How many Chaos Daemons starting positions outside Chaos Wastes climates?

bli-nk#6314

Starting a Tzeentch Daemon in Cathay, Lustria, or Chaos Dwarf territories might have more lore support but for game variety should most Chaos Daemons begin in/near the Chaos Wastes both for climate reasons and lore?

That would mean mostly near the north and south poles.

What Daemons would make the most sense to have starting positions in the middle of the map?

Arabyan magic supposely rests on Daemons and replacing some of the Bretonnians there would be a nice change.

Chaos Dwarfs try to control Daemons and one could have easily brroken its bonds and invited its kin in a magical accident.

The Vortex is a fount of winds of magic and Daemons starting nearby would be interesting, especially Slaanesh or Tzeentch vs HE.

Where else should Chaos Daemons get starting positions outside the Chaos Wastes?

Goatforce#6625

Well IE will likely have the Southern Chaos Wastes. But other than that it is pretty much confirmed from a datamine that N'Kari starts in Ulthuan.

OdTengri#8235

Ichon said:

Starting a Tzeentch Daemon in Cathay, Lustria, or Chaos Dwarf territories might have more lore support but for game variety should most Chaos Daemons begin in/near the Chaos Wastes both for climate reasons and lore?

Game play trumps lore, Chaos should have all the diverse campaign start options that other factions do.

Goatforce#6625

OdTengri said:

Ichon said:

Starting a Tzeentch Daemon in Cathay, Lustria, or Chaos Dwarf territories might have more lore support but for game variety should most Chaos Daemons begin in/near the Chaos Wastes both for climate reasons and lore?

Game play trumps lore, Chaos should have all the diverse campaign start options that other factions do.

Also wasn't one of Lustria's Temple Cities turned into a chaos rift or something? Personally think Tzeentch and/or Nurgle having a start in or near to Lustria would be pretty cool at least eventually (for example Epidemious starting in the Southern Chaos Waste just below Lustria or something).

OdTengri#8235

Goatforce said:

OdTengri said:

Ichon said:

Starting a Tzeentch Daemon in Cathay, Lustria, or Chaos Dwarf territories might have more lore support but for game variety should most Chaos Daemons begin in/near the Chaos Wastes both for climate reasons and lore?

Game play trumps lore, Chaos should have all the diverse campaign start options that other factions do.

Also wasn't one of Lustria's Temple Cities turned into a chaos rift or something? Personally think Tzeentch and/or Nurgle having a start in or near to Lustria would be pretty cool at least eventually (for example Epidemious starting in the Southern Chaos Waste just below Lustria or something).

Yes, to the Temple City. I'm sure there are other examples of Loreful outside of the Chaos Wastes locations, those should get preference in consideration but at the end of the Day Khatep never visited Baja in the lore but it makes for a better video game.

Ironhawk97#2562

Some of the mortal champions feasibly could. Festus being in the brass keep would be a prime example, and I don't see why the likes of Valkia, Aekold or Egrimm would need to either.

Be'lakor will *probably* be on Albion. As far as daemons and daemon Princes go, he's probably going to be the only exception.

Daemon Prince really shouldn't be in Norsca, in my opinion. Not because of lore or anything, but because it throttles dlc options for Norsca, which are all but certainly coming sooner or later. His start position in RoC really seems to be just to keep him away from Skarbrand and Kugath as imminent threats because just inside the chaos Wastes would've made more thematic sense than right in the heart of Norsca, and since his character is basically a sandbox, they could easily drop him in the southern wastes for IE if they want to.

Nazjax#2857

The vortex is mostly blocking the chaos gates in southern and northern chaos wastes !

I don't think it's logic that demons spawn from there.

Slaanesh demons could maybe has a place but afterall they are more linked to Druchii than Asur, since even Nagarythe of tooday hate demons.

bli-nk#6314

Nazjax said:

The vortex is mostly blocking the chaos gates in southern and northern chaos wastes !

I don't think it's logic that demons spawn from there.

Slaanesh demons could maybe has a place but afterall they are more linked to Druchii than Asur, since even Nagarythe of tooday hate demons.

It might have changed but I remember the old army books talking about the mutated beasts and minor daemons that appeared out of the Vortex regularly and one of the reason more dragons are on Ulthuan than anywhere else was due to the magic leaking from the Vortex.

The Vortex is a controlled release so the world is not torn apart by the North and South Chaos portals... unless that was retconned. I only paid attention to Warhammer for a couple of years in the early 2000s and then with the release of WH2.

I forgot about the Mortal Champions of the Chaos gods- will they be getting a different climate or will all Daemons require corruption + preferrable climates for max growth?

lcmiracle#6727

N'Kari invaded Ulthuan in 2173 I.C. when several Waystones on Mt, Antorec was uprooted by a magical storm, and his rampaged went over a month until he almost caught his prey at the Shrine of Asuryan. The story basically said that the uprooted Waystone and the presence of N'Kari sustained the lesser Daemons during the whole thing, as when N'Kari was blasted by Teclis and into the Flame of Asuryan, the other Daemons were also banished across Ulthuan. So N'Kari starting on Ulthuan only requires a little bit of foul ritual or a conveniently placed storm of magic.

Warhammer Armies: High Elves. 8th Edition. Page 28.



Warhammer Armies: Daemons of Chaos. 7th Edition. Page 24-26.

Other Fantasy Daemons of note that went on long rampages outside of the Chaos Wastes are: Bloodthirster Gho'rr who rampaged across the Badlands and built a skull throne upon a skull tower with skulls he had taken, then he was smashed by a brass skull thrown unto his head by Khorne. (Daemons of Chaos 8th Edition page 21. 2201 I.C.)

Most of the in-game scenarios would be easy to explain, a coven of cultists performing some sort of ritual that brought forth a Greater Daemon or a Herald, and the lesser Daemons are sustained by some sort of unobtainium or rituals from their rampages etc. Also, if I recall correctly, Ursun's roar after he got Godslayer'd supposedly destabilised the vortex or something? Hence the sudden increase in Chaos activities as well as leading to WH2's vortex race.

lcmiracle#6727

Also, come to think of it, Bretonnia toppled Waystones too, in 1001 I.C. when the new King Louis the Rash order a great Waystone uprooted from his winter palace, which led to Daemons ravaging Montfort and Parravon. (Warhammer Armies: Daemons of Chaos. 7th Edition. Page 27.). And they got bump by Kairos twice, the first time they just sort of descended upon Montfort (Daemons of Chaos 7th Edition page 29). The second time Kairos was sent off on an easter egg hunt and sacked Bretonnian tombs for a year. I think the point is that Tzeentch was Tzeentchin' and had Kairos collect magical artefacts from across Bretonnia so he could get a mutual kill against Ku'gath in Mousillon, just so all the stuffs he had stolen would be left to Mallobaude. (Daemons of Chaos 8th Edition page 23)

N'Kari's revenge was also not the last time Daemons invaded Ulthuan from destroyed Waystones. 2333 I.C. was another, this time on the Annulii mountains and Saphery was the mark this time. (Warhammer Armies: High Elves. 8th Edition. Page 29.)

Captain_Rex#1635

3-4 for each god.

Maedrethnir#1968

lcmiracle said:

Also, come to think of it, Bretonnia toppled Waystones too, in 1001 I.C. when the new King Louis the Rash order a great Waystone uprooted from his winter palace, which led to Daemons ravaging Montfort and Parravon. (Warhammer Armies: Daemons of Chaos. 7th Edition. Page 27.). And they got bump by Kairos twice, the first time they just sort of descended upon Montfort (Daemons of Chaos 7th Edition page 29). The second time Kairos was sent off on an easter egg hunt and sacked Bretonnian tombs for a year. I think the point is that Tzeentch was Tzeentchin' and had Kairos collect magical artefacts from across Bretonnia so he could get a mutual kill against Ku'gath in Mousillon, just so all the stuffs he had stolen would be left to Mallobaude. (Daemons of Chaos 8th Edition page 23)

N'Kari's revenge was also not the last time Daemons invaded Ulthuan from destroyed Waystones. 2333 I.C. was another, this time on the Annulii mountains and Saphery was the mark this time. (Warhammer Armies: High Elves. 8th Edition. Page 29.)

They came down the mountain during the Twilight's Tide.

Nitros14#7973

As few as possible.

They should mostly start in the Chaos Wastes and come down later in the game.

Obviously N'kari will be in Ulthuan.

DarthEnderX-#6513

MonoCW LLs: All 4 in the NCW.

MonoGD LLs: 2 in NCW, 2 in SCW.

MonoHerald LLs: 2 in NCW, 2 in SCW.

God Slayer: NCW

Belakor: SCW in his old fortress.

Captain_Rex#1635

I would also like to remind op that we don’t have Monodaemons but Monogods.

LennoxPoodle#1380

The GDs all obviously sit in the waste (with N'kari obviously being most likely moved to Ulthuan. It's a shame, I would've liked to see him in the wastes directly north of the Naggaroth/Ulthuan divide).
For the mortals probably about to come with the 4 champions, positions close to (not necessarily within) Norsca and the wastes appear appropriate. The mortals usually are the vanguard of the Daemons after all. Brass keep for Festus is likely anyway.
For totally far off locations the Heralds the truly remote places might be the way to go. Their lore revolves around going specific places and collecting things after all. (Well the Masque randomly appears at parties, but it's similar) Maybe Epidemius in Lustria (catalogueing those tropical diseases), Masque in Araby (rich merchants, belly dancers, harems,...), Skull Taker in the Mountains of Mourne (Ogre Skulls) and the Scribes in Nehekhara or southern Cathay (both have their own magic)?

#324448

I think there are some ample opportunities for Chaos characters to start outside the Chaos Wastes, but I urge CA to be cautious. Chaos characters will naturally generate corruption of their type, and having too many outside of their homeland could result in the entire world being covered in Chaos corruption in the first 20-30 turns, as we generally see in Warhammer 3 campaigns where the rifts cause this to happen. I don't think it'll be a problem though if these are limited only to some of the future LLs. Otherwise, I think most Chaos campaigns should start in the Wastes, and involve fighting your rival brethren before marching south to destroy the world.

There are definitely some loreful starting positions for Chaos characters outside of the Northern and Southern Wastes.

-N'Kari is suggested to start in Ulthuan according to dataminers. This has precedence in the lore as s/he has attacked the donut multiple times in the past.
-Xahutec, a city in Lustria, had a Chaos portal open up within it during the Great Catastrophe, and may still host a Daemonic presence.
-The Brass Keep is a Chaos fortress in the heart of the Empire.

There are other locations where Chaos presence would be appropriate.

-Araby is said to have many cults dedicated to Tzeentch. In the absence of an Araby faction, a Tzeentch character could potentially start here.
-I believe tribes of Kurgan roam the Darklands as well as the Chaos Wastes.

bli-nk#6314

The corruption thing isn't too bad since all corruption types can exist in one province but I think some areas are likely to get pretty crazy early on especially with LLs that stick around rather than 40 factions disappearing on the current WH3 map in the first 25 turns.

Alchimist#7739

Tlax in Lustria would be a good starting location for a daemon character.

From the wiki:

Tlax, called with good reason the City of Ghosts, is quite literally haunted by the far distant past. It is as if the calamitous events of the Great Catastrophe were etched into the very air itself, to be replayed, over and over, at the alignment of particular constellations. At certain times of day or night, spectral forms battle one another for possession of the city — mighty, ghostly Saurus marching to war against hordes of leering Daemons. Those treasure hunters who have witnessed such sights have fled screaming into the jungle, their sanity shattered, most falling prey to Lustria's many deadly threats long before reaching the safety of the coast.

bli-nk#6314

Alchimist said:

Tlax in Lustria would be a good starting location for a daemon character.

From the wiki:

Tlax, called with good reason the City of Ghosts, is quite literally haunted by the far distant past. It is as if the calamitous events of the Great Catastrophe were etched into the very air itself, to be replayed, over and over, at the alignment of particular constellations. At certain times of day or night, spectral forms battle one another for possession of the city — mighty, ghostly Saurus marching to war against hordes of leering Daemons. Those treasure hunters who have witnessed such sights have fled screaming into the jungle, their sanity shattered, most falling prey to Lustria's many deadly threats long before reaching the safety of the coast.

Are there ethereal daemons? I have always wondered why there aren't since daemons literally are formed from the winds of magic and their bodies disappear when their form is banished. Could be a whole new mechanic for a couple of Daemons LLs- Dwarfs already have anscestral ghosts, seems daemons would be even more apt.

The main issue is that most climates are inhospitable for Daemons currently, CA could make certain starts for Daemons enjoying different climates but that just gets weird and extremely gamey.

The best solution is that Daemon habitability depend on corruption levels rather than climate. So every region starts out inhospitable but eventually as the Monogods prefered corruption rises they get increased income/replenishment/growth.

Undivided have their own form of corruption but also don't suffer from the Monogods corruption but still don't like Untainted so it would work for them as well, just a small advantage of being able to be near other Monogods corruption without any issues.

Then Daemons can start literally anywhere but have to actively work to corrupt the lands around them to be able to control them which makes far more sense than razing everything.

Sylvania currently already portrays this idea where so much Shyish magic has socked into the bedrock from centuries and millenia of necromancy that plants struggle to grow and other winds of magic don't flow as readily.

Nazjax#2857

MisterSquid said:

I think there are some ample opportunities for Chaos characters to start outside the Chaos Wastes, but I urge CA to be cautious. Chaos characters will naturally generate corruption of their type, and having too many outside of their homeland could result in the entire world being covered in Chaos corruption in the first 20-30 turns, as we generally see in Warhammer 3 campaigns where the rifts cause this to happen. I don't think it'll be a problem though if these are limited only to some of the future LLs. Otherwise, I think most Chaos campaigns should start in the Wastes, and involve fighting your rival brethren before marching south to destroy the world.

There are definitely some loreful starting positions for Chaos characters outside of the Northern and Southern Wastes.

-N'Kari is suggested to start in Ulthuan according to dataminers. This has precedence in the lore as s/he has attacked the donut multiple times in the past.
-Xahutec, a city in Lustria, had a Chaos portal open up within it during the Great Catastrophe, and may still host a Daemonic presence.
-The Brass Keep is a Chaos fortress in the heart of the Empire.

There are other locations where Chaos presence would be appropriate.

-Araby is said to have many cults dedicated to Tzeentch. In the absence of an Araby faction, a Tzeentch character could potentially start here.
-I believe tribes of Kurgan roam the Darklands as well as the Chaos Wastes.

I hope N'kari don't start on the Donut because you will never fight him if he is AI.

I prefer her/him on the Ruinous palace just in the north of Ulthuan... In the actual chaos wastes !