A case for Nordland as an Empire FLC/DLC in WH3

TheWattman#7460

This thread is a revamp of an earlier thread I made about the possibilities of unlocking Nordland for the Empire in WH3: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/286478/completely-hypothetical-nordland-dlc-for-empire-the-terror-the-tentacle#latest

Since before the reveal of the WH3 map, I've thought that this province could in fact be made into viable Empire start in the thrid game, acting as the Empire bulwark against Norsca (or just as well could act as an aggressive expansioner in that region). And with the reveal of the WH3's map, I think this concept has gained additional merit for several reasons. Let me go through them:



First and foremost, Im NOT arguing to replace either Middenland, the Ar-Ulric or whoever from Nuln ends up facing Tamurkhan with Nordland. The Cult of Ulric and Nuln updates take priority here. What Im mainly focused is the lack of Leitdorf's Averland and the very squished state of the Empire in this version of the map. Consider what a Middenland or Wissenland campaign would be like here. You will hardly fight anyone except for fellow Imperials, Kislevites or Dwarfs here, which you really shouldn't do with so many chaos factions running around. Middenland's only option is to take Marienburg and then decide whether going across the sea is worth it (Sure Skrag is around but so isolated he shouldn't be a problem). Claiming Reikland and the Emperorship won't change that. Wissenland, which is only a minor 2-settlement province here, can only hope that Stirland is destroyed by Sylvania and then push east, but then again you run into a wall of Dwarf allies. Both of these provinces would, IMO, do better to be on the combined map only (just like Averland would be), while the actual Empire DLCs add expeditions (Cult of Ulric and Nuln expedition) outside the Empire. If you notice, the Nordland province is 3 settlements instead of just 2 on ME, the same number as Middenland or Reikland have here too.

Here is where Nordland comes in. There is a reason that its Nordland that Daemon Prince fights on turn 1 in his campaign: Nordland is the only province with easy access to expansion into non-supposedly-allied territory in Norsca. And since Norsca has been made into Frozen climate rather than just Chaos Wasteland, its actually possible to settle there successfully. And even beyond Norsca there are more enemies to fight up in the Wastes. On the flip side, it would actually make sense for Nordland to fight other Imperials because of the territorial ambitions of Count Gausser, a significant nuisance in the Empire as a whole. Gausser has claims in Ostland, Marienburg and Hochland, which unlike more loyal provinces would allow for major disruptions within the Order-dominated southwest of the map. But in essence, Nordland would be the only province with a decent amount of room to maneuver, even without special claim-mechanics.



Now beyond a suitable starting location and reasonable lore-connected expansion reasons (which could be enough to warrant an FLC), what could Nordland offer in terms of hypothetical DLC content? Well you can look back at my original thread for details, but the jist of it is an Imperial Naval Theme, things like duelist Admiral Lords, medium-tier infantry marines and a Knightly Order like the Sons of Manann, in the form of anti-infantry heavy cavalry. Sort of akin to what awaits the High Elves when Aislinn eventually joins their ranks, just that Nordland focuses on Manann rather than Mathlann. Beyond that there are always possibilities to do fun things with converted Norscans/Norscan Mercenaries or Gausser's tenious alliance with the Elves of Laurelorn.

However, with so many races needing updates everywhere else, I acknowledge the overall unlikelyness of this. But Nordland doesn't necessarily need to be a DLC either, it can stand on its own without it on this map. And it would also add to the campaigns of others, especially Kostaltyn. It would add a very real threat to Erengrad and Kostaltyn's position as a whole, if Nordland would be tempted to take coastal Troll Country to connect with Norscan possesions. And of course, it would give Katarin an ally to distract to Kostaltyn while she herself establishes herself further in-land. And while it could be argued that this role could be filled with Count von Raukov of Ostland, that province is in much the same position as Middenland and Wissenland here, being landlocked with only fellow Imperials and Kislevites for neighbors. Besides, the whole lore and point around Ostland is that of a defensive, besieged bulwark against the Chaos forces, just like Kislev. Nordland, on the hand, is free to go on the offensive against traditional enemies.

And lastly, the fact that Daemon Prince is fighting Nordland on the launch campaign would not be an issue, as this can be solved with the dynamic starting positions system, like in Warden & Paunch. When not playing Nordland, they would have settlements on the southern Norscan coast. When playing Nordland, they would not have that, as the early Nordland campaign would be focused on dealing with any Beastmen, invading Norscans and Marienburg.

What do you think guys, would Nordland make a good start within the Empire?

Fossoway

Too close to Middenland, and the Empire has far too many better options for both Legendary Lords and starting positions.

They'll keep Nordland as a punching bag for all invading forces from the north imo.

General_Hijalti#1213

It's a starting enemy so no.

Also what units would they bring.

TheWattman#7460

General_Hijalti said:

It's a starting enemy so no.

Also what units would they bring.

I provided that both in the old thread and here, an Imperial Naval theme.

davedave1124#4773

I like the idea of WE archers in Empire armour, they look pretty cool.

Captain_Rex#1635

Hard pass. Nordland is a generic fodder faction for the Godslayer and that’s it. It’s also to close to Middenland.

Missing Empire LLs:
- Emil Valgeir & Toddy for Middenland
- Elspeth von Draken
- Marius Leitdorf
- Kurt Helborg

Captain_Rex#1635

TheWattman said:

General_Hijalti said:

It's a starting enemy so no.

Also what units would they bring.

I provided that both in the old thread and here, an Imperial Naval theme.

Then you should argue for Marienburg, Edvard van der Kraal, Blades of Manaan and the Marienburg Landship.

That is a proper Naval theme for the Empire.

Nordland is just a punching bag starting enemy.

TheWattman#7460

ArneSo said:

Then you should argue for Marienburg, Edvard van der Kraal, Blades of Manaan and the Marienburg Landship.

That is a proper Naval theme for the Empire.

Nordland is just a punching bag starting enemy.

That's one version of it yes, but I expect the Landship to be centerpiece for Nuln and Marienburg is potential for a Vampire Coast update.

Arthas_Menethil#3421

TheWattman said:

ArneSo said:

Then you should argue for Marienburg, Edvard van der Kraal, Blades of Manaan and the Marienburg Landship.

That is a proper Naval theme for the Empire.

Nordland is just a punching bag starting enemy.

That's one version of it yes, but I expect the Landship to be centerpiece for Nuln and Marienburg is potential for a Vampire Coast update.

I don't see Marienburg being thrown into the Vampire Coast. Dogs of War Maybe but not the Vampire Coast.

Heretical_Cactus#7598

The 2 Region from the Empire that really deserve to be expanded upon with a Lord pack or even a "pseudo" Race pack would be Middeland and Nuln

THe Traditionalist and the Innovative

OdTengri#8235

TheWattman said:

What Im mainly focused is the lack of Leitdorf's Averland and the very squished state of the Empire in this version of the map. Consider what a Middenland or Wissenland campaign would be like here. You will hardly fight anyone except for fellow Imperials, Kislevites or Dwarfs here, which you really shouldn't do with so many chaos factions running around. Middenland's only option is to take Marienburg and then decide whether going across the sea is worth it (Sure Skrag is around but so isolated he shouldn't be a problem). Claiming Reikland and the Emperorship won't change that. Wissenland, which is only a minor 2-settlement province here, can only hope that Stirland is destroyed by Sylvania and then push east, but then again you run into a wall of Dwarf allies. Both of these provinces would, IMO, do better to be on the combined map only (just like Averland would be), while the actual Empire DLCs add expeditions (Cult of Ulric and Nuln expedition) outside the Empire.

By that logic Ostermark and Ostland are also prime candidates, possibly better ones.

TheWattman said:

What do you think guys, would Nordland make a good start within the Empire?

Not if Middenland is going to be there.

HeresyHound

Arthas_Menethil said:

TheWattman said:

ArneSo said:

Then you should argue for Marienburg, Edvard van der Kraal, Blades of Manaan and the Marienburg Landship.

That is a proper Naval theme for the Empire.

Nordland is just a punching bag starting enemy.

That's one version of it yes, but I expect the Landship to be centerpiece for Nuln and Marienburg is potential for a Vampire Coast update.

I don't see Marienburg being thrown into the Vampire Coast. Dogs of War Maybe but not the Vampire Coast.

I think people say that because of Mundvard, but if he ever did get added, preferably he would just have a cove in Marienburg

OdTengri#8235

HedonistHound said:

Arthas_Menethil said:

TheWattman said:

ArneSo said:

Then you should argue for Marienburg, Edvard van der Kraal, Blades of Manaan and the Marienburg Landship.

That is a proper Naval theme for the Empire.

Nordland is just a punching bag starting enemy.

That's one version of it yes, but I expect the Landship to be centerpiece for Nuln and Marienburg is potential for a Vampire Coast update.

I don't see Marienburg being thrown into the Vampire Coast. Dogs of War Maybe but not the Vampire Coast.

I think people say that because of Mundvard, but if he ever did get added, preferably he would just have a cove in Marienburg

Yeah... it sounds absurd but then you look at Sartosa and then think what if they add Munvard and then your like... Oh god no CA, DONT DO IT.

TheWattman#7460

OdTengri said:

By that logic Ostermark and Ostland are also prime candidates, possibly better ones.


Not if Middenland is going to be there.

I also said further down that Ostland is landlocked and not an ideal starting position, as its surrounded by Kislev and Empire and has a history of defensive stances, not aggressive ones like Nordland.

OdTengri#8235

TheWattman said:

OdTengri said:

By that logic Ostermark and Ostland are also prime candidates, possibly better ones.


Not if Middenland is going to be there.

I also said further down that Ostland is landlocked and not an ideal starting position, as its surrounded by Kislev and Empire and has a history of defensive stances, not aggressive ones like Nordland.

Doesn't change the fact that Nordland would be right next to Middenland. I mean... If you thing Ostaland and Ostermark are too land locked... than I guess that a Nuln Expedition or anything else of that sort would be better.

lcmiracle#6727

Marius Leitdorf and Valmir von Raukov would make for interesting FLC lords, I feel. There's also the possibility of a Mortkin DLC/whatever campaign that can involve the von Raukovs.

Nuln would be a prime companion for the hopefully Thamurkhan DLC, which hopefully is a multiple faction expansion involving Nurgle, Nuln, Chaos Dwarfs and DoW (as it went through the Border Princes and Lietpold the black briefly fought him).

I sincerely hope Middenland would be a DLC, for what though, I can't think of anything. If nothing else, I hope at least KoWW and Knights Panthers can get added as FLC just so I can confederate Todbringer and build a middenlander army.

Leitdorf... well, there's always the Revolting Moot of 2502?

At least, I don't think we need a second Battle for the Black Fire Pass and insulting a Bretonnian lord's wife to his face, while undeniably satisfying, does not make for an interesting campaign...

Heretical_Cactus#7598

OdTengri said:

HedonistHound said:

Arthas_Menethil said:

TheWattman said:

ArneSo said:

Then you should argue for Marienburg, Edvard van der Kraal, Blades of Manaan and the Marienburg Landship.

That is a proper Naval theme for the Empire.

Nordland is just a punching bag starting enemy.

That's one version of it yes, but I expect the Landship to be centerpiece for Nuln and Marienburg is potential for a Vampire Coast update.

I don't see Marienburg being thrown into the Vampire Coast. Dogs of War Maybe but not the Vampire Coast.

I think people say that because of Mundvard, but if he ever did get added, preferably he would just have a cove in Marienburg

Yeah... it sounds absurd but then you look at Sartosa and then think what if they add Munvard and then your like... Oh god no CA, DONT DO IT.

I wouldn't be surprised, disappointed yes, sad yes too

But not surpised

RikRiorik#9890

With the express understanding that Middenland takes precedence over all I can always get behind more content for the Empire.

General_Hijalti#1213

TheWattman said:

General_Hijalti said:

It's a starting enemy so no.

Also what units would they bring.

I provided that both in the old thread and here, an Imperial Naval theme.

So you say. But what units. Theme is meaningless if you can't name units. Also what would they to improve the empire.


Kind of meaningless as the empire is very unlikely to get 3 more lord packs

#568367

I wouldn't say no, but Middenland and Nuln should take far more priority.

TheWattman#7460

General_Hijalti said:

So you say. But what units. Theme is meaningless if you can't name units. Also what would they to improve the empire.

Kind of meaningless as the empire is very unlikely to get 3 more lord packs

I literally provided that in the old thread, but here we go:

Admiral Lord - Short Range/Duelist

Sons of Manann - Anti-infantry magical cavalry
Marines - medium dual weapon infantry
Norscan Mercenaries
Eonir Archers
Celestial Hurricanum if it doesn't come with other expansions.
Nordland Seahawks - Spearmen ROR

Kn_Gars#2718

TheWattman said:

OdTengri said:

By that logic Ostermark and Ostland are also prime candidates, possibly better ones.


Not if Middenland is going to be there.

I also said further down that Ostland is landlocked and not an ideal starting position, as its surrounded by Kislev and Empire and has a history of defensive stances, not aggressive ones like Nordland.

Feel free to argue the case for Nordland as a faction all you want but let's stick to the facts. Ostland is not "landlocked" nor does it has a "history of defensive stances" in the lore.

Ostland is only landlocked because of the decision by CA to give Nordland the entire coast (probably because their design of Erengrad broke the connection between the inner parts of Ostland and the coast). If portrayed correctly then Ostland should have a costal settlement as well.

As for being "defensive" it was Valmir von Raukov and Ostland who made the most agressive response of all when the tribes of Norsca began to raide on a new and larger scale in 2512, While Nordland only took defensive steps Valmir led the Ostlanders in a series of brutal reprisals into Norsca itself in 2513 (and implied in 2514 as well) which would in turn provoke the invasion of Ostland by Lord Mortkin in 2515. So not only does Ostland taken the offensive into Norsca, you also have a ready made opponent LL for Valmir von Raukov if one is needed.

The simple fact is that there is no need for a history of agression to justify a particular Empire LL or starting position. Neither Karl Franz nor Volkmar are noted in the lore for going around making war on the rest of the Empire and they do just fine as Empire LLs. And the lore matters little when most players decide how to play, a lot would play Von Raukov just as agressivly as they ever would play Gausser.

Valmir von Raukov arguably also has the advantage as a character, where Gausser is a melee lord Von Raukov would be an Empire hybrid lord since he is both an Elector Count with a Runefang and a horse archer with a magic bow.

At the end of the day both Gausser & Nordland and Von Raukov & Ostland are weaker entries as FLC even among the Elector Counts. (None of the are DLC material.) On the existing map Boris Todbringer is the superior choice and if we exclude him from the race CA is more likely to go with one of the characters which actually had 8th edition rules & models. Of course we don't know if the Empire will get any FLC at all, why give away access to the Empire for free when CA can have people buy either DLC or WH1 to get it?

OdTengri#8235

TheWattman said:

General_Hijalti said:

So you say. But what units. Theme is meaningless if you can't name units. Also what would they to improve the empire.

Kind of meaningless as the empire is very unlikely to get 3 more lord packs

I literally provided that in the old thread, but here we go:

Admiral Lord - Short Range/Duelist

Sons of Manann - Anti-infantry magical cavalry
Marines - medium dual weapon infantry
Norscan Mercenaries
Eonir Archers
Celestial Hurricanum if it doesn't come with other expansions.
Nordland Seahawks - Spearmen ROR

Norscans and Elves.... for the Empire...