Unit Formations and what could have been...

Wyvax#7456

So back in the early development of WH1 we know that bodyguards were planned for generals and that unit formations were incorporated into the game. Somewhere in development however it all got scrapped, but the code still exists and several modders have incorporated them into their own projects with touch ups of their own. A really good example would be in this video here, with race appropriate and TT and TW friendly formations for the Dwarfs, Empire and High Elves respectively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coK2VPx3Ej4&ab

Now this discussion isn't about the mods though, there just an excellent visual representation of what I'm getting at. There's so much tactical choice available for the player, that's been there in every TW game prior and existed as fluff and abstractions in the TT (static models don't allow for much articulation of course lol) yet were stripped out of the final product. Personally, I find this baffling for what's supposed to be the premier real-time-tactics franchise of our time. In the video above we see dwarfen testudos completely neuter incoming fire from Sisters of Avelorn, a return of the defensive phalanx formations of Rome, Med 2 and Rome 2 (albiet buggy) and Spanish Tercios that open up new defensive layouts for gunpowder armies. Yet, none of that exists in what we have.

So my point being, what's y'all's thoughts on what could have been here? Personally, I like TW:WH for the setting, the vibrancy and the characters, but strip all of that away and the base Total War formula feels really freaking hollow and mediocre to me. I don't think lack of formations is the whole reason why, but it's a pretty big one IMO.

Shatilov#5699

It seems that the code is already built in, in addition to the animations, probably because the formations increase the effectiveness of a unit, make them OP.

Taking examples from the video above,

1 - Not a single dwarf entity was killed from all that arrows, which kind off isnt realistic.
2 - Few spearmen were killed from the cavalry push from Demigryphs and Oger Riders, which is kinda nothing when comparing high teir Cav vs Low Level Entry Spearmen unit.

none the less, I would love if these formation settings, where kinda nerfed, and added to the game.

And it should introduce other type of Formation instead of only one type.

I agree with you.

NoSkill4U#6552

Yes, these formations make the game look a lot better. Professional troops differ through more then just their equipment.

Personally, I think they just scrapped it in WH I when they ran into issues and didn t have as much budget to work with.
After all, it´s more on the eye-candy side of things.


Also I just hate Empire spearmen without shields not beeing pikemen...

T_MACCABBEE

Shatilov said:

It seems that the code is already built in, in addition to the animations, probably because the formations increase the effectiveness of a unit, make them OP.

Taking examples from the video above,

1 - Not a single dwarf entity was killed from all that arrows, which kind off isnt realistic.

I agree with you.

That's the point. In 3K, turtle formations would give 100% block chance which counters ranged units but allows you to hard counter them with infantry.
Spear walls would also absolutely massacre cavalry but make them extremely vulnerable to ranged units because they are wide open and immobile.

RikRiorik#9890

It’s not a table top thing and I don’t miss it per se but had it been in it would of course have been another layer that would have been welcomed.

Shatilov#5699

T_MACCABBEE said:

Shatilov said:

It seems that the code is already built in, in addition to the animations, probably because the formations increase the effectiveness of a unit, make them OP.

Taking examples from the video above,

1 - Not a single dwarf entity was killed from all that arrows, which kind off isnt realistic.

I agree with you.

That's the point. In 3K, turtle formations would give 100% block chance which counters ranged units but allows you to hard counter them with infantry.
Spear walls would also absolutely massacre cavalry but make them extremely vulnerable to ranged units because they are wide open and immobile.

Sure, but when u consider what a spear can do against a Demigryph, you need to change some settings, to make them able to stop them, yet still not overpower them.

Wyvax#7456

RikRiorik said:

It’s not a table top thing and I don’t miss it per se but had it been in it would of course have been another layer that would have been welcomed.

It's rather difficult to implement formation tactics into static blocks of minis. Especially loose formation, how the heck would that even be possible, lol. But like I said in the op, the TT kind of had the concepts baked into the units themselves, for example the second rank of spears being able to attack with the front is exactly what we see in pike a phalanx formations, but it's not in the game. Still real time is already such a massive departure from turn based that it's precisely why these IRL and in lore tactics are necessary. I can't count the times that unit formations have come in clutch for me in a past TW title.

Also, it's not quite the same but the concept is similar enough to warrant it; weapon switching for units like Black Orcs is nearly identical mechanically speaking and as such deserves a shout out in this thread.

zuendl86

I love this sync animation mods... or videos out there!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD-xbC3X7eY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB5ivqZm0No

Rewan#2358

I think WH went with the Thrones of Britannia route : There's no formations because units are considered "in formation" by default.

As far as 3K goes, formations are cool but too easily disrupted by single entities. So let's not even imagine with WH monsters and magic added in the mix...

Lord_Zarkov#7252

Wyvax said:

RikRiorik said:

It’s not a table top thing and I don’t miss it per se but had it been in it would of course have been another layer that would have been welcomed.

It's rather difficult to implement formation tactics into static blocks of minis. Especially loose formation, how the heck would that even be possible, lol. But like I said in the op, the TT kind of had the concepts baked into the units themselves, for example the second rank of spears being able to attack with the front is exactly what we see in pike a phalanx formations, but it's not in the game. Still real time is already such a massive departure from turn based that it's precisely why these IRL and in lore tactics are necessary. I can't count the times that unit formations have come in clutch for me in a past TW title.

Also, it's not quite the same but the concept is similar enough to warrant it; weapon switching for units like Black Orcs is nearly identical mechanically speaking and as such deserves a shout out in this thread.

Loose formation was actually a special rule some units had in TT called ‘skirmishers’.
The Lustria campaign even had rules that allowed any unit with a musician to adopt it, albeit without some of the normal bonuses.

Made them easier to manoeuvre and harder for missile troops to hit.

Prior to 8th it was fairly free in that you could position the models however you wanted as long as each model was within 1” of another and they all linked up. They then formed into a more normal formation if they got in melee range.

8th made them a bit more of a pain as they had to end their movements in a box formation but 1” apart instead of touching and IIRC it gave them a fixed LOS arc whereas it used to be 360 degrees.

Wyvax#7456

zuendl86 said:

I love this sync animation mods... or videos out there!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD-xbC3X7eY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB5ivqZm0No

I've seen the wardancer one but those swordsmen fights are plain gorgeous! Loved the Dark Souls roll tossed in for the fantasy flair lol. That's the sort of stuff that really incentivises players to zoom in and just enjoy the show. Of course simpler blocking animations do just fine for most encounters.

Wyvax#7456

Lord_Zarkov said:

Wyvax said:

RikRiorik said:

It’s not a table top thing and I don’t miss it per se but had it been in it would of course have been another layer that would have been welcomed.

It's rather difficult to implement formation tactics into static blocks of minis. Especially loose formation, how the heck would that even be possible, lol. But like I said in the op, the TT kind of had the concepts baked into the units themselves, for example the second rank of spears being able to attack with the front is exactly what we see in pike a phalanx formations, but it's not in the game. Still real time is already such a massive departure from turn based that it's precisely why these IRL and in lore tactics are necessary. I can't count the times that unit formations have come in clutch for me in a past TW title.

Also, it's not quite the same but the concept is similar enough to warrant it; weapon switching for units like Black Orcs is nearly identical mechanically speaking and as such deserves a shout out in this thread.

Loose formation was actually a special rule some units had in TT called ‘skirmishers’.
The Lustria campaign even had rules that allowed any unit with a musician to adopt it, albeit without some of the normal bonuses.

Made them easier to manoeuvre and harder for missile troops to hit.

Prior to 8th it was fairly free in that you could position the models however you wanted as long as each model was within 1” of another and they all linked up. They then formed into a more normal formation if they got in melee range.

8th made them a bit more of a pain as they had to end their movements in a box formation but 1” apart instead of touching and IIRC it gave them a fixed LOS arc whereas it used to be 360 degrees.

That's pretty cool, I didn't know about that. Though it sounds like it was somewhat tedious to move around every turn. At least with the blocks there were those frames that players could push about.

davedave1124#4773

The fact that they planned to put it in tells me they tested it and found it didn’t work.

CaesarSahlertz

Most of those units are tightly packed making them get destroyed by magic. That was probably a large factor in it.

Wyvax#7456

Rewan said:

I think WH went with the Thrones of Britannia route : There's no formations because units are considered "in formation" by default.

As far as 3K goes, formations are cool but too easily disrupted by single entities. So let's not even imagine with WH monsters and magic added in the mix...

This already one formation already in the game and that's Bretonnia's wedge. Somewhat underwhelming IMO but that's more to do with the lackluster bonuses it conveys. ToB had no formations in it at all you say? For a pure historical title that's a shameful display. Default a unit of spearmen cannot be in a schiltrom formation by default nor a shield wall. That's a lot of essential gameplay lost from med 2 and Atilla.

As for the issue with single entities and magic, yeah it's pretty obvious that they had a part to play in the decision, but they not so oppressive to render formations useless. Front lines are staggered and SEMs cannot be everywhere at once, plus the wound mechanic is coming and will even that playing field.

saweendra#3399

Wyvax said:

Rewan said:

I think WH went with the Thrones of Britannia route : There's no formations because units are considered "in formation" by default.

As far as 3K goes, formations are cool but too easily disrupted by single entities. So let's not even imagine with WH monsters and magic added in the mix...

This already one formation already in the game and that's Bretonnia's wedge. Somewhat underwhelming IMO but that's more to do with the lackluster bonuses it conveys. ToB had no formations in it at all you say? For a pure historical title that's a shameful display. Default a unit of spearmen cannot be in a schiltrom formation by default nor a shield wall. That's a lot of essential gameplay lost from med 2 and Atilla.

As for the issue with single entities and magic, yeah it's pretty obvious that they had a part to play in the decision, but they not so oppressive to render formations useless. Front lines are staggered and SEMs cannot be everywhere at once, plus the wound mechanic is coming and will even that playing field.

The bonus from its actually pretty bonkers its the fact it goes in to wedge that makes it useless.

People some times click it right before a charfe connects to get the stats but prevent the unit going in to wedge.

Lord_Zarkov#7252

Wyvax said:

Lord_Zarkov said:

Wyvax said:

RikRiorik said:

It’s not a table top thing and I don’t miss it per se but had it been in it would of course have been another layer that would have been welcomed.

It's rather difficult to implement formation tactics into static blocks of minis. Especially loose formation, how the heck would that even be possible, lol. But like I said in the op, the TT kind of had the concepts baked into the units themselves, for example the second rank of spears being able to attack with the front is exactly what we see in pike a phalanx formations, but it's not in the game. Still real time is already such a massive departure from turn based that it's precisely why these IRL and in lore tactics are necessary. I can't count the times that unit formations have come in clutch for me in a past TW title.

Also, it's not quite the same but the concept is similar enough to warrant it; weapon switching for units like Black Orcs is nearly identical mechanically speaking and as such deserves a shout out in this thread.

Loose formation was actually a special rule some units had in TT called ‘skirmishers’.
The Lustria campaign even had rules that allowed any unit with a musician to adopt it, albeit without some of the normal bonuses.

Made them easier to manoeuvre and harder for missile troops to hit.

Prior to 8th it was fairly free in that you could position the models however you wanted as long as each model was within 1” of another and they all linked up. They then formed into a more normal formation if they got in melee range.

8th made them a bit more of a pain as they had to end their movements in a box formation but 1” apart instead of touching and IIRC it gave them a fixed LOS arc whereas it used to be 360 degrees.

That's pretty cool, I didn't know about that. Though it sounds like it was somewhat tedious to move around every turn. At least with the blocks there were those frames that players could push about.

The pre-8th version was ok, not really much different than 40k or AoS plays now, and it was usually only for 1-2 units max unless you were playing LM or WE (and a lot of armies had none at all).

The 8th version was a massive faff though as you had to be more exact about it, to the point people started building special movement trays with spacers built in which kind of defeated the point a bit.

The 8th Ed Skirmishers rules was a massive nerf, especially for melee units like dryads and wardancers. You still got the benefits vs shooting (especially vs war machines), but lost most of the others and gained a bunch of new downsides in addition to keeping the old ones (no rank bonus, can’t disrupt ranks).

Wyvax#7456

saweendra said:

Wyvax said:

Rewan said:

I think WH went with the Thrones of Britannia route : There's no formations because units are considered "in formation" by default.

As far as 3K goes, formations are cool but too easily disrupted by single entities. So let's not even imagine with WH monsters and magic added in the mix...

This already one formation already in the game and that's Bretonnia's wedge. Somewhat underwhelming IMO but that's more to do with the lackluster bonuses it conveys. ToB had no formations in it at all you say? For a pure historical title that's a shameful display. Default a unit of spearmen cannot be in a schiltrom formation by default nor a shield wall. That's a lot of essential gameplay lost from med 2 and Atilla.

As for the issue with single entities and magic, yeah it's pretty obvious that they had a part to play in the decision, but they not so oppressive to render formations useless. Front lines are staggered and SEMs cannot be everywhere at once, plus the wound mechanic is coming and will even that playing field.

The bonus from its actually pretty bonkers its the fact it goes in to wedge that makes it useless.

People some times click it right before a charfe connects to get the stats but prevent the unit going in to wedge.

For me it's the fact that I've played so many thousands of hours of Med 2 that I'm accustomed to how devastating a proper cavalry charge is. With cav in general in WH, unless they're fighting something super fragile, what you get is the enemy health chunked, many dudes flying but very few actual casualties from a good charge. It isn't the fault of Bret's wedge system though, it's due to the waterlogged sponge hitpools of standard units in WH, where any dude can take a half dozen hits with an axe and die on the seventh and can magically absorb arrows and bullets up to an arbitrary point where they fall dead. There's no physics in the combat and it feels like everyone is using LARP gear instead of actual weapons.

But that's a completely different criticism of mine and separate to the topic, though there are clear connections from a game design standpoint.

Sonofhashut

Except Tabletop didn't have it. Comment removed.

Fingolfin_the-Golden#2157

You can create your own formations in game with the mouse though. I don’t get it.
Shields and being invincible is the only difference and not good ones.

Wyvax#7456

Sonofhashut said:

Except Tabletop didn't have it. Comment removed. .

It also didn't have Cathay, Kislev, Norsca and Vampire Coast outside of some niche supplements, nor was it in real time, yet here we are.

Wyvax#7456

Fingolfin_the-Golden said:

You can create your own formations in game with the mouse though. I don’t get it.
Shields and being invincible is the only difference and not good ones.

Unit breadth and depth are necessary and the bare minimum for formations but it's like needing basic arithmetic before you can do algebra. Phalanxes don't exist and cannot be created, neither can testudos, schiltroms, tercios, Cantabrian circles, cavalry wedges outside of Bret's knights, even basic shield walls or loose formation to lessen the impact of arrowfire on your men. I suppose I could use four units of halberdiers to create a single massive square of pikes, but a basic regiment of troops with the appropriate knowledge of basic tactics and military training should be able to pull it off all ready. The more options we as players have, the better the gameplay can be.

Fingolfin_the-Golden#2157

Wyvax said:

Fingolfin_the-Golden said:

You can create your own formations in game with the mouse though. I don’t get it.
Shields and being invincible is the only difference and not good ones.

The more options we as players have, the better the gameplay can be.

I definitely will not argue with that.

VikingHuscal1066#5774

I think that the human races and such could really useful for a good amount of races, especially the Empire and DoW/SR.

They would certainly need them for their pikemen and such to work more effectively.

Rutgerhuer

My suspicion is that they were removed so that they could be re-added as a race mechanics, probably for an eventual Dogs of War faction. Why? because CA has done this with several other legacy mechanics like Loyalty and Supplies (Repanse) and obviously Ze-Wedge for Brettonia.

It also helps with the Arcade-ey approach to the game (which helps with sales), limits the need for testing and balancing (made more difficult because of faction diversity), etc.

It's one of my main complaints about the game though, wish it was in, oh well maybe CA will implement it with Dogs of War faction.

saweendra#3399

Wyvax said:

saweendra said:

Wyvax said:

Rewan said:

I think WH went with the Thrones of Britannia route : There's no formations because units are considered "in formation" by default.

As far as 3K goes, formations are cool but too easily disrupted by single entities. So let's not even imagine with WH monsters and magic added in the mix...

This already one formation already in the game and that's Bretonnia's wedge. Somewhat underwhelming IMO but that's more to do with the lackluster bonuses it conveys. ToB had no formations in it at all you say? For a pure historical title that's a shameful display. Default a unit of spearmen cannot be in a schiltrom formation by default nor a shield wall. That's a lot of essential gameplay lost from med 2 and Atilla.

As for the issue with single entities and magic, yeah it's pretty obvious that they had a part to play in the decision, but they not so oppressive to render formations useless. Front lines are staggered and SEMs cannot be everywhere at once, plus the wound mechanic is coming and will even that playing field.

The bonus from its actually pretty bonkers its the fact it goes in to wedge that makes it useless.

People some times click it right before a charfe connects to get the stats but prevent the unit going in to wedge.

For me it's the fact that I've played so many thousands of hours of Med 2 that I'm accustomed to how devastating a proper cavalry charge is. With cav in general in WH, unless they're fighting something super fragile, what you get is the enemy health chunked, many dudes flying but very few actual casualties from a good charge. It isn't the fault of Bret's wedge system though, it's due to the waterlogged sponge hitpools of standard units in WH, where any dude can take a half dozen hits with an axe and die on the seventh and can magically absorb arrows and bullets up to an arbitrary point where they fall dead. There's no physics in the combat and it feels like everyone is using LARP gear instead of actual weapons.

But that's a completely different criticism of mine and separate to the topic, though there are clear connections from a game design standpoint.

Not really i am bret main in mp and i shock cav perform perfectly well in base fourm.

The hp story is actually not true not even one bit ,base hp for most infantry bar black orcs is actually below 100 hp.

So damage for empire knights base line is overall on first attack after charge is 78.

Now if you add impact damage. Which is speed * mass and multiplyer the over all damge by 1st attack easily exceed 100 damge.


What empire knights lack is literally ap. Which is what your seeing as units serving and MD rolls. And the occasional ward saves.

So it literally has nothing to do with hp system but everything to do with armour system and i think this is the superior design since cavalry requires actaul akill to use rather oh i charge i win.

Though in campaign things are quite different since there are ways to add ridiculous amounts of armour and ward save to a unit making most cavalry useless.

Don't belive me get a unit of gors and get a good rear charge at full speed on a unbraced unit you will see what i am saying

Steph#6413

Sonofhashut said:

Except Tabletop didn't have it. So go play a history game, and never come back.

It didn't have animated models either. Should we ask CA to remove all the animation from the game and just use static model? Maybe remove the effect for spells and just see the HP loss on the unit cards.

saweendra#3399

Steph_F_David said:

Sonofhashut said:

Except Tabletop didn't have it. So go play a history game, and never come back.

It didn't have animated models either. Should we ask CA to remove all the animation from the game and just use static model? Maybe remove the effect for spells and just see the HP loss on the unit cards.

No but it should be thematically given out. Sheild wall shpuld be a thing for dwarfs


Tesduo and pike formations for southern realms or tilea..etc.

It shouldn't be handed out like candy

RyanSewell#2107

saweendra said:

Steph_F_David said:

Sonofhashut said:

Except Tabletop didn't have it. So go play a history game, and never come back.

It didn't have animated models either. Should we ask CA to remove all the animation from the game and just use static model? Maybe remove the effect for spells and just see the HP loss on the unit cards.

No but it should be thematically given out. Sheild wall shpuld be a thing for dwarfs


Tesduo and pike formations for southern realms or tilea..etc.

It shouldn't be handed out like candy

Minimally it could have been fun, we got the most important one with the Brets. The other faction it really would have mattered for were Beastmen but we didn't get mixed herds either.

The bigger omission is unit banners, musicians etc.

T_MACCABBEE

saweendra said:

Steph_F_David said:

Sonofhashut said:

Except Tabletop didn't have it. So go play a history game, and never come back.

It didn't have animated models either. Should we ask CA to remove all the animation from the game and just use static model? Maybe remove the effect for spells and just see the HP loss on the unit cards.

No but it should be thematically given out. Sheild wall shpuld be a thing for dwarfs


Tesduo and pike formations for southern realms or tilea..etc.

It shouldn't be handed out like candy

Except that no formations exist in the game right now.
Even Cathay's formation attack is just a buff.

saweendra#3399

T_MACCABBEE said:

saweendra said:

Steph_F_David said:

Sonofhashut said:

Except Tabletop didn't have it. So go play a history game, and never come back.

It didn't have animated models either. Should we ask CA to remove all the animation from the game and just use static model? Maybe remove the effect for spells and just see the HP loss on the unit cards.

No but it should be thematically given out. Sheild wall shpuld be a thing for dwarfs


Tesduo and pike formations for southern realms or tilea..etc.

It shouldn't be handed out like candy

Except that no formations exist in the game right now.
Even Cathay's formation attack is just a buff.

lance formation bretonnia togglable , un togglable loose formations . do you play the game?

cathay formation is not a stat buff it is a AI rule that make cathay units fight in formation , unlike every other unit in game bar Lance formation. who told its stat buff?



and there is actually decent amount of formations in game files we just don't have acess to them in vanila