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Total War: Warhammer 3 Feasible AI Improvement Discussion

CaterpillarboyCaterpillarboy Registered Users Posts: 4
Hi, I was just wondering of the possibilities of an AI in Total War: Warhammer 3 that is improved over Warhammer 2.

Would it be possible for AI to detect when a player is wasting the AI's ammunition by moving around/kiting with a single entity, and for them to hold fire to preserve their ammunition. It would be nice to remove this exploit. Having an AI exhibit that kind of intelligent response is very important. I am not a programmer, so I don't know how easy it would be to implement. If the AI could be aware of its missiles-fired:missiles-hit ratio over a period of three volleys, then it could assess its accuracy and decide to continue shooting or not.
I can see how this might be difficult to implement, considering whether the AI is turned off from firing at a single entity for the rest of the battle after an accuracy check, or whether it goes through multiple accuracy checks after periods of time to try to catch the player off guard.

The AI could also avoid shooting missiles at a unit that has a certain amount of resistance until it is the last unit left on the battle field. Otherwise the AI is letting the player successfully tank and waste AI ammunition, instead of tactically doing as much damage to the players army as it possibly can by ignoring a tank.

Another point I would like to make is that I don't believe I've ever seen the AI use a wind spell properly in Warhammer 2. It sounds feasible to implement the ability for an AI to use a wind spell that damages as many player's models as possible and minimizes damage to its own units. Maybe someone disagrees and has a different experience with AI spellcasting in Warhammer 2?

Please let me know if any of you have other ideas for a feasibly improved AI in Warhammer 3, as well as if you agree with implementing an AI that doesn't waste its ammunition trying to hit a moving/kiting single entity.

Comments

  • Madi92Madi92 Registered Users Posts: 32
    Why on earth would the waste resource specifically for this? Im all about AI improvements, but if you DONT want to Cheese the AI, then DONT Cheese the AI. Its a players choice, or someone holding a gun to your head?
  • blaatblaat Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,155
    edited January 4

    Hi, I was just wondering of the possibilities of an AI in Total War: Warhammer 3 that is improved over Warhammer 2.

    Would it be possible for AI to detect when a player is wasting the AI's ammunition by moving around/kiting with a single entity, and for them to hold fire to preserve their ammunition. It would be nice to remove this exploit. Having an AI exhibit that kind of intelligent response is very important. I am not a programmer, so I don't know how easy it would be to implement. If the AI could be aware of its missiles-fired:missiles-hit ratio over a period of three volleys, then it could assess its accuracy and decide to continue shooting or not.
    I can see how this might be difficult to implement, considering whether the AI is turned off from firing at a single entity for the rest of the battle after an accuracy check, or whether it goes through multiple accuracy checks after periods of time to try to catch the player off guard.



    this exist in 3K on higher difficulties


    snip

    It's much easier and more fun to get engrossed in lore that takes itself seriously and tries to make sense within its own frame of reference.

    the reason I prefer LOTR over warhammer fantasy and 40k

    I am dutch so if you like to have a talk in dutch shoot me a PM :)
  • saj1987saj1987 Registered Users Posts: 197
    Madi92 said:

    Why on earth would the waste resource specifically for this? Im all about AI improvements, but if you DONT want to Cheese the AI, then DONT Cheese the AI. Its a players choice, or someone holding a gun to your head?

    Exactly this. I don't cheese and see zero skill in doing so but if someone wants to, it's their single player experience after all.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,899
    edited January 4
    I hope so. Would be pretty disappointing if they don't even bother to import the fixes they made in Three Kingdom.

    And for the folks who are suspiciously DESPERATE to keep cheese in the game, Fixing the AI's ability to aim wind spells has nothing to do with cheese. It's improving the AI, like you claim to want.

    For me, the biggest battle AI improvement I would like to see is better deployment formations. I want the AI position its infantry smartly so that it doesn't get wiped out by a single Wind of Death. I want the AI actually vanguard deploying when it makes sense. I want the AI deploy in formations that allow it to execute basic tactics.
  • drogarito92drogarito92 Registered Users Posts: 868
    Yeah, AI blobbage and one-click multi-billion kill is not fun for everyone. At least put it as some option to check/uncheck cheesing ai. With unit caps being optional in the campaign as well. Also instead of buffing the ai with stats on legendary, make it be more un-cheesable instead. That's where the real challenge lies.
  • CaterpillarboyCaterpillarboy Registered Users Posts: 4
    edited January 4
    Jman5 said:



    For me, the biggest battle AI improvement I would like to see is better deployment formations. I want the AI position its infantry smartly so that it doesn't get wiped out by a single Wind of Death. I want the AI actually vanguard deploying when it makes sense. I want the AI deploy in formations that allow it to execute basic tactics.


    Regarding improved formation, that could give extra value to ambushes- that an ambushed army's formation can be hit more effectively with a wind spell, than if they were deployed defensively.
    That being said, it is very satisfying to use massive-damage spells on blobs or lines, so perhaps it would be better if there were more instances where it is a viable tactic. Maybe it could be implemented as some armies using better tactics than other armies. So some armies blob more than others.
  • drogarito92drogarito92 Registered Users Posts: 868
    If there is a situation where you can wipe out everything with a wind spell, it's during ambushes when the entire army is moving in line formation.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,899

    Jman5 said:



    For me, the biggest battle AI improvement I would like to see is better deployment formations. I want the AI position its infantry smartly so that it doesn't get wiped out by a single Wind of Death. I want the AI actually vanguard deploying when it makes sense. I want the AI deploy in formations that allow it to execute basic tactics.


    Regarding improved formation, that could give extra value to ambushes- that an ambushed army's formation can be hit more effectively with a wind spell, than if they were deployed defensively.
    That being said, it is very satisfying to use massive-damage spells on blobs or lines, so perhaps it would be better if there were more instances where it is a viable tactic. Maybe it could be implemented as some armies using better tactics than other armies. So some armies blob more than others.
    IMO, deployment logic would be the perfect sort of change to adjust based on difficulty. Provides visible proof that the AI is tougher and not just relying on stat-buffs. Play on Normal battle difficulty and the AI will deploy as they do in Warhammer 2. Play on Hard or Very Hard and the AI will deploy a little more smartly. For example, slightly spacing and staggering their infantry line.

    For some people the satisfaction from using those big damage spells only comes when they work for those moments. If the AI allows you to kill them too easily it gets kind of boring quickly. I want my army to mean something. I don't want one caster to be able to reliably smoosh the entire enemy army.
  • joproulx99joproulx99 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,566

    Hi, I was just wondering of the possibilities of an AI in Total War: Warhammer 3 that is improved over Warhammer 2.

    Would it be possible for AI to detect when a player is wasting the AI's ammunition by moving around/kiting with a single entity, and for them to hold fire to preserve their ammunition. It would be nice to remove this exploit. Having an AI exhibit that kind of intelligent response is very important. I am not a programmer, so I don't know how easy it would be to implement. If the AI could be aware of its missiles-fired:missiles-hit ratio over a period of three volleys, then it could assess its accuracy and decide to continue shooting or not.
    I can see how this might be difficult to implement, considering whether the AI is turned off from firing at a single entity for the rest of the battle after an accuracy check, or whether it goes through multiple accuracy checks after periods of time to try to catch the player off guard.

    The AI could also avoid shooting missiles at a unit that has a certain amount of resistance until it is the last unit left on the battle field. Otherwise the AI is letting the player successfully tank and waste AI ammunition, instead of tactically doing as much damage to the players army as it possibly can by ignoring a tank.

    I want this as well, but there is a drawback to this, fast single entity units can then just rush the ranged units as they refuse to shoot them, its a perverse counter effect.

    I would personally fix this by giving AI infinite ammos, this way shutting them down is the only way to win. (On higher difficulty at least).


    Another point I would like to make is that I don't believe I've ever seen the AI use a wind spell properly in Warhammer 2. It sounds feasible to implement the ability for an AI to use a wind spell that damages as many player's models as possible and minimizes damage to its own units. Maybe someone disagrees and has a different experience with AI spellcasting in Warhammer 2?

    It should be much better at targeting based on difficulty, for sure, agreed. But damage spells are in the same boat as ranged units, they are too easy to use against AI and do too much dps, especially to slow infantry units who are bullied from everyone and everything so far in the series, while the AI on the other hand make poor use of them both, other then by cheer numbers.

    I would like them to address the ineptitude of the AI defend its back line as well, at least make an effort, like its important!

    "Fear me mortals, for I am the Anointed, the favored Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall."

    ~ Archaon, Lord of the End Times
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,899
    I don't think you necessarily need a blobbing mechanic or spell per say. Troop maneuvering by a smart player can have that effect of setting things up for the big blob kaboom. For example if you come in from behind it causes the ranged units to retreat into the melee infantry creating a blob. That IMO is much more satisfying for a Total War player because you're using tactics, timing, and multiple units to achieve your aims.
  • SteamlockSteamlock Registered Users Posts: 88
    Look, the AI can’t help being dumb.

    But you don’t have to act smart.

    Playing to win is a choice. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Play dumb, have fun.

    Like when your with those old friends that mentally haven’t left high school. Pretend you’re actually into whatever Hollywood Insider garbage they are conversing about.

    Just take your hero, park them in the firing line of a tower until they are battered stupid, then walk mod to the gate and pretend the AI is good at sieges.
  • CaterpillarboyCaterpillarboy Registered Users Posts: 4
    Jman5 said:

    Jman5 said:



    For me, the biggest battle AI improvement I would like to see is better deployment formations. I want the AI position its infantry smartly so that it doesn't get wiped out by a single Wind of Death. I want the AI actually vanguard deploying when it makes sense. I want the AI deploy in formations that allow it to execute basic tactics.


    Regarding improved formation, that could give extra value to ambushes- that an ambushed army's formation can be hit more effectively with a wind spell, than if they were deployed defensively.
    That being said, it is very satisfying to use massive-damage spells on blobs or lines, so perhaps it would be better if there were more instances where it is a viable tactic. Maybe it could be implemented as some armies using better tactics than other armies. So some armies blob more than others.
    IMO, deployment logic would be the perfect sort of change to adjust based on difficulty. Provides visible proof that the AI is tougher and not just relying on stat-buffs. Play on Normal battle difficulty and the AI will deploy as they do in Warhammer 2. Play on Hard or Very Hard and the AI will deploy a little more smartly. For example, slightly spacing and staggering their infantry line.

    For some people the satisfaction from using those big damage spells only comes when they work for those moments. If the AI allows you to kill them too easily it gets kind of boring quickly. I want my army to mean something. I don't want one caster to be able to reliably smoosh the entire enemy army.

    Yeah, it might be better to keep massive spell damage as somewhat of a luxury. It would be good if there were game mechanics that allowed the player to cause the enemy to blob, such as a spell that causes units to blob (perhaps a vortex that sucks units into a blob) that can be followed by an explosion spell or a wind spell. But I'm not sure how that would be any different to AI blobbing without a spell. Perhaps because it gives a cost to it. It would have to be a significant cost. Perhaps the blobbing spell comes from an item and only has one use per battle. It would also make the AI potentially more effective at doing massive spell damage to the player if they possessed this item.
  • overtaker40overtaker40 Registered Users Posts: 660
    Madi92 said:

    Why on earth would the waste resource specifically for this? Im all about AI improvements, but if you DONT want to Cheese the AI, then DONT Cheese the AI. Its a players choice, or someone holding a gun to your head?

    Its a developers job to stop players ruining the game for themselves. Humans always walk across the grass instead of taking the path, its in our nature.
    I like all the races. Equally. Wood elves are just the first among equals.
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