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DE balance issue

tank3487tank3487 MemberRegistered Users Posts: 2,392
edited January 15 in Balancing Discussions
There is a bit of problem with Morathi right now. She got massive buffs with rounding buffing all her stat debuff auras despite already being strongest DE Lord. And now she is just oppressive bs with classic double assasin+double Manticore+Morathi combo. With tripple AOEs and massive stat debuffs. What nerf is valid for her?
Post edited by dge1 on
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Comments

  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,215
    remove WOM discount on her soulstealer, reduce her total MA debuff from -20 to -12 or 13 and lower the -10MD to -8 for starters.

    Soulstealer should also be like final transmutation in that once you leave the aoe you stop taking damage (and if you enter then you start taking damage)
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,462
    edited January 3
    i havent really noticed she needs nerfs, but her auras are really cheap compared to other auras given they are permanent. if you want to nerf her those could be given durations of 20secs/60 sec CD or double cost, soulstealer discount is also likely candidate.
    the mount is also very cheap vs other similar mounts. altho i think it s more that the other mounts cost too much...but if you really want to nerf her, she could lose AL mounted

    But she's a massive investment atm and quite brittle for her cost
  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 714
    Loupi_ said:

    remove WOM discount on her soulstealer, reduce her total MA debuff from -20 to -12 or 13 and lower the -10MD to -8 for starters.

    Soulstealer should also be like final transmutation in that once you leave the aoe you stop taking damage (and if you enter then you start taking damage)

    I aggree, they could just nerf the aura (who is actaully rather cheap) in the abilities for the MA malus and reduce the MD malus from the item. For some reason I suspect that they can't tweak the item so the WoM reduction from campaign ins't applied I think they would have fixed it by then as this is something that is as old as WH1 so their system must have been done in a way that they don't really want to give time to completly change it just to fix something they see as somewhat minor.

    Having said that I really hope they give a +100 gold to feral manticores in game 3. This will be a good indirect nerf to Morathi. And I don't think it's controversial to say that everyone is tired of seeing 2 manticores 90% of the time from all the races who got them.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?

  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,215
    Reym said:

    Loupi_ said:

    remove WOM discount on her soulstealer, reduce her total MA debuff from -20 to -12 or 13 and lower the -10MD to -8 for starters.

    Soulstealer should also be like final transmutation in that once you leave the aoe you stop taking damage (and if you enter then you start taking damage)

    I aggree, they could just nerf the aura (who is actaully rather cheap) in the abilities for the MA malus and reduce the MD malus from the item. For some reason I suspect that they can't tweak the item so the WoM reduction from campaign ins't applied I think they would have fixed it by then as this is something that is as old as WH1 so their system must have been done in a way that they don't really want to give time to completly change it just to fix something they see as somewhat minor.

    Having said that I really hope they give a +100 gold to feral manticores in game 3. This will be a good indirect nerf to Morathi. And I don't think it's controversial to say that everyone is tired of seeing 2 manticores 90% of the time from all the races who got them.
    Its actually very easy to remove the WOM discount for MP, and I dont think it matters if its not applied in campaign since she has so many skills and techs to reduce the WOM cost anyway
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 658
    Yea everyone knows morathi is overpowered because of cheap soul stealers and that should be fixed. But can we also buff other lords as well to make them actually viable? Malus is **** because the second you transform your opponent will just run away while your lord slowly dies. All that needs to be done is have demon Malus take damage while in combat only instead of constantly. Because right now he is pure trash.

    Did Malekith's soul stealer chariot bug ever get fixed? What's it been, over a year or something at this point? Also are cold one chariots still bugged?

    Manticores should get a price increase for every faction, DE included. Assassains are balanced IMO, just don't blob against the DE because they have good counters.

    Finally change power of darkness to an ability like everyone always talks about since it is a garbage spell. Overall the DE are in a pretty good spot post cavalry update, other than the Morathi + 2 manticore spam.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,113
    Reym said:

    Loupi_ said:

    remove WOM discount on her soulstealer, reduce her total MA debuff from -20 to -12 or 13 and lower the -10MD to -8 for starters.

    Soulstealer should also be like final transmutation in that once you leave the aoe you stop taking damage (and if you enter then you start taking damage)

    I aggree, they could just nerf the aura (who is actaully rather cheap) in the abilities for the MA malus and reduce the MD malus from the item. For some reason I suspect that they can't tweak the item so the WoM reduction from campaign ins't applied I think they would have fixed it by then as this is something that is as old as WH1 so their system must have been done in a way that they don't really want to give time to completly change it just to fix something they see as somewhat minor.

    Having said that I really hope they give a +100 gold to feral manticores in game 3. This will be a good indirect nerf to Morathi. And I don't think it's controversial to say that everyone is tired of seeing 2 manticores 90% of the time from all the races who got them.
    The can definitely remove the WoM discount. They already did the same thing for Alarielle. Her items in MP used to reduce the cost of earth blood. Although I don't play High Elves in the campaign so I'm not sure if they changed it there too.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,392
    RawSugar said:


    But she's a massive investment atm and quite brittle for her cost

    She is not brittle with permanent -30 stats debuff around her and 25% magic resists and in built heal with Soul Steal.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,215
    tank3487 said:

    RawSugar said:


    But she's a massive investment atm and quite brittle for her cost

    She is not brittle with permanent -30 stats debuff around her and 25% magic resists and in built heal with Soul Steal.
    plus she hits harder than malekith, who is supposed to be good in melee but suuuucks, she has better AP, Antilarge and a damage buff. makes no sense to be a better caster, better in melee, more mobile, better support character and cheaper than malekith.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 1,076
    The build guide for DE at the moment is:

    - Morathi
    - 2x Assassin
    - 2x Manticore
    - 3x Scourgerunner (depending on matchup can also swap this to be 3x Shades or 4x Repeater Xbows)
    - Rest of the funds (4-5kish from memory) on whatever you feel will be good vs that specific faction.

    Discord/Steam Name: Glorious Feeder
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,837
    She's defiantly OP and has been for a long time, though DE as a whole are still meh and are hard carried by her + manticores.

    I do think best solution would be not to out-rite nerf her but to balance her out.

    Yes reduce the total MA debuf provided by -10 (-5 from each item) and the MD by -5, but at same time reduce her item costs.

    Than She would need to out-rite loose the -2 WOM reduction for soulsteeler.

    This is still an overall a big nerf as a whole but at least with reduced cost of items its more justified.

    I would also nerf manticores with
    +50g (from 800 to 850)
    -4MD (from 34 to 30)

    Last thing i would do is change assasins Item, the AOE DMG is toxic, i would change it into a mini effigy, so a 7s root with same damage per second as spirit leech BUT single target and ofcourse keep it one use only.

    On the other hand i would compensate DE for those nerfs;

    Malekith:
    Supreme Spellshield: +5 Magic Resist for each affected unit (max 6 affected units)
    Circlet of Iron: Change effect into same effect as Anvil of doom (casters within 100m takes dmg when casting)
    Destroyer: -15s internal cooldown (From 90 to 75s), +5s duration (from 15 to 20s)

    Cossaris all +15% missile resist

    All xbows missile speeds up by 10% (not just DE)

    Shades + 10m range

    Dark SHards +15m range

    Doomfires -50g

    And a bit more incentive to take other shade variants than the standard one, could just be better melee though it is already good but the price that is payed is often not worth it.
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 620
    She is OP af but if they give them the HE treatment (aka nerf the cheesy and OP content and let everything else as so) DE are going to have a rough time.
    So i propose they give them the LZM or GS treatment instead aka nerfing her (and Manticores obviously, independently from her) and buff the underpowered parts of DE roster like Malekith items (just compare them to Thorek) , fixing cold one chariots and making doomfires good again.
    Welcome to Cathay - the very ancient, super-duper, hyper, fantastic, incredible, majestic, wonderful, sexy, mighty empire, the greatest of all livings.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,462
    tank3487 said:

    RawSugar said:


    But she's a massive investment atm and quite brittle for her cost

    She is not brittle with permanent -30 stats debuff around her and 25% magic resists and in built heal with Soul Steal.
    40 armor and low hitpoint, defo good but she has drawbacks. including spells she's over 2K making her one of the best value targets in the game. She can be nerfed, the auras are very cheap for what they offer but without a goonsquad too many things can hurt her too badly for her to be OP.

    if nerfing her warrants buffing stuff the DE monster section almost never sees play, dread knights neither
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 476

    She's defiantly OP and has been for a long time, though DE as a whole are still meh and are hard carried by her + manticores.

    I do think best solution would be not to out-rite nerf her but to balance her out.

    Yes reduce the total MA debuf provided by -10 (-5 from each item) and the MD by -5, but at same time reduce her item costs.

    Than She would need to out-rite loose the -2 WOM reduction for soulsteeler.

    This is still an overall a big nerf as a whole but at least with reduced cost of items its more justified.

    I would also nerf manticores with
    +50g (from 800 to 850)
    -4MD (from 34 to 30)

    Last thing i would do is change assasins Item, the AOE DMG is toxic, i would change it into a mini effigy, so a 7s root with same damage per second as spirit leech BUT single target and ofcourse keep it one use only.

    On the other hand i would compensate DE for those nerfs;

    Malekith:
    Supreme Spellshield: +5 Magic Resist for each affected unit (max 6 affected units)
    Circlet of Iron: Change effect into same effect as Anvil of doom (casters within 100m takes dmg when casting)
    Destroyer: -15s internal cooldown (From 90 to 75s), +5s duration (from 15 to 20s)

    Cossaris all +15% missile resist

    All xbows missile speeds up by 10% (not just DE)

    Shades + 10m range

    Dark SHards +15m range

    Doomfires -50g

    And a bit more incentive to take other shade variants than the standard one, could just be better melee though it is already good but the price that is payed is often not worth it.

    -4MD on feral manticore on top of the +50 cost seems a bit to hard for me. I would just stick with the +50 cost for all the rosters that have them.
    Also, i think it is time that scourgerunner chariots get a nerf. -10 armor seems ok, it would allow missiles and lower tier melee units to do some damage against them. As now the only real counter they have are cannons.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,837
    Energyzed said:

    She's defiantly OP and has been for a long time, though DE as a whole are still meh and are hard carried by her + manticores.

    I do think best solution would be not to out-rite nerf her but to balance her out.

    Yes reduce the total MA debuf provided by -10 (-5 from each item) and the MD by -5, but at same time reduce her item costs.

    Than She would need to out-rite loose the -2 WOM reduction for soulsteeler.

    This is still an overall a big nerf as a whole but at least with reduced cost of items its more justified.

    I would also nerf manticores with
    +50g (from 800 to 850)
    -4MD (from 34 to 30)

    Last thing i would do is change assasins Item, the AOE DMG is toxic, i would change it into a mini effigy, so a 7s root with same damage per second as spirit leech BUT single target and ofcourse keep it one use only.

    On the other hand i would compensate DE for those nerfs;

    Malekith:
    Supreme Spellshield: +5 Magic Resist for each affected unit (max 6 affected units)
    Circlet of Iron: Change effect into same effect as Anvil of doom (casters within 100m takes dmg when casting)
    Destroyer: -15s internal cooldown (From 90 to 75s), +5s duration (from 15 to 20s)

    Cossaris all +15% missile resist

    All xbows missile speeds up by 10% (not just DE)

    Shades + 10m range

    Dark SHards +15m range

    Doomfires -50g

    And a bit more incentive to take other shade variants than the standard one, could just be better melee though it is already good but the price that is payed is often not worth it.

    -4MD on feral manticore on top of the +50 cost seems a bit to hard for me. I would just stick with the +50 cost for all the rosters that have them.
    Also, i think it is time that scourgerunner chariots get a nerf. -10 armor seems ok, it would allow missiles and lower tier melee units to do some damage against them. As now the only real counter they have are cannons.
    i agree about the SR chariots, -10 armour be a good nerf and at same time fix cold one chariots so they are not garbage and can actually hit stuff.

    on manticores, i dunno i think they need +100g so trying to find a medium where the gold nerf is not as much and though +50g and -4md is the medium here, could always start with +50g and -2MD.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,462
    manticores are fine, pretty much anything will beat them in melee. they are exactly at the spot a flying unit should be; decent in melee but weaker than grounded units.
    scourgerunners are a lil OP, but now it's starting to be some pretty hefty nerfs requiring equal buffs.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,837
    RawSugar said:

    manticores are fine, pretty much anything will beat them in melee. they are exactly at the spot a flying unit should be; decent in melee but weaker than grounded units.
    scourgerunners are a lil OP, but now it's starting to be some pretty hefty nerfs requiring equal buffs.

    compare manticores to eagles and they defiantly not fine
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,462
    edited January 4

    RawSugar said:

    manticores are fine, pretty much anything will beat them in melee. they are exactly at the spot a flying unit should be; decent in melee but weaker than grounded units.
    scourgerunners are a lil OP, but now it's starting to be some pretty hefty nerfs requiring equal buffs.

    compare manticores to eagles and they defiantly not fine
    I have never seen eagles. eagles are not fine. manticores sometimes see play and often but not always do well. manticores are fine. maybe DE manticores could get +50, but in general they are not OP, and important in many rosters to counter flying and other stuff
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,837
    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    manticores are fine, pretty much anything will beat them in melee. they are exactly at the spot a flying unit should be; decent in melee but weaker than grounded units.
    scourgerunners are a lil OP, but now it's starting to be some pretty hefty nerfs requiring equal buffs.

    compare manticores to eagles and they defiantly not fine
    I have never seen eagles. eagles are not fine. manticores sometimes see play and often but not always do well. manticores are fine. maybe DE manticores could get +50, but in general they are not OP, and important in many rosters to counter flying and other stuff
    I seen manticore spammed all over those days not just from DE's.

    The fact they got terror is what pushes them to the too good category from balanced.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,462

    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    manticores are fine, pretty much anything will beat them in melee. they are exactly at the spot a flying unit should be; decent in melee but weaker than grounded units.
    scourgerunners are a lil OP, but now it's starting to be some pretty hefty nerfs requiring equal buffs.

    compare manticores to eagles and they defiantly not fine
    I have never seen eagles. eagles are not fine. manticores sometimes see play and often but not always do well. manticores are fine. maybe DE manticores could get +50, but in general they are not OP, and important in many rosters to counter flying and other stuff
    I seen manticore spammed all over those days not just from DE's.

    The fact they got terror is what pushes them to the too good category from balanced.
    then remove terror, i could get behind that.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,837
    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    manticores are fine, pretty much anything will beat them in melee. they are exactly at the spot a flying unit should be; decent in melee but weaker than grounded units.
    scourgerunners are a lil OP, but now it's starting to be some pretty hefty nerfs requiring equal buffs.

    compare manticores to eagles and they defiantly not fine
    I have never seen eagles. eagles are not fine. manticores sometimes see play and often but not always do well. manticores are fine. maybe DE manticores could get +50, but in general they are not OP, and important in many rosters to counter flying and other stuff
    I seen manticore spammed all over those days not just from DE's.

    The fact they got terror is what pushes them to the too good category from balanced.
    then remove terror, i could get behind that.
    hard to justify it since they had it in table top, though i do think that would make them balanced, but i really dont see it happening.
  • RawSugarRawSugar Registered Users Posts: 1,462

    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    RawSugar said:

    manticores are fine, pretty much anything will beat them in melee. they are exactly at the spot a flying unit should be; decent in melee but weaker than grounded units.
    scourgerunners are a lil OP, but now it's starting to be some pretty hefty nerfs requiring equal buffs.

    compare manticores to eagles and they defiantly not fine
    I have never seen eagles. eagles are not fine. manticores sometimes see play and often but not always do well. manticores are fine. maybe DE manticores could get +50, but in general they are not OP, and important in many rosters to counter flying and other stuff
    I seen manticore spammed all over those days not just from DE's.

    The fact they got terror is what pushes them to the too good category from balanced.
    then remove terror, i could get behind that.
    hard to justify it since they had it in table top, though i do think that would make them balanced, but i really dont see it happening.
    they were also crazy strong for their cost in tabletop, i dont see the argument being better for changing one or the other on that front. but a small monster being as scary as a huge one seems off so i'd prefer that. it also balances them without interfering with their early combat role
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,685

    She's defiantly OP and has been for a long time, though DE as a whole are still meh and are hard carried by her + manticores.

    I do think best solution would be not to out-rite nerf her but to balance her out.

    Yes reduce the total MA debuf provided by -10 (-5 from each item) and the MD by -5, but at same time reduce her item costs.

    Than She would need to out-rite loose the -2 WOM reduction for soulsteeler.

    This is still an overall a big nerf as a whole but at least with reduced cost of items its more justified.

    I would also nerf manticores with
    +50g (from 800 to 850)
    -4MD (from 34 to 30)

    Last thing i would do is change assasins Item, the AOE DMG is toxic, i would change it into a mini effigy, so a 7s root with same damage per second as spirit leech BUT single target and ofcourse keep it one use only.

    On the other hand i would compensate DE for those nerfs;

    Malekith:
    Supreme Spellshield: +5 Magic Resist for each affected unit (max 6 affected units)
    Circlet of Iron: Change effect into same effect as Anvil of doom (casters within 100m takes dmg when casting)
    Destroyer: -15s internal cooldown (From 90 to 75s), +5s duration (from 15 to 20s)

    Cossaris all +15% missile resist

    All xbows missile speeds up by 10% (not just DE)

    Shades + 10m range

    Dark SHards +15m range

    Doomfires -50g

    And a bit more incentive to take other shade variants than the standard one, could just be better melee though it is already good but the price that is payed is often not worth it.

    Agree with all bar corsair missile resist

    Unless they get an armour nerf.

    Developers chose to interpret sea dragon cloaks as armour not missile.

    I don't mind the armour but alongside missile resist that is far too strong together.

    There is work to be done on corsairs I'd also favour loose formation but not high armour AND missile resist AND high speed.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,386
    i hope it's a cost nerf not a stat nerf. All the threads in the balancing section are about unit one is marginally better/ worse than unit two and it should be tweaked so there's zero difference... i worry that basically all races will end up the same.

    There was another thread about GW infantry... is it really a good thing if Empire Greatswords perform like Black Orcs?? would make the game so boring
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,685
    Theo91 said:

    i hope it's a cost nerf not a stat nerf. All the threads in the balancing section are about unit one is marginally better/ worse than unit two and it should be tweaked so there's zero difference... i worry that basically all races will end up the same.

    There was another thread about GW infantry... is it really a good thing if Empire Greatswords perform like Black Orcs?? would make the game so boring

    That's not what that thread was discussing and those two units are massively different and there were no suggestions to make them similar or perform the same.

    Black orcs are the best heavy infantry in the game.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,837

    She's defiantly OP and has been for a long time, though DE as a whole are still meh and are hard carried by her + manticores.

    I do think best solution would be not to out-rite nerf her but to balance her out.

    Yes reduce the total MA debuf provided by -10 (-5 from each item) and the MD by -5, but at same time reduce her item costs.

    Than She would need to out-rite loose the -2 WOM reduction for soulsteeler.

    This is still an overall a big nerf as a whole but at least with reduced cost of items its more justified.

    I would also nerf manticores with
    +50g (from 800 to 850)
    -4MD (from 34 to 30)

    Last thing i would do is change assasins Item, the AOE DMG is toxic, i would change it into a mini effigy, so a 7s root with same damage per second as spirit leech BUT single target and ofcourse keep it one use only.

    On the other hand i would compensate DE for those nerfs;

    Malekith:
    Supreme Spellshield: +5 Magic Resist for each affected unit (max 6 affected units)
    Circlet of Iron: Change effect into same effect as Anvil of doom (casters within 100m takes dmg when casting)
    Destroyer: -15s internal cooldown (From 90 to 75s), +5s duration (from 15 to 20s)

    Cossaris all +15% missile resist

    All xbows missile speeds up by 10% (not just DE)

    Shades + 10m range

    Dark SHards +15m range

    Doomfires -50g

    And a bit more incentive to take other shade variants than the standard one, could just be better melee though it is already good but the price that is payed is often not worth it.

    Agree with all bar corsair missile resist

    Unless they get an armour nerf.

    Developers chose to interpret sea dragon cloaks as armour not missile.

    I don't mind the armour but alongside missile resist that is far too strong together.

    There is work to be done on corsairs I'd also favour loose formation but not high armour AND missile resist AND high speed.
    I actually think that it be the most balanced way to help DE in their bad match-ups.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 3,215
    corsairs are pretty cool with looser formation and vanguard
  • YannirYannir Registered Users Posts: 1,816

    Energyzed said:

    She's defiantly OP and has been for a long time, though DE as a whole are still meh and are hard carried by her + manticores.

    I do think best solution would be not to out-rite nerf her but to balance her out.

    Yes reduce the total MA debuf provided by -10 (-5 from each item) and the MD by -5, but at same time reduce her item costs.

    Than She would need to out-rite loose the -2 WOM reduction for soulsteeler.

    This is still an overall a big nerf as a whole but at least with reduced cost of items its more justified.

    I would also nerf manticores with
    +50g (from 800 to 850)
    -4MD (from 34 to 30)

    Last thing i would do is change assasins Item, the AOE DMG is toxic, i would change it into a mini effigy, so a 7s root with same damage per second as spirit leech BUT single target and ofcourse keep it one use only.

    On the other hand i would compensate DE for those nerfs;

    Malekith:
    Supreme Spellshield: +5 Magic Resist for each affected unit (max 6 affected units)
    Circlet of Iron: Change effect into same effect as Anvil of doom (casters within 100m takes dmg when casting)
    Destroyer: -15s internal cooldown (From 90 to 75s), +5s duration (from 15 to 20s)

    Cossaris all +15% missile resist

    All xbows missile speeds up by 10% (not just DE)

    Shades + 10m range

    Dark SHards +15m range

    Doomfires -50g

    And a bit more incentive to take other shade variants than the standard one, could just be better melee though it is already good but the price that is payed is often not worth it.

    -4MD on feral manticore on top of the +50 cost seems a bit to hard for me. I would just stick with the +50 cost for all the rosters that have them.
    Also, i think it is time that scourgerunner chariots get a nerf. -10 armor seems ok, it would allow missiles and lower tier melee units to do some damage against them. As now the only real counter they have are cannons.
    i agree about the SR chariots, -10 armour be a good nerf and at same time fix cold one chariots so they are not garbage and can actually hit stuff.

    on manticores, i dunno i think they need +100g so trying to find a medium where the gold nerf is not as much and though +50g and -4md is the medium here, could always start with +50g and -2MD.
    Manticores are like the worst unit in the game when it comes to campaign so I wouldn't nerf them in any ways that affect the campaign. Just stick to the price nerfs.
    Ugh, I have spoken.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 11,837
    Yannir said:

    Energyzed said:

    She's defiantly OP and has been for a long time, though DE as a whole are still meh and are hard carried by her + manticores.

    I do think best solution would be not to out-rite nerf her but to balance her out.

    Yes reduce the total MA debuf provided by -10 (-5 from each item) and the MD by -5, but at same time reduce her item costs.

    Than She would need to out-rite loose the -2 WOM reduction for soulsteeler.

    This is still an overall a big nerf as a whole but at least with reduced cost of items its more justified.

    I would also nerf manticores with
    +50g (from 800 to 850)
    -4MD (from 34 to 30)

    Last thing i would do is change assasins Item, the AOE DMG is toxic, i would change it into a mini effigy, so a 7s root with same damage per second as spirit leech BUT single target and ofcourse keep it one use only.

    On the other hand i would compensate DE for those nerfs;

    Malekith:
    Supreme Spellshield: +5 Magic Resist for each affected unit (max 6 affected units)
    Circlet of Iron: Change effect into same effect as Anvil of doom (casters within 100m takes dmg when casting)
    Destroyer: -15s internal cooldown (From 90 to 75s), +5s duration (from 15 to 20s)

    Cossaris all +15% missile resist

    All xbows missile speeds up by 10% (not just DE)

    Shades + 10m range

    Dark SHards +15m range

    Doomfires -50g

    And a bit more incentive to take other shade variants than the standard one, could just be better melee though it is already good but the price that is payed is often not worth it.

    -4MD on feral manticore on top of the +50 cost seems a bit to hard for me. I would just stick with the +50 cost for all the rosters that have them.
    Also, i think it is time that scourgerunner chariots get a nerf. -10 armor seems ok, it would allow missiles and lower tier melee units to do some damage against them. As now the only real counter they have are cannons.
    i agree about the SR chariots, -10 armour be a good nerf and at same time fix cold one chariots so they are not garbage and can actually hit stuff.

    on manticores, i dunno i think they need +100g so trying to find a medium where the gold nerf is not as much and though +50g and -4md is the medium here, could always start with +50g and -2MD.
    Manticores are like the worst unit in the game when it comes to campaign so I wouldn't nerf them in any ways that affect the campaign. Just stick to the price nerfs.
    I dont see at all how -2MD would have any impact in campaign on them, but sure add a tec that gives them +2MD if its that big an issue, or just add a tec that actually gives them a proper boost so they not ****.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,392
    RawSugar said:

    manticores are fine, pretty much anything will beat them in melee.

    Manticores are too cheap for flying Terror source and melee performance that they have. And how hard it is to prevent char snipe by them if you do not take flying Lord. Thing is, manticores have excellent charge animations and make wonderful damage on charge.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,392
    edited January 5
    RawSugar said:


    40 armor and low hitpoint, defo good but she has drawbacks. including spells she's over 2K making her one of the best value targets in the game.

    She is not low on hitpoints. She has same hitpoints like Blood Dragon vampire on hellsteed for example(while costing significantly less and being better in melee). Lack of armor do get compensated by stat debuffs and magic resist(magic resist limit snipe by magic/magic missiles which is a big deal).
    Do not forget that Soul Steal spam healcap her every game.

    -30 stats debuff is just too much. Especially due to items that provide it cost little actually.
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