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We’ve been seeing this with all of CA’s titles. They take away past elements to add new ones rather than just adding on to what they did in the past. So for Warhammer, the diversity of races, magic, art, etc… were steps forward, but they also took steps backwards by dumbing down the gameplay.
Imagine if WH3 took the good elements from every past game and combined it. It would no doubt be the game of the decade.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
We’ve been seeing this with all of CA’s titles. They take away past elements to add new ones rather than just adding on to what they did in the past. So for Warhammer, the diversity of races, magic, art, etc… were steps forward, but they also took steps backwards by dumbing down the gameplay.
Imagine if WH3 took the good elements from every past game and combined it. It would no doubt be the game of the decade.
lot of the old stuf came back because wh and big budget, that said trash like 1 hp system can stay where they are
Except Tabletop didn't have it. So go play a history game, and never come back.
It didn't have animated models either. Should we ask CA to remove all the animation from the game and just use static model? Maybe remove the effect for spells and just see the HP loss on the unit cards.
No but it should be thematically given out. Sheild wall shpuld be a thing for dwarfs
Tesduo and pike formations for southern realms or tilea..etc.
It shouldn't be handed out like candy
I seem to recall 8th edition dwarfs army book has an army wide shield wall skill
Except Tabletop didn't have it. So go play a history game, and never come back.
It didn't have animated models either. Should we ask CA to remove all the animation from the game and just use static model? Maybe remove the effect for spells and just see the HP loss on the unit cards.
No but it should be thematically given out. Sheild wall shpuld be a thing for dwarfs
Tesduo and pike formations for southern realms or tilea..etc.
It shouldn't be handed out like candy
Except that no formations exist in the game right now. Even Cathay's formation attack is just a buff.
lance formation bretonnia togglable , un togglable loose formations . do you play the game?
cathay formation is not a stat buff it is a AI rule that make cathay units fight in formation , unlike every other unit in game bar Lance formation. who told its stat buff?
and there is actually decent amount of formations in game files we just don't have acess to them in vanila
Formation attack is literally just reworded expert charge defense + charge reflection.
Except Tabletop didn't have it. So go play a history game, and never come back.
It didn't have animated models either. Should we ask CA to remove all the animation from the game and just use static model? Maybe remove the effect for spells and just see the HP loss on the unit cards.
No but it should be thematically given out. Sheild wall shpuld be a thing for dwarfs
Tesduo and pike formations for southern realms or tilea..etc.
It shouldn't be handed out like candy
Except that no formations exist in the game right now. Even Cathay's formation attack is just a buff.
lance formation bretonnia togglable , un togglable loose formations . do you play the game?
cathay formation is not a stat buff it is a AI rule that make cathay units fight in formation , unlike every other unit in game bar Lance formation. who told its stat buff?
and there is actually decent amount of formations in game files we just don't have acess to them in vanila
Formation attack is literally just reworded expert charge defense + charge reflection.
where did you get that info? who told you this lie?
it expert charge defence is separate thing on the unit abelites, and all spear and helberd units have charge defelection now.
and cathay also has separate ability if the unit doesn't move which work-in two stages. another reason why they suck in domination mode where you have to move
Except Tabletop didn't have it. So go play a history game, and never come back.
It didn't have animated models either. Should we ask CA to remove all the animation from the game and just use static model? Maybe remove the effect for spells and just see the HP loss on the unit cards.
No but it should be thematically given out. Sheild wall shpuld be a thing for dwarfs
Tesduo and pike formations for southern realms or tilea..etc.
It shouldn't be handed out like candy
Except that no formations exist in the game right now. Even Cathay's formation attack is just a buff.
lance formation bretonnia togglable , un togglable loose formations . do you play the game?
cathay formation is not a stat buff it is a AI rule that make cathay units fight in formation , unlike every other unit in game bar Lance formation. who told its stat buff?
and there is actually decent amount of formations in game files we just don't have acess to them in vanila
Formation attack is literally just reworded expert charge defense + charge reflection.
and cathay also has separate ability if the unit doesn't move which work-in two stages. another reason why they suck in domination mode where you have to move
Yes, expert charge defense, which requires a unit to be braced. What you described is literally how bracing works in these games. CA has a long history of taking old mechanics and slapping a new name on to it and people keep pretending they're new mechanics.
Except Tabletop didn't have it. So go play a history game, and never come back.
It didn't have animated models either. Should we ask CA to remove all the animation from the game and just use static model? Maybe remove the effect for spells and just see the HP loss on the unit cards.
No but it should be thematically given out. Sheild wall shpuld be a thing for dwarfs
Tesduo and pike formations for southern realms or tilea..etc.
It shouldn't be handed out like candy
Except that no formations exist in the game right now. Even Cathay's formation attack is just a buff.
lance formation bretonnia togglable , un togglable loose formations . do you play the game?
cathay formation is not a stat buff it is a AI rule that make cathay units fight in formation , unlike every other unit in game bar Lance formation. who told its stat buff?
and there is actually decent amount of formations in game files we just don't have acess to them in vanila
Formation attack is literally just reworded expert charge defense + charge reflection.
and cathay also has separate ability if the unit doesn't move which work-in two stages. another reason why they suck in domination mode where you have to move
Yes, expert charge defense, which requires a unit to be braced. What you described is literally how bracing works in these games. CA has a long history of taking old mechanics and slapping a new name on to it and people keep pretending they're new mechanics.
dude formation attack is not expert charge defense its a different thing from rome 2, which forces the Ai to stay in formation
again where did you get this info?
and expert charge defence is it removes the charge bonus of any unit infanry or large as long unit is braced and getting frontal charged.
what i described is a another passive ability cathay has.
also what the stabnding still buff is defensive stance.
now show me your proof?
A lot of fancy words that basically mean nothing. Not explain to me how this is any different from any existing braced mechanic that leads up to charged defense and charge reflection because we know that vague words like "making unit beefy" is only when the yang bonus is up with the MD buff where you can actually see them getting visible numerical buffs, and fighting in formation means completely nothing when every single unit in TW already fights in default formation by design. What formation does this mean? Shield wall? Spear wall? We have already seen jade warriors in gameplay and they don't do anything special at all. Even when supposedly staying still like what the youtubers say, they scatter all the same in battle just like every other unit.
And no I don't care how many videos you try to put up to excuse CA, formation attack is still nothing like an actual formation in other Total Wars, like the circle or hollowed square formation TW 3K.
also what the stabnding still buff is defensive stance.
now show me your proof?
A lot of fancy words that basically mean nothing. Not explain to me how this is any different from any existing braced mechanic that leads up to charged defense and charge reflection because we know that vague words like "making unit beefy" is only when the yang bonus is up with the MD buff where you can actually see them getting visible numerical buffs, and fighting in formation means completely nothing when every single unit in TW already fights in default formation by design. What formation does this mean? Shield wall? Spear wall? We have already seen jade warriors in gameplay and they don't do anything special at all. Even when supposedly staying still like what the youtubers say, they scatter all the same in battle just like every other unit.
Its not saying they are not supposed to scatter it never did that even in rome 2.
It means the unit ai will try to get back to gather much more than now. And stay in formation more rather than charging wildly when a charge order is issued.
This also means if cathay infantry gets engaged they have very little chance of disengaging. And they are pretty sticky. And they don't mix with enemy units
Its a double edged sword. Not a net benifit.
Benifit is since they don't loose what ever number of ranks you put them in and when charging do not get some models inside the enemy ranks aka what happens to sisters of slaughter and gets attacked on multiple anglles
And since ranks are precived the amount of models actually fighting the enemy is less so better at defending
And better at trapping chariots ....etc since they keep their ranks better.
Conss
They can disengage easily if a model gets surrounded
They will not do as much damge on attack order compared to regular infantry since number of models that attacking is limited
The ai can get in to bad situations of path finding
And no I don't care how many videos you try to put up to excuse CA, formation attack is still nothing like an actual formation in other Total Wars, like the circle or hollowed square formation TW 3K.
Its not a formation there is one set formation for most units only thing you change is number of ranks.
The only unit that can switch to a formation is bretonnian cavalry.
I think WH went with the Thrones of Britannia route : There's no formations because units are considered "in formation" by default.
As far as 3K goes, formations are cool but too easily disrupted by single entities. So let's not even imagine with WH monsters and magic added in the mix...
This already one formation already in the game and that's Bretonnia's wedge. Somewhat underwhelming IMO but that's more to do with the lackluster bonuses it conveys. ToB had no formations in it at all you say? For a pure historical title that's a shameful display. Default a unit of spearmen cannot be in a schiltrom formation by default nor a shield wall. That's a lot of essential gameplay lost from med 2 and Atilla.
As for the issue with single entities and magic, yeah it's pretty obvious that they had a part to play in the decision, but they not so oppressive to render formations useless. Front lines are staggered and SEMs cannot be everywhere at once, plus the wound mechanic is coming and will even that playing field.
The bonus from its actually pretty bonkers its the fact it goes in to wedge that makes it useless.
People some times click it right before a charfe connects to get the stats but prevent the unit going in to wedge.
For me it's the fact that I've played so many thousands of hours of Med 2 that I'm accustomed to how devastating a proper cavalry charge is. With cav in general in WH, unless they're fighting something super fragile, what you get is the enemy health chunked, many dudes flying but very few actual casualties from a good charge. It isn't the fault of Bret's wedge system though, it's due to the waterlogged sponge hitpools of standard units in WH, where any dude can take a half dozen hits with an axe and die on the seventh and can magically absorb arrows and bullets up to an arbitrary point where they fall dead. There's no physics in the combat and it feels like everyone is using LARP gear instead of actual weapons.
But that's a completely different criticism of mine and separate to the topic, though there are clear connections from a game design standpoint.
Not really i am bret main in mp and i shock cav perform perfectly well in base fourm.
The hp story is actually not true not even one bit ,base hp for most infantry bar black orcs is actually below 100 hp.
So damage for empire knights base line is overall on first attack after charge is 78.
Now if you add impact damage. Which is speed * mass and multiplyer the over all damge by 1st attack easily exceed 100 damge.
What empire knights lack is literally ap. Which is what your seeing as units serving and MD rolls. And the occasional ward saves.
So it literally has nothing to do with hp system but everything to do with armour system and i think this is the superior design since cavalry requires actaul akill to use rather oh i charge i win.
Though in campaign things are quite different since there are ways to add ridiculous amounts of armour and ward save to a unit making most cavalry useless.
Don't belive me get a unit of gors and get a good rear charge at full speed on a unbraced unit you will see what i am saying
The way armor values are calculated and how much damage is absorbed on an attack is also a major issue I have with the WH iteration of TW, but I've beat that horse to death already in several other threads. Suffice to say, it's not a very logical or intuitive system.
1 - Not a single dwarf entity was killed from all that arrows, which kind off isnt realistic.
What is unrealistic about arrows bouncing off strong compact men in heavy plate armor and shields? Dwarfs have much better strength to area ratio and supposedly good steel quality.
Give muskets the ignore parry trait and we have full realism.
And no I don't care how many videos you try to put up to excuse CA, formation attack is still nothing like an actual formation in other Total Wars, like the circle or hollowed square formation TW 3K.
Quit whining so much dude.
I hate it when people try to act like all the stuff CA has added in with the TW Warhammer games means nothing just because they don't have unit formations.
Yeah, I'd like unit formations to come back, but I can actually understand how they'd be a little hard to factor in at firs when considering all the different types of units in the Warhammer world.
I think WH went with the Thrones of Britannia route : There's no formations because units are considered "in formation" by default.
As far as 3K goes, formations are cool but too easily disrupted by single entities. So let's not even imagine with WH monsters and magic added in the mix...
This already one formation already in the game and that's Bretonnia's wedge. Somewhat underwhelming IMO but that's more to do with the lackluster bonuses it conveys. ToB had no formations in it at all you say? For a pure historical title that's a shameful display. Default a unit of spearmen cannot be in a schiltrom formation by default nor a shield wall. That's a lot of essential gameplay lost from med 2 and Atilla.
As for the issue with single entities and magic, yeah it's pretty obvious that they had a part to play in the decision, but they not so oppressive to render formations useless. Front lines are staggered and SEMs cannot be everywhere at once, plus the wound mechanic is coming and will even that playing field.
The bonus from its actually pretty bonkers its the fact it goes in to wedge that makes it useless.
People some times click it right before a charfe connects to get the stats but prevent the unit going in to wedge.
For me it's the fact that I've played so many thousands of hours of Med 2 that I'm accustomed to how devastating a proper cavalry charge is. With cav in general in WH, unless they're fighting something super fragile, what you get is the enemy health chunked, many dudes flying but very few actual casualties from a good charge. It isn't the fault of Bret's wedge system though, it's due to the waterlogged sponge hitpools of standard units in WH, where any dude can take a half dozen hits with an axe and die on the seventh and can magically absorb arrows and bullets up to an arbitrary point where they fall dead. There's no physics in the combat and it feels like everyone is using LARP gear instead of actual weapons.
But that's a completely different criticism of mine and separate to the topic, though there are clear connections from a game design standpoint.
Not really i am bret main in mp and i shock cav perform perfectly well in base fourm.
The hp story is actually not true not even one bit ,base hp for most infantry bar black orcs is actually below 100 hp.
So damage for empire knights base line is overall on first attack after charge is 78.
Now if you add impact damage. Which is speed * mass and multiplyer the over all damge by 1st attack easily exceed 100 damge.
What empire knights lack is literally ap. Which is what your seeing as units serving and MD rolls. And the occasional ward saves.
So it literally has nothing to do with hp system but everything to do with armour system and i think this is the superior design since cavalry requires actaul akill to use rather oh i charge i win.
Though in campaign things are quite different since there are ways to add ridiculous amounts of armour and ward save to a unit making most cavalry useless.
Don't belive me get a unit of gors and get a good rear charge at full speed on a unbraced unit you will see what i am saying
The way armor values are calculated and how much damage is absorbed on an attack is also a major issue I have with the WH iteration of TW, but I've beat that horse to death already in several other threads. Suffice to say, it's not a very logical or intuitive system.
Its not easy to understand byt having a in game tutorial or better description and it become easy to understand.
The system is fine honestly ones you know how it works. Issue i have is ap simply ignores it and vigor debuff it gets Though if one of these gets adjusted it becomes a pretty good system.
It's a very good feature, but I would lock it behind some lord skill or the experience level of the unit, to enhance the difference between green and veteran troops.
Yes, these formations make the game look a lot better. Professional troops differ through more then just their equipment.
Personally, I think they just scrapped it in WH I when they ran into issues and didn t have as much budget to work with. After all, it´s more on the eye-candy side of things.
Also I just hate Empire spearmen without shields not beeing pikemen...
yep, it had some issues. I remember the first mods, just enabling them, would crash in some circumstances. But now it seems modders managed to fix those bugs, so we'll surely get at least unofficial working formations in Warhammer 3.
Comments
Imagine if WH3 took the good elements from every past game and combined it. It would no doubt be the game of the decade.
- Report
3 · 1Disagree 3Agree#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agreeit expert charge defence is separate thing on the unit abelites, and all spear and helberd units have charge defelection now.
and cathay also has separate ability if the unit doesn't move which work-in two stages. another reason why they suck in domination mode where you have to move
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeWhat you described is literally how bracing works in these games.
CA has a long history of taking old mechanics and slapping a new name on to it and people keep pretending they're new mechanics.
- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agreeagain where did you get this info?
and expert charge defence is it removes the charge bonus of any unit infanry or large as long unit is braced and getting frontal charged.
what i described is a another passive ability cathay has.
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · 2Disagree Agree@T_MACCABBEE
here is my proof watch form 10.00
also what the stabnding still buff is defensive stance.
now show me your proof?
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · 1Disagree AgreeOr are you gonna share the source of your claims?
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · 1Disagree AgreeWe have already seen jade warriors in gameplay and they don't do anything special at all. Even when supposedly staying still like what the youtubers say, they scatter all the same in battle just like every other unit.
- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree 1AgreeIt means the unit ai will try to get back to gather much more than now. And stay in formation more rather than charging wildly when a charge order is issued.
This also means if cathay infantry gets engaged they have very little chance of disengaging. And they are pretty sticky.
And they don't mix with enemy units
Its a double edged sword. Not a net benifit.
Benifit is since they don't loose what ever number of ranks you put them in and when charging do not get some models inside the enemy ranks aka what happens to sisters of slaughter and gets attacked on multiple anglles
And since ranks are precived the amount of models actually fighting the enemy is less so better at defending
And better at trapping chariots ....etc since they keep their ranks better.
Conss
They can disengage easily if a model gets surrounded
They will not do as much damge on attack order compared to regular infantry since number of models that attacking is limited
The ai can get in to bad situations of path finding
Not fancy words, but common knowledge
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeThe only unit that can switch to a formation is bretonnian cavalry.
Wow you really don't know this stuff
Formation attack=/= not an actual formation
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree 1AgreeWH bakes the formations into unit behavior and stats, which is imo the better way to do it.
- Report
0 · 4Disagree AgreeUh. That phalanx. Lovely stuff.
- Report
3 · Disagree 3AgreeGive muskets the ignore parry trait and we have full realism.
- Report
4 · Disagree 4AgreeI hate it when people try to act like all the stuff CA has added in with the TW Warhammer games means nothing just because they don't have unit formations.
Yeah, I'd like unit formations to come back, but I can actually understand how they'd be a little hard to factor in at firs when considering all the different types of units in the Warhammer world.
- Report
0 · 2Disagree AgreeThe system is fine honestly ones you know how it works.
Issue i have is ap simply ignores it and vigor debuff it gets
Though if one of these gets adjusted it becomes a pretty good system.
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree 1Agree