Ogre Bulls are weak against armor... yet can knock down walls...

Wyvax#7456

Serkelet#1834

I guess CA thinks ogres are helpless in siege battles otherwise...

I still kind of hate it though, and as soon as I can I will mod the game so walls aren't that easily taken down.

Wyvax#7456

Serkelet said:

I guess CA thinks ogres are helpless in siege battles otherwise...

I still kind of hate it though, and as soon as I can I will mod the game so walls aren't that easily taken down.

It's not like they can't already bash down gates as monstrous infantry, that makes sense and brings me siege of Minas Tirith nostalgia plus the blob that forms behind isn't to bad to handle for monstrous infantry. Ironblaster cannons could melt walls easily if they were balanced right and I see no reason why ogres can't have a big simpleton siege tower ladder for themselves to get up on the walls.

As it stands now these club bois can bonk down a wall but powerfist kroxigors with earthbending abilities cannot for some reason.

DaGangster#8697

Yeah the whole ogre roster having wallbreaker is a little wonky. But otherwise what your only strategy is just gate rush every siege?

Wyvax#7456

DaGangster said:

Yeah the whole ogre roster having wallbreaker is a little wonky. But otherwise what your only strategy is just gate rush every siege?

Nothing can't couldn't be fixed by some good old fashioned assymetrical game design. But that's a relic of the past it seems.

Spellbound1875#4610

Yeah Ogre Bulls are weak against armor in the same way Flesh Hounds are. They have huge WS meaning they hit pretty solidly against any targets.

CA likely realized that when every unit in a roster has armor piercing it makes it very difficult to differentiate elite and non-elite units. Well that and there seems to have been a re-balancing of armor piercing damage in the game, with a lot of units losing AP damage but gaining base damage which makes armor a more valuable stat.

Considering people were complaining about the prevalence of ap damage and the uselessness of armor for years this shouldn't come as a surprise.

#1609

Because they are unarmored walls.

MonochromaticSpider#5650

Bricks don't hit back.

zuendl86

Maybe a ballance problem?

Wyvax#7456

Spellbound55 said:

Yeah Ogre Bulls are weak against armor in the same way Flesh Hounds are. They have huge WS meaning they hit pretty solidly against any targets.

CA likely realized that when every unit in a roster has armor piercing it makes it very difficult to differentiate elite and non-elite units. Well that and there seems to have been a re-balancing of armor piercing damage in the game, with a lot of units losing AP damage but gaining base damage which makes armor a more valuable stat.

Considering people were complaining about the prevalence of ap damage and the uselessness of armor for years this shouldn't come as a surprise.

I don't see why that's an issue. All dwarfen units barring slayers are slow, heavily armored and have high morale. Nearly all Slaaneshi units are squishy and nearly armorless but hit like a truck with high charge bonus and AP. A faction like the OK being almost all AP is not out of the norm. It's a useless distinction. The eliteness of a unit throughout TW titles is demonstrated through higher morale and greater skill in combat so we'd expect Ironguts and Man eaters to have greater MA and MD since they're more competent in battle than the simple brutish bulls. It's just poor game design.

Loreguy#1056

It's based on ratio - I think 60% make you AP. (Edit: 50%, thanks)

If unit A have damage 10 and 8 is AP that unit is labeled AP.

If unit B have damage 50 and 20 is AP that unit is not labeled AP.

Unit B is better AP (but have worse ratio) than unit A.

Wyvax#7456

MonochromaticSpider said:

Bricks don't hit back.

So why can't the other monstrous infantry with the giant Monster Hunter weapons also break down walls if ogre lads with cudgels can then mate?

#568367

Or CA could have just made walls big enough to let monstrous infantry climb and fight on (and fit siege weapons for good measure)...like people wanted

DaGangster said:

Yeah the whole ogre roster having wallbreaker is a little wonky. But otherwise what your only strategy is just gate rush every siege?

I mean, it's already the single best strategy already, so...

Wyvax#7456

Loreguy said:

It's based on ratio - I think 60% make you AP.

If unit A have damage 10 and 8 is AP that unit is labeled AP.

If unit B have damage 50 and 20 is AP that unit is not labeled AP.

Unit B is better AP (but have worse ratio) than unit A.

I know, I mostly just pointed it out for the logical inconsistency of the sentence. Personally I find the way damage/AP damage works in this particular TW completely borked. There's no physics to it, just arbitrary percentages that lets everyone and their mum punch way above their paygrade. Past TW's like Med had a binary system which I liked, damage was either AP or it wasn't and there was no sliding value of how AP an item is. Think about it, we've arrows from goblin archers with a damage ration of 10:1. How is an arrow '1/11' armor piercing? Even with magical shenanigans it doesn't make sense, it's a contradiction like a square circle. I'm not happy with the degredation of physics simulation in the franchise to arbitrary number values.

#568367

KuntingWarrior said:

What the heck, how can a 12 foot tall bloatlord swinging a giant mace not crumble armour?

Also when almost every unit in the game has AP anyway, why handicap the rest like this?

I feel the same way about manticores and Chaos Spawns. If tiny white Lions can pierce armour, why not a giant winged one?

Or Sabretusks not being AP when White Lions are

Tennisgolfboll#5877

Loreguy said:

It's based on ratio - I think 60% make you AP.

If unit A have damage 10 and 8 is AP that unit is labeled AP.

If unit B have damage 50 and 20 is AP that unit is not labeled AP.

Unit B is better AP (but have worse ratio) than unit A.

It is 50%. 50% or more makes you get the ap symbol next to your damage numbers.

Wyvax#7456

GreenColoured said:

KuntingWarrior said:

What the heck, how can a 12 foot tall bloatlord swinging a giant mace not crumble armour?

Also when almost every unit in the game has AP anyway, why handicap the rest like this?

I feel the same way about manticores and Chaos Spawns. If tiny white Lions can pierce armour, why not a giant winged one?

Or Sabretusks not being AP when White Lions are

I could see Chaos Spawn varying honestly. Some will be spiky or spiny, others will be fleshy lumps flailing madly.

mightygloin#2446

GreenColoured said:

KuntingWarrior said:

What the heck, how can a 12 foot tall bloatlord swinging a giant mace not crumble armour?

Also when almost every unit in the game has AP anyway, why handicap the rest like this?

I feel the same way about manticores and Chaos Spawns. If tiny white Lions can pierce armour, why not a giant winged one?

Or Sabretusks not being AP when White Lions are

Many things are very inconsistent with balancing in this game from whichever point you look at it. I'd recommend not delving too deep in it otherwise you might start hearing voices..

ASyrian#2378

Pure brute strength ofc

Spellbound1875#4610

Wyvax said:

Spellbound55 said:

Yeah Ogre Bulls are weak against armor in the same way Flesh Hounds are. They have huge WS meaning they hit pretty solidly against any targets.

CA likely realized that when every unit in a roster has armor piercing it makes it very difficult to differentiate elite and non-elite units. Well that and there seems to have been a re-balancing of armor piercing damage in the game, with a lot of units losing AP damage but gaining base damage which makes armor a more valuable stat.

Considering people were complaining about the prevalence of ap damage and the uselessness of armor for years this shouldn't come as a surprise.

I don't see why that's an issue. All dwarfen units barring slayers are slow, heavily armored and have high morale. Nearly all Slaaneshi units are squishy and nearly armorless but hit like a truck with high charge bonus and AP. A faction like the OK being almost all AP is not out of the norm. It's a useless distinction. The eliteness of a unit throughout TW titles is demonstrated through higher morale and greater skill in combat so we'd expect Ironguts and Man eaters to have greater MA and MD since they're more competent in battle than the simple brutish bulls. It's just poor game design.

Dwarfs have rangers who are as fast as Slayers. Slaanesh mortals are all not AP even when they have mutations and mounts that could reasonably be interpreted as AP. Slaanesh mortals also have pretty meh CB and lack devastating flanker. Those are both in line with making Ogre Bulls non-ap units while leaving AP to the higher tier man-eaters (which CA did).

CA goes out of their way to provide variety and limit redundancy in all rosters, so every OK unit having AP would undercut that effort. It would also be very much out of the norm and would result in either high costs for the Ogre units or lower WS, both of which are problems in certain match ups. If this is poor game design then I guess you've had the same problem through the entire trilogy and beyond the total war warhammer series.

MonochromaticSpider#5650

Wyvax said:

MonochromaticSpider said:

Bricks don't hit back.

So why can't the other monstrous infantry with the giant Monster Hunter weapons also break down walls if ogre lads with cudgels can then mate?

They lifted weights instead of studying how to perform dim mak? Or maybe they've slacked off with their diets and just don't have the oomph to really swing their weapons like they mean it?

MonochromaticSpider#5650

KuntingWarrior said:

What the heck, how can a 12 foot tall bloatlord swinging a giant mace not crumble armour?

Also when almost every unit in the game has AP anyway, why handicap the rest like this?

If everything is AP then what's the point of giving anything an armour stat? At some point the AP really needed to be toned down a bit, as we were reaching the point where more things had AP damage than didn't.

mewade44#6520

Metal < Rock

OdTengri#8235

Serkelet said:

I guess CA thinks ogres are helpless in siege battles otherwise...

I still kind of hate it though, and as soon as I can I will mod the game so walls aren't that easily taken down.

I've got to agree... I'm totally fine with more wall crushing units but I was thinking we where talking about Giants, Mammoths, Arachnorock Spiders, that kind of thing.

#568367

OdTengri said:

Serkelet said:

I guess CA thinks ogres are helpless in siege battles otherwise...

I still kind of hate it though, and as soon as I can I will mod the game so walls aren't that easily taken down.

I've got to agree... I'm totally fine with more wall crushing units but I was thinking we where talking about Giants, Mammoths, Arachnorock Spiders, that kind of thing.

Araknaroks should be climbing the walls

Mr_Finley7#4571

Pretty damn arbitrary

OdTengri#8235

GreenColoured said:

OdTengri said:

Serkelet said:

I guess CA thinks ogres are helpless in siege battles otherwise...

I still kind of hate it though, and as soon as I can I will mod the game so walls aren't that easily taken down.

I've got to agree... I'm totally fine with more wall crushing units but I was thinking we where talking about Giants, Mammoths, Arachnorock Spiders, that kind of thing.

Araknaroks should be climbing the walls

All Spiders.... all of them.

Wyvax#7456

Spellbound55 said:

Wyvax said:

Spellbound55 said:

Yeah Ogre Bulls are weak against armor in the same way Flesh Hounds are. They have huge WS meaning they hit pretty solidly against any targets.

CA likely realized that when every unit in a roster has armor piercing it makes it very difficult to differentiate elite and non-elite units. Well that and there seems to have been a re-balancing of armor piercing damage in the game, with a lot of units losing AP damage but gaining base damage which makes armor a more valuable stat.

Considering people were complaining about the prevalence of ap damage and the uselessness of armor for years this shouldn't come as a surprise.

I don't see why that's an issue. All dwarfen units barring slayers are slow, heavily armored and have high morale. Nearly all Slaaneshi units are squishy and nearly armorless but hit like a truck with high charge bonus and AP. A faction like the OK being almost all AP is not out of the norm. It's a useless distinction. The eliteness of a unit throughout TW titles is demonstrated through higher morale and greater skill in combat so we'd expect Ironguts and Man eaters to have greater MA and MD since they're more competent in battle than the simple brutish bulls. It's just poor game design.

Dwarfs have rangers who are as fast as Slayers. Slaanesh mortals are all not AP even when they have mutations and mounts that could reasonably be interpreted as AP. Slaanesh mortals also have pretty meh CB and lack devastating flanker. Those are both in line with making Ogre Bulls non-ap units while leaving AP to the higher tier man-eaters (which CA did).

CA goes out of their way to provide variety and limit redundancy in all rosters, so every OK unit having AP would undercut that effort. It would also be very much out of the norm and would result in either high costs for the Ogre units or lower WS, both of which are problems in certain match ups. If this is poor game design then I guess you've had the same problem through the entire trilogy and beyond the total war warhammer series.

Yes, slayers AND rangers, I deserve a place in the book for the grave sin of forgeting the stealthy stunties. Relatively few of the Slaaneshi units are mortals, which means that, as I previously stated: nearly all Slaaneshi units are squishy and nearly armorless but hit like a truck with high charge bonus and AP. Nothing has been contradicted here. The Ogre Kingdoms already has non-ap units aplenty in their low tiers, they're called gnoblars. Now personally I think that the way AP damage is calculated in Warhammer is borked, so ultimately I don't care whether ogre bulls get 7:3 ratio AP or 4:6 AP or whatever; the point is that it's just a completely arbitrary distinction in the first place.

As for providing variety and limiting redundancy, I'd say it's a mixed bag with far more stinkers than actual zingers. Variation upon variation of unit, unit+shield, unit, unit+minor buff exist in most rosters but they tend to come straight from TT rules so I won't fault them for such roster bloat. What I can say is that in order to limit redundancy we've seen units nerfed from their TT role into lower tier units in order to fill a niche that wasn't needed. I'm talking about dwarf miners and White Lions of Chrace specifically.

saweendra#3399

OdTengri said:

GreenColoured said:

OdTengri said:

Serkelet said:

I guess CA thinks ogres are helpless in siege battles otherwise...

I still kind of hate it though, and as soon as I can I will mod the game so walls aren't that easily taken down.

I've got to agree... I'm totally fine with more wall crushing units but I was thinking we where talking about Giants, Mammoths, Arachnorock Spiders, that kind of thing.

Araknaroks should be climbing the walls

All Spiders.... all of them.

correct answer

Wyvax#7456

OdTengri said:

GreenColoured said:

OdTengri said:

Serkelet said:

I guess CA thinks ogres are helpless in siege battles otherwise...

I still kind of hate it though, and as soon as I can I will mod the game so walls aren't that easily taken down.

I've got to agree... I'm totally fine with more wall crushing units but I was thinking we where talking about Giants, Mammoths, Arachnorock Spiders, that kind of thing.

Araknaroks should be climbing the walls

All Spiders.... all of them.

Battle for Middle-Earth 2 had this ability for goblins and spider-riders in and that game worked on a battalion structure like TW did back in 2006.

#568367

Wyvax said:

Spellbound55 said:

Wyvax said:

Spellbound55 said:

Yeah Ogre Bulls are weak against armor in the same way Flesh Hounds are. They have huge WS meaning they hit pretty solidly against any targets.

CA likely realized that when every unit in a roster has armor piercing it makes it very difficult to differentiate elite and non-elite units. Well that and there seems to have been a re-balancing of armor piercing damage in the game, with a lot of units losing AP damage but gaining base damage which makes armor a more valuable stat.

Considering people were complaining about the prevalence of ap damage and the uselessness of armor for years this shouldn't come as a surprise.

I don't see why that's an issue. All dwarfen units barring slayers are slow, heavily armored and have high morale. Nearly all Slaaneshi units are squishy and nearly armorless but hit like a truck with high charge bonus and AP. A faction like the OK being almost all AP is not out of the norm. It's a useless distinction. The eliteness of a unit throughout TW titles is demonstrated through higher morale and greater skill in combat so we'd expect Ironguts and Man eaters to have greater MA and MD since they're more competent in battle than the simple brutish bulls. It's just poor game design.

Dwarfs have rangers who are as fast as Slayers. Slaanesh mortals are all not AP even when they have mutations and mounts that could reasonably be interpreted as AP. Slaanesh mortals also have pretty meh CB and lack devastating flanker. Those are both in line with making Ogre Bulls non-ap units while leaving AP to the higher tier man-eaters (which CA did).

CA goes out of their way to provide variety and limit redundancy in all rosters, so every OK unit having AP would undercut that effort. It would also be very much out of the norm and would result in either high costs for the Ogre units or lower WS, both of which are problems in certain match ups. If this is poor game design then I guess you've had the same problem through the entire trilogy and beyond the total war warhammer series.

Yes, slayers AND rangers, I deserve a place in the book for the grave sin of forgeting the stealthy stunties. Relatively few of the Slaaneshi units are mortals, which means that, as I previously stated: nearly all Slaaneshi units are squishy and nearly armorless but hit like a truck with high charge bonus and AP. Nothing has been contradicted here. The Ogre Kingdoms already has non-ap units aplenty in their low tiers, they're called gnoblars. Now personally I think that the way AP damage is calculated in Warhammer is borked, so ultimately I don't care whether ogre bulls get 7:3 ratio AP or 4:6 AP or whatever; the point is that it's just a completely arbitrary distinction in the first place.

As for providing variety and limiting redundancy, I'd say it's a mixed bag with far more stinkers than actual zingers. Variation upon variation of unit, unit+shield, unit, unit+minor buff exist in most rosters but they tend to come straight from TT rules so I won't fault them for such roster bloat. What I can say is that in order to limit redundancy we've seen units nerfed from their TT role into lower tier units in order to fill a niche that wasn't needed. I'm talking about dwarf miners and White Lions of Chrace specifically.

Everytime you remind me of the White Lions...I go red like beet



The biggest insult is this was asked for by literally NO ONE. Campaign players don't give a **** about mid tier trash. You mass cheap early infantry...you magically skip the nonexistent midgame, and then you start rolling out late game elite infantries.


MP players spend points on chevrons to beef up lower tier infantry.