be represented.

    Vardek Crom could easily lead a Kurgan WoC faction, and nothing would be off.

    Even the Kurgan mammoths are used by the Norscans (which should honestly be called Tribes of Chaos).

    There are also no FW or other models left which are distinctively Kurgan. Even the Vampire Coast and Norsca relied on those.
    The majority of Eshin units were already present and there’s nothing stopping CA to add more and expand the Kurgan race as they did with the equally unlikely Cathay and Kislev.

    As I’ve said the Kurgan can come through a modified Northern Barbarian pack rather than a full on race. Kurgan are a strong narrative enemy to Kislev so it wouldn’t be a shock if they appear. Any counters to Kurgan are countered immediately by past CA decisions.

    To claim to know the mind of CA is dubious at best.
    But Clan Eshin itself wasn't in, yet. While the other major clans except for Moulder (which was quite likely to eventually come) were already there.

    They aren't a subrace or anything, they ARE most of the Warriors of Chaos units and lore.

    This is like argueing how Middenland should be its own race separate from the Empire. Or the Norse Dwarfs.

    There were mostly Clan Eshin units already in the game and that was the argument against them used. The idea that Ppl always thought all the major clans had to be represented by a DLC only came in after Sniktch was announced.

    Again, please stop using existing units as an argument when CA have produced totally new lore and units, it’s rather tiring to go over the same basic points.

    The Kurgan Tribes do not come from Norsca, they have a different culture as described in the lore. Why not say it’s ridiculous to expect Bretonnia as they are human just like Empire. Norsca was created out of WoC LLs so again, this is an empty argument.
    It's not an empty argument.

    I obviously am aware how the Kurgans aren't from Norsca, but the current 'Norsca'-race is the Marauder faction in everything but name. There were even quotes about the Kurgans added to the game 1 loading screens when Norsca launched.

    Kurgans are the go-to recruiting grounds for the Warriors of Chaos, as well. Most of its units are either from the Kurgan, Hung or Norscan tribes. They're basically the same, but with some regional differences too delicate to properly portray in this game (like regional differences between the Empire tags).
    So, it’s ‘the current’ race from game 3 and you’re under the impression it’s impossible that CA’s already read the lore connection between Kurgan and Kislev and have though ‘we cannot possibly expand this narrative through an upgrade for Norsca or a race pack?

    That’s great - but I disagree as I’ve learned the problems of thinking I know the mind of CA.
    'CA can do anything' is not an argument. In your eyes, everything is still possible, even though we now know how the map looks and how ALL of the Kurgan things are merged into the Norscan (marauders of Chaos) roster, and have been for years. The Kurgan have never been a serious minor race contender or anything, they're basically a forum-invention which hasn't even gone viral like the Hobgoblin-idea has (which is just a little bit less ridiculous).

    The Dolgans and some of the Kislevites were the same people many thousands of years ago, yes. But they're bitter enemies now, as the Kislevites obviously fight against the hordes of Chaos. Kislev versus Chaos is already one of the major themes. There's nothing new to this.

    Anyway, have you read Tamurkhan? All of those Kurgans of the Dolgan tribe were either WoC or Norscan units.
    Just having a look were I used ‘CA can do anything’ as an argument. I could’ve sworn I used the argument that narratively the Kurgan and Kislev are connected but sure when under pressure make stuff up.

    This reminds me of the time my arguments about CA wanting to gain on the success of 3K in the Chinese market by looking at Cathay as a similar option. I can’t remember the highly skilled counter to that argument but I’m getting similar vibes here.

    And Norsca used WoC LLs, your point is?
    Pathetic, sorry. You're telling me about the fact I can't know what CA will do (I'm not pretending to), that basically means anything you say could happen 'because I don't know CA's inner-workings'. Me being wrong on Cathay before we basically knew anything doesn't mean all of my comments are baseless and wrong, either. We know the map now. I told the forums back in February how the edges of the map were visible in the cinematic trailer, and that not all of Cathay (and Nippon, Khuresh, Ind, etc.) were probably on the map. And it turns out I was right on that one.

    Nothing is pointing towards the Kurgan as a distinct race, nor would it make any sense if all of their characters will probably come in the Monogod or WoC rosters. Their most distinct centrepiece unit is a Norscan unit, as well. A sixth Chaos race after Monogods and Chaos Dwarfs would be overkill, too.

    Kurgan are part of the Norsemen, together with the Hung and the Norscans. They're featured in the so-called 'Norscan' race, but that's basically the Norsemen-faction in all but name. Even the horsemen have Kurgan/Dolgan descriptions.

    I also doubt the Chinese market being the prime motivator to do Cathay.
    The pathetic part for me is a guy who never learns from his day one week one mistakes. ‘I JungleElf know what CA will and won’t include due to my psychic abilities’ proven so well with your guesswork on Cathay. While I on the other hand keeps an open mind on the remaining factions (those footnote factions? Heard that one before) is made out to be the unreasonable one.. you are funny.


    There was no official art to the Cathayan culture and CA changed the look of Kislev.

    Right, and they both still had historical analogs for artistic direction.

    There is examples of art direction to the Kurgan and they don’t have the ‘Viking look’ of the region called Norsca (Norse-Ca).

    Norscans themselves don't even look like Vikings by and large. Chaos tribesmen just look like Chaos tribesmen. Even in Liber Chaotica where an attempt is made to put a spotlight on each tribe with their own illustrations... they all end up looking the exact same.
    So? What historical analogues did Skaven, HE, DE have? Is this the new baseless fashionable argument? All new possible factions must have a historical monologue? I simply don’t accept your premise.

    The Norscana have mini looking Besetkers in their light infantry while they use Chais models to save money.

    Now, could CA use a Cavalry heavy with unique Kurgan based units backed up by general Chaos troops to further the narrative between Kislev’s fiercest foe? I personally think there’s a reasonable chance and nothing that’s been said makes me think any different.
    The Kurgan-case isn't at all comparable to Cathay, is all I'm trying to point out to you. As the Kurgans are already established in a lot of (visual) material and are already parts of the WoC and 'Norscan' rosters.

    You're bashing me, not the points I'm making.

    Crom or Sayl could definitely come, but more than likely as a part of the Norscan or WoC rosters (together with a rework).
    And I’m pointing out that none of that matters. According to you there was no chance Cathay could be part of game 3 because you put far too much weight into your guesswork.

    I can already hear your anti Norsca arguments, barbarians are already present; there are no LLs ( no you can’t use Chaos LLs) as they will be part of Chaos.

    Is it impossible that CA will use Chaos factions until they add more detail? A Lord pack between Kurgan and Kislev which plays on the narrative between them? Of course, you’d say impossible but again, these absolutes do nothing for me.

    You will always be more close minded than me and in some cases this maybe correct but in others (Cathay) you will be wrong. Try to accept this and stop being so confident in your tea leaf reading.
    I definitely think a Kurgan (either WoC or Norscan race) versus Kislev Lord Pack (or any other combination) could happen.

    But a Kurgan race? That one is already there.
  • Stacks_LeeStacks_Lee Registered Users Posts: 362



    So? What historical analogues did Skaven, HE, DE have? Is this the new baseless fashionable argument? All new possible factions must have a historical monologue? I simply don’t accept your premise.

    I'm talking about using historical analogues for a basis for developing a race's culture, roster, art direction etc. All of the human races in Warhammer tend to rely on them. The historical inspirations for the Chaos tribes are all very surface-level, leading to them being undercooked and samey.

    The Norscana have mini looking Besetkers in their light infantry while they use Chais models to save money.

    It wouldn't be very exciting for them to do it again with Kurgans.

    Now, could CA use a Cavalry heavy with unique Kurgan based units backed up by general Chaos troops to further the narrative between Kislev’s fiercest foe? I personally think there’s a reasonable chance and nothing that’s been said makes me think any different.

    We have literal demon armies on the map, along with full-fledged Chaos Warrior hordes. Kislev is already contending with fiercer foes than some off-brand barbarians.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,225
    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    JungleElf said:

    I like the idea of a Kurgan faction, whether it’s done as a new race or Norsca overall is changed to Northern barbarians as a race and then split by sub factions. The Kurgan have a strong connection to elements of Kislev and could be done in a much different way to Norsca.

    The chances of any of these factions is unknown, as was Cathay.

    Most of the Warriors of Chaos and Marauders are actually Kurgan.

    Kurgan are already in the game.
    A weak argument, similar to the one used against the appearance of Sniktch as a LL.

    A basic set of cavalry units is of little consequence as CA can simply add new elements to them.
    Snikch was necessary if all major Skaven clans were to be represented.

    Vardek Crom could easily lead a Kurgan WoC faction, and nothing would be off.

    Even the Kurgan mammoths are used by the Norscans (which should honestly be called Tribes of Chaos).

    There are also no FW or other models left which are distinctively Kurgan. Even the Vampire Coast and Norsca relied on those.
    The majority of Eshin units were already present and there’s nothing stopping CA to add more and expand the Kurgan race as they did with the equally unlikely Cathay and Kislev.

    As I’ve said the Kurgan can come through a modified Northern Barbarian pack rather than a full on race. Kurgan are a strong narrative enemy to Kislev so it wouldn’t be a shock if they appear. Any counters to Kurgan are countered immediately by past CA decisions.

    To claim to know the mind of CA is dubious at best.
    But Clan Eshin itself wasn't in, yet. While the other major clans except for Moulder (which was quite likely to eventually come) were already there.

    They aren't a subrace or anything, they ARE most of the Warriors of Chaos units and lore.

    This is like argueing how Middenland should be its own race separate from the Empire. Or the Norse Dwarfs.

    There were mostly Clan Eshin units already in the game and that was the argument against them used. The idea that Ppl always thought all the major clans had to be represented by a DLC only came in after Sniktch was announced.

    Again, please stop using existing units as an argument when CA have produced totally new lore and units, it’s rather tiring to go over the same basic points.

    The Kurgan Tribes do not come from Norsca, they have a different culture as described in the lore. Why not say it’s ridiculous to expect Bretonnia as they are human just like Empire. Norsca was created out of WoC LLs so again, this is an empty argument.
    It's not an empty argument.

    I obviously am aware how the Kurgans aren't from Norsca, but the current 'Norsca'-race is the Marauder faction in everything but name. There were even quotes about the Kurgans added to the game 1 loading screens when Norsca launched.

    Kurgans are the go-to recruiting grounds for the Warriors of Chaos, as well. Most of its units are either from the Kurgan, Hung or Norscan tribes. They're basically the same, but with some regional differences too delicate to properly portray in this game (like regional differences between the Empire tags).
    So, it’s ‘the current’ race from game 3 and you’re under the impression it’s impossible that CA’s already read the lore connection between Kurgan and Kislev and have though ‘we cannot possibly expand this narrative through an upgrade for Norsca or a race pack?

    That’s great - but I disagree as I’ve learned the problems of thinking I know the mind of CA.
    'CA can do anything' is not an argument. In your eyes, everything is still possible, even though we now know how the map looks and how ALL of the Kurgan things are merged into the Norscan (marauders of Chaos) roster, and have been for years. The Kurgan have never been a serious minor race contender or anything, they're basically a forum-invention which hasn't even gone viral like the Hobgoblin-idea has (which is just a little bit less ridiculous).

    The Dolgans and some of the Kislevites were the same people many thousands of years ago, yes. But they're bitter enemies now, as the Kislevites obviously fight against the hordes of Chaos. Kislev versus Chaos is already one of the major themes. There's nothing new to this.

    Anyway, have you read Tamurkhan? All of those Kurgans of the Dolgan tribe were either WoC or Norscan units.
    Just having a look were I used ‘CA can do anything’ as an argument. I could’ve sworn I used the argument that narratively the Kurgan and Kislev are connected but sure when under pressure make stuff up.

    This reminds me of the time my arguments about CA wanting to gain on the success of 3K in the Chinese market by looking at Cathay as a similar option. I can’t remember the highly skilled counter to that argument but I’m getting similar vibes here.

    And Norsca used WoC LLs, your point is?
    Pathetic, sorry. You're telling me about the fact I can't know what CA will do (I'm not pretending to), that basically means anything you say could happen 'because I don't know CA's inner-workings'. Me being wrong on Cathay before we basically knew anything doesn't mean all of my comments are baseless and wrong, either. We know the map now. I told the forums back in February how the edges of the map were visible in the cinematic trailer, and that not all of Cathay (and Nippon, Khuresh, Ind, etc.) were probably on the map. And it turns out I was right on that one.

    Nothing is pointing towards the Kurgan as a distinct race, nor would it make any sense if all of their characters will probably come in the Monogod or WoC rosters. Their most distinct centrepiece unit is a Norscan unit, as well. A sixth Chaos race after Monogods and Chaos Dwarfs would be overkill, too.

    Kurgan are part of the Norsemen, together with the Hung and the Norscans. They're featured in the so-called 'Norscan' race, but that's basically the Norsemen-faction in all but name. Even the horsemen have Kurgan/Dolgan descriptions.

    I also doubt the Chinese market being the prime motivator to do Cathay.
    The pathetic part for me is a guy who never learns from his day one week one mistakes. ‘I JungleElf know what CA will and won’t include due to my psychic abilities’ proven so well with your guesswork on Cathay. While I on the other hand keeps an open mind on the remaining factions (those footnote factions? Heard that one before) is made out to be the unreasonable one.. you are funny.


    There was no official art to the Cathayan culture and CA changed the look of Kislev.

    Right, and they both still had historical analogs for artistic direction.

    There is examples of art direction to the Kurgan and they don’t have the ‘Viking look’ of the region called Norsca (Norse-Ca).

    Norscans themselves don't even look like Vikings by and large. Chaos tribesmen just look like Chaos tribesmen. Even in Liber Chaotica where an attempt is made to put a spotlight on each tribe with their own illustrations... they all end up looking the exact same.
    So? What historical analogues did Skaven, HE, DE have? Is this the new baseless fashionable argument? All new possible factions must have a historical monologue? I simply don’t accept your premise.

    The Norscana have mini looking Besetkers in their light infantry while they use Chais models to save money.

    Now, could CA use a Cavalry heavy with unique Kurgan based units backed up by general Chaos troops to further the narrative between Kislev’s fiercest foe? I personally think there’s a reasonable chance and nothing that’s been said makes me think any different.
    The Kurgan-case isn't at all comparable to Cathay, is all I'm trying to point out to you. As the Kurgans are already established in a lot of (visual) material and are already parts of the WoC and 'Norscan' rosters.

    You're bashing me, not the points I'm making.

    Crom or Sayl could definitely come, but more than likely as a part of the Norscan or WoC rosters (together with a rework).
    And I’m pointing out that none of that matters. According to you there was no chance Cathay could be part of game 3 because you put far too much weight into your guesswork.

    I can already hear your anti Norsca arguments, barbarians are already present; there are no LLs ( no you can’t use Chaos LLs) as they will be part of Chaos.

    Is it impossible that CA will use Chaos factions until they add more detail? A Lord pack between Kurgan and Kislev which plays on the narrative between them? Of course, you’d say impossible but again, these absolutes do nothing for me.

    You will always be more close minded than me and in some cases this maybe correct but in others (Cathay) you will be wrong. Try to accept this and stop being so confident in your tea leaf reading.
    I definitely think a Kurgan (either WoC or Norscan race) versus Kislev Lord Pack (or any other combination) could happen.

    But a Kurgan race? That one is already there.
    Again, you’re getting mixed up with the concept of race. The race of horse masters who hate Kislev and move around as a horse tribe are not represented in Norsca, by all means, some horsemen could work for Norscans who originate from the Kurgan tribes but that does not anything like bar their inclusion.

    Whether it is a LL pack or race pack I think either could well happen due to the strong narrative connection.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 19,225
    JungleElf said:

    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Thorgar_the_Blooded_One

    A Champion of the Khazags, a Kurgan tribe. Featured in Mark of Chaos.

    A Champion of the WoC used in Norsca.. no link; can’t be bothered.
  • Morpic_TideMorpic_Tide Registered Users Posts: 111
    mw51630 said:

    Beyond Chaos Dwarfs, Dogs of War, and Undead Legions, everything else is a pipe dream.

    I'd actually say Hobgoblins are more likely than Nagash-as-race because their issue is ultimately just positioning, and one can easily shove the second LL south into nominally Chorf territory. "Undead Legions" was literally VCounts+Tomb Kings, Nagash has always operated on roster-welding, and you're needing to salami-slice to fit a fourth Undead race.

    Meanwhile, Hobgoblins need very little thought once you actually pay attention to things they have outside "Not!Mongol", for all I expect a good roster that properly diversifies them to provoke much screaming at having only four or five kinds of missile cavalry instead of being Bretonnia 2: Greenskin Boogaloo.
    Nippon is a no for both, they have almost no lore and they'd just add an island nation next to a more interesting landmass. It's basically the Albion problem and at this point I think most people would say Albion ain't happening.
    I'll disagree here because what little up-to-date lore we have indicates Vampirates and Dark Elves are in the vicinity to raid Cathay, and Clan Eshin started out there. Hybrid Weapon Samurai would work well enough to start distinguishing, and the attached specialists from their ancient book would give a nice mechanic.

    Ultimately unlikely for map reasons because there's a lot of extra Cathay to make interesting before you get there, but that's an issue with how they set up Cathay rather than an issue of what we have on Nippon.
    Ind is in a similar boat on both though the position is at least on the mainland. The fact that they're south of Cathay means a similar role could be filled by Khuresh or the Monkey King and from a lore standpoint they've got almost nothing going for them. Not to mention the placement of Ind and Khuresh means adding one without the other is difficult. I'd not hold my breath.
    They have somewhat more interesting stuff than Cathay did, and it could be built out well, but they are rather insulated without very specific attention to fixing the problem.
    Khuresh has less lore value than Ind and the same positional concerns given they're just spooky snake people who bug Cathay. At least Ind has trade value and therefore a reason to interact with other factions. Making up new lore from whole cloth to support a faction that exists in a single location with very limited range to expand and with no clear attachments to preexisting races is extremely unlikely.
    Far East Beastman and Lizardman location, it's actually a bit crowded all things considered. Though you could have Khuresh supply attachments for Ind because they're not much of a sail apart.
    Hobgoblin Khanate has decent lore appropriateness even with the cramped region though the positional value is questionable. They're geographically locked between powerful chaos factions and Cathay who are supposed to be duking it out. Beyond that the difference in stats for hobgoblin units compared to goblins feels like a tough sell as a separate race pack (and I say race pack because 4 hobgoblin LL was never feasible given the geographic range).
    I tend to add "everyone wants one extremely specific playstyle, that's a Lord Pack." Only so many ways to do missile cavalry, not going to be much better than Bretonnia if you lean on that. If it's one playstyle one wants, that can be done by re-clothing the Chorf hobs, altering more units in Drycha fashion, and properly selecting 3-4 new units and a Lord.

    But then, if you're willing to think outside the box of the Mongoloid desirers, the Hobgoblins do have bits for non-SEM War Beast focus with the Hobhounds, justify an answer to start position with flying units to laugh at mountains, and even have an infantry style founded on very unwise use of gunpowder.

    They can be done. If it's Chaos Dwarfs then Dogs of War as Campaign Packs, Hobgoblins are actually an *extremely* good pick for a Race Pack with how they could crib notes from both to trim the budget. But Not!Mongols aren't a good pick for it, because that's far narrower than proper for a Total War Warhammer race.
  • MODIDDLY1MODIDDLY1 Registered Users Posts: 759
    I don't know what will happen to the Kurgans, but I feel if they are added to Norsca, it takes more away from them than it adds to the Kurgans. With Kurgans being a lot more open about their chaos mutations, I feel it would be better if a WoC kurgan lord just had the ability to recruit mammoths than it does to dillute the entire Norsca faction but we'll see what they end up doing. Honesty, WoC seems like it needs something to make it stand out more than Norsca does with Monos coming.
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