Dwarfs NEEED to be buffed

VikingHuscal1066

I'm just kind of just making a thread right now, not that I don't care about this topic, I'm just wanting to make a smallish thread for the fun of it.


I do really think that the "elder races" of Warhammer, such as dwarfs elves, and kinda lizardmen themselves should feel like they have a higher quality to their units, as they're supposed to be constantly outnumbered by the other races they fight and they make better weapons and all that kind of stuff. But the Dwarfs need it more than anyone else.

I mean, if you just take a few minutes to think about it, the dwarfs are SUPER limited in what they're able to do.

I mean, yeah, they've got a great array of powerful ranged units, but their infantry is durable, but that's about it for them.


Now, I'm not saying that the dwarf infantry units should be so buffed that dwarf miners beat chaos chosen with only a couple of losses, but their infantry units should be buffed to be far better than what they are currently.

I honestly think that in some ways, CA should rebalance most units to be more like Rome 2's units, but better, with the more professional and elite units feeling like they were of higher quality than other units and so on. I mean, there were a good number of professional or elite level units that had MAs of 50 or higher, so I think that they should do something similar, but take the different races into account when rebalancing the units. Not including RoR units, as those are supposed to be super units and all.

The best units from human races should only have MAs of 40-45 at the highest, while something like the High Elf Swordmasters should have like 60 MA and 45 MD. I know that may seem high, but you must remember, that those guys are elves who have spent hundreds of years becoming swordmasters, and they're pretty expensive as well, so it would make sense that they should be so powerful.

The point is that upping the basic Dwarf Warriors' MA attack to 35 or at least 30 would hardly break the game, but rather actually make the dwarf units feel far more elite than they are now and would actually make them a threat to low tier units like un-upgraded goblins and skaven.

There should be a few tense moments when you see another player setting up a solid line of Dwarfs or Chaos Dwarf infantry and you know that just charging your goblins or even orcs into them will most likely see them chewed up and spit out.

I just think that with the Dwarfs being so limited as they are, that they need a nice buff to their infantry so that they can actually make it later into the campaign where they can get some of their sick artillery and such.

Fingolfin_the-Golden

I think they do ok, but understand your concerns with warriors.
I will always be up for more dwarf content though.
Vs dlc with chaos dwarfs will be awesome.

VikingHuscal1066

Fingolfin_the-Golden said:

I think they do ok, but understand your concerns with warriors.
I will always be up for more dwarf content though.
Vs dlc with chaos dwarfs will be awesome.

Yeah, I agree, that would make for a awesome DLC pack.

Though I think that dwarf infantry should get a buff just because I've seen some times where dwarf warriors get absolutely mauled by goblins and such low level stuff in a single battle.

And I think their super expensive Ironbreakers only have like 30 MA at most.

Fingolfin_the-Golden

Ion breakers need better shields.
Warriors may need a buff, maybe we get some other useful mid tier infantry in a dlc.

GreenColoured

Buff? Hell no they're one of the stronger Factions.


Reworked and given more toys to play with to diversify what they can bring to the battlefield? Hell yes.


Dwarfs only suffer from the fact that GW more or less abandoned them and didn't give them all that much support, which is reflected in how relatively static their playstyle is.


Ask for more varied units to mix things up, don't buff already powerful units

VikingHuscal1066

Fingolfin_the-Golden said:

Ion breakers need better shields.
Warriors may need a buff, maybe we get some other useful mid tier infantry in a dlc.

Yeah, it would be nice to see some stuff like that as well.

I just really don't want the dwarf infantry getting outfought by stuff that's of far less quality.

VikingHuscal1066

GreenColoured said:

Buff? Hell no they're one of the stronger Factions.


Reworked and given more toys to play with to diversify what they can bring to the battlefield? Hell yes.


Dwarfs only suffer from the fact that GW more or less abandoned them and didn't give them all that much support, which is reflected in how relatively static their playstyle is.


Ask for more varied units to mix things up, don't buff already powerful units

I have to disagree dude.

The dwarf warriors should be one of the best "lower tier" units in the game, and shouldn't be getting mauled by goblins or skavenslaves.

And it's not that I want them to be given everything from other races, but rather excel at what they do.

I want to see them get some things like Rune Guardians as a high quality monstrous infantry unit, but their infantry could use a nice buff so they're actually a threat and don't get mauled by really low tier units.

Bmnoble981

I think Dawi warriors are fairly good, I tend to keep using them till mid game almost never bothering with longbeards and just switch straight to Ironbreakers.

I don't expect the shielded variations to outfight units I expect them to hold the line so my ranged troops and artillery can rack up the kills. Would like them to get higher quality shields though with the 50% missile block chance instead of the 30% they get now.

Now the two hander versions of all Dawi infantry need some love, I never feel they have a place in any of my armies, they get shredded by range and in melee combat, sure they are fine for flanking but most of the time your out numbered and I would rather have an extra unit of shielded troops if I am going to have a choice of what infantry to include in an army.

Vanilla_Gorilla

We'll see when IE is out.

VikingHuscal1066 said:

I'm just kind of just making a thread right now, not that I don't care about this topic, I'm just wanting to make a smallish thread for the fun of it.

This makes me smile. You're a good forumer, you keep doing you dude. I hope you enjoy this thread and making a bunch of replies in it. Respect.

VikingHuscal1066

steam_164574690560YHylGxz said:

I think Dawi warriors are fairly good, I tend to keep using them till mid game almost never bothering with longbeards and just switch straight to Ironbreakers.

I don't expect the shielded variations to outfight units I expect them to hold the line so my ranged troops and artillery can rack up the kills. Would like them to get higher quality shields though with the 50% missile block chance instead of the 30% they get now.

Now the two hander versions of all Dawi infantry need some love, I never feel they have a place in any of my armies, they get shredded by range and in melee combat, sure they are fine for flanking but most of the time your out numbered and I would rather have an extra unit of shielded troops if I am going to have a choice of what infantry to include in an army.

Well, it's not so much that I want the shielded Dwarf Warriors to be destroying much higher tier stuff or anything, but they should at least be able to fight on the same level as your basic orcs, and beat stuff like skaven or or goblins. They should be able to at least trade blows properly.

And I do agree that the great weapon guys for the dwarfs should be far more effective.

I honestly think that they should just up the cost of the dwarf warriors by 100 or 200 gold to match their buffed stats.

VikingHuscal1066

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

We'll see when IE is out.


This makes me smile. You're a good forumer, you keep doing you dude. I hope you enjoy this thread and making a bunch of replies in it. Respect.

Yeah, I guess we will see.

And thanks dude. I just like having fun on the forums.

I made a fun little thread about legendary heroes if you're interested.

Arsenic

They need something to encourage a different playstyle.

Their units don't really lend them to anything other than the traditional Dwarf battle of forcing you to come to them via firepower then grinding you out in a dull melee fight.

They have gyrocopters but they're so flimsy they can be taken out by a flock of bats. They have skirmish units but they are too slow to avoid being mown down by cavalry.

Don't know about buffing, but maybe there are some new units that could encourage a different build and not make every Dwarf battle feel very similar. It doesn't take a lot, adding a cheap unit like Rangers changed the Helfs from an always defensive faction for example.

User_Clue

VikingHuscal1066 said:

GreenColoured said:

Buff? Hell no they're one of the stronger Factions.


Reworked and given more toys to play with to diversify what they can bring to the battlefield? Hell yes.


Dwarfs only suffer from the fact that GW more or less abandoned them and didn't give them all that much support, which is reflected in how relatively static their playstyle is.


Ask for more varied units to mix things up, don't buff already powerful units

I have to disagree dude.

The dwarf warriors should be one of the best "lower tier" units in the game, and shouldn't be getting mauled by goblins or skavenslaves.

And it's not that I want them to be given everything from other races, but rather excel at what they do.

I want to see them get some things like Rune Guardians as a high quality monstrous infantry unit, but their infantry could use a nice buff so they're actually a threat and don't get mauled by really low tier units.

Are we playing the same game? Dwarf Warriors are one of the strongest low tier units in the game. Goblins and skaven don't even come close to threatening them and you have to remember that they're outnumbered almost 2:1. They could use a slight adjustment on some units, but they're mostly fine. A lot of their unit stats are pretty well aligned with TT, Though they could theoretically use slightly better offensive stats like CB on some units.

Also, do you know any human units with more than 45 MA. The only ones that come close are some of the "superhuman" Kislev units, and you could argue units like dragon guard if you count BvL. If that's the case, then Swordmasters already have 60 MA and they have 48 MD with MP.

The dwarfs also have some of the strongest damage dealers and some fast light infantry too. Hammerers have the highest AP Weapon strength of any infantry and slayers have 40 speed and a crazy 30 BvL and CB which makes them practically unarmored Chosen or vampires.

VikingHuscal1066

Arsenic said:

They need something to encourage a different playstyle.

Their units don't really lend them to anything other than the traditional Dwarf battle of forcing you to come to them via firepower then grinding you out in a dull melee fight.

They have gyrocopters but they're so flimsy they can be taken out by a flock of bats. They have skirmish units but they are too slow to avoid being mown down by cavalry.

Don't know about buffing, but maybe there are some new units that could encourage a different build and not make every Dwarf battle feel very similar. It doesn't take a lot, adding a cheap unit like Rangers changed the Helfs from an always defensive faction for example.

Well, that's kind of why I think that most if not all dwarf infantry should get a nice buff. So they're much more of a threat.

I remember Arch and a couple of other people talking about the TT rosters way back when Warhammer 1 had been announced and I remember them saying stuff like dwarf ranged infantry could see off most light cavalry with ease and how they were hard to beat in a face to face fight.

My point is, that the Dwarfs shouldn't be trying to do a million different things, as they are supposed to be pretty straight forward and traditional and all that, so I don't think that they should be getting tons of things that change up what they do, but have what they do have just do things a bit better than they currently do.

I do think that things like dwarf rangers should be quite the deadly stealth unit, especially the great weapon ones.

I just really want what the dwarfs have to be of better quality and such, as that's how dwarfs would do things.

VikingHuscal1066

User_Clue said:

Are we playing the same game? Dwarf Warriors are one of the strongest low tier units in the game. Goblins and skaven don't even come close to threatening them and you have to remember that they're outnumbered almost 2:1. They could use a slight adjustment on some units, but they're mostly fine. A lot of their unit stats are pretty well aligned with TT, Though they could theoretically use slightly better offensive stats like CB on some units.

Also, do you know any human units with more than 45 MA. The only ones that come close are some of the "superhuman" Kislev units, and you could argue units like dragon guard if you count BvL. If that's the case, then Swordmasters already have 60 MA and they have 48 MD with MP.

The dwarfs also have some of the strongest damage dealers and some fast light infantry too. Hammerers have the highest AP Weapon strength of any infantry and slayers have 40 speed and a crazy 30 BvL and CB which makes them practically unarmored Chosen or vampires.

Well, I've just seen dwarf warriors get mauled by goblin and orc units with a single WAAAGH! popping off in Warhammer 2, so I don't think it's quite as one sided as you think.

I just think that if the Dwarf Warriors only have like 100 or 120 guys in their units at most, they should have the stats to reflect their better quality and all that.

And I thought the Swordmasters had lower stats. So thanks for that.

But I wouldn't mind some of the things like Great Swords, great weapon Tsar Guards, and the great weapon Dragon Guards having like 45 MA, as they do have great weapons and anti infantry as well. They're supposed to be the elite of the humans, so such stats would be understandable.

I just think that the dwarf infantry could really stand to have some nice buffs so that they can really be worth more.

aMint1

VikingHuscal1066 said:

Arsenic said:

They need something to encourage a different playstyle.

Their units don't really lend them to anything other than the traditional Dwarf battle of forcing you to come to them via firepower then grinding you out in a dull melee fight.

They have gyrocopters but they're so flimsy they can be taken out by a flock of bats. They have skirmish units but they are too slow to avoid being mown down by cavalry.

Don't know about buffing, but maybe there are some new units that could encourage a different build and not make every Dwarf battle feel very similar. It doesn't take a lot, adding a cheap unit like Rangers changed the Helfs from an always defensive faction for example.

Well, that's kind of why I think that most if not all dwarf infantry should get a nice buff. So they're much more of a threat.

I remember Arch and a couple of other people talking about the TT rosters way back when Warhammer 1 had been announced and I remember them saying stuff like dwarf ranged infantry could see off most light cavalry with ease and how they were hard to beat in a face to face fight.

My point is, that the Dwarfs shouldn't be trying to do a million different things, as they are supposed to be pretty straight forward and traditional and all that, so I don't think that they should be getting tons of things that change up what they do, but have what they do have just do things a bit better than they currently do.

I do think that things like dwarf rangers should be quite the deadly stealth unit, especially the great weapon ones.

I just really want what the dwarfs have to be of better quality and such, as that's how dwarfs would do things.

Dwarfs already do what they do really well. They don't need buffs to be able to do it.

boosykes

This sounds like power creep to me. One thing some fans forget is that this is not the lore, this is a game first. things need balance you cant just make your favorite race overpowered. You said your self that dwarfs have plenty of ranged firepower. What is the most overpowered units in warhammer , one hint its not cavalry. This constant buffing nonsense needs to stop, if when mortal comes out dwarfs are struggling than a slight boost may be in order. But buffing your favorite units because its lore accurate is the wrong approach. Overpowered stuff is fun to play with literally once then it sucks because the game is far to easy. This is single player that doesn't mean elder races need a big red i win button.

They need to add a mode where legendary lords can be killed like 3 kingdoms take some wounds then eventually die would be sweet if they could lose limbs. also drop the replenishment across the board dramatically. allow faster replenishment when garrisoning a city. But still no where near the two turns and your healed like now. Battles need meaning if you can make a whole new army in 2 turns heal fully in 2 turns and your legendary lord is back in 4 turns then nothing matters. Thats part of the Arcady feel people always complain about. All battles become win or lose and low level units become totally worthless.

If you added replenishment to ammo, drastically reduced replenishment, had a mode where legendary lords could eventually be killed, Suddenly battles would mean something more than win or lose allowing for more strategy. You could have an army of scaven slaves do there job and soak ammo before using your main army. If high tear units costed a tun and took several turns to recruit and had slower replenishment than low tear troops(taking longer to train) then there would be some choices in warhammer.

Right now the game lacks strategy The game plays like a spreadsheet with almost no choices especially late game. When you can recruit high tier units you do a lot of units become totally outclassed. If ammo was tied to replenishment then more ranged wouldn't always be the best answer. Doom stack wouldn't be the only army's a lot of people see because they would need to make choices about costs and time needed as well as slower replenishment on high tear units. Something like well ya that unit hits hard but if it takes a beating there's going to be a crazy recovery time.
You should be encouraged to make choices and have multiple army in this game not lean so heavily on your legendary lords stack.

talonn

I always thought they're in good spot

User_Clue

VikingHuscal1066 said:

User_Clue said:

Are we playing the same game? Dwarf Warriors are one of the strongest low tier units in the game. Goblins and skaven don't even come close to threatening them and you have to remember that they're outnumbered almost 2:1. They could use a slight adjustment on some units, but they're mostly fine. A lot of their unit stats are pretty well aligned with TT, Though they could theoretically use slightly better offensive stats like CB on some units.

Also, do you know any human units with more than 45 MA. The only ones that come close are some of the "superhuman" Kislev units, and you could argue units like dragon guard if you count BvL. If that's the case, then Swordmasters already have 60 MA and they have 48 MD with MP.

The dwarfs also have some of the strongest damage dealers and some fast light infantry too. Hammerers have the highest AP Weapon strength of any infantry and slayers have 40 speed and a crazy 30 BvL and CB which makes them practically unarmored Chosen or vampires.

Well, I've just seen dwarf warriors get mauled by goblin and orc units with a single WAAAGH! popping off in Warhammer 2, so I don't think it's quite as one sided as you think.

I just think that if the Dwarf Warriors only have like 100 or 120 guys in their units at most, they should have the stats to reflect their better quality and all that.

And I thought the Swordmasters had lower stats. So thanks for that.

But I wouldn't mind some of the things like Great Swords, great weapon Tsar Guards, and the great weapon Dragon Guards having like 45 MA, as they do have great weapons and anti infantry as well. They're supposed to be the elite of the humans, so such stats would be understandable.

I just think that the dwarf infantry could really stand to have some nice buffs so that they can really be worth more.

Increasing everyone's stats just inflates the issue you're talking about and accomplishes nothing. What's the point of increasing DW stats just to further increase their competition??

Human units already have 40+ MA when you factor in bonuses and Empire Greatswords aren't even technically that elite by human standards. They're somewhat upper mid tier in reality. Having 45 MA on top of BvI and BvL is just ridiculous and would require everything else to be buffed to compensate, which like I said, literally just inflates numbers for no reason. You'd have the same results now, just with bigger numbers.

VikingHuscal1066 said:

I remember Arch and a couple of other people talking about the TT rosters way back when Warhammer 1 had been announced and I remember them saying stuff like dwarf ranged infantry could see off most light cavalry with ease and how they were hard to beat in a face to face fight.

Being able to see off light cavalry in TT means literally nothing. Ranged units had the same stats as their army's melee units without exception. It's not like the Cav don't stand a chance though. Light cav typically had the same armor as Dwarf warriors, and they could reliably out damage them if they avoided a parry save. You standard Dark Rider unit could definitely beat your standard quarreler unit in melee.
Technically speaking Peasant bowmen could handle some light cav in a fight, so when are they going to get a buff?

If you can, you should actually take a look at TT stats. I'd be fine providing a copy of the Dwarf book. Dwarf stats right now are generally reasonable for what you got in TT.

Nitros14

They need to bring back the infantry mass changes from WH2. Should help Dwarfs a lot.

Warfield

VikingHuscal1066 said:

should feel like they have a higher quality to their units, as they're supposed to be constantly outnumbered by the other races they fight and they make better weapons and all that kind of stuff. But the Dwarfs need it more than anyone else.

Couldn't agree more.

The biggest issue with the Dwarfs in this regard (slowly more and more inferior infantry), was the explosion of armor piercing units in TWW2, and the HP debuff for Longbeards.

Now, it would be a monumental amount of work to adjust all the AP units CA put into the game, so I think it would just be easier to just give the Dwarfs more HP... or a more dramatic way to address this is to leave the armor stat as it is, and add a gromril armor stat that AP can't get through.

ammo2095

VikingHuscal1066 said:

GreenColoured said:

Buff? Hell no they're one of the stronger Factions.


Reworked and given more toys to play with to diversify what they can bring to the battlefield? Hell yes.


Dwarfs only suffer from the fact that GW more or less abandoned them and didn't give them all that much support, which is reflected in how relatively static their playstyle is.


Ask for more varied units to mix things up, don't buff already powerful units

I have to disagree dude.

The dwarf warriors should be one of the best "lower tier" units in the game, and shouldn't be getting mauled by goblins or skavenslaves.

And it's not that I want them to be given everything from other races, but rather excel at what they do.

I want to see them get some things like Rune Guardians as a high quality monstrous infantry unit, but their infantry could use a nice buff so they're actually a threat and don't get mauled by really low tier units.

Unless CA changes the way Minstrous Infantry works in the game, I don't think that would happen. Monsters don't blend in well to fight defensively, they're generally squishy and lose to infantry in prolonged melee engagement. Dwarfs would quite literally need a roster overhaul, to play more aggressively and since they're slow by design, it's just not likely.

Itharus

No they don't.

GreenColoured

VikingHuscal1066 said:

GreenColoured said:

Buff? Hell no they're one of the stronger Factions.


Reworked and given more toys to play with to diversify what they can bring to the battlefield? Hell yes.


Dwarfs only suffer from the fact that GW more or less abandoned them and didn't give them all that much support, which is reflected in how relatively static their playstyle is.


Ask for more varied units to mix things up, don't buff already powerful units

I have to disagree dude.

The dwarf warriors should be one of the best "lower tier" units in the game, and shouldn't be getting mauled by goblins or skavenslaves.

And it's not that I want them to be given everything from other races, but rather excel at what they do.

I want to see them get some things like Rune Guardians as a high quality monstrous infantry unit, but their infantry could use a nice buff so they're actually a threat and don't get mauled by really low tier units.

Come again?



Only ones getting mauled here are the skaven. Similar results against Goblins. And not to mention in both match-ups, the dwarfs were heavily outnumbered and still came out with a clear victory.

They already ARE one of the best low tier infantries in the game, they're comparable to Saurus.

Mr_Finley7

GreenColoured said:

VikingHuscal1066 said:

GreenColoured said:

Buff? Hell no they're one of the stronger Factions.


Reworked and given more toys to play with to diversify what they can bring to the battlefield? Hell yes.


Dwarfs only suffer from the fact that GW more or less abandoned them and didn't give them all that much support, which is reflected in how relatively static their playstyle is.


Ask for more varied units to mix things up, don't buff already powerful units

I have to disagree dude.

The dwarf warriors should be one of the best "lower tier" units in the game, and shouldn't be getting mauled by goblins or skavenslaves.

And it's not that I want them to be given everything from other races, but rather excel at what they do.

I want to see them get some things like Rune Guardians as a high quality monstrous infantry unit, but their infantry could use a nice buff so they're actually a threat and don't get mauled by really low tier units.

Come again?



Only ones getting mauled here are the skaven. Similar results against Goblins. And not to mention in both match-ups, the dwarfs were heavily outnumbered and still came out with a clear victory.

They already ARE one of the best low tier infantries in the game, they're comparable to Saurus.

This looks about right. Miners shouldn’t be chaff tho

manuelps

Zerkovich made a video testing low tier infantry, though he didn't include saurus warriors.

manuelps

And the link if someonbe wants to check personnally:

GreenColoured

Mr_Finley7 said:

GreenColoured said:

VikingHuscal1066 said:

GreenColoured said:

Buff? Hell no they're one of the stronger Factions.


Reworked and given more toys to play with to diversify what they can bring to the battlefield? Hell yes.


Dwarfs only suffer from the fact that GW more or less abandoned them and didn't give them all that much support, which is reflected in how relatively static their playstyle is.


Ask for more varied units to mix things up, don't buff already powerful units

I have to disagree dude.

The dwarf warriors should be one of the best "lower tier" units in the game, and shouldn't be getting mauled by goblins or skavenslaves.

And it's not that I want them to be given everything from other races, but rather excel at what they do.

I want to see them get some things like Rune Guardians as a high quality monstrous infantry unit, but their infantry could use a nice buff so they're actually a threat and don't get mauled by really low tier units.

Come again?



Only ones getting mauled here are the skaven. Similar results against Goblins. And not to mention in both match-ups, the dwarfs were heavily outnumbered and still came out with a clear victory.

They already ARE one of the best low tier infantries in the game, they're comparable to Saurus.

This looks about right. Miners shouldn’t be chaff tho

You have absolutely no idea how many threads I've started complaining about White Lions, Miners, and Sisters of Slaughter being butchered in their adaptation in this game.


...and how many time I've had to explain why Miners are supposed to be more elite than basic Dwarf Warriors as they're literally the Warriors plus many more different toys to bring along. This game gave people this weird assumption that Miners are somehow supposed to be weaker than Warriors just because CA botched their implementation.

GreenColoured

manuelps said:

And the link if someonbe wants to check personnally:

Well, yeah of course he didn't include Saurus. Saurus are closer to mid-tier infantry.


Granted it's all completely relative. Empire and Tomb King elite infantry for instance are closer to mid-tier for other factions. When an infantry is "elite", it's referring to their place within their own armies.

VikingHuscal1066

aMint1 said:

Dwarfs already do what they do really well. They don't need buffs to be able to do it.

Well, if that was the case, I wouldn't be making this thread now would I?

Again, it's not that I want the dwarf warrior units to destroy stuff like chaos chosen like they're nothing, but they should certainly be able to see off low tier crap like skaven clanrats and goblins without getting mauled in the process.

VikingHuscal1066

boosykes said:

I understand that it's a game first and all that.

And I don't mean to start to sound like a broken record, but I really don't think giving the dwarf infantry a little buff in their melee stats would unbalanced the game as much as you think. I just want their main line units to be able to actually throw a punch as it were back at their enemies rather than only being able to take hits.

I mean, I do think that if you just raise their stats too much, that that could be broken, but giving the dwarf warriors at least 30 MA instead of that pathetic 22 would actually make them a fair bit stronger without making them overpowered.

And I think that their ranged infantry could stand to have a little bit of a MA and MD buff, at least the great weapon variants, as they have great weapons.