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Buff and debuffs are in general very weak compared to damage spells.

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  • Pocman#6295Pocman#6295 Registered Users Posts: 5,760
    User_Clue said:

    eumaies said:

    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Pocman said:

    I think you are all overstimating the effect of buffs.


    I tested Eltharion vs Eltharion. One naked, the other with hand of glory.


    Hand of glory is one of the longer lasting cheap buff spells, at 29 seconds of duration.

    During that time, Eltharion makes from 4 to maybe 6 attacks, if he gets lucky and isn't stunned. Which literally means that hand of glory may make an extra attack land, maybe 2.

    And that was in a perfect 1v1 situation. We all know that in a real battle, characters suddenly attack lower priority targets, get lost in the mass of infantry, monsters knock their opponent, etc.

    Is literally hitting one extra attack (24 MA=24% extra hit chance) worth the spell? Imho, it doesn't.

    who uses hand of glory?

    I think anyone will stipulate that there are good buff spells and bad ones, just like there are good wind spells and bad ones.
    Hand of glory was just an example, which btw, has a higher than average. I could have used enfeebling for, which costs 6 instead of 4 and only lasts 17 seconds... that's barely 3 attacks buffed in a single entity duel.


    There are some buffs that are better than others, but as a general rule, buffs are a poor way of using WoM.
    y4g3r said:

    Pocman said:

    I think you are all overstimating the effect of buffs.


    I tested Eltharion vs Eltharion. One naked, the other with hand of glory.


    Hand of glory is one of the longer lasting cheap buff spells, at 29 seconds of duration.

    During that time, Eltharion makes from 4 to maybe 6 attacks, if he gets lucky and isn't stunned. Which literally means that hand of glory may make an extra attack land, maybe 2.

    And that was in a perfect 1v1 situation. We all know that in a real battle, characters suddenly attack lower priority targets, get lost in the mass of infantry, monsters knock their opponent, etc.

    Is literally hitting one extra attack (24 MA=24% extra hit chance) worth the spell? Imho, it doesn't.

    You're also using it in a 1v1 scenario. Instead, say Ironguts v Ironguts. They attack faster, and most, if not all of the 16 models will be in contact with the enemy. They have a base hit chance (ignoring a charge), of 35%, since both MA and MD are 36.

    With a simple +24 ma, you're increasing the hit chance almost 70%. That's 16x your 4-6 hits that are hitting more often. That's a huge bonus and will slant the combat heavily in your favour. Buff spells are very useful 1v1, but can really do work in unit combat.
    I used a 1v1 scenario because the consensus seems to be that buffs are better when used on SEs.

    In any case, 70% dps increase may seem good on paper. In practice, with a few exceptions combats between units typically last more than 1 minute. Meaning that even a longer than average buff like hand of glory would only be active for a relatively small percentage of the fight.

    Good discussion, and I am happy to use enfeebling foe as a typical example. That's not a bad return at all for 6 wom. In that period of time heavy hitter expensive characters in a one on one duel could be causing anywhere from 300 to 1000 gold value damage to each other, depending on their stats and values. And this spell could easily be the difference between 300 and 600 or 500 and 1000, with affects on both the damage you deal and the damage you take. Or cast it when you are double or triple teaming someone and their lord could straight out die. So we're talking hundreds of gold in value for a 6 wom spell. That's a very solid return.

    Losing fights also influences psychology outside of duels so if you are trying to get a unit to collapse at a key point debuffing or buffing your attacking unit serves a double purpose.
    If you take two standard fighters like Louen and Karl and hit Louen with Enfeebling foe, Karl will be about 50% more likely to hit, which only equates to ~353-470 extra damage on "average" (ignoring armor). That's not even 200 points worth of value. If they both charged before the spell then the spell provides no value or benefit. If you attack Louen with 2-3 decent melee fighters then EF won't add much benefit because Characters like that already struggle in double/triple teams or successfully separate themselves with attack animations. EF won't change that situation. In that case you didn't earn the value from EF, you earned value by surrounding something with expensive fighters.

    For 2 winds more you can hit Louen with a sprit leech for 938 guaranteed damage which is 2-3 times better and you don't need to invest in goon squads to throw at Louen or risk also getting hit in the process.
    Basically this.

    A enfeebling foe lasts 17 seconds. That means 2 to 3 attacks done by each character. Seeing how it increases the chance to hit and reduces the enemy by 24%, means the difference between using it and not using it is basically a hit and a half. For a hard hitter like KF that's like 750 damage before any kind of reduction.


    The only times were imho, buffs are noticeable, is in duels between expensive, ultra offensive shock units. A duel between maneaters vs minotaurs GW, for example.

    i am not agreeing with enticity, a 200% increase in duration would be too much. And i agree that some buffs are better than others. But as a general rule, yeah, the spell books are still missing a significant balance pass.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,513
    User_Clue said:

    eumaies said:

    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Pocman said:

    I think you are all overstimating the effect of buffs.


    I tested Eltharion vs Eltharion. One naked, the other with hand of glory.


    Hand of glory is one of the longer lasting cheap buff spells, at 29 seconds of duration.

    During that time, Eltharion makes from 4 to maybe 6 attacks, if he gets lucky and isn't stunned. Which literally means that hand of glory may make an extra attack land, maybe 2.

    And that was in a perfect 1v1 situation. We all know that in a real battle, characters suddenly attack lower priority targets, get lost in the mass of infantry, monsters knock their opponent, etc.

    Is literally hitting one extra attack (24 MA=24% extra hit chance) worth the spell? Imho, it doesn't.

    who uses hand of glory?

    I think anyone will stipulate that there are good buff spells and bad ones, just like there are good wind spells and bad ones.
    Hand of glory was just an example, which btw, has a higher than average. I could have used enfeebling for, which costs 6 instead of 4 and only lasts 17 seconds... that's barely 3 attacks buffed in a single entity duel.


    There are some buffs that are better than others, but as a general rule, buffs are a poor way of using WoM.
    y4g3r said:

    Pocman said:

    I think you are all overstimating the effect of buffs.


    I tested Eltharion vs Eltharion. One naked, the other with hand of glory.


    Hand of glory is one of the longer lasting cheap buff spells, at 29 seconds of duration.

    During that time, Eltharion makes from 4 to maybe 6 attacks, if he gets lucky and isn't stunned. Which literally means that hand of glory may make an extra attack land, maybe 2.

    And that was in a perfect 1v1 situation. We all know that in a real battle, characters suddenly attack lower priority targets, get lost in the mass of infantry, monsters knock their opponent, etc.

    Is literally hitting one extra attack (24 MA=24% extra hit chance) worth the spell? Imho, it doesn't.

    You're also using it in a 1v1 scenario. Instead, say Ironguts v Ironguts. They attack faster, and most, if not all of the 16 models will be in contact with the enemy. They have a base hit chance (ignoring a charge), of 35%, since both MA and MD are 36.

    With a simple +24 ma, you're increasing the hit chance almost 70%. That's 16x your 4-6 hits that are hitting more often. That's a huge bonus and will slant the combat heavily in your favour. Buff spells are very useful 1v1, but can really do work in unit combat.
    I used a 1v1 scenario because the consensus seems to be that buffs are better when used on SEs.

    In any case, 70% dps increase may seem good on paper. In practice, with a few exceptions combats between units typically last more than 1 minute. Meaning that even a longer than average buff like hand of glory would only be active for a relatively small percentage of the fight.

    Good discussion, and I am happy to use enfeebling foe as a typical example. That's not a bad return at all for 6 wom. In that period of time heavy hitter expensive characters in a one on one duel could be causing anywhere from 300 to 1000 gold value damage to each other, depending on their stats and values. And this spell could easily be the difference between 300 and 600 or 500 and 1000, with affects on both the damage you deal and the damage you take. Or cast it when you are double or triple teaming someone and their lord could straight out die. So we're talking hundreds of gold in value for a 6 wom spell. That's a very solid return.

    Losing fights also influences psychology outside of duels so if you are trying to get a unit to collapse at a key point debuffing or buffing your attacking unit serves a double purpose.
    If you take two standard fighters like Louen and Karl and hit Louen with Enfeebling foe, Karl will be about 50% more likely to hit, which only equates to ~353-470 extra damage on "average" (ignoring armor). That's not even 200 points worth of value. If they both charged before the spell then the spell provides no value or benefit. If you attack Louen with 2-3 decent melee fighters then EF won't add much benefit because Characters like that already struggle in double/triple teams or successfully separate themselves with attack animations. EF won't change that situation. In that case you didn't earn the value from EF, you earned value by surrounding something with expensive fighters.

    For 2 winds more you can hit Louen with a sprit leech for 938 guaranteed damage which is 2-3 times better and you don't need to invest in goon squads to throw at Louen or risk also getting hit in the process.
    Any reason you’re ignoring that he also takes half as much damage? And that most fights in this game are not 1v1s?
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,513
    Oh ok you do acknowledge double and triple teams and fights amidst units. Yet you somehow wave it away as if instadying in 17 seconds with your lord instead of making it out intact is no difference.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572
    eumaies said:

    User_Clue said:

    eumaies said:

    Pocman said:

    eumaies said:

    Pocman said:

    I think you are all overstimating the effect of buffs.


    I tested Eltharion vs Eltharion. One naked, the other with hand of glory.


    Hand of glory is one of the longer lasting cheap buff spells, at 29 seconds of duration.

    During that time, Eltharion makes from 4 to maybe 6 attacks, if he gets lucky and isn't stunned. Which literally means that hand of glory may make an extra attack land, maybe 2.

    And that was in a perfect 1v1 situation. We all know that in a real battle, characters suddenly attack lower priority targets, get lost in the mass of infantry, monsters knock their opponent, etc.

    Is literally hitting one extra attack (24 MA=24% extra hit chance) worth the spell? Imho, it doesn't.

    who uses hand of glory?

    I think anyone will stipulate that there are good buff spells and bad ones, just like there are good wind spells and bad ones.
    Hand of glory was just an example, which btw, has a higher than average. I could have used enfeebling for, which costs 6 instead of 4 and only lasts 17 seconds... that's barely 3 attacks buffed in a single entity duel.


    There are some buffs that are better than others, but as a general rule, buffs are a poor way of using WoM.
    y4g3r said:

    Pocman said:

    I think you are all overstimating the effect of buffs.


    I tested Eltharion vs Eltharion. One naked, the other with hand of glory.


    Hand of glory is one of the longer lasting cheap buff spells, at 29 seconds of duration.

    During that time, Eltharion makes from 4 to maybe 6 attacks, if he gets lucky and isn't stunned. Which literally means that hand of glory may make an extra attack land, maybe 2.

    And that was in a perfect 1v1 situation. We all know that in a real battle, characters suddenly attack lower priority targets, get lost in the mass of infantry, monsters knock their opponent, etc.

    Is literally hitting one extra attack (24 MA=24% extra hit chance) worth the spell? Imho, it doesn't.

    You're also using it in a 1v1 scenario. Instead, say Ironguts v Ironguts. They attack faster, and most, if not all of the 16 models will be in contact with the enemy. They have a base hit chance (ignoring a charge), of 35%, since both MA and MD are 36.

    With a simple +24 ma, you're increasing the hit chance almost 70%. That's 16x your 4-6 hits that are hitting more often. That's a huge bonus and will slant the combat heavily in your favour. Buff spells are very useful 1v1, but can really do work in unit combat.
    I used a 1v1 scenario because the consensus seems to be that buffs are better when used on SEs.

    In any case, 70% dps increase may seem good on paper. In practice, with a few exceptions combats between units typically last more than 1 minute. Meaning that even a longer than average buff like hand of glory would only be active for a relatively small percentage of the fight.

    Good discussion, and I am happy to use enfeebling foe as a typical example. That's not a bad return at all for 6 wom. In that period of time heavy hitter expensive characters in a one on one duel could be causing anywhere from 300 to 1000 gold value damage to each other, depending on their stats and values. And this spell could easily be the difference between 300 and 600 or 500 and 1000, with affects on both the damage you deal and the damage you take. Or cast it when you are double or triple teaming someone and their lord could straight out die. So we're talking hundreds of gold in value for a 6 wom spell. That's a very solid return.

    Losing fights also influences psychology outside of duels so if you are trying to get a unit to collapse at a key point debuffing or buffing your attacking unit serves a double purpose.
    If you take two standard fighters like Louen and Karl and hit Louen with Enfeebling foe, Karl will be about 50% more likely to hit, which only equates to ~353-470 extra damage on "average" (ignoring armor). That's not even 200 points worth of value. If they both charged before the spell then the spell provides no value or benefit. If you attack Louen with 2-3 decent melee fighters then EF won't add much benefit because Characters like that already struggle in double/triple teams or successfully separate themselves with attack animations. EF won't change that situation. In that case you didn't earn the value from EF, you earned value by surrounding something with expensive fighters.

    For 2 winds more you can hit Louen with a sprit leech for 938 guaranteed damage which is 2-3 times better and you don't need to invest in goon squads to throw at Louen or risk also getting hit in the process.
    Any reason you’re ignoring that he also takes half as much damage? And that most fights in this game are not 1v1s?
    I'm not trying to ignore any part of it. Karl takes about 400 less damage on average. That's about an earth blood worth of HP I believe. That requires you to invest your Karl into the fight though, whereas spirit leach does not. Every point of damage your Karl takes is value you wouldn't have had to pay with spirit leech. If you are already in a fight though that can't be avoided, then EF is fine (although there might be better solutions).

    And yes, EF is inconsequential in a Gooning beyond the 400/400 damage dealt/avoided (depending on what's actually fighting obviously). Louen can only ever try to hit one thing at a time so you will never get better protection out of the spell. Once you're investing in Gooning him though, the spell becomes less impactful. Giving SE more than one target to focus on will almost always lower the attack rate due to staggering and/or wasted time due to changing targets, so the value of the MA debuff is reduced. If you have more than one entity you can attack in the the flank which already negates 40-75% of the targets MD. A Karl attacking in the rear is only going to do ~100 damage more on average. The only entity that receives the full benefit of the spell is the primary one Louen is targeting. It's not 3 times better just because you have 3 entities fighting. Once you have 3 fighters attacking Louen EF no longer matters and won't have a significant impact on the result; definitely not more impact than the guaranteed effect of spirit leech, which doesn't require as much maneuvering and investment to use.

    The numbers I used are also a bit generous because they assume 4 attacks and don't account for damage resistances. Spirit leech does its damage with no questions asked (except Magic resist). EF needs you to have a few pieces in the right place at the right time, and you're still relying on luck at the end of the day rather than guaranteed results.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,513
    Nah. Not every multi-unit brawl in the game is automatically giving you autohits.

    But even your base of 800 damage in a duel is perfectly acceptable for a 6 wom spell. Or get twice as much value if you overcast.

    Spirit leech is a decent spell but it’s basically the one good spell in lore of death and it works only on specific units. A well timed buff and debuff can be used on anything depending on the need.

    And while ultra unit sizes haven’t helped debuffs enfeebling has been a staple of competitive play forever with very good results.
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572
    eumaies said:

    Nah. Not every multi-unit brawl in the game is automatically giving you autohits.

    But even your base of 800 damage in a duel is perfectly acceptable for a 6 wom spell. Or get twice as much value if you overcast.

    Spirit leech is a decent spell but it’s basically the one good spell in lore of death and it works only on specific units. A well timed buff and debuff can be used on anything depending on the need.

    And while ultra unit sizes haven’t helped debuffs enfeebling has been a staple of competitive play forever with very good results.

    I'm not saying you get autohits, I'm saying that in the specific scenario of Karl attacking Louen in the rear, Karl only goes from 80% CtH to 86% CtH, so EF didn't really matter for that Karl because he isn't being attacked and his odds of hitting didn't improve that much. Attacks in the side add about 275 damage on average. Keep in mind this is all based on chance. And 800 wasn't the "base" that's an impossibly ideal situation where neither charged, neither has armor, and both get out the maximum 4 attacks possible before the spell expires.

    The game is too messy to actually get results that good. Assuming they both cost 2.2k you'd be lucky to get a 200 point value return on your investment during that duel while spirit leech would have guaranteed you 350. If you want to look at a less ideal spell then amber spear still returns 188 value on average and that's not even its ideal use. Adding more fighters into the mix won't necessarily improve your return because it adds to the mess. A Louen fighting 2+ units at once might not attack as much, or he might attack less valuable targets, etc. He might turn his rear to the most dangerous target or one of the fighters might have charged during the effect, which reduces the value of the MD debuff. Louen's attack animation might even separate him from the fighters you're targeting him with which wastes valuable time.

    Spirit leech will always do what you expect it to do, and consistency has its own value. It works on single entities, Cav, Monsters, and a decent amount of infantry. It now does pretty consistent damage between 700-938. Infantry can still be a bit tricky because you'll only kill 7-14 depending on the infantry so you might end up with 500-600 instead, but if you hit an infantry like Men at arms or chosen, it's still do around 900 damage (not that you would ever target a cheap unit with a spell anyway). You need to pick ideal targets to get the best value from the spell, but that's even more true for enfeebling foe.

    You also undervalued Death. FoB can still do over 5k damage to infantry and cavalry and aspect of Dread knight is a good way to get magic damage and potentially proc terror, while Purple sun is a solid campaign spell that can sometimes work in multiplayer.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,513
    so spirit leech might get 350 value vs a low HP expensive lord; or vs a high HP and/or less expensive lord it could easily get significantly less value (your damage range i don't agree with, i often see it do closer to 600). We can go back and forth at length with hypothetical ranges for each. But it's clear that the 6wom EF is in the ballpark for value of another good spell, and if you want to pay 10wom for overcast (which i often do) the efficiency ticks up. It's useful vs a variety of units. and for this reason it's a fairly common spell used in a variety of builds and has been for a long time. I'm sure if every lore of magic had spirit leech you might see it a bit more often than if every lore had EF, but EF is perfectly useful in the lore that it's in.


  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572
    eumaies said:

    so spirit leech might get 350 value vs a low HP expensive lord; or vs a high HP and/or less expensive lord it could easily get significantly less value (your damage range i don't agree with, i often see it do closer to 600). We can go back and forth at length with hypothetical ranges for each. But it's clear that the 6wom EF is in the ballpark for value of another good spell, and if you want to pay 10wom for overcast (which i often do) the efficiency ticks up. It's useful vs a variety of units. and for this reason it's a fairly common spell used in a variety of builds and has been for a long time. I'm sure if every lore of magic had spirit leech you might see it a bit more often than if every lore had EF, but EF is perfectly useful in the lore that it's in.


    eumaies said:

    so spirit leech might get 350 value vs a low HP expensive lord; or vs a high HP and/or less expensive lord it could easily get significantly less value (your damage range i don't agree with, i often see it do closer to 600). We can go back and forth at length with hypothetical ranges for each. But it's clear that the 6wom EF is in the ballpark for value of another good spell, and if you want to pay 10wom for overcast (which i often do) the efficiency ticks up. It's useful vs a variety of units. and for this reason it's a fairly common spell used in a variety of builds and has been for a long time. I'm sure if every lore of magic had spirit leech you might see it a bit more often than if every lore had EF, but EF is perfectly useful in the lore that it's in.


    It's not hypothetical. Game 3's version of spirit leech does a flat 63 damage every second for 14 seconds. Fate of bjuna does 10 damage 21 times to 25 entities. I believe they removed the damage chance system and changed the damage profile of all direct damage spells to mostly be stronger than they were in game 2. Flock of doom now does 5 damage instead of 6 but hits 25 entitles instead of 18.

    I think the worst HP to cost ratio on any SE are Feral Bastiladons where you will only get 80 value from spirit leech. Keep in mind though, that same logic applies to EF because its value is also based on the HP/cost ratio of the units involved, and a cheap unit with a lot of HP probably doesn't do as much damage as Louen. You won't get as much value targeting a Bastiladon with EF either. If we trade Louen with a Bastilidon than we're only shielding Karl from around 104 damage, and doing an extra 253 assuming 3 hits, and we actually account for armor. That's around 59 value from the spell and I can make that worse by swapping Karl for another weaker entity like a Wizard.

    200 value is close to the perfect case scenario for enfeebling foe. The best situation I cab think of for the spell is if you have a Tyrion and 2 nobles surrounding another Tyrion. All the models are stationary for the duration of the spell and they all make 3 attacks with the target Tyrion only ever facing and attacking your Tyrion and the nobles attacking the side. That saves 235 damage and adds 450 so if the Tyrions cost 1900 (and didn't use any other abilities for some reason) that would net you 265 value. That's an impossibly ideal situating for that spell and a spirit leech would have still earned you 37% more value for 25% more winds with much less effort required. Or Earth blood your characters after the fight for 250+ value since they're all next to each other so that way you don't have to rely on luck to earn value. Heck you could have also just found one of the high elves' Cav and done 300+ value in just damage using Miasma for 1 WoM less. As long you aren't picking poor targets intentionally or accidentally, then EF will still be behind a lot of spells.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,513
    i did a couple spirit leeches before my last post and the damage still varies per cast; i don't think they removed the chance resistance. Damage was about 600 one time and 700 the next.

    agree that both EF and SL have better and worse targets. And agree as I said in the last post that SL is all around a more desirable spell than EF. But that's a high bar since SL is a very in-demand spell.

    As for the tyrion example yes for 8 WoM vs tyrion SL generates about 325 value (if tyrion cost 2k and SL did 700 damage) while for 6 WoM tyrion in duel with tyrion EF generates just 235. That's how my math checks out so I don't know what assumptions you're making in your triple team scenario. You can assume spirit leech does more damage and i'm fine with that but i don't find that's consistently the case.

    As for your other comparisons, note that spirit leech has a 100 range and EF a 200 range, which definitely factors into spells' costs and power level. So that's a big plus in its usability. Melkoths I don't know what kind of elvish cav you were thinking about (and it's presumably better on ultra than it was before) but for 5 wom you get a 100M short range spell that does 150 value damage to a unit of winged lancers, at least in the test I just ran. So EF is not under-performing relative to that benchmark, especially since EF is not limited to hitting large model count units the way melkoths is (though i'm a big fan of melkoths).

    I don't think it's that easy to make assumptions about all the factors that go into hitting when you're getting gooned; from long experience i've seen major differences from these debuffs in those situations vs gooning situations that lacked those debuffs, they turned fights much more decisively than spirit leech would've.

    anyhow, i will concede that the switch to ultra did not do debuffs/buffs any favours relative to AOE damage spells which now are better than before. But by and large there are definitely some solid debuff/buff spells and their versatility and relative ease of use make them fairly popular and effective.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,357
    edited April 2022
    How come a 17s enfeebling foe only = 400dmg in fight when you say it increases dmg by 50%?

    He has attack interval of 4 so he should be able to do 5 hits during 17s duration

    If you say his damage goes up by 50% thats +235 dmg

    So 5 x 235 is up to over 1k more dmg

    Than he also recieves up to 1k less dmg

    Now this is assuming all are hitting which they will not not but likely hit ratio will be 70%+ so average dmg should be closer to 700 in that example without counting dmg blocked and possibility of being attacked by many enemies
  • User_ClueUser_Clue Registered Users Posts: 1,572
    @eumaies you're right, I just tested it to on a single entity, and it is variable, it's just consistent on multi entities so I can agree that the difference isn't so unfavorable. I also laid out my assumptions pretty clearly. Just some quick chicken scratch math it's 3*(470*0.7)*0.24 which is 237 which is about what we both got, but the nobles only do around 3*(375*0.7)*0.14 which is 110 for a combined 457 110+110+237). It only adds 14% chance to hit for the nobles because they're in the flank and the 0.6 MD modifier applies after EF.

    How come a 17s enfeebling foe only = 400dmg in fight when you say it increases dmg by 50%?

    He has attack interval of 4 so he should be able to do 5 hits during 17s duration

    If you say his damage goes up by 50% thats +235 dmg

    So 5 x 235 is up to over 1k more dmg

    Than he also recieves up to 1k less dmg

    Now this is assuming all are hitting which they will not not but likely hit ratio will be 70%+ so average dmg should be closer to 700 in that example without counting dmg blocked and possibility of being attacked by many enemies

    That's not how the math works. If he has a theoretical 50% chance to hit and he attacks 5 times, then that's an average of 1175 damage (5*470*0.5). Adding +24% give him 1739 damage on average which is only 564 more. It adds up to 24% of the damage they could if they hit 100% of the time, it doesn't add a flat 50% damage. If the hit chance is already 70% then you can't physically do 50% more damage. ~30% of that is blocked by armor so it's only around 400 damage. And you can only get 5 hits in if you did an attack the second EF activates, so 4 is the most you should ever expect.
    "Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it.
    I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"


    -- The Lionhearted
  • Pocman#6295Pocman#6295 Registered Users Posts: 5,760
    edited April 2022

    How come a 17s enfeebling foe only = 400dmg in fight when you say it increases dmg by 50%?

    He has attack interval of 4 so he should be able to do 5 hits during 17s duration

    If you say his damage goes up by 50% thats +235 dmg

    So 5 x 235 is up to over 1k more dmg

    Than he also recieves up to 1k less dmg

    Now this is assuming all are hitting which they will not not but likely hit ratio will be 70%+ so average dmg should be closer to 700 in that example without counting dmg blocked and possibility of being attacked by many enemies

    Your math is wrong. First, 17 seconds is not 5 hits, is 3 at best, due to attack interval not being the same the time from one attack to another one. In practice, it's more like 3 attacks, sometimes 2.

    Then, you are assuming all will hit, which they won't. That is the whole point of enfeebling foe, making more of your attacks hit and lesss of theirs. In practice, the base hit chance is 35%, 59% once enfeebling foe is applied. So if without it your character would hit one in 3, with it applied it would hit a bit less than 2 on 3.

    In practice, enfeebling foe means that you will hit almost one extra hit, and receive almost one less hit.
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