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I did not say in any way that Warriors of Chaos were not made up of Norscans from within their ranks. I’m not even sure how you read my post to arrive at that misapprehension.
You wrote Norsca was not populated by WoCs, which it was -- it might not be all WoCs, but WoCs lived there. Just by the story of Wulfrik it's clear there were WoCs who lived as Chaos Lords and champions. The Norscans weren't just worshippers of WoCs, WoCs were also norscans. No one misinterpreted you.
Norsca is not populated by Warriors of Chaos. In order to become a Warrior of Chaos, a Norscan has to leave Norsca and head into the Chaos Wastes.
Norsca not being populated by WoC does not in any way equal Warriors of Chaos not having Norscans in their ranks. Neither of those statements implies the other.
I did not say in any way that Warriors of Chaos were not made up of Norscans from within their ranks. I’m not even sure how you read my post to arrive at that misapprehension.
You wrote Norsca was not populated by WoCs, which it was -- it might not be all WoCs, but WoCs lived there. Just by the story of Wulfrik it's clear there were WoCs who lived as Chaos Lords and champions. The Norscans weren't just worshippers of WoCs, WoCs were also norscans. No one misinterpreted you.
Norsca is not populated by Warriors of Chaos. In order to become a Warrior of Chaos, a Norscan has to leave Norsca and head into the Chaos Wastes.
Norsca not being populated by WoC does not in any way equal Warriors of Chaos not having Norscans in their ranks. Neither of those statements implies the other.
Norsca does have Warriors of Chaos though, both in terms of actual Chaos Warriors who’ve either gone off and come back or managed to attain that status in situ (Wulfric is an example in game and both Sigvald and Vilich are examples in lore) and in the more holistic useage where Chaos Marauders and there leaders very much come under the Warriors of Chaos army umbrella. A Norscan raid would be represented in 7th and 8th by a Warriors of Chaos army, albeit one more marauder and spawn heavy.
Half the Norsca roster in TWW were WoC units as well (albeit largely FW ones).
I did not say in any way that Warriors of Chaos were not made up of Norscans from within their ranks. I’m not even sure how you read my post to arrive at that misapprehension.
You wrote Norsca was not populated by WoCs, which it was -- it might not be all WoCs, but WoCs lived there. Just by the story of Wulfrik it's clear there were WoCs who lived as Chaos Lords and champions. The Norscans weren't just worshippers of WoCs, WoCs were also norscans. No one misinterpreted you.
Norsca is not populated by Warriors of Chaos. In order to become a Warrior of Chaos, a Norscan has to leave Norsca and head into the Chaos Wastes.
Norsca not being populated by WoC does not in any way equal Warriors of Chaos not having Norscans in their ranks. Neither of those statements implies the other.
Norsca does have Warriors of Chaos though, both in terms of actual Chaos Warriors who’ve either gone off and come back or managed to attain that status in situ (Wulfric is an example in game and both Sigvald and Vilich are examples in lore) and in the more holistic useage where Chaos Marauders and there leaders very much come under the Warriors of Chaos army umbrella. A Norscan raid would be represented in 7th and 8th by a Warriors of Chaos army, albeit one more marauder and spawn heavy.
Half the Norsca roster in TWW were WoC units as well (albeit largely FW ones).
I’m aware that some few WoC reside in Norsca. My point was that you can’t just merge WoC and Norsca factions, as that does not accurately represent who lives in Norsca. It is by a large margin predominantly populated by Norscan raiders. Quibbling over the word “populate” aside, the statement “WoC does not populate Norsca” does not in any way entail “there are no Norscans in the WoC,” as multiple posters have misinterpreted.
My point was that you can’t just merge WoC and Norsca factions, as that does not accurately represent who lives in Norsca.
A. The only reason WoC does not accurately represent Norsca is because the Norscan units that SHOULD have gone to WoC(because the Norse are PART OF THE WOC), didn't.
B. Talking about accuracy when they straight up took mammoths from the Kurgan(another part of the WoC) and gave them to Norsca.
C. It's less important that a faction represent the people that live there than the armies that occupy the place. Because armies is what this game is about. And Norsca is lousy with Chaos warbands.
D. Talk to Araby about how well this game represents the people that live there.
"Assassination's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it."
My point was that you can’t just merge WoC and Norsca factions, as that does not accurately represent who lives in Norsca.
A. The only reason WoC does not accurately represent Norsca is because the Norscan units that SHOULD have gone to WoC(because the Norse are PART OF THE WOC), didn't.
B. Talking about accuracy when they straight up took mammoths from the Kurgan(another part of the WoC) and gave them to Norsca.
C. It's less important that a faction represent the people that live there than the armies that occupy the place. Because armies is what this game is about. And Norsca is lousy with Chaos warbands.
D. Talk to Araby about how well this game represents the people that live there.
The reason that WoC does not accurately represent Norsca is because the WoC inhabit the Chaos Wastes, not the Northern Wastes. In the lore, WoC bands often include large number of Norscan raiders, but Norscans also raid independently of the Warriors of Chaos, so having Norsca be the Warriors of Chaos faction would not be accurate.
Mammoths come from Norsca, according to the 3rd edition army book.
The Warriors of Chaos do not occupy Norsca. Not typically. They do when they descend from the Chaos Wastes on the warpath, and you can find some number of them their, but generally speaking that is not where you find them.
Ideally we would have Araby too. That has no bearing on anything I have said. Are you saying that since we don’t have Araby we shouldn’t have Norsca accurately represented?
Norsca is fine being a seperate entity, having Undivided and each God represented will work fine, and the only real question when it comes to WoC is where we draw the line. What qualifies as WoC, what qualifies as Monogod. Lot of overlap chances. There are obvious inclusions like Archaon, the head honcho, and Kholek, a Dragon Ogre and thus unaffiliated, but the other WoC characters get a bit murky. I'm a big proponent of Monogods, but I also believe that they work best as a fusion of mortal and daemon influences. To that end, characters like Valkia and Sigvald would probably function best in their respective Monogod factions. Pick up a bunch of traits and abilities specific to that god to show how their gods favor plays through them. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave WoC with much in the way of options. Which might work to their favor.
It all really depends on what CA has done to the WoC since TWW3 started development, but a small expansion to their roster options coupled with a heavy tweak to their mechanics and you could almost leave the WoC alone. Leave it as just Archaon and Kholek until they bring in Vardek Crom. Revolve the campaign around Archaon going around unifying the now 7 different factions of Chaos. Give him the ability to permanently vassalize any Chaos faction he defeats the faction leader for. Really make use of the new Allegiance system to simulate one unified force of Chaos rampaging under Archaons banner. But again, it's all speculation until we see what happened to the WoC.
Norsca is fine being a seperate entity, having Undivided and each God represented will work fine, and the only real question when it comes to WoC is where we draw the line. What qualifies as WoC, what qualifies as Monogod. Lot of overlap chances. There are obvious inclusions like Archaon, the head honcho, and Kholek, a Dragon Ogre and thus unaffiliated, but the other WoC characters get a bit murky. I'm a big proponent of Monogods, but I also believe that they work best as a fusion of mortal and daemon influences. To that end, characters like Valkia and Sigvald would probably function best in their respective Monogod factions. Pick up a bunch of traits and abilities specific to that god to show how their gods favor plays through them. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave WoC with much in the way of options. Which might work to their favor.
It all really depends on what CA has done to the WoC since TWW3 started development, but a small expansion to their roster options coupled with a heavy tweak to their mechanics and you could almost leave the WoC alone. Leave it as just Archaon and Kholek until they bring in Vardek Crom. Revolve the campaign around Archaon going around unifying the now 7 different factions of Chaos. Give him the ability to permanently vassalize any Chaos faction he defeats the faction leader for. Really make use of the new Allegiance system to simulate one unified force of Chaos rampaging under Archaons banner. But again, it's all speculation until we see what happened to the WoC.
That seems solid to me.
Yes, the current state of the WoC, Norsca, and DoC seems quite out of place at the moment, but I don't think you need to go too far to fix the issues, IMO.
Having a couple of undivided LL in WoC, with Archaon possibly having ways to vassalize any of the Choas factions seems pretty significant and interesting as the Chaos Unifier and with Kholek just an undivided WoC LL that doesn't want to necessarily unite Chaos but instead just wants to complete his pact, seems good enough. Then add four various WoC aligned LL, Sigvald already being in. Maybe just add the mono-god specific greater demons (non-exalted?) as able to be recruited directly to make these WoC more aligned and have them gain a lot of bonus diplomacy to their respective god so their alliance would basically be assured. With that, it would just require three more LL (that might seem like a lot, who knows) to get all the god aligned WoC in.
But, regardless, I don't think much needs to be done to fix this problem. I do believe, the WoC mechanics does need to change a bit. It's fine with them being a Horde faction, but I would take a book out of SFO and give WoC Chaos Fortresses and Bastions, just like how BM create Herdstones.
My point was that you can’t just merge WoC and Norsca factions, as that does not accurately represent who lives in Norsca.
A. The only reason WoC does not accurately represent Norsca is because the Norscan units that SHOULD have gone to WoC(because the Norse are PART OF THE WOC), didn't.
B. Talking about accuracy when they straight up took mammoths from the Kurgan(another part of the WoC) and gave them to Norsca.
C. It's less important that a faction represent the people that live there than the armies that occupy the place. Because armies is what this game is about. And Norsca is lousy with Chaos warbands.
D. Talk to Araby about how well this game represents the people that live there.
The reason that WoC does not accurately represent Norsca is because the WoC inhabit the Chaos Wastes, not the Northern Wastes. In the lore, WoC bands often include large number of Norscan raiders, but Norscans also raid independently of the Warriors of Chaos, so having Norsca be the Warriors of Chaos faction would not be accurate.
Mammoths come from Norsca, according to the 3rd edition army book.
The Warriors of Chaos do not occupy Norsca. Not typically. They do when they descend from the Chaos Wastes on the warpath, and you can find some number of them their, but generally speaking that is not where you find them.
Ideally we would have Araby too. That has no bearing on anything I have said. Are you saying that since we don’t have Araby we shouldn’t have Norsca accurately represented?
In TT and lore Norscan raiding parties are WoC armies, just marauder heavy ones.
Wulfrik is a Norscan champion who leads his own raids (WoC character). Sigvald is the chief of a Norscan Tribe (WoC character) All the Norscan invasions described in the novels after the time of Sigmar (and even some of those) are Warriors of Chaos armies led by Chaos Champions.
Norsca is a subset of the WoC army. Saying WoC do not represent Norsca is like saying Skaven don’t represent one of the Clans.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s nice to have a zoomed in view of Norsca with a bit more fidelity to the units and cool mechanics (despite the addition of very non-Norscan Fimir), but lorewise they’re part of WoC.
Instead for the introduction of the characters from the dlc.
Along side some lord specific mechanics and maybe some unique units. Such as adjusting the roster to be less demon focussed and more warrior focused.
-Archeon should be added to the undivided faction (where I assume belakor will also go) give him special chosen units.
-Kholek should be added to khorne
-Sigvald to Slanesh
And
-Sathorial should go to tzench (let CA make their own character like they did with cylostra)
Could couple that with a flc for Nurgle to keeps those peeps happy.
As long as they are playable and updated I think that will meet any obligation CA has to the people that own the DLC without having to completely overhaul
First you people don't want WoC to get the mortal monogod units, NOW YOU WANT THEM DISBANDED!?
That is the weird part indeed, but they also are not daemons of chaos, so that is why I am so confused.
They got a couple of mortals units and every daemon. They are simply DoC+.
I think it is pretty telling the MP roster is only daemons. The MP roster is daemons of chaos, the campaign roster is not. Which is why they are called chaos undivided in the trailer.
Anyway it is semantics, it is not the chaos "species" sorting anyway.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that gaining the mortal followers is more of a Godslayer thing and Be'lakor if ever added as his own campaign start will have a roster like the MP one.
That would make sense, another thing I think would make sense is that the godslayer will not get mortals at launch? idk.
Which is why they are called chaos undivided in the trailer.
CA refered to monogod races as "daemons" multiple time, so I don't think that it matters how they are called outside the game itself. After all, DoC are also Chaos Undivided in the sense that it combines all the alligments. What matters is that by calling them "Daemons of Chaos" in the game CA showed that they are a separate thing from WoC.
idk what you think I am implying? I am just pointing out that it is messy.
Beastmen, WoC and DoC are the types, and undivided, khorne, slaanesh, nurgle and tzeentch are the alignments. But now we have this weird DoC thing which is sorted by alignment. Imagine both the undivded and undivided light but mainly daemons together that would be really weird.
That is the weird part indeed, but they also are not daemons of chaos, so that is why I am so confused.
They got a couple of mortals units and every daemon. They are simply DoC+.
I think it is pretty telling the MP roster is only daemons. The MP roster is daemons of chaos, the campaign roster is not. Which is why they are called chaos undivided in the trailer.
Anyway it is semantics, it is not the chaos "species" sorting anyway.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that gaining the mortal followers is more of a Godslayer thing and Be'lakor if ever added as his own campaign start will have a roster like the MP one.
That would make sense, another thing I think would make sense is that the godslayer will not get mortals at launch? idk.
Which is why they are called chaos undivided in the trailer.
CA refered to monogod races as "daemons" multiple time, so I don't think that it matters how they are called outside the game itself. After all, DoC are also Chaos Undivided in the sense that it combines all the alligments. What matters is that by calling them "Daemons of Chaos" in the game CA showed that they are a separate thing from WoC.
idk what you think I am implying? I am just pointing out that it is messy.
Beastmen, WoC and DoC are the types, and undivided, khorne, slaanesh, nurgle and tzeentch are the alignments. But now we have this weird DoC thing which is sorted by alignment. Imagine both the undivded and undivided light but mainly daemons together that would be really weird.
Tbf the CJ list (5th I think?) had mammoths, but CJ lists are not fully official (though the Kislev one did get pretty well mined for WH3 content, very little from the Norsca one though which didn’t even have them as Chaos worshippers).
Comments
Norsca not being populated by WoC does not in any way equal Warriors of Chaos not having Norscans in their ranks. Neither of those statements implies the other.
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0 · 3Disagree AgreeHalf the Norsca roster in TWW were WoC units as well (albeit largely FW ones).
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2 · Disagree 2Agree- Report
1 · 2Disagree 1Agree- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1AgreeB. Talking about accuracy when they straight up took mammoths from the Kurgan(another part of the WoC) and gave them to Norsca.
C. It's less important that a faction represent the people that live there than the armies that occupy the place. Because armies is what this game is about. And Norsca is lousy with Chaos warbands.
D. Talk to Araby about how well this game represents the people that live there.
- Report
0 · 2Disagree AgreeMammoths come from Norsca, according to the 3rd edition army book.
The Warriors of Chaos do not occupy Norsca. Not typically. They do when they descend from the Chaos Wastes on the warpath, and you can find some number of them their, but generally speaking that is not where you find them.
Ideally we would have Araby too. That has no bearing on anything I have said. Are you saying that since we don’t have Araby we shouldn’t have Norsca accurately represented?
- Report
1 · 3Disagree 1AgreeIt all really depends on what CA has done to the WoC since TWW3 started development, but a small expansion to their roster options coupled with a heavy tweak to their mechanics and you could almost leave the WoC alone. Leave it as just Archaon and Kholek until they bring in Vardek Crom. Revolve the campaign around Archaon going around unifying the now 7 different factions of Chaos. Give him the ability to permanently vassalize any Chaos faction he defeats the faction leader for. Really make use of the new Allegiance system to simulate one unified force of Chaos rampaging under Archaons banner. But again, it's all speculation until we see what happened to the WoC.
- Report
2 · 1Disagree 2AgreeYes, the current state of the WoC, Norsca, and DoC seems quite out of place at the moment, but I don't think you need to go too far to fix the issues, IMO.
Having a couple of undivided LL in WoC, with Archaon possibly having ways to vassalize any of the Choas factions seems pretty significant and interesting as the Chaos Unifier and with Kholek just an undivided WoC LL that doesn't want to necessarily unite Chaos but instead just wants to complete his pact, seems good enough. Then add four various WoC aligned LL, Sigvald already being in. Maybe just add the mono-god specific greater demons (non-exalted?) as able to be recruited directly to make these WoC more aligned and have them gain a lot of bonus diplomacy to their respective god so their alliance would basically be assured. With that, it would just require three more LL (that might seem like a lot, who knows) to get all the god aligned WoC in.
But, regardless, I don't think much needs to be done to fix this problem. I do believe, the WoC mechanics does need to change a bit. It's fine with them being a Horde faction, but I would take a book out of SFO and give WoC Chaos Fortresses and Bastions, just like how BM create Herdstones.
- Report
0 · 1Disagree AgreeWulfrik is a Norscan champion who leads his own raids (WoC character).
Sigvald is the chief of a Norscan Tribe (WoC character)
All the Norscan invasions described in the novels after the time of Sigmar (and even some of those) are Warriors of Chaos armies led by Chaos Champions.
Norsca is a subset of the WoC army. Saying WoC do not represent Norsca is like saying Skaven don’t represent one of the Clans.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s nice to have a zoomed in view of Norsca with a bit more fidelity to the units and cool mechanics (despite the addition of very non-Norscan Fimir), but lorewise they’re part of WoC.
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2 · Disagree 2Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree 1AgreeTbf the CJ list (5th I think?) had mammoths, but CJ lists are not fully official (though the Kislev one did get pretty well mined for WH3 content, very little from the Norsca one though which didn’t even have them as Chaos worshippers).
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree