The Elemental Bear

Nielspeterdejong

So while I love most of Kislev its roster, I just feel like the Elemental Bear is a tad underwhelming. The only interesting thing it has going for it is the ice breath, and that deals very little damage. Perhaps they could receive some boon to help them out?

Here are some of my ideas, but if you agree with me then I'd love to hear your opinions as well:

1) Increase the damage of their breath weapon to be on par with that of dragons, and design it so that players can use it frontal to great effect as well, as the Elemental Bear has much less flanking potential than a flying dragon.

2) Give it an area around it that deals damage to enemy creatures once it is in melee. This could work similar to the effect of the Fey Enchantress, with either only dealing damage or dealing damage and also adding a -8 Melee attack penalty, so that the effect will not stack with the effects of other Elemental Bears.

What are your thoughts on these ideas?

RawSugar

its definitely ovepriced, by maybe 300. improving breath would require a heavy buff to make up for that, same with aura. i do like the idea of giving it some ability rather than buffing cost though

Nielspeterdejong

Yeah same! I mean, I don't mind paying a lot for it, but I would like it to be impactful in its own way. I also found that it wasn't that tanky at all compared to other units that are equally priced. Giving it an aura that works similar to the mist aura of the Fey Enchantress (while in melee, deal damage to nearby combatants and lower their Melee Attack by -8), would help them deal with blobs more, and the more powerful breath weapon (especially against a single target similar to some of the dragons, and also effective when using direction like the Hydra has) would also be a nice boon.

GreenColoured

Some of the suggestions are a bit extreme. Give it a few months of playing first to see how it performs.

Saitoh

The best way to explain the elemental bear is it's a kharybdiss with less melee attack, half as much melee defense, no poison, no anti large, and the hit box of a dead saurian that costs 550 more and tries to justify that with a breath attack that you can't use because it's a short ranged ability that doesn't work if you're in melee.

It's like they mashed together a hydra and a kharybdiss in a way that completely misses the point of either. It has a hydra's breath attack and generalist nature but not the regen which is why hydras are good. It has the increased health, damage and contact effect of a kharybdiss but not the anti large and poison that makes kharybdiss the most cost effective anti large monster in the game.

Nielspeterdejong

GreenColoured said:

Some of the suggestions are a bit extreme. Give it a few months of playing first to see how it performs.

Well why I would normally agree, the Elemental Bear has been mentioned to be pretty underwhelming from the start in the playtests. This person gives a good explanation, even if the title is a bit clickbait-ish:



While the suggestions may seem strong, keep in mind that this is a 2200 gp unit, which loses hit points rather quickly even against low tier units. He may seem strong on paper, but in practice he has proven to be underperforming greatly from the start. As such, I feel that especially the aura (which of course, would not stack with the aura of other elemental bears) which both increases their damage as well as survivability against blobs of enemies would help them greatly, and it would also be rather thematic.

And the current breath weapon also seems to be bugged a bit and often attacks a unit at the side. And even when it hits as intended, it still deals very mediocre damage, not worth pulling it out of melee for.

Nielspeterdejong

Saitoh said:

The best way to explain the elemental bear is it's a kharybdiss with less melee attack, half as much melee defense, no poison, no anti large, and the hit box of a dead saurian that costs 550 more and tries to justify that with a breath attack that you can't use because it's a short ranged ability that doesn't work if you're in melee.

It's like they mashed together a hydra and a kharybdiss in a way that completely misses the point of either. It has a hydra's breath attack and generalist nature but not the regen which is why hydras are good. It has the increased health, damage and contact effect of a kharybdiss but not the anti large and poison that makes kharybdiss the most cost effective anti large monster in the game.

Honestly, you summed it up pretty nice.

I'm not trying to dish the developers here, as I think that 99% of their content is simply stellar! But if they could give the Elemental Bear some love and optimize it as a stuck in unit that tanks (hence the aura idea, or an effect that lets them heal themselves in combat with the theme of the healing roar of the Patriarchs) as well as make its breath weapon more impactful, that would really justify their high cost a lot more. And even then, I still feel they would need a price reduction, but this latter is more a personal gripe. Like I said, if you design them as a stick in unit, as well as give them a breath weapon, then both really need to be good to justify their high cost.

Nielspeterdejong

Not to mention their low Melee Defense. Again, I think most of the content of Warhammer 3 is amazing! Especially for the demons, who have been made so interesting and fun to play it. But it would be great if the Elemental Bear could receive some love to help it fill its role as a roadblock to stuck in, as well as give it's elemental breath some more power.

Alternatively, why not make its breath weapon something like the blowpipe canons on top of the Dread Saurian? Make it a ranged attack that it can use in combat as well, which fires quickly in between attacks?

Again, just throwing some ideas out there. But at the very least a Melee Defense boon as well as the "mist of the lady" aura would help them a lot in the areas where they have been lacking.

Saitoh

The design process for a lot of units seems to be either:

take an equivalent unit, make it better in every way for +100 gold which produces overpowered units like gorgers (mournghuls), Terracotta sentinel (giant), and flesh hounds (razorgor herd)

or

take an equivalent unit, make it worse in every way for -100 gold which makes underpowered units like elemental bear (feral dead saurian) and uh pretty much every other unit on the Cathay roster, most of which can be summed up as worse versions of already bad units.

griffithxi

Nielspeterdejong said:

So while I love most of Kislev its roster, I just feel like the Elemental Bear is a tad underwhelming. The only interesting thing it has going for it is the ice breath, and that deals very little damage. Perhaps they could receive some boon to help them out?

Here are some of my ideas, but if you agree with me then I'd love to hear your opinions as well:

1) Increase the damage of their breath weapon to be on par with that of dragons, and design it so that players can use it frontal to great effect as well, as the Elemental Bear has much less flanking potential than a flying dragon.

2) Give it an area around it that deals damage to enemy creatures once it is in melee. This could work similar to the effect of the Fey Enchantress, with either only dealing damage or dealing damage and also adding a -8 Melee attack penalty, so that the effect will not stack with the effects of other Elemental Bears.

What are your thoughts on these ideas?

This may be unpopular but I feel like the reason the bear is that way is due to the capabilities of Kislev to support it.
Put it next to a patriarch in battle and the bear has hp regen and vigor regen on an unbreakable beast with 90 armor and 25% physical resist. That is before even adding in the lullaby for emergency health boost. Throw in the relatively cheap ice spell weapon damage buff and you can also have him sitting at 900 weapon strength for extended periods. (not to mention the large MA buffs from patriarch)

Likely if the bear is buffed those patriarch abilities will end up on the chopping block for a nerf.

RawSugar

griffithxi said:

Nielspeterdejong said:

So while I love most of Kislev its roster, I just feel like the Elemental Bear is a tad underwhelming. The only interesting thing it has going for it is the ice breath, and that deals very little damage. Perhaps they could receive some boon to help them out?

Here are some of my ideas, but if you agree with me then I'd love to hear your opinions as well:

1) Increase the damage of their breath weapon to be on par with that of dragons, and design it so that players can use it frontal to great effect as well, as the Elemental Bear has much less flanking potential than a flying dragon.

2) Give it an area around it that deals damage to enemy creatures once it is in melee. This could work similar to the effect of the Fey Enchantress, with either only dealing damage or dealing damage and also adding a -8 Melee attack penalty, so that the effect will not stack with the effects of other Elemental Bears.

What are your thoughts on these ideas?

This may be unpopular but I feel like the reason the bear is that way is due to the capabilities of Kislev to support it.
Put it next to a patriarch in battle and the bear has hp regen and vigor regen on an unbreakable beast with 90 armor and 25% physical resist. That is before even adding in the lullaby for emergency health boost. Throw in the relatively cheap ice spell weapon damage buff and you can also have him sitting at 900 weapon strength for extended periods. (not to mention the large MA buffs from patriarch)

Likely if the bear is buffed those patriarch abilities will end up on the chopping block for a nerf.

but then you have to factor in what opponent might bring. i dont see bear+patriarch winning vs terracotta + some lord support at same cost. you're right though that patriarch goes really well with the bear, but not even enough to balance it imo and needing support should mean the bear is super strong with the support

KhorneFlakes

Cut the gold cost by 200

yst

Trash like these have always been totally unusable and moronically overpriced. Garbage like dull saurian already proved this for multiple years. Picking these worthless unit have always been autolose, or autowin if ure facing a one.

U can cut -$500 and still no one will pick them, especially now with domination mode u gotta be pretty stupid to put something this expensive and lose all nodes control

griffithxi

RawSugar said:

griffithxi said:

Nielspeterdejong said:

So while I love most of Kislev its roster, I just feel like the Elemental Bear is a tad underwhelming. The only interesting thing it has going for it is the ice breath, and that deals very little damage. Perhaps they could receive some boon to help them out?

Here are some of my ideas, but if you agree with me then I'd love to hear your opinions as well:

1) Increase the damage of their breath weapon to be on par with that of dragons, and design it so that players can use it frontal to great effect as well, as the Elemental Bear has much less flanking potential than a flying dragon.

2) Give it an area around it that deals damage to enemy creatures once it is in melee. This could work similar to the effect of the Fey Enchantress, with either only dealing damage or dealing damage and also adding a -8 Melee attack penalty, so that the effect will not stack with the effects of other Elemental Bears.

What are your thoughts on these ideas?

This may be unpopular but I feel like the reason the bear is that way is due to the capabilities of Kislev to support it.
Put it next to a patriarch in battle and the bear has hp regen and vigor regen on an unbreakable beast with 90 armor and 25% physical resist. That is before even adding in the lullaby for emergency health boost. Throw in the relatively cheap ice spell weapon damage buff and you can also have him sitting at 900 weapon strength for extended periods. (not to mention the large MA buffs from patriarch)

Likely if the bear is buffed those patriarch abilities will end up on the chopping block for a nerf.

but then you have to factor in what opponent might bring. i dont see bear+patriarch winning vs terracotta + some lord support at same cost. you're right though that patriarch goes really well with the bear, but not even enough to balance it imo and needing support should mean the bear is super strong with the support

That would be interesting to test. I think the main difference is most of the support the sentinel can get is limited by 1 use alchemical abilities or mana but kislev can bring a lot of infinite support as long as patriarch is alive.

edit: I suppose lord magistrate can do decent support too with its cooldown abilities but I think you have to give up a good bit by picking that lord and you don't get the healing kislev brings to the bear.

yst

griffithxi said:

That would be interesting to test. I think the main difference is most of the support the sentinel can get is limited by 1 use alchemical abilities or mana but kislev can bring a lot of infinite support as long as patriarch is alive.

edit: I suppose lord magistrate can do decent support too with its cooldown abilities but I think you have to give up a good bit by picking that lord and you don't get the healing kislev brings to the bear.

Uve to remember tho, this game is no longer the ones we know.

Battle field control is a key factor now. When u pump up what $4-5k on a few entities, ure finish, ure getting severe diminishing returns. U only get value they opponent r forced to fight u which they dont have to when they control more than u do

Nielspeterdejong

yst said:

griffithxi said:

That would be interesting to test. I think the main difference is most of the support the sentinel can get is limited by 1 use alchemical abilities or mana but kislev can bring a lot of infinite support as long as patriarch is alive.

edit: I suppose lord magistrate can do decent support too with its cooldown abilities but I think you have to give up a good bit by picking that lord and you don't get the healing kislev brings to the bear.

Uve to remember tho, this game is no longer the ones we know.

Battle field control is a key factor now. When u pump up what $4-5k on a few entities, ure finish, ure getting severe diminishing returns. U only get value they opponent r forced to fight u which they dont have to when they control more than u do

While true, many streamers have tried them out in Domination as well, and found that he seriously underperformed.

Again, I love most of the content, but there are just some minor things that could really help them out!

Such as either buffing the breath weapon damage and their Melee Defense, and give them the Aura. Or make the breath a ranged attack and make them function as artilleries as well, similar to the Soul Grinder, where they have an impactful ranged attack. Either of these would help them tremendously!

Nielspeterdejong

Also, I forgot to mention: I was thinking about making the range of its effect similar to that of the cheaper Beast of Nurgle:

1) Give it a trait called "Vengeful Frost" which in a 35m radius, provided the Elemental Bear is in melee, will lower the Melee Attack of enemy troops by -8, and deals 16-32 damage to nearby units.

2) Give it a trait called "The Land Endures" that lets it heal 0,2% per second. As the land actually endures and restores itself.

3) Increase its stats and breath weapon damage?

This will solidify it as a "sturdy tank that you want to get stuck into the enemy lines" kind of unit.

Thoughts?

Nielspeterdejong

KhorneFlakes said:

Cut the gold cost by 200

Well I was hoping to just give them something to help them out mechanically.

Let's compare them to the Terracotta Sentinel: This unit costs 1600 gold, has 65 MA and 30 MD, and 12K hp.

How about:

1) Give the Elemental Bear an effect called "Vengeful Frost" that works similar to the Mist of the Lady (-8 MA, and 16-32 damage per second to nearby units) while it is in melee. With of course does not stack with the same trait of other Elemental Bears. The range could be 35m, similar to the Mist of the Lady.

2) Increase their main stats to 65 MA, and 30 MD. Similar to the stats of the 1600 gp terracotta sentinel.

3) Give the Elemental Bear a trait called "The Land Endures" that grants it hit point regeneration, either 0,1% heal per second, or 0,2% heal per second if its cost remains 2200 gp.

4) Increase the damage of the breath weapon. Perhaps something along the lines of: 240 (80%) ranged, and 112 (60%) explosive?


This will make it a great "stick in there" single model unit for Kislev to use, while justifying its high cost of 2200. Thoughts?

zinthir

It pretty much has all of the worst aspects of monsters and not much of the benefits. Doesn't offer much besides a big target, playing against one I tied it down with a single unit of nurglings for a couple minutes and ended up taking nearly 1/3rd of its health with them due to its terrible MD

KhorneFlakes

Cut the gold cost by 200

Nielspeterdejong said:

KhorneFlakes said:

Cut the gold cost by 200

Well I was hoping to just give them something to help them out mechanically.

Let's compare them to the Terracotta Sentinel: This unit costs 1600 gold, has 65 MA and 30 MD, and 12K hp.

How about:

1) Give the Elemental Bear an effect called "Vengeful Frost" that works similar to the Mist of the Lady (-8 MA, and 16-32 damage per second to nearby units) while it is in melee. With of course does not stack with the same trait of other Elemental Bears. The range could be 35m, similar to the Mist of the Lady.

2) Increase their main stats to 65 MA, and 30 MD. Similar to the stats of the 1600 gp terracotta sentinel.

3) Give the Elemental Bear a trait called "The Land Endures" that grants it hit point regeneration, either 0,1% heal per second, or 0,2% heal per second if its cost remains 2200 gp.

4) Increase the damage of the breath weapon. Perhaps something along the lines of: 240 (80%) ranged, and 112 (60%) explosive?


This will make it a great "stick in there" single model unit for Kislev to use, while justifying its high cost of 2200. Thoughts?

I get what are you saying,but you are missing one single component

Elemental bear have collision attacks same as chariots,mammoth and stonehorn

Currently i am 100% sure that collision damage is bugged and not working correctly,so that may be the reason for worse perfomance.
Even accounting for that i am also saying it can reduce cost reduction by 200 if collision attacks are fixed
Breath attack is fine,i don't know if its on par with dragon breath but yeah it should not exceed dragon breath,since they were toned down,its much better than bloodthirster breath attacks so there that