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Domination

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  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 20,451
    Loupi_ said:

    eumaies said:

    Dropping orders is worse than it was in prior games; units can’t disengage well. Of course it’s worse given they also can’t avoid each other at all in cramped corridors.

    not only dropping orders, but the reduced responsiveness (i.e. the delay time it takes for a unit to start moving) makes it very bad to play vs all the new and very balanced wind and aoe spells, especially on small maps and in domination mode where your attention is split between the 3 lanes.
    cav is near un playable some times , i don't what they broke but honestly some of these bugs remind me of med 2, empire like games bugs

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 20,451
    y4g3r said:

    eumaies said:

    Well, it is hard to talk about some strong tactical plays, when you have several units engaged and then each side gets to summon one more at roughly similar intervals.

    It becomes more about picking the best counter for opponent over and over again.

    I would certainly assume there will be more variety with more maps and more factions, but underlying issues won't go away. The negative impact of domination as a type of battle will still be present, they will just have a bit less of an effect.

    I don't think in theory a game mode of this kind has to lack tactics. Feeding units into a compromised tactical position is a good way to lose; knowing when to retreat and when to engage and where, and using the map terrain (when the map isn't terrible) can all be very important. There's also a potential for an interesting dynamic balance where each player has a "home turf" advantage that allows for regrouping and multiple phases of the fight.

    In short, regardless of what one thinks about the immersion, there's the potential for plenty of strategy and tactics.

    But these maps don't have very good terrain, they mostly just have corridors. And in a corridor fight over a cap point the incentive to just clog up the lanes and push for capture power is a lot stronger. In a better implemented version of something like this, you'd have interesting terrain like rivers, hills, and forests, that allow armies to take positional advantage relative to caps and influence the manner in which large scale engagements occur, the results of which decide the game more-so than the grind for points dynamic.

    This is present to a degree on some maps and in some games, but as released -- and combined with terrible buggy units and terrible balancing -- it's really hard to tell if the game mode is driving things so much as other factors.
    As I've already mentioned, let's say we play a HE-Dwarfs matchup - what's there to stop you from bringing back a noble on chariot every time he's killed?

    To clarify, I'm not saying that noble on a chariot will be meta in domination. He might not be. It's just an example to illustrate the point. What is stopping me from bringing hardest possible counter every time? It seems that it will push matchups further to the extreme, emphasizing weaknesses and strengths.

    I get what you're saying. It's not like there's no tactics. It is bound to get better with better maps and better balance and after bugs are sorted out. I don't disagree with that. It just seems to me it will still be less engaging mode after all.

    I've shelved the game until old factions are reintroduced and bugs are ironed out, and I'm hoping I will find it at least somewhat fun to push me to play.

    That being said, I don't have very high hopes. BUT, I do think that CA should reintroduce at least non ranked classic land battles queue. Keep domination as "official ranked mode", just give me option to play land battles back.
    I do think that keeping domination mode would be bad for long term health of multiplayer, but that is just my impression. I may very well be wrong about that. But, liking it or not, I don't think anyone should be against at least a non ranked classic queue. If anyone is against that idea, then it is honestly nothing else but spite - I find domination fun and everyone must have fun in the same way I do or they should do something else.
    See, I agree with your point about respawning defeated units. If you beat a unit - morale break off the field or death - it should be removed from the game. 100%

    I also think two weeks of meta isn't enough to write off a new gamemode, and I believe this is where WII and WIII multiplayer suffers the most. We need the other factions to provide a better picture of multiplayer gameplay. With demons being unbreakable and all rosters intentionally limited for future dlc, of course multiplayer is going to suffer.

    The buggy singleplayer campaign (supply line bug back again?), the focus will be on fixing that first (unfortunately), the broken lobbies, the primary focus of players to play singleplayer (not everyone knows all the units of even on faction day one, it can be daunting), lack of a chat feature. There is an extensive list.

    There's a lot of room to grow, and step one is fixing the multiplayer ladder and ELO matchmaking. Then more factions.
    see now your starting sound like my intial suggestions, its not domination is bad its just the game mode need further work to make it actually good if we are gonna be stuck with it . unless they just roll out a quick match making system for land battles than i don't care about dom mode or ladder


    my intial suggestions
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/305090/ca-can-we-meet-in-the-middle-please#latest

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • glosskilos#4009glosskilos#4009 Registered Users Posts: 1,552

    I think I could sum up this entire thread in one sentence: Domination should be more like Land Battles.

    Well yeah of course they should be. The lack of any sort of balance bar makes it not feel like I’m playing TW anymore.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Registered Users Posts: 763

    It seems like a very small, vocal minority of players who don't like it. Only CA has the usage data.

    If you look at youtube comments on videos, its quite clear that the minority is actually people in favor of the mode, at least in current state.
    If you really think about it, only people that don't like it would have reason to say anything.

    It seems like a very small, vocal minority of players who don't like it. Only CA has the usage data.

    So, you're saying it's a small, vocal minority of players who don't like it and at the same time admit you have absolutely no data to back it up? :smiley:
    No one has any data, that was my point, except CA. But I just notice the same people on here repeating that they don't like it.

    The thing is with a change to a new mode, there would have been significant backlash against it if it was really that bad. More than what is currently happening. Instead, I think what has happened is that most players already adapted to it.
  • glosskilos#4009glosskilos#4009 Registered Users Posts: 1,552

    It seems like a very small, vocal minority of players who don't like it. Only CA has the usage data.

    If you look at youtube comments on videos, its quite clear that the minority is actually people in favor of the mode, at least in current state.
    If you really think about it, only people that don't like it would have reason to say anything.

    It seems like a very small, vocal minority of players who don't like it. Only CA has the usage data.

    So, you're saying it's a small, vocal minority of players who don't like it and at the same time admit you have absolutely no data to back it up? :smiley:
    No one has any data, that was my point, except CA. But I just notice the same people on here repeating that they don't like it.

    The thing is with a change to a new mode, there would have been significant backlash against it if it was really that bad. More than what is currently happening. Instead, I think what has happened is that most players already adapted to it.
    There is a significant backlash, and the forums are a decent indicator of that fact. There are a fair number of people who have not bought the game because of domination mode. The lobby right now is also a decent indicator. Right now it looks like lobby games are about 60/40 ratio of land battles to domination, and how the lobby composition changes overtime should show how popular domination is. Either way there should a quick battle option for land battles, it’s ridiculous there isn’t now.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,364

    It seems like a very small, vocal minority of players who don't like it. Only CA has the usage data.

    If you look at youtube comments on videos, its quite clear that the minority is actually people in favor of the mode, at least in current state.
    If you really think about it, only people that don't like it would have reason to say anything.

    It seems like a very small, vocal minority of players who don't like it. Only CA has the usage data.

    So, you're saying it's a small, vocal minority of players who don't like it and at the same time admit you have absolutely no data to back it up? :smiley:
    No one has any data, that was my point, except CA. But I just notice the same people on here repeating that they don't like it.

    The thing is with a change to a new mode, there would have been significant backlash against it if it was really that bad. More than what is currently happening. Instead, I think what has happened is that most players already adapted to it.
    Not at all because in the battles that show land battles there is much more comments that express their support for it than there is dislike.

    So in all cases there appears more support

    Land battle videos are getting more likes than dom also from same caster but that could ofcourse be the factions involved etc but once we have a proper land battle event we will see
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Registered Users Posts: 763

    It seems like a very small, vocal minority of players who don't like it. Only CA has the usage data.

    If you look at youtube comments on videos, its quite clear that the minority is actually people in favor of the mode, at least in current state.
    If you really think about it, only people that don't like it would have reason to say anything.

    It seems like a very small, vocal minority of players who don't like it. Only CA has the usage data.

    So, you're saying it's a small, vocal minority of players who don't like it and at the same time admit you have absolutely no data to back it up? :smiley:
    No one has any data, that was my point, except CA. But I just notice the same people on here repeating that they don't like it.

    The thing is with a change to a new mode, there would have been significant backlash against it if it was really that bad. More than what is currently happening. Instead, I think what has happened is that most players already adapted to it.
    Not at all because in the battles that show land battles there is much more comments that express their support for it than there is dislike.

    So in all cases there appears more support

    Land battle videos are getting more likes than dom also from same caster but that could ofcourse be the factions involved etc but once we have a proper land battle event we will see
    Well it looks like CA threw out the baby with the bathwater, it had to be both.
  • RawSugar#1229RawSugar#1229 Registered Users Posts: 1,645
    edited March 2022
    domination being the autojoin/ranked mode should make it much more popular but its just so bad. the games just get so muddled, like maybe half of it is as it used to be, building vs opponents, adjusting your strategy, finding the right targets for each unit....but the buildroulette is worse than it was in WH2 because there arent any specific starting army caps, and between the maps and the capture points you cant do army tactics, making a bunch of units much less useful...and i cant point to anything the mode gives us. ok maybe you dont have the occasional idiot kitedrawing but that was so rare it absolutely not worth destroying the game for.
  • DaDokisinXDaDokisinX Registered Users Posts: 54
    RawSugar said:

    domination being the autojoin/ranked mode should make it much more popular but its just so bad. the games just get so muddled, like maybe half of it is as it used to be, building vs opponents, adjusting your strategy, finding the right targets for each unit....but the buildroulette is worse than it was in WH2 because there arent any specific starting army caps, and between the maps and the capture points you cant do army tactics, making a bunch of units much less useful...and i cant point to anything the mode gives us. ok maybe you dont have the occasional idiot kitedrawing but that was so rare it absolutely not worth destroying the game for.

    I have had the literal opposite experience playing domination
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Registered Users Posts: 9,614

    It seems like a very small, vocal minority of players who don't like it. Only CA has the usage data.

    If you look at youtube comments on videos, its quite clear that the minority is actually people in favor of the mode, at least in current state.
    If you really think about it, only people that don't like it would have reason to say anything.

    It seems like a very small, vocal minority of players who don't like it. Only CA has the usage data.

    So, you're saying it's a small, vocal minority of players who don't like it and at the same time admit you have absolutely no data to back it up? :smiley:
    No one has any data, that was my point, except CA. But I just notice the same people on here repeating that they don't like it.

    The thing is with a change to a new mode, there would have been significant backlash against it if it was really that bad. More than what is currently happening. Instead, I think what has happened is that most players already adapted to it.
    There is a significant backlash, and the forums are a decent indicator of that fact. There are a fair number of people who have not bought the game because of domination mode. The lobby right now is also a decent indicator. Right now it looks like lobby games are about 60/40 ratio of land battles to domination, and how the lobby composition changes overtime should show how popular domination is. Either way there should a quick battle option for land battles, it’s ridiculous there isn’t now.
    I think domination is pretty flawed right now, but lobbies don’t show that at all. Lobbies naturally will have more land battles because if you’re playing domination youd just play ranked most of the time.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    It's pretty much impossible to guess the amount of players or their satisfaction with domination mode.

    Tubers were generally saying they would be focusing on domination, because they do not need external rules.
    That in itself is a huge advantage, since you basically don't need anything or anyone to make sure rules are being followed.
    But, it seems they're bringing back land battles. Turin hosted a classic land battle tournament yesterday and said the plan is to have one of each tournaments every week.

    That pretty much proves that there is still high demand for classic battles, as the casters are willing to put up with making rules, keeping them updated and enforcing them.

    It seems to me that the honeymoon with domination is over and even the strongest advocates of domination mode are now saying it needs significant changes. But, again, that is just my impression.

    Maybe there is a sweet spot, where CA sort of pick the best of both modes and create a mode that is essentially a baby of Land Battles and Domination, which would make most players satisfied.
  • y4g3r#8736y4g3r#8736 Registered Users Posts: 672

    It's pretty much impossible to guess the amount of players or their satisfaction with domination mode.

    Tubers were generally saying they would be focusing on domination, because they do not need external rules.
    That in itself is a huge advantage, since you basically don't need anything or anyone to make sure rules are being followed.
    But, it seems they're bringing back land battles. Turin hosted a classic land battle tournament yesterday and said the plan is to have one of each tournaments every week.

    That pretty much proves that there is still high demand for classic battles, as the casters are willing to put up with making rules, keeping them updated and enforcing them.

    It seems to me that the honeymoon with domination is over and even the strongest advocates of domination mode are now saying it needs significant changes. But, again, that is just my impression.

    Maybe there is a sweet spot, where CA sort of pick the best of both modes and create a mode that is essentially a baby of Land Battles and Domination, which would make most players satisfied.

    Turin built a website to track players tournament stats. He was doing this before multiplayer was even revealed, and he has said since his website reveal he is going to be having land battle tournaments with rules, in addition to domination tournaments.

    None of that was dependent on what domination or ladder battles are or their reception. It's twisting events to suit the narrative, and that narrative is the "majority of people don't like domination". That is simply not true.

  • ParmigianoParmigiano Registered Users Posts: 763
    The recent land battle tournament which Xiphos won was much better. He lost a battle to the Elemental Bear which was supposedly underpowered. Even though he pretty much played it the same as Ogres vs Khorne, it was still better. Either way all the battles go the same, whether it be land battle or Domination. It will come down to what was brought and APM. But for some reason land battle was way better, the full map was being used.

    CA will have some decisions to make whether to tweak Dom, and make it better. But it is up to CA to bring back land battles without the need for rules.
  • glosskilos#4009glosskilos#4009 Registered Users Posts: 1,552
    I think if domination is it changed the youtubers will soon find that they need to use special tournament rules for domination as well as land battles.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,364
    y4g3r said:

    It's pretty much impossible to guess the amount of players or their satisfaction with domination mode.

    Tubers were generally saying they would be focusing on domination, because they do not need external rules.
    That in itself is a huge advantage, since you basically don't need anything or anyone to make sure rules are being followed.
    But, it seems they're bringing back land battles. Turin hosted a classic land battle tournament yesterday and said the plan is to have one of each tournaments every week.

    That pretty much proves that there is still high demand for classic battles, as the casters are willing to put up with making rules, keeping them updated and enforcing them.

    It seems to me that the honeymoon with domination is over and even the strongest advocates of domination mode are now saying it needs significant changes. But, again, that is just my impression.

    Maybe there is a sweet spot, where CA sort of pick the best of both modes and create a mode that is essentially a baby of Land Battles and Domination, which would make most players satisfied.

    Turin built a website to track players tournament stats. He was doing this before multiplayer was even revealed, and he has said since his website reveal he is going to be having land battle tournaments with rules, in addition to domination tournaments.

    None of that was dependent on what domination or ladder battles are or their reception. It's twisting events to suit the narrative, and that narrative is the "majority of people don't like domination". That is simply not true.

    Thats not what was said previously, you can easily find the quote from dahvplays and him on his discord or in warhammer community discord.

    He did change his stance only after footage of domination was shown to public and it did not receive as good response as was hopes for.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,364

    I think if domination is it changed the youtubers will soon find that they need to use special tournament rules for domination as well as land battles.

    They already do, pendulem is banned currently
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    edited March 2022
    y4g3r said:

    It's pretty much impossible to guess the amount of players or their satisfaction with domination mode.

    Tubers were generally saying they would be focusing on domination, because they do not need external rules.
    That in itself is a huge advantage, since you basically don't need anything or anyone to make sure rules are being followed.
    But, it seems they're bringing back land battles. Turin hosted a classic land battle tournament yesterday and said the plan is to have one of each tournaments every week.

    That pretty much proves that there is still high demand for classic battles, as the casters are willing to put up with making rules, keeping them updated and enforcing them.

    It seems to me that the honeymoon with domination is over and even the strongest advocates of domination mode are now saying it needs significant changes. But, again, that is just my impression.

    Maybe there is a sweet spot, where CA sort of pick the best of both modes and create a mode that is essentially a baby of Land Battles and Domination, which would make most players satisfied.

    Turin built a website to track players tournament stats. He was doing this before multiplayer was even revealed, and he has said since his website reveal he is going to be having land battle tournaments with rules, in addition to domination tournaments.

    None of that was dependent on what domination or ladder battles are or their reception. It's twisting events to suit the narrative, and that narrative is the "majority of people don't like domination". That is simply not true.

    I'm not trying to make a narrative. I'm merely expressing my views. I admit I wasn't paying specific attention to wording and which tuber in question said what. It's just that my general understanding was that tubers were mostly interested in domination and were preparing for it to be the main MP mode, both in terms of casting and tournament potential.

    My impression is that they've softened their stance to a large degree since then, and are speaking openly about changes needed for domination.

    There's no narrative on my part. The only narrative, if you can call it that, is that I want a Land Battles queue. It doesn't need to be ranked. I want to click once and get...

    1) opponent
    2) map from a pre selected pool
    3) unit size, funds and caps set

    ... get a game, gg, get out or click again.

    I do not think that is too much to ask.

    EDIT: I have no idea about number of players or their wishes. Let CA do a poll if they want to know.
  • littlenuke#9412littlenuke#9412 Registered Users Posts: 855
    I mean, all that needs to be said is that theres been a full new game release with a brand spanking new multiplayer yet it's the same old gang in here since game 2, in the multiplayer/balance section.
    Karaz-A-Karak discord: https://discord.gg/UZV6F5N

  • y4g3r#8736y4g3r#8736 Registered Users Posts: 672

    I mean, all that needs to be said is that theres been a full new game release with a brand spanking new multiplayer yet it's the same old gang in here since game 2, in the multiplayer/balance section.

    Because this forum known amongst the community to welcome to new players and opinions.


    WRONG

    ....

    VERY WRONG

    .....

    You're post shows a clear lack of understanding of the issue raised by OP and is full of WRONG assumptions

  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,364
    edited March 2022
    y4g3r said:

    I mean, all that needs to be said is that theres been a full new game release with a brand spanking new multiplayer yet it's the same old gang in here since game 2, in the multiplayer/balance section.

    Because this forum known amongst the community to welcome to new players and opinions.


    WRONG

    ....

    VERY WRONG

    .....

    You're post shows a clear lack of understanding of the issue raised by OP and is full of WRONG assumptions

    Why dont you include the post i was responding to, that was clearly wrong…doesn't suit your narrative?
  • dge1dge1 Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 24,012
    Given the personal comments in the latest series of posts, led by a couple of folks whom should know better by now, the thread is closed.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

This discussion has been closed.