Archers work wrong in this game and it is bad for both balance and immersion.

GebycrfDjqyf

I'am going to be quick, how did archers released in real life? They sent their arrows in the general area where enemy was located. Precise shots were inpractical wast of time most of time. This seems to be the case for shogun 2 and medieval 2, (probably rome 1 too but i did't played it) so it is not impossible to make.
In warhammer and Troy(maybe in every post rome2 game, but i did not cheacked) not only projectiles are sent precisely at the enemy most of time, they even create absolutely impossible arcs to reach them, this not only looks beyond stupid, but also makes archers op, for now every projectile from every soldier in the unit will probably hit, or at least 80%. and there is next to no danger of hurting your own by friendly fire even when they are locked into tight melee engagement.



Why is this a thing? it wasn't broken initially, so what happened? If it is singe enteties then why not just give archers two ways to release that depend on type of target they are focusing on, and it still dosent exuse the absurd arcs.

Fingolfin_the-Golden#2157

Has it not always been so in Warhammer?

GebycrfDjqyf

Fingolfin_the-Golden said:

Has it not always been so in Warhammer?

Yes. but it should not have been this way.

Processing#6286

I am fine with shooting on precise target for balance, but that picture you drew is indeed dumb. They should arc their shots barely over other units. They shouldn't be able to arc their shots over the walls and hit units behind them.

Slingers do the same which is even dumber.

GebycrfDjqyf

Processing said:

I am fine with shooting on precise target for balance, but that picture you drew is indeed dumb. They should arc their shots barely over other units. They shouldn't be able to arc their shots over the walls and hit units behind them.

Slingers do the same which is even dumber.

Genuine question. Why do you think it is good for balacne, it seems to be one of the main causes of ranged meta

BaronRodney#9956

I fully agree that short of Elven archers, arrows should work in volley fire.

Currently though if you fire at your own troops engaged in melee in the backs you will kill quite a few of yours and certainly weaken them.

I also this we should be able to order them to fire even if obstructed by allies (skaven style) but that's a slightly different conversation.

Fingolfin_the-Golden#2157

We also have a demon lord charging foot lords etc,
The physics and warcraft are not exactly real in a lot of ways. But compromises must be made I guess for gameplay.
I don’t mind me some archer spam sometimes. So I’m biased.

Processing#6286

GebycrfDjqyf said:

Processing said:

I am fine with shooting on precise target for balance, but that picture you drew is indeed dumb. They should arc their shots barely over other units. They shouldn't be able to arc their shots over the walls and hit units behind them.

Slingers do the same which is even dumber.

Genuine question. Why do you think it is good for balacne, it seems to be one of the main causes of ranged meta

Well, you should be able to shoot lord and heroes. The ranged meta only exist because you can easily shoot over your unit and because non-gun unit have at least 1 AP. Remove all AP from non-gun unit and you have ranged meta gone. 19 peasamt archers would do **** to chosen.

GebycrfDjqyf

GebycrfDjqyf said:

Why is this a thing? it wasn't broken initially, so what happened? If it is singe enteties then why not just give archers two ways to release that depend on type of target they are focusing on, and it still dosent exuse the absurd arcs.

I have suggeted a solution in my post.

GebycrfDjqyf

Fingolfin_the-Golden said:

We also have a demon lord charging foot lords etc,
The physics and warcraft are not exactly real in a lot of ways. But compromises must be made I guess for gameplay.
I don’t mind me some archer spam sometimes. So I’m biased.

English longbows in med 2 were still notably powerful while still being realistic

I understand that comprmise for gameplay sometimes is needed but i do not consider that particualr moment to be one of those

ArecBalrin#2350

It's been talked about before but some people don't like it being talked about.

It used to be that whether missiles actually did damage or not depended on a number things. The velocity of the missile mattered. I'm not sure exactly when it changes(it might have been Shogun 2, one of the few problems with that game) but the shooting system was overhauled entirely along with many combat systems in Rome 2.

Since then, weapon and missile damage was introduced. When a missile makes contact with the hitbox of an entity, it will take that amount of missile damage adjusted for things like ward save and armour. It doesn't matter how the missile hit, what speed(the speed doesn't change depending on the firing-arc either now), it will do the missile damage.

CA are trying to imitate the old system with the 'calibration-area', but it's accurate to say that each missile entity is aiming at individual targets rather than the area. They aren't firing in synchronised volleys either to correct for inaccuracy over distance: they're all just firing as soon as they individually have a target. This works for high-accuracy units in older Total War games(the Platoon-firing drill from Empire is for situations where unit accuracy is high), but what about modern Total War?

Zerkovich has a good video explaining the ins and outs of it, and you might spot the same problems I have:

CA ruined most of the combat systems in Rome 2, then kept doubling-down on it. Where ever they have actually improved anything, it's been by getting their 'brilliant' new ideas to resemble how things used to work.

Wyvax#7456

The less that physics are simulated in the TW engine, the more the combat suffers. That's what people mean when they go on about the "arcadey" nature of battles in modern TW titles. Pretty much every aspect of missiles, the way shields are used and more factor into this.

GebycrfDjqyf

Wyvax said:

The less that physics are simulated in the TW engine, the more the combat suffers. That's what people mean when they go on about the "arcadey" nature of battles in modern TW titles. Pretty much every aspect of missiles, the way shields are used and more factor into this.

I actually wanted to make a series of posts about different... questionable game design decisions.

I started with warhammer and loved it, but after playing previous games(especially darthmoded) i just can't go back. it just doesnt feel right on so many levels and i want to unpack why.

And speaking of Darthmod, no, post rome 2 overhauls do not fix the game. Yes, DeI and SFO elevate their respective games but problem lies too deep for a modder to fix.

GebycrfDjqyf

ArecBalrin said:

It's been talked about before but some people don't like it being talked about.

It used to be that whether missiles actually did damage or not depended on a number things. The velocity of the missile mattered. I'm not sure exactly when it changes(it might have been Shogun 2, one of the few problems with that game) but the shooting system was overhauled entirely along with many combat systems in Rome 2.

Since then, weapon and missile damage was introduced. When a missile makes contact with the hitbox of an entity, it will take that amount of missile damage adjusted for things like ward save and armour. It doesn't matter how the missile hit, what speed(the speed doesn't change depending on the firing-arc either now), it will do the missile damage.

CA are trying to imitate the old system with the 'calibration-area', but it's accurate to say that each missile entity is aiming at individual targets rather than the area. They aren't firing in synchronised volleys either to correct for inaccuracy over distance: they're all just firing as soon as they individually have a target. This works for high-accuracy units in older Total War games(the Platoon-firing drill from Empire is for situations where unit accuracy is high), but what about modern Total War?

Zerkovich has a good video explaining the ins and outs of it, and you might spot the same problems I have:

CA ruined most of the combat systems in Rome 2, then kept doubling-down on it. Where ever they have actually improved anything, it's been by getting their 'brilliant' new ideas to resemble how things used to work.

Thanks for such a detailed answer

talonn#7575

Yea. I also prefer how archers worked in Shogun 2

mightygloin#2446

Yes the way bows and crossbows work is such a nonsense in my view as well.

• Magical trajectories
  
• Zero ducks given for friendly fire
  
• High accuracy even despite lacking LoS
  
• General crappiness of shields and
  
• Even 100 armor getting nicely destroyed by goblin arrows just exacerbating the issue
  

Had also made a poll about it last year. Not huge amount of voters, but only quarter wants to keep this broken system and more than half favour a change. /summon changer of ways

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/300816/are-you-happy-with-the-current-arcadey-arcing-of-bolt-arrow-trajectories-especially-for-xbows/p1




Yet another disappointment to see that WH3 made zero changes about this.

GebycrfDjqyf

mightygloin said:

Yes the way bows and crossbows work is such a nonsense in my view as well.

• Magical trajectories
  
• Zero ducks given for friendly fire
  
• High accuracy even despite lacking LoS
  

Had also made a poll about it last year. Not huge amount of voters, but only quarter wants to keep this broken system and more than half favour a change. /summon changer of ways

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/300816/are-you-happy-with-the-current-arcadey-arcing-of-bolt-arrow-trajectories-especially-for-xbows/p1

Your pic also shows another problem of modern total war, look at the units, why the **** they all just stand alone in the universe, a meter away from all friends and foes
Meanwhile Med2:

HarveyJames#1968

realistic system , missile accuracy stat meaningful , way too much work for CA surely.. right?..

GebycrfDjqyf

HarveyJames said:

realistic system , missile accuracy stat meaningful , way too much work for CA surely.. right?..

For modern CA it seems to be the case.

Unironically, Is there a one thing modern games do better that isn't 3d models? (campaign map doesn"t count) i mean, even SOUNDS are worse

TotalBorehammer

Processing said:

I am fine with shooting on precise target for balance, but that picture you drew is indeed dumb. They should arc their shots barely over other units. They shouldn't be able to arc their shots over the walls and hit units behind them.

Slingers do the same which is even dumber.

Ranged units being able to hit units behind walls they couldn't see effectively broke sieges in WH2. I hate it.

kratostatic#8948

So to clarify, under the old system there was a chance that a unit could "nope" an arrow hit? Because if that's the case you could correct a lot of the balance issues by adding a "missile defense" that does exactly that. Still got the "immersion" problem of course but that's fixable (and actually moddable) by lowering the arc.

GebycrfDjqyf said:

mightygloin said:

Yes the way bows and crossbows work is such a nonsense in my view as well.

• Magical trajectories
  
• Zero ducks given for friendly fire
  
• High accuracy even despite lacking LoS
  

Had also made a poll about it last year. Not huge amount of voters, but only quarter wants to keep this broken system and more than half favour a change. /summon changer of ways

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/300816/are-you-happy-with-the-current-arcadey-arcing-of-bolt-arrow-trajectories-especially-for-xbows/p1

Your pic also shows another problem of modern total war, look at the units, why the **** they all just stand alone in the universe, a meter away from all friends and foes
Meanwhile Med2:

You'll see exactly the same thing with a phalanx formation in Rome 1. Or indeed in real life - no point having a pike 2 meters long if you're standing next to the guy, in fact it's outright a bad idea.

GebycrfDjqyf

kratostatic said:

So to clarify, under the old system there was a chance that a unit could "nope" an arrow hit? Because if that's the case you could correct a lot of the balance issues by adding a "missile defense" that does exactly that. Still got the "immersion" problem of course but that's fixable (and actually moddable) by lowering the arc.

GebycrfDjqyf said:

mightygloin said:

Yes the way bows and crossbows work is such a nonsense in my view as well.

• Magical trajectories
  
• Zero ducks given for friendly fire
  
• High accuracy even despite lacking LoS
  

Had also made a poll about it last year. Not huge amount of voters, but only quarter wants to keep this broken system and more than half favour a change. /summon changer of ways

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/300816/are-you-happy-with-the-current-arcadey-arcing-of-bolt-arrow-trajectories-especially-for-xbows/p1

Your pic also shows another problem of modern total war, look at the units, why the **** they all just stand alone in the universe, a meter away from all friends and foes
Meanwhile Med2:

You'll see exactly the same thing with a phalanx formation in Rome 1. Or indeed in real life - no point having a pike 2 meters long if you're standing next to the guy, in fact it's outright a bad idea.

Dude, you complitely missed the point, individual soldiers in total war warhammer are a mess, they are far to spread out and have no formations or general order.

Chora

GebycrfDjqyf said:

HarveyJames said:

realistic system , missile accuracy stat meaningful , way too much work for CA surely.. right?..

For modern CA it seems to be the case.

Unironically, Is there a one thing modern games do better that isn't 3d models? (campaign map doesn"t count) i mean, even SOUNDS are worse

Reminds me of the change in how projectiles work from old school xcom to the semi new reincarnation. Both that the old school was way better and more advanced. In the original, the projectile actually travelled along and could hit objects that were in the way. In the new, it’s just a dice roll and animation. The bullets go right through buildings even lol

It’s a lot less immersive.
It’s a lot less interesting, in terms of impact to strategy.
It’s a lot simpler to code.

Sounds like somebodies happy to take short cuts. *looks around at state of release* it’s almost as if having that kind of mentality just seeps into all aspects of the game.

I guess that’s the difference between a great game and a good game. They’re happy to aim for good enough, so long as the money is flowing.

I wish they understood that they could make more money by being great, instead of good enough.

saweendra#3399

While i agree that archer firing archs needs tweaking and calibration distance needs a nerf for small arms fire.


The pre rome 2 combat system in full length is just crap. It had good features but over all experience was crap.


Now to clarify what each of the three accuracy stats are.


1. Accuracy = the probability of some thing hitting the intended target with in the calibration area
2. Calibration area the region where the missile will land
3. Calibration distance where lowest calibration area for a weapon applied.


Also how many times have you gotten banned ? At this point wouldn't it be better go play other games? Ideally older tw games?
There is a reason why no one has ever made a older tw clone in the past decade. They were not worth the investment as they simply don't sell.

GebycrfDjqyf

saweendra said:

While i agree that archer firing archs needs tweaking and calibration distance needs a nerf for small arms fire.


The pre rome 2 combat system in full length is just crap. It had good features but over all experience was crap.


Now to clarify what each of the three accuracy stats are.


1. Accuracy = the probability of some thing hitting the intended target with in the calibration area
2. Calibration area the region where the missile will land
3. Calibration distance where lowest calibration area for a weapon applied.


Also how many times have you gotten banned ? At this point wouldn't it be better go play other games? Ideally older tw games?
There is a reason why no one has ever made a older tw clone in the past decade. They were not worth the investment as they simply don't sell.

I'am getting banned because what i have to say is uncomfortable for CA and their love to cut corners, and i am among the best this pathetic usually casual, taseless, consumerist fanbase has to offer, so you all should be honored to have me around
I want total war to be good because it can be, and i'am presonally addicted to attempts to reinact real warfare in this game's formula, yet CA steps into casual arcade terriory insted of developing into simulation they had the best pontential for.

And nobody makes a clone of older titles because it's a niche, not because it isnt profitable. There are no warhammer tw lone too, what a smooth brain argument.

saweendra#3399

GebycrfDjqyf said:

saweendra said:

While i agree that archer firing archs needs tweaking and calibration distance needs a nerf for small arms fire.


The pre rome 2 combat system in full length is just crap. It had good features but over all experience was crap.


Now to clarify what each of the three accuracy stats are.


1. Accuracy = the probability of some thing hitting the intended target with in the calibration area
2. Calibration area the region where the missile will land
3. Calibration distance where lowest calibration area for a weapon applied.


Also how many times have you gotten banned ? At this point wouldn't it be better go play other games? Ideally older tw games?
There is a reason why no one has ever made a older tw clone in the past decade. They were not worth the investment as they simply don't sell.

I'am getting banned because what i have to say is uncomfortable for CA and their love to cut corners, and i am among the best this pathetic usually casual, taseless, consumerist fanbase has to offer, so you all should be honored to have me around
I want total war to be good because it can be, and i'am presonally addicted to attempts to reinact real warfare in this game's formula, yet CA steps into casual arcade terriory insted of developing into simulation they had the best pontential for.

And nobody makes a clone of older titles because it's a niche, not because it isnt profitable. There are no warhammer tw lone too, what a smooth brain argument.

No body makes tw wh since you need to get license from gw.

There are other wh titles.

And there are plenty of total war clones to but they have lot more common with modern tw than older titles.

The only soomth brain argument is the whole niche argument.

GebycrfDjqyf

saweendra said:

GebycrfDjqyf said:

saweendra said:

While i agree that archer firing archs needs tweaking and calibration distance needs a nerf for small arms fire.


The pre rome 2 combat system in full length is just crap. It had good features but over all experience was crap.


Now to clarify what each of the three accuracy stats are.


1. Accuracy = the probability of some thing hitting the intended target with in the calibration area
2. Calibration area the region where the missile will land
3. Calibration distance where lowest calibration area for a weapon applied.


Also how many times have you gotten banned ? At this point wouldn't it be better go play other games? Ideally older tw games?
There is a reason why no one has ever made a older tw clone in the past decade. They were not worth the investment as they simply don't sell.

I'am getting banned because what i have to say is uncomfortable for CA and their love to cut corners, and i am among the best this pathetic usually casual, taseless, consumerist fanbase has to offer, so you all should be honored to have me around
I want total war to be good because it can be, and i'am presonally addicted to attempts to reinact real warfare in this game's formula, yet CA steps into casual arcade terriory insted of developing into simulation they had the best pontential for.

And nobody makes a clone of older titles because it's a niche, not because it isnt profitable. There are no warhammer tw lone too, what a smooth brain argument.

No body makes tw wh since you need to get license from gw.

There are other wh titles.

And there are plenty of total war clones to but they have lot more common with modern tw than older titles.

The only soomth brain argument is the whole niche argument.

well maybe nobody ever heard of them because they are like the new ones, because those whithout expensive models to distract hamsters are a load of ****.

GebycrfDjqyf

Chora said:

GebycrfDjqyf said:

HarveyJames said:

realistic system , missile accuracy stat meaningful , way too much work for CA surely.. right?..

For modern CA it seems to be the case.

Unironically, Is there a one thing modern games do better that isn't 3d models? (campaign map doesn"t count) i mean, even SOUNDS are worse

Reminds me of the change in how projectiles work from old school xcom to the semi new reincarnation. Both that the old school was way better and more advanced. In the original, the projectile actually travelled along and could hit objects that were in the way. In the new, it’s just a dice roll and animation. The bullets go right through buildings even lol

It’s a lot less immersive.
It’s a lot less interesting, in terms of impact to strategy.
It’s a lot simpler to code.

Sounds like somebodies happy to take short cuts. *looks around at state of release* it’s almost as if having that kind of mentality just seeps into all aspects of the game.

I guess that’s the difference between a great game and a good game. They’re happy to aim for good enough, so long as the money is flowing.

I wish they understood that they could make more money by being great, instead of good enough.

minimum viable product

i guess at some point company like all the other got complitely overtaken by parasitic managers

Ninaran#8122

Bows arching I can understand somewhat, but broken line of sight should give major accuracy debuffs, like 80%.

Like when firing over/on top of a wall.

And crossbows shouldn't be able to arch at all.

dodge33cymru#1936

Never quite understood why this is the case for Warhammer either. But there's a bunch of dumbed down things; friendly fire is harder (or impossible in many cases), crossbows being able to fire without line of sight, the crazy accuracy of bows from long distance...

peabodyestate#9505

This is a great point - At distance arrows should pepper an area, in clusters. it shouldnt be suitable for SEMs by that logic.

However, if 1000 experienced archers are within 50 metres of a giant fantasy elephant the size of 10 houses, all arrows should hit.

Its a quandry.